just pulled the cam out of my bbc .it ate a lobe (# 8 exhaust) lifter ground concave, and lobe almost round. i also had three other lifter that were mushroomed. had to tap them down thru, and remove thru the cam tunnel. what caused this ? the cam lobes also looked like they had a weird pattern on them. not scared up , but kinda darker in spots on the back edges of the lobes. this was a hyd flat cam.

Lots of problems with flat tappet cams going flat due to oil nowadays lacking necessary additives.Get a roller cam.
Guy

Can you share more info as to how it was broke in, what oil used, how many miles, cam, springs, etc.?

Did you check for coil bind?

Tom

rotella 15/40 was used to break in, prelubed before start. had a rocker come loose during break in, blowed a radiator hose during break in. had to shut it down twice. everything seemed ok though. changed oil,and used rotella again. then used cam 2 15/40 oil for the next change. cam was a custom reed hyd 248/256 @ 50 602 / 622 lift 110 lobe sep . springs were on my canfield heads when i bought new. i was told good to 650 lift. my build sheet says 140 at seat, installed height 1.915 . nothing wrote down for coil bind.i'm sure it was checked though. engine had around 5,000 to 7,000 miles on it. i broke the speedometer from going to fast ,so mileage is a guess. i had my valves adjusted last fall. shortly after it got cold out. thats about the time my car started breaking up. i thought maybe it was the valve adjustment was bad. between that ,and no choke on the carb and the cold weather. so i had another guy set the valves when it was running. after that i had a rocker come loose, fixed that, but valvetrain was noisy. ate the cam on the way to have them reset again. my builder had em adjusted to 0 lash. both times after that they were preloaded 1/2 turn. i reall don't think the three mushroomed lifters had anything in common with the one that was ate up, but thats why i'm asking ?'s is it possible my cam was "walking" ? i don't know whether to blame this on the guys who reset my valves or if i was losing a lobe to begin with. car ran really well for a while. drove it a good bit last year. only drove it to, and from the shop since the first readjustment. sorry so long, but thats it in a nutshell.

Tim,

It will be hard to say who is to blame as this subject has so many variables. The biggest thing is to prevent this from happening again. You run a pretty stout cam and that only complicates the problem. Even if you run a roller cam with that much lift you will need strong springs. I would get the lifters and springs from the cam supplier so it matches and when breaking in the new cam I like to remove the secondary spring and keep rpm's under 3000 rpm. I also concerned about the rockers coming loose. What type of rockers are they? are you using poly locks and a stud girdle? Has anyone check valve train geometry?

Bill

yes it's the too many variables part that tears me up. i'm not even sure that when it started breaking up if it was the cam at all. the last two times my valves were adjusted it was by two different guys. i trust the first guy, as he has built acouple of sbc's for me. the second guy has been running self built bbc's along time. i remember him running a straight axle box nova with a tunnel ram sticking thru the hood when i was a teenager ( long time ago ). with that said i also trust him . i'm using crane gold roller rockers with poly locks , no girdle. at break in i varied the rpms between 2000 and 2500. geometry was good if your refering to rocker arm on the valve tip. i don't know if the adjustment came loose because it was eating a lobe or if was eating the lobe because the adjustment came loose. what mushrooms a lifter though ? the lifter on the worn lobe looks like lifter that was on a eaten lobe ,but i was wondering why the were three others mushroomed ? i dunno.

Sounded like coil bind on the first description, and after hearing that the valves were adjusted then the problem happened makes me think that is what it is. You say that you have .650 lift but if that is .650 to zero gap on the coils then you should not run a cam with more then a .590 lift. Don't use cam card specs but measure the lift at the valve since rocker ratio will change it. These numbers are for zero lash. I would bet that you were originally adjusted very close to binding and when you had the valves readjusted they bound up.

All the missing metal from the cam and lifters are now floating somewhere in your motor. It should be broken down and inspected. Have the builder physically check the clearances during assembly.

Also, if the poly locks backed off check to see that the studs are machined flat on top.

Tom

I tend to go along with the coil bind too, because of the mushrooming problem...thats caused because the valve train just cant move anymore, and that would be a commom problem...that, or the retainer hitting the valve guide top. Either way, it sucks....time for a tear down and do it again....been there too. As far as the guy who has built many engines before?? You can only take that so far. I know a guy near me who has about 40 years experience building hotrods...he has quite a few engines in cars around here that are doing OK....but I have seen his work up close, and I have been in his shop. He will never touch anything that goes in my car....cob jobs everything....his most frequently used tool is a die grinder, he thinks he can do anything with it. There is more to tell, but all Im trying to say is you cant base your trust on a few stories from the past. At any rate, good luck with the re-build, and keep us posted.

well i believe we figured it out, when i had my crank turned my thrust clearance was off. crank was turned to 20/20 , my thrust had to much clearance so the builder had to sand a 30 over bearing to get my clearance to .005. i think he sanded it away from the front too much putting my crank to far forward in the block. i think this was pulling my cam forward. the mushrooming definitly came from the lifters hitting the cam journals. the journals are worn to a sharp edge. the cam bearings have some scouring right on the edges where the cam journals nicked them. the cam lobe thats ate up is ate up on the back side more than the front side thus pushing it even more forward. this is all deducted from the wear on the parts, but i see no other way for it to look like this. opinions ?

Did you by chance take any pictures? I cant imagine a crank pulling a cam forward far enough to cause that kind of damage....but who knows??

I'd venture to say, that the "loosening" rocker arms, were actually cam lobes going away.

sorry no pics, i don't have a digital camera. i would like to post some though,so you guys could see what i have here. crank is a factory forged 7416 casting by the way. it was 10/10 when i took it to the shop. i didn't think it needed anything. a polish if anything.he said it needed turned. my builder doesn't turn cranks anymore. he sold his setup to another guy. i gotta wonder if he wasn't just drumming up work for the new guy here.and i gotta wonder if he was up to the task. my buddy had a 406 built by my builder . his crank was turned and had to be fitted the same way mine was. who do you trust ? i guess i might as well figure on another crank and a balance job. back to the drawing board i guess.

I must be misunderstanding something. The amount of under cut on the crank doesn't determine thrust. If it was cut 20/20 then there is no way to use a 30 under bearing. The crank end play could not cause the cam journals to hit the lifters. The connecting rods would not allow that much travel and the counter weights would be hitting the mains. Even if the crank was able to pull the cam that far forward, I think you would notice the timing gear sticking out a hole in the timing cover. If the crank traveled that far you would have heard more sounds then noisy lifters.

Hi Tim,
First thing you need to know is what the open pressure is on the springs.
If they are rated at .650" lift & actually had a measured .050" to bind as you are running .600 this is in no way a problem.
I run springs closer than .050" to bind a lot but I do check them all as book specs can be off a bunch.
This includes both bind & pressure numbers.
140 on the seat is not an issue but with .600 lift you may have had too much open pressure especially at break-in
I did not see where you answered the question as to weather you removed the inners on break-in?
If not I would bet this started when you started the engine the very first time.

The damage was not caused from the cam "walking" flat cams don't walk, they are "pulled" into the block by the taper of the lobes & the direction of load from the cam gear.

The mushrooming is not unusual at all when the lifters stop rotating, it is very common with flat lobes.

As to what actually caused the damage, no one can tell you but my money is on too much open pressure & or break-in with too much spring.

What oil did you change to after Rotella?

i did not remove the inner springs for break in. the " good to 650 lift " is what i was told from the vender that sold my heads to me. my builder left the coil bind spec blank on my build sheet. reed calls for 135 seat pressure for this cam. 248/256 @50 602/622 lift. the only other spec i have for the springs is 1.915 installed height .i used cam II 15 /40 for the second oil change. i thought about this yesterday ,and i guess the lifters could have been worn by something else.to the point of them mushrooming enough to hit the cam journals. there were 5 lifters that were mushroomed. three to the point of having to tap them down into the cam tunnel to remove them. what do you think about my crank being to far forward as stated ? i really don't know how to check this, but if you put a feeler gauge between the main caps and the throws theres definitly more room between the front of the cap and the throw. thanks tim

The crank has nothing to do with the cam/lifter failure.Sounds like too much pressure on the seat.Might have been a different story if you left the inner valve springs out during break in
This is a flat tappet hydraulic,correct ?

The crank has nothing to do with the cam/lifter failure.Sounds like too much pressure on the seat.Might have been a different story if you left the inner valve springs out during break in
This is a flat tappet hydraulic,correct ? The seat pressure has nothing to do with anything but keeping the valves closed and not letting them bounce and break! Fairly strong seat pressure is a good thing, within reason. Like Wolfy said though the open pressure was probably too high. From what i read a cam starts to go flat in the first five minutes of run time after being fired up. The whole engine needs to be torn down again and rebuilt by someone who is very careful, not the hack who did it this time.

It all comes down to the procedure used while breaking in the "stick", end of discussion!

We are presently averaging 3 units per week on "fire-ups" in the dyno room ALL with flat-tappet cams, hydraulics AND solids combined, and have NOT lost one single lobe in the past. That's 48 lobes per week for 50 weeks per year. That's 2400+ lobes per year.

Many up here MUST sit back and realize you should NOT be starting your own units and attempting proper "lobe-seating" (break-in).

I use "straight" 20-50 Cam 2, Valvoline 20-50 "Race", Pennzoil 20-50 AND 25-50, and many other brands. I have units racing with Fram filters and other brands of filters here as well, again, no failures.

I get to speak to many customers who DO fire their own units and I hear the frustration in their voices over the phone, "I can't get this thing started, what should I do now"! My first advice is to remove the cam and change it and then give the car to someone with more experience.

It's "etched-in-stone" in G.M.'s earlier performance catalogs that cams using higher-than-normal" spring pressures MUST be "fired" with the inner springs removed. In the dyno room we keep "single" springs for every possible cam dimension to get through the break-in period and then change to the correct, final springs! We've done this for as long as I can remember.

(Add) I just want to add this here with respect to my personal customers and the "type" of oil they want to run! I tell them "DO NOT CALL ME if you run ANY synthetic oil and have ANY type of issues, period. DO NOT CALL". The units I build and deliver all run "conventional" oil. My own belief is the
"synthetics" are just too slippery.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I would make this recommendation here, if you attempt to run ANY dual spring setup, specifically with respect to the BB's, AND do not do this daily, making a living at it, you should let someone with more experience do the initial firing! You MUST know your own limitations. The simple fact that you MAY not know how to fire a "unit" should not take away or subtract from your knowledge!!! It is NOT as easy as many lead you to believe. Much can and usually does go wrong. Weak batteries, no spark, no gas, wrong firing order, distributor in wrong, "forgot to hook up a wire", the list just goes on and on!

Double P.S. Pay attention here, MOST times it appears from what I read up here, it's almost always a BB only issue! Seems only an "occasional" SB cam going "south". This tells me a whole lot!

i did not remove the inner springs for break in. the " good to 650 lift " is what i was told from the vender that sold my heads to me. my builder left the coil bind spec blank on my build sheet. reed calls for 135 seat pressure for this cam. 248/256 @50 602/622 lift. the only other spec i have for the springs is 1.915 installed height .i used cam II 15 /40 for the second oil change. i thought about this yesterday ,and i guess the lifters could have been worn by something else.to the point of them mushrooming enough to hit the cam journals. there were 5 lifters that were mushroomed. three to the point of having to tap them down into the cam tunnel to remove them. what do you think about my crank being to far forward as stated ? i really don't know how to check this, but if you put a feeler gauge between the main caps and the throws theres definitly more room between the front of the cap and the throw. thanks tim
=
Tim,
I have to go with Gary here,,

I already answered about the best I can.
Stop looking for somewhere to place blame, it could be as simple as the cam was not ground properly but I doubt it.

In my opinion if you did not remove the inner springs & have no clue what the open pressures are or were you started this issue the day you turned the key.

I answered your question about the mushrooming, it is what happens when the lifters stop turning & is the damage seen.
It can be caused from any of the following:
IMPROPER BREAK-IN
Coil bind
Too much pressure,
Retainer to seal interference
Too little lifter to bore clearance
Improper bore finish
And a host of other issues but these are the major ones.

The crank has nothing to do with this.
You did not break in the cam properly
You don't know your pressures
You do not know your actual coil bind number
You do not know what the installed height is except for what whoever sold you the heads stated.
If you bought these mail order vendor you are insane to trust what is advertised or stated on some piece of paper unless they came from a reputable shop.
Hell, even Brodix installs a great big red tag on every head that tells you to check the springs for your application.
You are just assuming what you were told is correct & were never even told open pressure AT YOUR NET LIFT or coil bind.

Tim,
Just learn from the "experience". As mentioned you need to check all the details. Not knowing (measuring) the coil bind, and spring pressures is a huge deal. People get away with mistakes on milder cams but, the more radical you get the more critical things become. The biggest issue is probably that you didn't remove the inner spring or use break in rocker arms. It's an expensive lesson but, hang in there and learn from it.

Gary,
Many Many people are capable of building an engine and or breaking in a cam. You don't need a dyno to do that. I have never EVER had a cam go flat on me. I do agree you need to know what you're doing but, to say everyone needs to run to a pro for minor things (such as cam break in) isn't true. There are all levels of car crafters/hobbyists out there, knowing what level you're at is important. You learn by doing, not by paying people to do it for you.

well, all i can say is i thought i had the break in covered. we have broke in sbc's with double springs without losing the cam, and i thought we would be ok here. i'm sure my springs were checked to make sure they would work. the installed height and seat pressure was measured by the builder not the vender i bought them from. changing springs after break in on the motor isn't something i wanted to do. i am not a mechanic , my work is done in my buddys garage. he is a mechanic, turns wrenchs for a living and works out of his garage evenings and weekends. i'm kinda at his mercy, and i know i couldn't get him to switch springs after breakin . are the break in rocker arms a good idea ? would they change pushrod length ? would 1.5 rockers be enough reduction or are they less than that ? i fell like i'm back to sqaure one again. many thanks for the answers . tim

Tim,
Just learn from the "experience". As mentioned you need to check all the details. Not knowing (measuring) the coil bind, and spring pressures is a huge deal. People get away with mistakes on milder cams but, the more radical you get the more critical things become. The biggest issue is probably that you didn't remove the inner spring or use break in rocker arms. It's an expensive lesson but, hang in there and learn from it.

Gary,
Many Many people are capable of building an engine and or breaking in a cam. You don't need a dyno to do that. I have never EVER had a cam go flat on me. I do agree you need to know what you're doing but, to say everyone needs to run to a pro for minor things (such as cam break in) isn't true. There are all levels of car crafters/hobbyists out there, knowing what level you're at is important. You learn by doing, not by paying people to do it for you.

well, all i can say is i thought i had the break in covered. we have broke in sbc's with double springs without losing the cam, and i thought we would be ok here. i'm sure my springs were checked to make sure they would work. the installed height and seat pressure was measured by the builder not the vender i bought them from. changing springs after break in on the motor isn't something i wanted to do. i am not a mechanic , my work is done in my buddys garage. he is a mechanic, turns wrenchs for a living and works out of his garage evenings and weekends. i'm kinda at his mercy, and i know i couldn't get him to switch springs after breakin . are the break in rocker arms a good idea ? would they change pushrod length ? would 1.5 rockers be enough reduction or are they less than that ? i fell like i'm back to sqaure one again. many thanks for the answers . tim


Hi Royce, never said "everyone" but in hindsight for Tim, this was the correct recommendation. Call a "Pro"!! Even he agrees at this point. He's actually in the middle of the proverbial "catastrophe" today. Much wasted time AND money!!! Not everyone has the funds available to get past this with no pain!

Even an "all-out Pro", getting involved in this initial fire-up, would have made some changes to the procedure. With all the "not-knowing" even he wouldn't risk this "start", believe me! A "Pro" would have removed the springs and double-checked all the specs. We do much testing for others, we try to watch for potential problems before-hand, BUT, you can only try to warn the customer. After that's been discussed, they're simply "on their own" and must live with the consequences.

(Add) Tim:much of this information about breaking-in cams is ALL OVER the
"web". I do notice it's kind of a "pet-peeve" with Scott (SWHEATON). up here. He usually posts some excellent advice on this forum! And I do realize you're in a "spot" at the moment, but you will get past it!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Royce, from your statement "I have never EVER had a cam go flat on me." I would have to assume there's absolutely no issues between cam break-in and available oils in the marketplace OR you use only roller cams? By the way, I agree, and still DO NOT buy into the zinc/oil theories kicking around. There are plenty of "good" oils available yet. You must know which ones to use. DO NOT run to discount houses and expect to get this oil for .89 a quart. It's not gonna happen!

Tim, on a SBC 350 motor, I had #6 exhaust lobe on a flat tappet hydraulic cam wear down to completely being round and the engine was popping out of the carburetor whenever I took it past idle. I had 50,000 miles on the cam, so it had nothing to do with break in. What I had also noticed is that the cheap factory stock type hamonic balancer that I had on the motor had come apart. It was the two piece type that is bonded together, and the two pieces came apart, with the outer piece having spun around 180 degrees. I noticed it only because as soon as the engine began popping like that, I went home and pur a timing light on it, and with the engine idling, the timing mark was no wherte to be found, because it was about a full 180 degrees on the other side. I knew that the engine couldn't have even run if the timing was that far off, so I shut it down and took a look at the harmonic dampner, and sure enough it had come apart.

About a week before that, the mechanical fuel pump that I had on the engine had a spring sticking right out of the top of it. The pressure spring punched a hole right through the top of the housing! I never saw anything like it. The pump wasn't even leaking, and it was still working fine. What I concluded from all of this is that once the vibration dampener bit the dust, the vibration from the crankshaft that usually gets dampened by the balancer traveled across the timing gears and the timing chain, and went through the camshaft. Remember that the mechanical fuel pump arm runs off of the camshaft via a pushrod.

Harmonics can do a lot of damage if they're not dampened. I replaced the fuel pump, the camshaft, and the vibration dampener, and I never had a problem again. I'm not sure if this might be your problem, but I'd check that vibration damper if I were you. ;)

Quoting Gary:"It's "etched-in-stone" in G.M.'s earlier performance catalogs that cams using higher-than-normal" spring pressures MUST be "fired" with the inner springs removed. In the dyno room we keep "single" springs for every possible cam dimension to get through the break-in period and then change to the correct, final springs! We've done this for as long as I can remember."

It is my opinion that it is worth the money to buy a set of weak springs for break-in. Heavy springs will ruin a new cam. For a castiron surface to wear well, it must first be "work hardened". The initial sliding at low surface pressure allows the hardening to take place without wearing away the lobe. After it has reached the point where hardening has taken place, the surface will be glass hard and have very low friction.

As Gary said, initial fire up must be quick to avoid wiping the prelube off the cam. Weak springs help there, too.

One other item to check is lifter crown. A flat tappet should not be FLAT. Lifters need crown to spin. Proper crown is around .0025" meaning the lifter should be .0025" higher in the center then on the edges. This should be checked with a straight edge. The crowning on the face allows the lifter to rotate properly, without it the lifter will eat the cam. Since lifter materials are 2 to 6 pointes higher on the Rockwell C scale then cams the lifter will start to peal the lobe. Friction then takes over and deteriation of the lobe and lifter start. The cam gets the blame as a soft core but it is not the culprit.

Just one other way you can loose a flat tappet.

Gary,
No I do not use roller cams. The only cam problem I ever had was with a solid roller on the street. I prefer solid flat tappets for my street cars. I wasn't trying to pick at you but, the poor guy just lost his engine and everyone was hammering on him. It's obvious he didn't know any better and did what he thought was best. It also looks like he did have a "pro" involved. To me a couple of the replies looked a bit harsh and not very helpful. This forum is great because people help each other and beginners can gain very helpful knowledge. Telling him he doesn't know what he's doing and to take it to a pro is not exactly encouraging. Maybe I read to much into it and if so, sorry. I prefer a more positive approach.


I personally like to use break in rockers they are easier to change out after the cam break in. I also use GM EOS and straight 30wt oil for break in. Before I bought break in rockers I would remove the inner spring. It's really not rocket science to break in a cam, you just have to understand whats going on. Also pre-lubing the engine goes a long way in helping to prevent problems. An additional qt. of oil in the pan helps as well. Cam lube is there to keep the cam and lifters lubricated until the oil starts to flow and you get sling for the crank. If you don't pre-lbe the engine it just going to take that much longer before you get lube to the lifters which in the case of an engine not firung right away, pre lubing can save you.

While the engine was being assembled, did you rotate the cam by hand with the lifters in place to verify that they all would spin?

no matter how you slice it, it sucks . this engine was pre lubed, i used rotella for break in, it fired up in about two seconds . my pro misadjusted at least one rocker arm ,as it came loose after 5 mins . i have a good ati fluiddampner on it. i don't think thats the problem. i have to get my heads checked for the real spring specs. i think the guys were just trying to beat this in my head is all. i have to admit they had me feeling like the village idiot there for awhile. i 'm really having a hard time believing this came from my break in. it may be true, but as many times as this thing saw 6500 rpm in the 5-7500 miles it lived. i just can't believe it . i think if i never would have had to check,reset my valves i would still have a bbc that is in one piece. i guess maybe thats just wishfull thinking. signed, bummed out in pa.

While the engine was being assembled, did you rotate the cam by hand with the lifters in place to verify that they all would spin?Yeah but how many people really do that unless they assembled the engine themselves? It doesn't sound to me that he built the engine himself, so my point is, that most enthusiasts who have an engine built don't check things like that. I'm not knocking you if you're trying to be of help to him, but I don't think that we can blame him for not doing what you've asked about, because most guys aren't going to check things like that unless they built the engine themself.

no matter how you slice it, it sucks . this engine was pre lubed, i used rotella for break in, it fired up in about two seconds . my pro misadjusted at least one rocker arm ,as it came loose after 5 mins . i have a good ati fluiddampner on it. i don't think thats the problem. i have to get my heads checked for the real spring specs. i think the guys were just trying to beat this in my head is all. i have to admit they had me feeling like the village idiot there for awhile. i 'm really having a hard time believing this came from my break in. it may be true, but as many times as this thing saw 6500 rpm in the 5-7500 miles it lived. i just can't believe it . i think if i never would have had to check,reset my valves i would still have a bbc that is in one piece. i guess maybe thats just wishfull thinking. signed, bummed out in pa.


Hi Tim, it's alright to be bummed for a bit. Just DON'T quit. I really don't believe it was anyone's intention to make you feel like "the village idiot". Of this I'm certain.

What's tough sometimes on these forums, is to get the message through about how "fragile" a 500 HP, 750HP, 1000HP, etc. piece can really be. Contrary to what some say up here, it takes a fair amount of skill to get these units to their final destination, under the hood, with no issues. It's tough, believe me. I'm doing this for a very long time! I'm sure many others here will have to agree with that statement.

Take a short breather from the ordeal, regroup, and rip into it. I'll remind you what I said earlier, you'll get through it! I realize it's easy for some to say it's an experience, but it's costly and somewhat defeating no matter. I'd list what I think you'll be needing for the "repairs", but you're probably not ready for that tonight.

I do believe you could have gotten some better advice through the entire deal. And honestly, there's a tremendous amount of invaluable info right here at your fingertips and the keyboard. As much as is posted here, try to pay particular attention to the guy's like myself, Mike (Wolfplace), Bill K., and anyone up here that does this daily, every day, building units, and basically making a living from it all. The amount of knowledge contained up here could NEVER be learned in any type of school. I'll be the first to admit here I've picked up dozens of "tips" over the years just "hanging around" up here. I keep a folder handy on the computer filled with them.

Everyone up here knows quite a bit, BUT, nobody up here knows it all!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. If I failed to mention any of you guy's you under the "pay attention to the guy's like" statement, I do apologize. I'm well aware from reading these posts, like I said above, there's a lot of talent up here!

Double P.S. Tim, what happened to you is precisely the reason we've seen a dramatic increase over the last few years to the hydraulic-roller setups. I'm NOT recommending it, BUT, you can literally crank the unit for an hour and not hurt it (just make sure you have oil pressure), you can start it and leave it idle immediately, you can drive it and NOT work on it. Definitely my kind of unit!!!

ok, it's time to let this post die i guess. i just wanted to add my thanks one more time to everyone that replyed. i'm well aware that there's alot of engine guru's here. i asked mike to chime in on the subject. i look forward to hearing his take as well as the other engine builders input on any subject. these guys are the ones i count on to weed out fact from fiction. i really don't know which direction to go with my engine now. the added power of a solid roller sounds nice,but there seems to be a short life span on the lifters. i have not read up much on the hyd rollers, but them seem to tucker out by 6500 rpm. i choose a hyd flat cam so i would not have to worry with valve adjustment ( that worked out well huh ? ). anyway many thanks for the replys guys.

I thought to post one more quickie. Car Craft Magizine, Feburary 2007, has a good artical about breaking in your new cam starting page 44 and just rehashes what was said in this post and many others, for those who have to read it to believe it.