MARTINSR
Nov 8th, 03, 10:51 PM
Guys, with all the talk about POR-15, ZeroRust, Molasses for striping parts (God forbid) and all the other "home brews" I see on the forums, you really need to read the following article.
It comes down to this very simple FACT there are products specifically manufactured to do everything you could ever want to do on your car. There are companies who spend MILLIONS of dollars DEVELOPING these products. Why in the world would one of us think we could come up with something better in our garage on a saturday with our 12th grade education (me) that some lab technition with a masters degree in chemistry working in a ten million dollar lab couldn't do?
I have seen these labs, I had the phone number and would call these guys to get answers to problems, THEY KNOW THEIR STUFF!
They study products for months before it is released to the public with FULL INSTRUCTIONS on how to use it. They have done advanced weather testing, scratch tests, corrosion tests,etc. ALL done to insure that YOU will have the best possible outcome when you use it.
PPG, DuPont, Sherwin-Williams, etc. ALL make complete systems to do anything you could want on your car. If you need some "special" product to cover rust, well, than you are not repairing it properly. POR-15, or ZeroRust are very good products to do these "repairs" on rust. I understand, I use them too. Not every project "deserves" to be sandblasted or acid dipped to remove all the rust and then primed with a primer in the system of your top coat like PPG, DuPont or the like. In these cases POR or ZeroRust can be a life saver. I am not knocking these products, they just have to stay in their place.
Use them all over the car, chassis, firewall, axles, rad support, seat frames, etc. But please, DON'T use them under your paint and primers on the outside of your truck. Use a COMPETE paint system by an automotive paint refinishing like PPG, DuPont and the like.
And before all of you go off on me telling "not all of us have shops, compressors, money, etc" I understand that. I have been in the same boat, I havn't always had these things. But that doesn't mean you can't find a way. It also doesn't mean you can't be educated in right from wrong.
Also, please don't tell me about how you or your uncle Joe have mixed and match products and used lemon juice as wax and grease remover for years "without any problems".
That is fine, but you really don't know if it could have been better if you used another product, you haven't done blind tests with a standard, thus, you really don't know much about the outcome of using these products in that way.
It is VERY simple, these are FACTS , not my "opinion". The FACTS are if you use the proper product following the tech sheets recommendations you WILL just by the odds have better results, PERIOD.
The example I give of the "junior chemists" in my article are REAL. These guys THOUGHT they knew more than the people who developed the products. They really did, they thought that their "real world" experiance taught them more than the people who studied and worked with chemistry every day knew. They caused me more headaches than you can imagine. I saw so many failures that I could tell you what happen in such detail you would think I was standing behind you when you painted it. People would try to lie to me so they could get replacement product and I literally tell them EXACTLY what they did. I could see in thier eyes that they were actually scared that I could know so much. Like I was a stalker watching thru the window! I would tell them how much solvent and which ones they used, if hardener was used correctly, if it was sanded correctly, where they overlapped thier coats, how many coats, and on an one. But it was simple, I saw this stuff EVERYDAY I REALLY learned how to make these products work, and what causes problems. I had painted everyday as a living for almost 20 years when I took the job as a paint rep. I had no training, just the "real world". Well boys and girls, the "real world" doesn't teach you CRAP about these products and their chemistry. As a rep I had hundreds of hours of formal training in training centers in a number of different states. S-W spend tens of thousands of dollars on this training for little old me. That along with the "real world" experiance AS a paint rep going to hundreds of shops all over this beautiful state of California taught me THOUSANDS of times more than the "real world" as a painter ever would.
I am not the best painter, not in by a long shot. I do not know everything, not by a long shot.
But there is one thing I do know, following the manufactures recommendations will provide you with a better end product, PERIOD .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
Rules, rules, rules, so many rules.
Use this don’t use that.
Sand this, don’t sand that.
These companies must think we are stupid right? They tell us to buy their products only. Of course they do, so they can make money off of us, right?
That is how many people feel. They mix and match products thinking they can out smart the chemists that created the product!
The manufacturer spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly even millions, developing the product. They did EVERYTHING possible to make it perform it’s best. Heck, if they found it worked better if you painted it while standing on your head, THAT would be in the tech sheet!
Did you know that most of these products you use have a lifetime warranty? That’s right. The manufacturer will stand behind their primers, paints, and clears for your LIFETIME. Now, as a DIYer you can’t have this warranty. What makes the difference between the warranty YOU have (usually none) and the lifetime warranty a shop may have? The training, that’s what. The manufacturer has classes for the painters to go to. He then takes a test, if he passes, the manufacture knows that he understands the procedures and proper product choice. The manufacturer has learned that it is likely the painter will use the product properly and it will perform as expected. The manufacturer puts hundreds of millions of dollars on the line with this warranty. They know they can, if the product is used EXACTLY as they have instructed on the tech sheet.
I have always been the kind of guy to follow instructions. Even before I had the training I used the products exactly as I was told to. I am sure this accounts for the very few failures I have had in the 28 plus years I have been doing this work.
Five of those 28 years I was a paint rep. If there is one singular thing I came away from that job with it would be importance of following the recommendations. As a rep I visited hundreds, possibly thousands of shops. These shops were in every shape and size. From one with seven frame machines and five paint booths doing a million dollars of business a month, to a one man shop with two stalls.
Among these shops there was a very distinct pattern: the ones who went to tech school, had only ONE brand of product on the shelves, and REFERRED to the tech sheets, had fewer problems. Most of these shops had NO problems, EVER.
They were open to hear about new products and ready to learn about how to make any product or tool perform better. Oh yeah, and they made more money.
Then, there was the “dark side”. These were the shops that would buy any product, any brand, just to save a dollar. Their shelves were covered with so many labels, it looked like the cans of soda and beer in a Quickie Mart cooler.
If, and I mean a BIG if, you could get them to a tech class, they were disruptive and later told me how they “could have taught that class”. They were quick to tell you how smart they were and how the paint company didn’t know jack about the “real world”. These shops took up about 99% of my trouble shooting time. They didn’t have little “how can I get this primer to dry faster?” sort of problems. They had TOTAL catastrophic failures! I was the first one they called because we must have put out a “bad batch” of product.
The one thing I never understood is how these guys would complain about the product saying it is crap, all the while there was a guy right down the street using it with great success.
I tell you this only so you can understand where I get this passion that I have for using products properly. It was like watching a basketball game where one of the teams was wearing wet jeans and cowboy boots! After a while you wouldn’t even have to watch, you would know what the outcome was going to be.
Most product data sheets can be read in a few minutes. They are available on line, as well as in the store where you bought the products and many are even available on “Fax Back” right over your phone.
Get proper mixing containers. Be sure the solvents used match temperatures of the booth. Double check to be sure you have ALL the components (and enough of them) BEFORE you start so you don’t find yourself tempted to be “creative”.
The three most important things and the most common cause of failures are as follows:
1. Mix the proper components accurately .
2. Use the correct solvent for the temperature.
3. FOLLOW THE RECOMMENDED FLASH TIMES.
All this info is on the product data sheets, use them.
Painting can be difficult, there are things that are quite honestly out of your control. So, why not do EVERYTHING that IS in your control correctly.
It comes down to this very simple FACT there are products specifically manufactured to do everything you could ever want to do on your car. There are companies who spend MILLIONS of dollars DEVELOPING these products. Why in the world would one of us think we could come up with something better in our garage on a saturday with our 12th grade education (me) that some lab technition with a masters degree in chemistry working in a ten million dollar lab couldn't do?
I have seen these labs, I had the phone number and would call these guys to get answers to problems, THEY KNOW THEIR STUFF!
They study products for months before it is released to the public with FULL INSTRUCTIONS on how to use it. They have done advanced weather testing, scratch tests, corrosion tests,etc. ALL done to insure that YOU will have the best possible outcome when you use it.
PPG, DuPont, Sherwin-Williams, etc. ALL make complete systems to do anything you could want on your car. If you need some "special" product to cover rust, well, than you are not repairing it properly. POR-15, or ZeroRust are very good products to do these "repairs" on rust. I understand, I use them too. Not every project "deserves" to be sandblasted or acid dipped to remove all the rust and then primed with a primer in the system of your top coat like PPG, DuPont or the like. In these cases POR or ZeroRust can be a life saver. I am not knocking these products, they just have to stay in their place.
Use them all over the car, chassis, firewall, axles, rad support, seat frames, etc. But please, DON'T use them under your paint and primers on the outside of your truck. Use a COMPETE paint system by an automotive paint refinishing like PPG, DuPont and the like.
And before all of you go off on me telling "not all of us have shops, compressors, money, etc" I understand that. I have been in the same boat, I havn't always had these things. But that doesn't mean you can't find a way. It also doesn't mean you can't be educated in right from wrong.
Also, please don't tell me about how you or your uncle Joe have mixed and match products and used lemon juice as wax and grease remover for years "without any problems".
That is fine, but you really don't know if it could have been better if you used another product, you haven't done blind tests with a standard, thus, you really don't know much about the outcome of using these products in that way.
It is VERY simple, these are FACTS , not my "opinion". The FACTS are if you use the proper product following the tech sheets recommendations you WILL just by the odds have better results, PERIOD.
The example I give of the "junior chemists" in my article are REAL. These guys THOUGHT they knew more than the people who developed the products. They really did, they thought that their "real world" experiance taught them more than the people who studied and worked with chemistry every day knew. They caused me more headaches than you can imagine. I saw so many failures that I could tell you what happen in such detail you would think I was standing behind you when you painted it. People would try to lie to me so they could get replacement product and I literally tell them EXACTLY what they did. I could see in thier eyes that they were actually scared that I could know so much. Like I was a stalker watching thru the window! I would tell them how much solvent and which ones they used, if hardener was used correctly, if it was sanded correctly, where they overlapped thier coats, how many coats, and on an one. But it was simple, I saw this stuff EVERYDAY I REALLY learned how to make these products work, and what causes problems. I had painted everyday as a living for almost 20 years when I took the job as a paint rep. I had no training, just the "real world". Well boys and girls, the "real world" doesn't teach you CRAP about these products and their chemistry. As a rep I had hundreds of hours of formal training in training centers in a number of different states. S-W spend tens of thousands of dollars on this training for little old me. That along with the "real world" experiance AS a paint rep going to hundreds of shops all over this beautiful state of California taught me THOUSANDS of times more than the "real world" as a painter ever would.
I am not the best painter, not in by a long shot. I do not know everything, not by a long shot.
But there is one thing I do know, following the manufactures recommendations will provide you with a better end product, PERIOD .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
Rules, rules, rules, so many rules.
Use this don’t use that.
Sand this, don’t sand that.
These companies must think we are stupid right? They tell us to buy their products only. Of course they do, so they can make money off of us, right?
That is how many people feel. They mix and match products thinking they can out smart the chemists that created the product!
The manufacturer spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly even millions, developing the product. They did EVERYTHING possible to make it perform it’s best. Heck, if they found it worked better if you painted it while standing on your head, THAT would be in the tech sheet!
Did you know that most of these products you use have a lifetime warranty? That’s right. The manufacturer will stand behind their primers, paints, and clears for your LIFETIME. Now, as a DIYer you can’t have this warranty. What makes the difference between the warranty YOU have (usually none) and the lifetime warranty a shop may have? The training, that’s what. The manufacturer has classes for the painters to go to. He then takes a test, if he passes, the manufacture knows that he understands the procedures and proper product choice. The manufacturer has learned that it is likely the painter will use the product properly and it will perform as expected. The manufacturer puts hundreds of millions of dollars on the line with this warranty. They know they can, if the product is used EXACTLY as they have instructed on the tech sheet.
I have always been the kind of guy to follow instructions. Even before I had the training I used the products exactly as I was told to. I am sure this accounts for the very few failures I have had in the 28 plus years I have been doing this work.
Five of those 28 years I was a paint rep. If there is one singular thing I came away from that job with it would be importance of following the recommendations. As a rep I visited hundreds, possibly thousands of shops. These shops were in every shape and size. From one with seven frame machines and five paint booths doing a million dollars of business a month, to a one man shop with two stalls.
Among these shops there was a very distinct pattern: the ones who went to tech school, had only ONE brand of product on the shelves, and REFERRED to the tech sheets, had fewer problems. Most of these shops had NO problems, EVER.
They were open to hear about new products and ready to learn about how to make any product or tool perform better. Oh yeah, and they made more money.
Then, there was the “dark side”. These were the shops that would buy any product, any brand, just to save a dollar. Their shelves were covered with so many labels, it looked like the cans of soda and beer in a Quickie Mart cooler.
If, and I mean a BIG if, you could get them to a tech class, they were disruptive and later told me how they “could have taught that class”. They were quick to tell you how smart they were and how the paint company didn’t know jack about the “real world”. These shops took up about 99% of my trouble shooting time. They didn’t have little “how can I get this primer to dry faster?” sort of problems. They had TOTAL catastrophic failures! I was the first one they called because we must have put out a “bad batch” of product.
The one thing I never understood is how these guys would complain about the product saying it is crap, all the while there was a guy right down the street using it with great success.
I tell you this only so you can understand where I get this passion that I have for using products properly. It was like watching a basketball game where one of the teams was wearing wet jeans and cowboy boots! After a while you wouldn’t even have to watch, you would know what the outcome was going to be.
Most product data sheets can be read in a few minutes. They are available on line, as well as in the store where you bought the products and many are even available on “Fax Back” right over your phone.
Get proper mixing containers. Be sure the solvents used match temperatures of the booth. Double check to be sure you have ALL the components (and enough of them) BEFORE you start so you don’t find yourself tempted to be “creative”.
The three most important things and the most common cause of failures are as follows:
1. Mix the proper components accurately .
2. Use the correct solvent for the temperature.
3. FOLLOW THE RECOMMENDED FLASH TIMES.
All this info is on the product data sheets, use them.
Painting can be difficult, there are things that are quite honestly out of your control. So, why not do EVERYTHING that IS in your control correctly.