http://www.iskycams.com/BearingFlyer.pdf Thought some might find it interesting.

As a side note, I know of one set of regular Red Zones sent back and rebuilt to the EZ roller. Cost was over $400 to rebuild/convert them.

http://www.iskycams.com/BearingFlyer.pdf Thought some might find it interesting.

As a side note, I know of one set of regular Red Zones sent back and rebuilt to the EZ roller. Cost was over $400 to rebuild/convert them.
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It is the $260 rebuild charge plus the $150 charge for the new bearing.
When buying new the upgrade is also $150

Have a few sets out there now,,, so far so good but they don't have any time to speak of yet.
According to Ron & Richard they are seeing outstanding results from the last couple of years of testing, both hi spring pressures & endurance.

Big advantage I can see is not having to fish around for all the little needle bearings when a lifter goes south...;)
While we're on the subject...
How often do y'all recommend to have the Red Zones rebuilt?

Big advantage I can see is not having to fish around for all the little needle bearings when a lifter goes south...;)
While we're on the subject...
How often do y'all recommend to have the Red Zones rebuilt?
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Really hard queston to answer :cool:
If it were me I would be checking them every winter.
If you drive a lot it would probably be after a few thousand miles, if they seem happy go for longer intervals
Now, I know of a few engines that have run them for a very long time with no issues
A couple I can vouch of for sure & a number of circle track deals with way too many seasons on them but,,,,
One is a small block that is driven all the time, over 80K last I heard & he did nothing but change the oil & adjust the valves on at oil change
This engine has a Revkit as I recall but Revkits are easy in a small block, pain in the a$$ in a Rat especially with the Dart block. Never have put one in but I am looking,,,,,,
BB with at least 20K on in now, it had about 15k a year ago & I have not heard from him for a year or so.
Usually hear if something happens :D

Rowdy had just under 5000 & lost a lifter.
This one may have not been all lifter though as some of the other lobes
did not look real happy for some reason.
I Rock-welled it as did Ron & it was fine but something was going on that he does not have a real answer for.

Talk about a cop-out answer :D ,,, best I can do though.

Jim Oddy 450 seat, 1300 open. oof.

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It is the $260 rebuild charge plus the $150 charge for the new bearing.
When buying new the upgrade is also $150

Have a few sets out there now,,, so far so good but they don't have any time to speak of yet.
According to Ron & Richard they are seeing outstanding results from the last couple of years of testing, both hi spring pressures & endurance.

Yes, these did not need to be rebuilt, were excellent according to Isky. He just wanted to try out the new design. Probably would have been better off using the old ones on another project, and buying a new set of the EZ rollers. He gets a good deal from Ron too!

Sounds like they may be using that ultrafine diamond "plated/coating" on something like say, a 40 Rc OQT steel inner bushing to get them to hold up???

Just guessing is all b/c I have NO idea how they are building them??

pdq67

Sounds like they may be using that ultrafine diamond "plated/coating" on something like say, a 40 Rc OQT steel inner bushing to get them to hold up???

Just guessing is all b/c I have NO idea how they are building them??

pdq67
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Nope, DLC it ain't ;)

It is a proprietary bronze material, they are not saying what though as they have the exclusive rights in this application for the time being is my understanding.

Well I know for a fact that Herculoy and Silicon Bronze can be made "Tough as Nails"!!!

Cold chisel tough!!!

pdq67

you know it kind of chaps my A$$ a bit that they want that much money to swap over current Red Zones to the new design. In their OWN flyer they admonish and admit to inherent weakness in the needle design. Just a year ago they touted them as being the best on the market and durable. Obviously they had a issue with lifter failure ( and discussed here ) and were forced to come up with an alternative. So here is my choices

Live in torment running the lifters and just see what happens

Send in my already expensive lifters with less than a hours time on them and pay $425 more dollars to get a durable lifter which is what i thought i had to begin with.

They should suck it up and make some concessions to those that have recently purchased their lifters. I mean what the hell are they gonna rebuild on my brand new lifters? why not just charge the $150 for the upgraded components? Thats just not right. I cant see where it would cost any different than if they took a box of new ones off the shelf and upgraded to the new bushing design.

Seriously frustrating.

Shawn

Mike,

All I'm going to say is that Isky better have a real pressure lube design to lube both the inner axle AND outter race/bore OR eventually those places will gaul..

You can't run metal to metal w/o a hydrodynamic wedge lube film between them in BOTH places for any length of time before failure, imho.

That's why I mentioned the "DLC" stuff b/c I read it is quite the extreme pressure hi-po wear coating in poorly lube situations like solid roller lifters operate under..............

Mike,

Please tell me my thinking is ALL WET here b/c I really want to be able to run a solid roller cam for the extra HP it will produce even w/ Harold's new solid lifter flat-tappet design for the good old CC 288AR solid street roller..

I'm pulling for Isky as well as for Schubeck too, to get this crap figured out so's they will work long-term in a daily driver situation!!!!!!!

pdq67

Mike,

All I'm going to say is that Isky better have a real pressure lube design to lube both the inner axle AND outter race/bore OR eventually those places will gaul..

You can't run metal to metal w/o a hydrodynamic wedge lube film between them in BOTH places for any length of time before failure, imho.

That's why I mentioned the "DLC" stuff b/c I read it is quite the extreme pressure hi-po wear coating in poorly lube situations like solid roller lifters operate under..............

Mike,

Please tell me my thinking is ALL WET here b/c I really want to be able to run a solid roller cam for the extra HP it will produce even w/ Harold's new solid lifter flat-tappet design for the good old CC 288AR solid street roller..

I'm pulling for Isky as well as for Schubeck too, to get this crap figured out so's they will work long-term in a daily driver situation!!!!!!!

pdq67
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Well,, I guess the old flat head ford bearing design didn't work then :D

And yes, the lifters have pressure lube to the axle but remember, delivery pressure is not what lubes a bearing, as you stated, the film of oil does
With rollers this film is disrupted into a lot of very small "wedges"
A sleeve bearing will handle much more load as it has more surface area.
But the fact is this is all academic as the "bronze" bushing is pressed into the steel wheel & only runs on oil at the axle, it is not a "floating bearing"

Shawn,

I wouldn't get all upset over that marketing material. Your RZ are still as good as they were. I mean, what would you expect them to put in the sales lit for their new product? Keep in mind that this board is just a drop in the ocean of the larger internet, and only people with problems post complaints.

How many guys here had trouble with their RZ?

Careful about getting caught up in www buzz about stuff. Just because it's been beat to death in this little corner of the net doesn't mean there's a widespread problem.

Would you get all upset about your lifters if you ran across some guy in a bar who had trouble with a set? In fact, it's not even a set, it's a single lifter IIRC.

Me and Mike had an extended telephone conversation on this very subject just the other day, the rebuild part anyway. My problem is the fact that, if I sent my Red Zones in to be rebuilt (as I did)), not upgraded (mine were upgraded), but rebuilt with regular old needle bearings, then I would expect them to be returned with, at very least, new axle, rollers and bearings. Wasn't the advertised price to rebuild the old lifters $250 all along.

I find it kinda hard to believe that the price remains the same for simply pressing 16 axles in and out. I haven't received my upgraded lifters yet, they are in route from Mike's. He said that the lifter body itself appears to have had nothing done to it other than intall the new rollers. Still has the same minor scratches, discoloration, etc...

It very well sounds as though purchasing new/upgraded is the only reasonable way to go. Maybe the offer to upgrade exiting units was made with good intentions, but it sounds as though the end result is resentment. They could have just offered them as a new product, probably wouldn't have had half the reaction.

As far as denouncing the original Red Zones, I don't think that it is an issue at all. Shouldn't every company that expects to stay ahead of the competition, be experimenting with bettering their existing product. Isky has long been accused of being too comfortable with the tried and true. It almost seems hypocritical to condemn the old because of the new. It's nothing more than the natural evolution of information, engineering and time.

I'm currently experiencing a similar, but unrelated dilemma. I've been looking at new cars, but I don't want to be the guy that bought the '04 Mustang or the '84 Vette. Driving a brand new car that in every aspect, other than the monthly payment, is already so yesterday. Dated mechanically and physically.

If the charge to rebuild regular red zones is $260, including parts, why would they still charge you $260 +$150 for the new EZ roller? Doesn't make sense to me. Some of that $260 should be for parts. But if you upgrade, it's all labor? Hmmm.

I don't have a problem buying a new model car at all. I bought my '67 SS/RS Camaro new, sight unseen in Oct. '66 and a new '75 Monza 2+2 fine...

Bttt......

Mike,

I wish Isky woulda pressed the "bronze", whatever, onto the axle and let it float against the larger hole in the roller b/c then there would be more surface area to generate a decent hydraulic lube wedge..

At least, seem's to me to be better...

pdq67

That was kind of my point. I want the needle bearings, rollers and axles that I paid for.

It's the "principle", more than the actual parts.

Then again, if this upgrade results in never having to experience another failure, then the expense will be hailed as the best money ever spent.

Hope that's not just wishful thinking.

P.S. My rebuilt/upgraded lifters, as well as, everything else that I had been waiting for, were delivered just 15 minutes ago. Haven't opened the box though. The only pieces yet to arrive are the thicker walled Manley pushrods.

pdq,

The new car thing, wasn't the purchase, per say, but the manner that the two particular examples were depreciated excessively by the offerings of the next model year.

The 2005, retro Mustang, totally dated the '04 model as "old". And the port injection of the '85 Vette, all but obsoleted the throttle body injection, and therefore, the desireability of the '84 Vette.

hmm, interesting. Still I wonder why someone doesn't design a system where oil is fed to the bearings, somehow, through the rocker arm into the lifter or design a pump in the lifter itself using the action of the cam lobe.

hmm, interesting. Still I wonder why someone doesn't design a system where oil is fed to the bearings, somehow, through the rocker arm into the lifter or design a pump in the lifter itself using the action of the cam lobe.
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Say what :confused:

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Say what :confused:

My ideas are based on my presumption that the oil fed by way of the lifter valley passages is very poor and is unable to supply decent oil pressure or no pressure to the lifters, and that is why current lifters use roller bearings.

Mike,

He's thinking good except I don't think that he fully understands the size constraints involved to do what he mentioned.

Good idea k.....

It's just that the needle bearings take one heck of a beating and eventually fail regardless and that's why Isky and Schbeck are going away from them in their different designs..

He, He!! And our hobby is the "real world" STREET and TRACK test bed for both,,,,,,,,, Besides Organized Racing and Boat racing...........

pdq67

Mike,

He's thinking good except I don't think that he fully understands the size constraints involved to do what he mentioned.

Good idea k.....

It's just that the needle bearings take one heck of a beating and eventually fail regardless and that's why Isky and Schbeck are going away from them in their different designs..

pdq67

I figure if you can pressurize a connecting rod bearing, how much harder would it be to lube a lifter? Run some -4 an lines to the top of some special rocker arm pedestals that feed oil to the rocker arms that subsequently feed oil to the lifters by way of the pushrods.

I figure if you can pressurize a connecting rod bearing, how much harder would it be to lube a lifter? Run some -4 an lines to the top of some special rocker arm pedestals that feed oil to the rocker arms that subsequently feed oil to the lifters by way of the pushrods.
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Interesting thinking but it will not work.
I don't understand why you would want to oil the system backwards?
Have you ever pulled a valve cover with the engine running?
This is the oil coming from the lifter galleys.

The lifter galleys have good oil feed now, it was just the issue of getting the oil to the needles & axle that is a problem.
With the Isky, Morel, Crower with the HPPO & now the Comps there is pressure oil at the rollers.
The deal is this is not the whole issue, it is unit loading that is the issue.
There is plenty of oil, just not enough area to handle the loads.

If you fed it from the top you would have leaks at the pushrod/rocker junction, the pedestal itself, the lifter bores,, completely backwards to me ;)

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Interesting thinking but it will not work.
I don't understand why you would want to oil the system backwards?
Have you ever pulled a valve cover with the engine running?
This is the oil coming from the lifter galleys.

The lifter galleys have good oil feed now, it was just the issue of getting the oil to the needles & axle that is a problem.
With the Isky, Morel, Crower with the HPPO & now the Comps there is pressure oil at the rollers.
The deal is this is not the whole issue, it is unit loading that is the issue.
There is plenty of oil, just not enough area to handle the loads.

If you fed it from the top you would have leaks at the pushrod/rocker junction, the pedestal itself, the lifter bores,, completely backwards to me ;)

Yep, and the leak would only be present when the loading is at its highest.

No, at it's lowest b/c that's when the p/r tips and such are loosest...

And fwiw, rods get lubed from the mains all the time..

I've thought of making roller lifters like an underarm deodorant dispenser w/ the big ball on it's end made like a GREAT BIG balllpoint pen tip, but machining a matching roller groove in each lobe may be a real bi-ch??

pdq67