How can you know if a block was restamped? I know a lot of it goes on but how do you know a restamped block from a factory stamped block? Thanks , Bob

Depends on where the car was built & year. In 69 & 70 for exmaple, Baltimore and Van Nuys plants used small lettering for the VIN# portion stamped on the block and larger lettering for the engine number # stamp. However, the Leeds Plant used the same size lettering for BOTH set of numbers but reversed the order left to right. Engine number on the left side of the engine pad and the VIN # on the right side of the pad plus the Leeds Plant stamped most VIN #'s UPSIDE DOWN on the engine pad. I own 2 original Leeds examples plus have seen others over the years.

Thanks Jim, I have a 67 SS396 /325 chevelle I want to check and my son has a 66 corvette with a 327 / 350 HP . Both cars check out to be factory correct blocks but I would feel better if I could confirm it. Thanks, Bob

A good restamp is hard to detect, a bad one is easy to spot. The best thing is experience. You have to look at a lot of stamps. That's hard if you are not around them every day. If you want, post your stamps and we can offer an opinion. That's the best you can do with photos, but I'd sure offer a look for you if it would help ease your mind.

How could I check the letter/number positioning for an Arlington TX built car?

and 66 and 67 SS was also very specific and plant specific.. I have debunked several in the last few weeks for collectors that were looking at buying at various auctions!! Money well spent they all said. Sad that we need such services.

Mike

A good 1970 BB example from Kansas City (Leeds Plant).

A good 1970 BB example from Kansas City (Leeds Plant). Unlike other plants, Leeds used the same size lettering for both sets of numbers. The placement of the VIN# & Motor number are switched (Left to Right) and the VIN# is stamped upside down.

Let me what you think?

By any your means i'm not questioning yours not being original stamping but i've never seen any engine stamps that has cross hatching without the engine being decked

Cross hatching like you would see on cylinder walls after honing. I build my own engines but i'm not a machinist. My 2 69s have the original stamping on the pad but my 496 has been decked so theres no numbers on the pad, so you just see the scratches (cross hatching) on the pad. Lets get other T.C input on the picture.

Does Anyone Have A Picture Of A Kansas City (leeds) Car With The Vin#

Depends on where the car was built & year. In 69 & 70 for exmaple, Baltimore and Van Nuys plants used small lettering for the VIN# portion stamped on the block and larger lettering for the engine number # stamp. However, the Leeds Plant used the same size lettering for BOTH set of numbers but reversed the order left to right. Engine number on the left side of the engine pad and the VIN # on the right side of the pad plus the Leeds Plant stamped most VIN #'s UPSIDE DOWN on the engine pad. I own 2 original Leeds examples plus have seen others over the years.

Might be true for 70 KC Chevelles but in 1969, KC and Atlanta stamped the VIN drivative next to the oil filter, not on the engine ID pad.

Unlike other plants, Leeds used the same size lettering for both sets of numbers. The placement of the VIN# & Motor number are switched (Left to Right) and the VIN# is stamped upside down.



Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Leeds DIDN'T stamp both sets of numbers... The engine assembly date and suffix code were stamped at the Tonawanda, New York Engine assembly plant... The "VIN" derivative was stamped at the car assembly plant (Leeds or other)...

While this example shows the ssame "size" stampings, they appear to be different fonts...

The cross-hatching earlier mentioned appears to be from someone cleaning the pad to see the numbers, but not necessarily from remachining the deck surface... The factory deck machining did not have the "cross-hatch" pattern nor the swerle pattern common with most deck resurfacing machines...


The placement of the VIN# & Motor number are switched (Left to Right) and the VIN# is stamped upside down.


They aren't switched, left to right, are they? Just the VIN derivative upside down...



Can anyone explain the tern "CONVIN" that some people use to describe the stamped VIN derivative? I'm curious to know what the "con" means...

I'll tell you guys this.. I think, in this day and age where restamping and faked cars and documents are so prevalent.. that I would not be sharing on the open forums any pictures of my deck stamps and build sheets, etc.. known to be original.. I know it's a fine line between helping those who do not know what to look for when buying a car and wanting to Educate them... BUT.. at what point ( we really don't know ) are we helping the guys.. the lurkers.. the ones reading and not replying... at one point are we helping these guys to KNOW what the FONTS are supposed to look like from various plants?? What a real build sheet is supposed to look like? Helping them Create Clones and Fakes :mad:

It's your own individual call.. but I for one keep my numerous examples of 66 and 67 Deck Stamps and documentation close to my vest... I help many many people in need of such information, but I won't share examples of what real original stamps look like... not going to help the crooks, even if it is in the Face of not helping the majority who are honest :noway:


Just stuff to think about
Mike Crown

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Leeds DIDN'T stamp both sets of numbers... The engine assembly date and suffix code were stamped at the Tonawanda, New York Engine assembly plant... The "VIN" derivative was stamped at the car assembly plant (Leeds or other)...

You are correct -- Tonawanda stamped the block and the assembly plant did too. Two different stampings done at two different times and in two different fonts.

They aren't switched, left to right, are they? Just the VIN derivative upside down...

That's correct, just the VIN derivative upside down, but only certain plants are reputed to have done this, as Dale stated.

Can anyone explain the tern "CONVIN" that some people use to describe the stamped VIN derivative? I'm curious to know what the "con" means...

The term "CON VIN" is short for confidential VIN. I believe many manufacturers began putting them on cars before 1968, but it wasn't until 1968 that it was a requirement of federal law. Dale or another TC member will correct me if I'm wrong. I've heard that occasionally some motors made it out of the assembly plant without the partial VIN, however, I've never seen one personally.

- Nate

Can anyone explain the tern "CONVIN" that some people use to describe the stamped VIN derivative? I'm curious to know what the "con" means...

I believe it's an old term for Concealed VIN. Before restoration of these cars was necessary (or in vogue), many people didn't know about the numbers behind the heater cover or on the frame. Since they aren't readily accessible, crooks simply swapped the VIN plate since it was the easiest item to change and normally the only thing 'casually' inspected.

Edit: I see I was beat to the punch. :) CON may very well mean confidential... Maybe it's like CE, some say Counter Engine, some say Crate Engine, and I believe the correct term is simply Chevrolet Engine as per information provided by Camaros.Org

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/CE_enginecoding.jpg

Yah your right Mike but I really think its to late we all know that stuff is out there and the bad part of it is there is no one we can contact to stop the fake paper work etc. when you've got places like ebay that will let you list a pile of dog s@#t. I believe if they monitor whats being listed would be a great start on keeping things legit.

Found what I was looking for:

Confidential VIN: "Since 1969, the federal government has required manufacturers to engrave a unique number, the VIN, on all passenger cars in one visible and several hidden locations."

Another mystery solved :hurray:

Yah your right Mike but I really think its to late we all know that stuff is out there and the bad part of it is there is no one we can contact to stop the fake paper work etc. when you've got places like ebay that will let you list a pile of dog s@#t. I believe if they monitor whats being listed would be a great start on keeping things legit.


Never too late.. a new Crook is born every day in this hobby.. and just because the stuff is out there and available, does not mean we have to make it easier for them.... and although many of them are very good faked stamps and paperwork.. those of us who really know the finer points.. still catch most of them...everytime we post a real example, we help educate the bad guys and soon.. even the best of us will get fooled and some of us are already.. bottomline, my advice... be careful who you are sharing info with and why! :thumbsup:

those of us who really know the finer points.. still catch most of them...everytime we post a real example, we help educate the bad guys and soon.. even the best of us will get fooled and some of us are already.. bottomline, my advice... be careful who you are sharing info with and why! :thumbsup:

...and everytime you post a real example, you help educate the good guys also and soon.. all or most of us will not be fooled :)

Fame

You missed my point... no need to POST for the bad guys to see.. just share amongst yourselves, for the guys you know need the info for legit reasons.. that's why we have email ;)

All these pictures are 'big block chevy' [e-bay] listings, "just from today"...........

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/PartsNjunk2/100_2697.JPG

http://i13.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/87/0a/f6a9_1.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/carsandguitars/ebay/454rag19.jpg

http://i7.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/88/e3/72f0_3.JPG

http://i11.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/87/cc/8b88_3.JPG

I think, in this day and age where restamping and faked cars and documents are so prevalent.. that I would not be sharing on the open forums any pictures of my deck stamps and build sheets, etc.... I know it's a fine line between helping those who do not know what to look for when buying a car and wanting to Educate them... BUT.. at what point are we helping the guys.. the lurkers.. the ones reading and not replying... at one point are we helping these guys to KNOW what the FONTS are supposed to look like from various plants?? What a real build sheet is supposed to look like? Helping them create Clones and Fakes :mad:

...everytime you post a real example, you help educate "the good guys", so most of us will not be fooled :)

I actually agree, with both of you, the difference is, "people 'WITH' money, use professionals", to do their dirty work...
http://bestsmileys.com/money/2.gif

The "cat has been, out of the bag", a long time...With e-bay seller, and professional re-stamper "BIG BLOCK BRUCE",
[ "who charge the crap out of, these high dollar e-bay 'clone' sellers, to make their cars number matching", "AGAIN" ]....
So they can, ["relieve someone else, of large sums of money", by dishonestly USING a re-stamped, fake engine block]..

Anyone who deals in "number matching vehicles", had better become a [professional engine stamp specialist], and a [genuine buildsheet examiner] real fast, otherwise, "you'll be the one, left holding the bag"...............Don.

Anyone who deals in "number matching vehicles", had better become a [professional engine stamp specialist], and a [genuine buildsheet examiner] real fast, otherwise, "you'll be the one, left holding the bag"...............Don

I will definitely agree with that.

The old hand stamp units could be very easily rotated 180 degrees by mistake and the numbers would appear upside down. Also, there are probably lots of fakes out there being touted as original stamped. How do you separate sloppy factory work from fakes? It could be tough.

Just think, how many of us are driving that numbers matching hot rod that actually has a restamped block. Make me sick just thinking about it.

A good 1970 BB example from Kansas City (Leeds Plant). Unlike other plants, Leeds used the same size lettering for both sets of numbers. The placement of the VIN# & Motor number are switched (Left to Right) and the VIN# is stamped upside down.

Let me what you think?

Restamped.

Someone once told me that if you have the block magnifluxed that it would show up if it were a re-stamp. Does anyone know if that is correct? I agree though, restamping if fraud and counterfeit!

I think if youre buying anything thats already been restored you have to wonder if its been tampered with. The prices of numbers matching cars has made it too tempting. Since I got my engine in pieces when I bought the car, I was able to examine it thoroughly. It obviously had never been "decked" and the serial # appeared unaltered. From what I understand, one deck honing @ .010 can erase a vin #. If there is a way to check to see if the block has been decked then that would be a dead giveaway that the block would have to have been re stamped.

Check this one out on ebay #150087736973 if this isnt luck owning a car and finding the correct number matching engine a couple of years later! what a joke

A good 1970 BB example from Kansas City (Leeds Plant). Unlike other plants, Leeds used the same size lettering for both sets of numbers. The placement of the VIN# & Motor number are switched (Left to Right) and the VIN# is stamped upside down.

Let me what you think?

I don't think that is a genuine stamp. The 6s are all wrong, among other things.

Fake:
http://i11.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/87/cc/8b88_3.JPG

Fake:
http://photos.imageevent.com/carsandguitars/ebay/454rag19.jpg

Q: Was the same lettering equipment used to stamp the VIN# on the Auto Trans pad as well?

Dan, the 6's are the same style on 2 other 70 KC cars I have owned (& own) for many years.

Q: Was the same lettering equipment used to stamp the VIN# on the Auto Trans pad as well?

Interesting... I haven't seen 6s like that before.

I think the engine and transmission were joined before installation in the car. So the VIN on the engine block and the VIN on the transmission case were likely stamped at the same station. So I would guess that the same stamper would be used on both.

I can't ever recall seeing a number "1" on an engine stamp either, always the letter "I" representing number 1. According to the assembly process page on camaro.org

In the engine schedule area, the operator grabbed the next Broadcast Copy from the printer, verified the sequence number, noted the engine code required for that car, and moved an air-powered overhead hoist on traveling bridge rails over the correct engine rack. The specified engine was hoisted out of the rack and transferred to the next hook on the overhead engine dress line conveyor, where the throwout bearing (on manuals) was greased and installed, along with the clutch fork boot. Another operator on the other side of the line repeated the process with the specified transmission, which was then installed and bolted to the engine; on automatics, an air tool was used to rotate the flexplate, and the converter bolts were driven, followed by the lower cover. The VIN derivative numbers were stamped in the next operation on both the engine pad and the transmission, using a gang-stamp holder and a hammer.

My vin on my engine pad is stamped identical to the vin on my transmission.Jan. 70 Baltimore car.

My vin on my engine pad is stamped identical to the vin on my transmission, Jan.1970 Baltimore car.
Doug.........Does your 1970 Baltimore engine "stamp size" look similar, to this.......

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/PartsNjunk2/100_2697.JPG



Or, Does your "stamp size" look more, like this.......supposedly "original", 1970 Kansas stamp.......
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5678&d=1170423041

A good 1970 BB example from Kansas City (Leeds Plant).
Unlike other plants, Leeds used the same size lettering for both sets of numbers.
The placement of the VIN# & Motor number are switched (Left to Right) and, the VIN# is stamped upside down.

Let me what you think?


Supposedly the "TONAWANDA", engine suffix code, is larger [3/16"] than the "CON VIN", [1/8"] which consists of the divisional identification number, model year, assembly plant designation and vehicle serial number...Don.

I can't ever recall seeing a number "1" on an engine stamp either, always the letter "I" representing number 1. According to the assembly process page on camaro.org

My 69 had a TO109 on the pad it wasnt a I. It was correct era not a matching vin

Doug.........Does your 1970 Baltimore engine "stamp size" look similar, to this.......

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/PartsNjunk2/100_2697.JPG



Or, Does your "stamp size" look more, like this.......supposedly "original", 1970 Kansas stamp.......
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5678&d=1170423041




Supposedly the "TONAWANDA", engine suffix code, is larger [3/16"] than the "CON VIN", [1/8"] which consists of the divisional identification number, model year, assembly plant designation and vehicle serial number...Don.

My vin # is like the small set of numbers of the 2 pictured here.

The only time I have seen the letter "I" used \in a Tonawanda stamp, is when the date is like T11I2XXX, where there are alot of "1"'s in use, like october through december.

I worked in the Chevy Tonawanda engine plant, from 1971-'76. On an average 8 hr shift, the foundry produced over 500 SB "cases" alone. Also produced in Tonawanda were BB cases, marine blocks, both SB & BB heads, most iron intakes and exhaust manifolds.

These raw castings, after having the sand shaken out and shot peened, were downloaded off conveyors, placed onto metal skids or in large baskets, and held in an adjoining warehouse awaiting machining.

There was no first in, first out rotation of parts. The forktruck drivers simply picked up the closest, most convenient skid/basket and transported it off for machining.

Also, any case (block) that had minor casting flaws were pulled off the foundry line to be evaluated for potential weld repair. Weld build ups on the main bearing saddle were a common repair. These repair areas always had backlogs. A problem casting could easily be pushed aside for months before repaired and then sent off for machining....
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

My vin # is like the small set of numbers pictured here.

DougA, "That seems to be correct, with most of the "original confidential vin#'s", that I have seen"........Don.

The original [3/16"] "TONAWANDA", engine suffix code, is "ALWAYS" larger,
than the [1/8"] "CON VIN", original assembly plant stamped code...........................................Don .


Don,
I have to respectfully disagree with that statement.
I have a few 1970 KC engine stamp pad pictures, that are 100% original, that show the Tonawanda and the VIN stamp size to be nearly, if not totally identical.
The fonts may be a little different in shape, but the height looks the same.

I know most of the other assembly plants used a smaller VIN stamp in the same year and other years.

I won't post the pics here.

I have a few 1970 KC engine stamp pad pictures, that are 100% original, that show the Tonawanda and the VIN stamp size to be identical.
The fonts may be a little different in shape, but the height looks the same.

I know most of the other assembly plants used a smaller VIN stamp in the same year and other years.
Rick,
I can't argue or disagree, with you, because I don't have [any proof]...
...since my 1970 Leeds built LS-5, "original number matching engine", is long gone [sometime before 1984],
but I do have my "original number matching transmission" and it "seems" to have the..................
...............smaller partial VIN derivative, stamped on it.....

Look at this "conventional 1968 Kansas engine stamp".....[it won't let me post the picture]....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190077207026&rd=1&rd=1

I have seen pictures, of the larger 1970 stamp, and just assumed they might be, fake...............Don.

Don,
I have a 4-speed here that has a VIN that is close to yours, and is also from KC. It is 10K144xxx. There is a "6" in it that is funny looking like previously discussed, that some said they'd never seen. This isn't a restamp for sure.

I will have to go look at it's size in comparison to the VIN stamp for the engine blocks.

Your trans VIN has a 7 in it. Does it have the little leg coming off the top of the 7 like I've seen on most KC 1970 VIN stamps?

You know all this pondering on block restamping and vin stamps can leave you really doubting yourself. I bought my 66 a few months back from some folks who had owned it since the late '70's. When I went to look at the car, I had no idea that I might be looking at an original L-78 car. The car was sitting under a lean-to and the original engine was in a barn on the property. These folks didnt know a whole lot about chevelles, or "number matching". I looked at the engine and the casting date is B 19 6, the pad on the right bank of the block is stamped T0305EG, and the car assymbly date is 03C. There is no vin stamped on the block anywhere, and I'm pretty sure I'm the first to tear down the engine. This engine has been sitting since before numbers matching = big bucks. Now, I'm doubting myself. :confused: All casting numbers are correct for this engine. I guess what I'm getting at is that I bought it for original, I believe it is the original, and I dont care to sell it. But you still wonder...

While unusual Mike, not unheard of to see such a thing.

MC

I have seen one other 66 SS that had the original engine and no vin stamped on it. It too was an Atlanta built car. Think this was common for Atlanta?

I have seen one other 66 SS that had the original engine and no vin stamped on it. It too was an Atlanta built car. Think this was common for Atlanta?

NO, not at all common.

I have a few 1970 KC engine stamp pad pictures, that are 100% original, that show the Tonawanda and the VIN stamp size to be nearly, if not totally identical.
The fonts may be a little different in shape, but the height looks the same.

I know most of the other assembly plants used a smaller VIN stamp in the same year and other years.
http://i1.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/8d/5e/1911_1.JPG

Supposedly this "engine pad picture", is from a "real and true factory original LS6!.."


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Chevrolet-Chevelle-REAL-LS6-easy-project_W0QQitemZ140088865337QQihZ004QQcategoryZ61 64QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This car owner states, in this e-bay ad, "1970 Chevelle "Factory" LS6..

The car is a Kansas City built car hence the numbers on the engine pad are stamped upside down"...

This LS6 is a very "rare" non-cowl inducted and stripe delete Chevelle. Yes I have the extremely expensive correct dual snorkle air cleaner that goes with the sale. Most of the production 1970 LS6's were common cowl inducted... this car is rare!

I have not searched for a build sheet.

What is odd about this e-bay ad, never once says those most important, famous words, "number matching"..

After further review, I tend to agree with Rick, about the 1970/KC engine CON VIN# stamping "SIZE".....Don.

Oh but you are wrong... The All Important Words are no longer Numbers Matching :noway: It is ORIGINAL DRIVETRAIN!! :yes:

you're wrong.The All Important Words are not, Numbers Matching :noway: It is ORIGINAL DRIVETRAIN!! :yes:
Mike,
I guess your right, "that must be what I have", since my "original number matching engine", has been missing since before 1984, "over 20 years", and therefore, I have the [newer #445] 454 Chevy block, in the Chevelle.

I agree with you, WHAT I HAVE IS, "AN ORIGINAL 'CHEVROLET FACTORY INSTALLED' DRIVETRAIN" !!!!!

My days of feeling like a second class citizen, are over... I can hold my head high, again...........thanks....

I feel better already, I won't have to lie, when I tell people, My LS5 has,.. AN ORIGINAL DRIVETRAIN...
Since the trans./rearend are original, [I just won't mention the "454" came from a 1986 C-20 4dr,4wd pickup].

TERMINOLOGY, has to be the key, to a good sales pitch, do it with a straight face, and don't sweat.......Don.

you guys are killin me:yes: :D i am just wondering what he ment by stripe delete. it is not a stripe. he said it has been painted.. how does he know that it had no stripes from the factory...:noway: if it were stripe delete it would have hood pins, which it does. and it would have a flapper in the hood which it dosen't:noway: i am not haten just staten.:yes: i thought my car was stripe delete until a friend told me that it was special paint not RPO. I have no hood pins or cowl induction. and no paint code on tag. just blank. but i have been wrong before and probably am now:sad: jmo and i do like the car.:D