is there any reason to not galvanize a car frame. it is $200 verses $400 dipping plus por-15 materials. at galvanizing places they will hydacluric acid dip and put 4 mils of galvanizing on it all for $200. they do it to baot trailers all the time. is there a down side? hell whill i'm at it i will get my crossmember and control arms done. it's $25/100lbs or $200 min. why is this not well know. everyone keeps saying have it sand blasted, well that does not get into the channels, galvanizing will. i dont have any labor to do. they even strip it!

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Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering and people leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
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1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

I think 1 reason is that the process is massivly damaging to the environment, and as a result, there just are not many places that do it anymore.

Mercedes-Benz used to galvanize all or part of their bodies from what I understand.

IT seems to make sense to me, and it looks to be a lot easier than doing it yourself.

Like Kurt said there are not that many places that do galvanizing anymore, especially dealing with a piece that size.

It might take a little more Ummph to press the bushings into your control arms other than that it sounds like the way to go.

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TC #364
Aces #4309
Jeff's 69 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/daytonajeff1.jpg)

Plus, if you ever have a frame crack and you want to weld on it be prepared for a poisonuous gas to be released when you weld on it. Not fun stuff to smell!! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif

Joe

Sure it's not very "green", but plating shops are just superfund sites in waiting and yet we all still like shiny chrome bumpers and accessories.

I would just worry though about galvanizing anything like a control arm where the coating would alter press fit tolerances.

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67 396
SS clone

Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/rthlc/index)

Excellent idea!!! I like thinking differently. Never even thought of this ! Do it. Besides, with all the regulations these days, it is NOT an environmental disaster.
Darn, wish you posted this 3 years ago!!!!

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Make it the way you like it, forget what the other guys say!
http://chevelles.com/showroom/alelcaminofront.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/al4/alcamino64/index.html

I have seen some large equipment frames that were warped during the galvanizing process! The temp of the liquid in the vat can be pretty high. I'd check into that at the place you are planning on using!

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ACES member# 5093
Elcaminos are special!
I'd rather walk around with a Chevrolet hubcap in my hand than drive a Ford

Ole Paint (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/olepaint1)

I have heard of someone doing this a few years ago. I think this is a bad idea. First, you will never get the inside sections clean enough to get good adhesion of the galvanizing. Second, you will have even more problems getting paint to stick to the galvanizing, especially the inside sections which cannot be sanded or scuffed. Besides that, there is really not that much to be gained. Look at any galvanizes fence that has been out in the weather for a few years and you will see what I mean. Actually, the newer priming systems of the major paint manufacturers are just as effective at rust prevention. Using a good etch primer, a urethane primer/sealer, and a urethane top coat is suficient for any frame restoration. Powder coating is also great. One final note: Don't expect POR15 to stick to galvinizing. It doesn't like to stick to smooth surfaces at all. In comclusion, good though, but in reality, a really bad idea.

Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports http://communities.msn.com/Restorationphotos/homepage

GVMLS6, I appreciate your input, however the frame is getting dipped in hydrochloric acid first so that it is totally clean inside and out. and it does last look at boat trailers. they live a hard life in salt water too. for years with no problem. I don't plan on painting it anyway, but there are galvanized paints such as zinc chromate. Big James 4XL, good point I have checked into it a little o far and what I found out is they do this all the time. the temperature goes to 850F they dip it in for a few seconds. if the frames are made of 1040 steel astm 572 or there about this temperature has no effect on its hardness or yield limits. I am concerned about hydrogen imbrittlement though and I am looking more into that. and yes the frame could possibly warp a little depending on any built in stresses and thickness of the material. I will just check all my body mount dimensions again and tweak it back if that happens. I cant be by much. what I am looking for is if anyone has done this or has any knowledge of this that can say pretty confidently specifically why this should not be done or am I going to be the first guinea pig here to risk it all. I will not do my control arms but the cross member and radiator support would also be good candidates I think. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif


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Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering and people leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
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1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

You might also want to consider the additional weight it would add to your frame, it will be more than you would think. With the stresses a frame takes, they do bend and flex quite a bit in use. I would also think the galvanizing would crack before long leaving an avenue for corrosion to begin especially since it will be nice clean bare metal underneath after the cleaning process.

I would think you could get similar or better results by pouring POR 15 or similar paint into the hidden and closed sections (turn it over 90 degrees at a time to get all internal surfaces) with a lot less hassle and better cosmetic results (galvanizing is ugly IMO). There really aren't that many sections of the frame that cannot be painted. If you have the accessible sections sandblasted and then painted the hidden areas will still be left as is with a somewhat protective patina gained over the past 35+ years.

well for the moment my thinking is that i am going to do it. the weight gain is about 6%. so if the frame weighs about 300 to 400 lbs thats only 20-24 lbs and that does not bother me. boat trailers dont crack their galvanizing also por-15 has written me and says they have a way of painting galvanized steel. so as far as cosmetic reasons, i would still have options.

One final thought. New car manufacturers use galvanizing in conjunction with epoxy primers followed by BC/CC applications. With this process, they give a certain, timed, rust warranty. When body panels are damaged, the galvanized layer, for the most part, gets removed through grinding, sanding, etc. In order to keep the rust waranty intact, the factories insist that the repair be done using one of the approved paint manufacturers systems of etch prime followed by urethane primer(followed by BC/CC). This means that the etch plus urethane system is equal to galvanizing plus epoxy. In other words, it seems that you are going to a lot of trouble to gain almost nothing. And I go back to my fence example. Here in the midwest, galvanized fences don't last very long before they start rusting. Also, I know a lot of people like POR15, but recently when I tried it for the first time on a roof panel I sanded with 80 grit, I wasn't happy with the adhesion. It seems to work OK on rusted or very rough metal but I have seen far better adhesion with Spies/Hecker etch primer followed with urethane primer.

Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports http://communities.msn.com/Restorationphotos/homepage

What about powder coating? I have seveal freinds who routinely powder coated the sub-frames on their Camaros, along with suspension, fender wells, rear ends etc. They say it is cheaper for them to do that than sand blast, prep, and paint the items even when factoring no labor costs for painting.

Steve R.

I would do powdercoating before I would galvinize. I see no advantage to do it, it will never get everwhere, even if they say it will. My opinion is the same as GVMLS6, use good materials and you will be fine. I dont consider POR 15 good material either, it has its uses but it has limitations also.

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Micky Hale Restorations
69 L-89 Chevelle
68 Biscayne 427/425
34 Plymouth Drag Car
ACES #134
www.mickyhale.com (http://www.mickyhale.com)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve R:
What about powder coating? I have seveal freinds who routinely powder coated the sub-frames on their Camaros, along with suspension, fender wells, rear ends etc. They say it is cheaper for them to do that than sand blast, prep, and paint the items even when factoring no labor costs for painting.
Steve R.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

powder coating does not get up into the boxed sections of the frame. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif also rust can form under the powder coating from the pits that were not removed by sandblasting. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif galvanizing is cheap! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif I am going to take 800 pounds of stuff: 2 frames, 2 radiator supports, bumper brackets and some other stuff all for $200 !!!. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif it will get dipped in hydrochloric acid then galvanized. what's the "going to a lot of trouble to gain almost nothing" and "costing a lot of money about"? it would cost me $300 to get each frame sandblasted plus paints and lots of effort or $400 to get each one powder coated. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif The galvanizing coats inside and out and its getting dipped. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif the factory does it. there must be benefits. and the factory requiring that process of repairing is, in my opinion not an equal, it is just the next best thing you can do other then re-galvanizing it. I do not know exactly what method was used to galvanized the fences or the thickness in which it is applied. use boat trailers as an example of the longevity and durability of the process I am exactly talking about having done. they stay nice for many years of living a hash life being exposed to saltwater even.
I am sorry to ask a question then argue every point. I just don't want information miss-stated. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/confused.gif the facts are you can not beat the price. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif its getting cleaned for me and fully coated inside and out. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif I have the option to still paint it if I want. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif I guess no one here has done this to give personal testimony, but the galvanizing place says they do it all the time with no complaints. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif I will report what I learn from this because it is a learning experience for me, I will take the chance with it and hopefully be able to give a different way of doing something that has been overlooked here on TC. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif because obviously others are doing it and the guy at the place said he was surprised it was not more known about. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif
before: http://www.ctg.net/vagalvanizing/images/business2.jpg
after: http://www.ctg.net/vagalvanizing/images/plant.jpg

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Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering and people leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
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1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

[This message has been edited by FO_FDYFO (edited 04-12-2002).]

at my work, we fabricate a lot of large stuff that is galvanized (like 80+ foot long walkways).

Before the places will let you galvanize something, it has to have clear entry and exit points for the galvanizing liquid (the liquid has to be able to flow into all the structure as it is dipped and then flow out completely when removed).

Also, most of our equipment specifications call for all welds to be seal welds. Skip welding and tack welds will prevent the liquid from reaching all the surfaces, leaving a lot of potential for rust.

As mentioned earlier, warpage is the biggest issue. Most specifications call for a minimum 1/4" material thickness. The galvanizing process also magnifies any welding distortions. Even if the welds did not cause any distortion, the material will still warp some unless the welds are evenly balanced.

I doubt if you could modify your frame in such a way that it would not warp a lot.

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Charles Perrell
cperrell@yahoo.com
65 malibu SS Convertible
283 2v powerglide

i can appreciate that. that would make galvanizing cross members rather dificult. i guess i would have to put a hole at each end?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cperrell:

As mentioned earlier, warpage is the biggest issue. Most specifications call for a minimum 1/4" material thickness. The galvanizing process also magnifies any welding distortions. Even if the welds did not cause any distortion, the material will still warp some unless the welds are evenly balanced.

I doubt if you could modify your frame in such a way that it would not warp a lot.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You mentioned the temp of the vat would be 850degrees, did you realize steel will turn cherry red at 1200 degrees!

This is a real issue here and I think you should reconsider!

But it's your frame! Do with it as you wish!



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ACES member# 5093
Elcaminos are special!
I'd rather walk around with a Chevrolet hubcap in my hand than drive a Ford

Ole Paint (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/olepaint1)

Do it so we can see what happens! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif
Instead of Galvanizing, how about zinc plating?

Hope it all works out.
Later
Steve

james, thanks. i have looked and what happens to 1044 astm 572 steel at various temps. and you are correct about the color the metal emits at that temp range. however 850F does not excite the metal to emit any color at all. it is not going close to the limit that would alter the properties of the steel. i will definatly reconsider idf i have any factual info that says it would be detrimental.
wanarace, i'm pretty sure you were kidding but galvanizing is zinc. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

What "soak time" is required for galvanizing? I shouldn't think the frame would be in the vat long enough for significant heat transfer even if it was seeing something in the 1000F range (which would probably be the temperature the frame saw for post weld stress relief).

Good luck with your decision, keep us posted as to how it works out.

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67 396
SS clone

Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/rthlc/index)

We have to get beams and lintels dipped once in a while. The big pain for us is modifying anything afterwords (new holes, tack welds, etc.), ruins the galv., and the brush on stuff just flakes off after a while.

We have col/beams/lintels that look just as bad galv. as they do primed. Some worse.

With todays primers and such, galv is not as outstanding as it once was, not enough to justify the added cost for us. Of course we are set up for spraying and have to send out for dipping, which includes trucking ($$). But you have a handle on a good price, and you have to start from scratch anyways.

My opinion is that you may be the best case for dipping, you have enough stuff to do, at a good price. Just watch for clumps, and put your holes in before hand. Even holes you might use later. And get some touch-up from them for those unforeseen mishaps.

Go 4 it http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif



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Tommy B.
71-72 Malibu (http://www.geocities.com/beldarr/Chevelle.htm)
"I'm high all right, but on the real stuff
High octane gasoline
A clean windshield
And a shoe shine"

thanks rthlc and Beldarr. all of you, your input is very respected.
they only leave it in the liquid zinc long enough to have any hollows fill up with fluid. which could be a few seconds, then it is pulled out. the zinc is at 850F. so i would think that it is enough time to turn the entire frame to that temp. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif oh, and i have welded and drilled all i can forsee at this point already. if i need to weld i can just grind away the zinc coating and paint the area.

well I did it!!! i risked a few thousand dollars worth of frames (a 70 convertable and a 70 el camino). i gambled and won! here they are and they are great!!! inside and out. it cost me $175 for each frame, plus they thru in all the piece parts. 2 rad shrouds, 2 crossmembers, bumper brackets, 3 trailor hitches, all the radiator support brackets too. now i will look into having them powder coated or find a good zinc etching primer and paint. man they are clean inside and out. perfect bonding they ran it thru the process twice each to get all of the rust off. they did not have to drill any holes to get the fluids to flow through and drain out properly. it's like it was ment to be dipped. (maybe they were dipped in paint originally???). i am going to check all my dimensions and make sure it is still square and true but to the naked eye it looks perfect. i'm sure i will be doing more. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/framegal-07.jpg

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Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering and people leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
. . _________ . . . . . .. _________
.../___---___\ . . ____/|__|__\___\
(OO[=====]OO) {_______________|
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1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

[This message has been edited by FO_FDYFO (edited 04-24-2002).]

Sounds like it all went well, congratulations!



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67 396
SS clone

Daddy's Red Car (http://www.geocities.com/rthlc/index)

thanks, powder coating would still cost me $400 per frame. forget that.
I have been talking to paint manufactures about painting over galvanized metal. http://www.anchorpaint.com/ they have a revolutionary industrial water bourn primer specially made for galvanized metal 2700 series. you cant use oil based anything on galv. I found out thru several sources. this stuff is $14/gal I already ordered it! you spray down the frames with 50/50 water /vinegar to de-oxidize the zinc, then rinse w/water. cut the primer w/ water to spray. spray 2 or three coats, then top coat with anything. I will use rustoliums outdoor lawn furniture paint. that crap is durable! do not use POR-15 it will likely flake off, it does not like to stick to anything buy rusty steel or properly etched steel. I am staying away from it on this job.
I will post pics of the process. it seems like I will still come out spending less this rout with a better quality job then just sand blasting and POR-15, or powder coating.


[This message has been edited by FO_FDYFO (edited 04-25-2002).]

I noticed on the group purchase info going on in the brakes and suspension forum the link below for the upper adjustable rear control arms, that you can get them zinc coated! it says " zinc plated for corrosion resistance, they truly are overkill! "
http://www.bettercart.com/store/go?s=bmr&c=8538840_88261&b=&a=NONE&n=product&product=1463

this is encouraging. I will galvanize mine too then.
up date is, I have received my industrial galvanizing primer. I am rearranging things in my garage to get set up to check all my measurements to see if there was any warpage and get ready to paint. I will post updates.
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/framegal-07.jpg

I think that the frames and some of the other pieces are dipped at the factory originally.

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Leo Paugh
Maryland Chevelle Club #017
A.C.E.S.#3731
progress has little to do with speed, but lots to do with direction.
Maryland Chevelle Club (http://www.chevelles.net/mcc/mcc.htm)

well for anyone who has been following this, i measured the 2 frames that i had galvanized. they did not warp a bit! perfict! they are square and the distance between the upper a-arm mounts did not change. this was a concern and has been discused here: http://www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum7/HTML/003739.html

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I couldn't repair my brakes, so I made my horn louder.
Honk if you love peace and quiet.
I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.
www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
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1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

Those frames look pretty good just the way they are, looking forward to seeing them finished!

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Rod

67 396
SS clone

Daddy's Red Car (http://www.geocities.com/rthlc/index)

This my sound DUMB, But I in 500 years some
anthropologists will come across these two GM frames . and the Goverment will give him
a 2 Bizzilion dollor grant, to study and document the reason of there unique survival.

You've received several suggestions ranging almost the full gamut, so I'll toss in one more:
Many DIYer's operating with full or limited funds are finding Zero Rust ideal for just your situation. No absolute need to sand or media blast, dip or galvanize. Just treat with our Prep-Step to phosphatize and adjust the substrate's pH to ~6 will not only help clean up, condition and but enhance paint adhesion - regardless of what you coat with.
A gallon of ZR Black is $51 and its likely you'll have some left over, which is easily stored by adding 1/4 inch of thinner, a little Saran Wrap & pound the lid closed.
Just one more possible means of tackling the age old rust control problem.
WK Irish

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See ya' on the net at www.zerorust.com (http://www.zerorust.com)

here is the galvanized frame with the galvanized steel primer on it. i sprayed it with a gun and it went very well. i shot it everywhere i could reach. but first i had to chase a tap through all the fuel/brake line mounts and things to remove the zinc from the threads. that was easy. next i will have pics of it painted. i bought Rustolium water based latex paint as suggested for galvanized metal. it is satin black and chip resistant. its very durable and designed for outdoor furnature and such.
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/framechop05-13-02ccroped.jpg

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I couldn't repair my brakes, so I made my horn louder.
Honk if you love peace and quiet.
I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.
www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
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1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

As a career submarine officer I have seen the effects of salt water on powdercoated parts. They do fine, and unlike a boat trailer, are submerged in salt water. Sailors love it, since they don't have to continually chip and repaint. It seems the issue is getting the powdercoat into all areas of the frame. This is the advantage I see with galvanizing. What do you think of powdercoating on top of galvanizing? Will it adhere?

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TC# 1458
1971 El Camino
SB350/TH350
12 bolt posi
"If the car doesn't kill you, I will"

yes it will. i choose not to powder coat because for now it is just apearence. the protection inside and out is there, now i just want it to look good. because zinc will oxidize and dull as well as become very hard to clean. to powder coat the frame would have cost another $400 because the have to lightly sand blast the oxidization off too. just not worth it in this application for me. i think i am going to be very happy with my results. but yes they can powder coat it and it will stick. excellent marine use http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

pics of it painted now. http://members.aol.com/smartasreality/page5.html

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I couldn't repair my brakes, so I made my horn louder. :D Honk if you love peace and quiet.
Junk is something you've kept for years and throw away three weeks before you need it.
www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) updated 6-7-02 TC#1460, VCEA#2
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1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

Very sharp. Thanks for adding another restoration option to the Chevelle fan's bag of tricks.

Brian

Looking good 454!!

Joe

btt

I just wanted to say it looks real good. Let me know when you want to come do mine that way. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

GL

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Deon
72SS454 Clone
Website (http://home.sc.rr.com/deon)

thanks