How can I tell when my panel is perfect and free of dents when it's still in bare metal?
I'm being a perfectionist about this but it's really getting me down... I can't tell if my panels are perfect yet and I get really anal and can spend the whole day working on a dent half the size of a dime. so how do I know when it's going to look good?
and to what degree will primer cover inperfections? like... if there's a very tiny spot that I can barely feel, how will it look after it's primered and blocked?

block sanding the whole car is when you really get the car straight, but that doesnt come until after you have a coat of primer/surfacer over the whole car. Fix whatever dings/dents you have first, spray some primer/surfacer over the repair (you can use spray cans for this instead of mixing up paint), fog some black spray paint over the repair as a guide coat, and block sand the repair with some wet 220 paper. After sanding, low spots will show up with the black still showing, high spots will go to bare metal. Fill low spots, pick down hight spots, and prime/guide coat again. Get the repair so it blends smoothly into the panel. After all repairs are made, and the whole car has primer surfacer on it (I like PPG K200), again fog the whole car with some black spray can paint and block the whole car. Same deal, high spots will show metal, low spots will show guide coat. Fix and repeat..and repeat! Getting the car straight is the hardest work, but is important for a nice paint job. Just run you hand over each panel looking for problem areas to fix, get each repair done, and it will come out fine.

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Dave (NY)
70 chevelle ss396 conv
66 chevelle ss396 hdp/conv
72 chevelle
TC member #493
Never forget Earnhardt!

Actually, you cna "block" the bare metal with 180 and see it it has any low spots. If you can't see very well, add a guide coat. But after you run the block over metal, you'll see that it is pretty easy to see where it gets scratched more than other places.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

You can do it with bare metal but the guide coat is a no brainer.

I've seen some of Dave's work and it's real solid.

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Francis Taracido Gold# 201
sniper0666@aol.com
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.
Oh No! You Know She's Got To Go!
Go Go Quadzilla! <oo=+=oo>

I just wanted to comment on drptop70ss post. I'm currently involved in my first project, a 64 SS Covert, and I've used the exact technique. I think I've blocked the quarters about 6 times so far. Keep at it. My biggest suprise was after the 1st time I blocked it and just by eyeballing it I knew it was perfect....wrong!! The second time I blocked it I was convinced it was perfect...wrong. You get the drift. One thing is for certain, if I had settled for paint and had enough of blocking I would never be happy.

One method I used that helped me was: After you primer the surface so it has a consistent color finish, wet the surface with a wet rag to make it glossy and sight along it at the correct angle so light reflects into your line of sight.This will show any waves or dips. The wet glossy surface viewed with light at a certain angle will show imperfections like the final paint will. I think the key to successful blocking is to use a long board (sanding block/sandpaper holder about 10" long) where possible. For smaller, tighter areas use a piece of paint stir stick with the sandpaper wrapped around it.

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von '69 300 Dlx SS TC #15 ACES #1575
My '69 SS (http://sites.netscape.net/von69ss/homepage)

Quadzilla, I am not questioning Daves work. I was jsut answering the exact question Huck2020 asked in his post. The info Dave gave is good stuff, I just wanted to answer the direct question.


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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

I also think martinsr has a point that another top notch guy told me.. You want as much filler to be on bare metal as possible! Something about better adhesion to bare metal. so if you can block and fill the majority on bare metal you'll only have to add a few "Skim Coats" to low spots. and will not build up on primer. Another thing that might be worth looking into (but it's expensive) is a spray on body filler. The guy I have been watching sprays the whole car with this after his "final" blocking and re blocks the whole car. (any comments on this would be appreciated) he says the car is as straight as it can be at this point. and is ready for the final prime and paint! Not trying to start a "Who's Right" war here just trying to nail down best practices with some knowledgeable people on this board. I've seen martinsr's posts here and on other boards and I get the feeling he REALLY knows his stuff.. Lot too learn in here! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Man I love this board http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Guys, my technique is the same as MARTINSR, and like I said fix the problems with the panel while it is down to bare metal. What I was saying is that I dont normally worry about getting a panel "paint ready perfect" before final blocking, there are always a couple small imperfections that are found when blocking the whole car. I also agree with Vons statement about looking at a car wet, I always soak a car after blocking and look at the car. If it looks straight wet, it will look straight painted. I think we all agree that blocking a car is the secret to a good paint job, and patience is a necessary thing! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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Dave (NY)
70 chevelle ss396 conv
66 chevelle ss396 hdp/conv
72 chevelle
TC member #493
Never forget Earnhardt!

Hey normie, that "spray on body filler" is not expensive. It actually is very reasonable. Evercoat makes a few that are around $50.00 a gallon hardener included (which is simply MEKP) PCL has one for about the same which I prefer because they have a recommendation to apply it over an etch primer. Evercoat specifically states DO NOT apply over an etch, and I don't like the adheasion you get. With the PLC the etch gives it you great bite and corrosion protection.

The PLC brand can be found at NAPA stores (if they don't have it TELL them to order it, they get deliveries EVERY day from the distribution center) under the part number 15205 under the "econobody" label for about $60.00 a gallon or $20.00 a qaurt (which will go a LONG way). The etching primer is number 15210 and is $40.00 a gallon and $13.00 a quart. They also have Evercoats under the part number 5190. I have used these products a lot and seen them in the field used on everything from logging trucks to a car that is on the DuPont calender this year (yes a PLC primer used on a DuPont sponsered car!) It works great I have abused it like you can't believe and not had it fail.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 05-19-2001).]

Sorry if I gave away your secret martinsr http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif The guy I've been watching does ONLY restorations and his work is impeccable! the only problem is everything he works on doesn't come out of his shop for under 10 grand.. He does it right and has no problems telling you to go somewhere else if you think he's high! I'm doing some PC work for him in exchange for the learning experience. and bounce the other big ideas off you guys here! This is definately an art form. one that I am painstakingly learning by watching and doing! As always the opinions and suggestions are spot on! so thanks for the info! Huck you might want to spend a day reading most of the bodywork related threads.. I have, and have learned what not to do before I started!

With the guide coat idea I've found that blocking with a long air file helps tremendously. Long straight passes on straight parts. Get the picture. Too many people block with a small block and work a little area too long.

In my opinion, an air file will only get you close, you will still need to hand block the panel. Also, I never put filler over primer, I know some guys do but in the long run the adhesion wont be as good.
Use a long (12-15 in) sanding board and go over it several time. After its primed do it several more times until you dont see any darker or lighter spots.
Ron

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70 Chevelle SS396
66 Nova SS 327
95 Z28 Convertible.
Aces 3081, TC #54 Gold

Ron, applying plastic filler over epoxy primer is a recommended prochedure my most paint manufactures. I, like yourself have hesitated on the idea. But I have seen it work and it does work great. The adheasion is increadible. Epoxy primer will stick FAR better than a polyester resin (which is what plastic filler is). Like I say, I have yet to do it regularly, mostly because I am too lazy, but it does work.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

An air file will get you dead nuts closer than you think. I use a 80 grit on the filler finishing with a 180 grit and then priming with a uro primer. Wet sand with a 3x6 block and 400 wet, and I'm ready. You do it enough you don't need the guide coat.

red2rider, if you can get a panel straight doing that, you are a better body man than me! I have been doing auto body repair for 25 years and havn't owned an air board for 20! I found that it just didn't cut it. But I see people use them every day that do some good work, although they always follow up with a hand long board on the filler.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Hey guy's,

Lot's of good info, I will be starting bodywork myself for the first time and was wondering after you block the guide and you still need more filler. Do you really need to grind down to bare metal again or to the filler to add more?

Thanks
john

As long as the tech sheet for your filler says you can use the filler over the primer you have on the car. Thin smooth coats should be fine.. If you have some major filling to do it's best to hammer out the dent till it's as smooth as you can get it grind the area and then re-fill and prime.. Of course some of the more experienced fellas here will give better advise!

Hilljack, As far as when you have a low spot do you need to remove it all, a big NO. If you should have a low spot after you have primer on, I would think that it is very minor and you will need little filler. You can sand the primer off only where you need to add filler. I can tell you this, if there is some primer still there and it has been roughed up, it is fine. Just be sure it is cured, that is the biggie.

Here is a basic body filler overview that I post when this comes up.

What ever tools you use the trick is to not add the last "skim coat' till you KNOW that it is
all you need. Don't try to block out that first coat, just use it as a base for the LAST skim
coat.

I was taught this after doing body work for a number of years, just apply a nice coat of
filler. Cut that coat
NOT to make it perfect, but to get the basic shape and filling you need as a base for the
skim coat. You can cut it with 36 40 or 80 depending on how big the area you are
working is. In other words, if you can cut it fast with only 80 then do it. But I would say
that this would be limited to an application that is no larger than about 8 inches.

If you happen to have a few high spots, see if you can tap them down.
If you have a few low spots add a bit more filler to ONLY those spots.

Re-cut these last low spots you have just filled with the same grit you have been using
(most likely 36).

If you now have a surface that ONE skim coat will fill, then apply it. If you don't work
with it a bit more, but NEVER add a little here or there and think you will finish it
without a skim coat.

If you have a surface that is very close with only a few VERY MINOR low spots like
poor feathering onto the metal, poor transitions from one application of filler to another,
or from the metal that is "pokeing" up here and there you can do the LAST skim coat.

This skim coat is very important, you want it to extend over the COMPLETE area, this is
well past the damage you have been working. Maybe as much as 3 inches past the plastic
that you have applied to "rough" it out.

This skim coat can be regular filler or a polyester glaze like "Iceing" or "Polyester glazing
putty", that is your choice, I use both depending on the size of the area being worked.

You now run a block, long board, or hog even over this skim coat with a little bit coarser
paper than you plan on finishing with to cut off the resin that has surfaced in the filler. I
usually just use the 36 or 40 or what ever I have been on the "rough" work. BUT take
CAUTION not to cut much off, you want to JUST take the very top, don't really sand AT
ALL.

Now finish sanding with your longboard or block or hog or what ever using the finer
paper like 80 on a large area or 120 on that small 8" sized area. Block it out to perfection
with a nice feather edge to the surrounding metal.

I can't stress enough, the trick is to know when just ONE LAST skim coat will do the job.
And apply it COMPLETELY over the surface. If you only one little low spot in the
middle, DON'T just do it, skim the ENTIRE thing. You HAVE to have one LAST skim
coat over the ENTIRE thing every time. If you get in the habit of this you will do it over
and over on every dent you repair and find that you can do just about any dent with just
two applications. Good luck.

A little added note, I have found that I don’t use 36 or 40 grit at all anymore. I went to
work at a shop that didn’t use the coarser grits so I had to learn not to also. I have found
that using just the 80 and then finishing the Skim coat in 120 works great, even on large
panels.

At this shop it was the first time that I wasn’t doing my own primer work. This ment that
I couldn’t “cheat” with a lot of primer and blocking the body work “one more time”. I
found that I had to get the work PERFECT, then give it to the painter. I did this in an
interesting way, I look at the last skim coat as even a more “final” step. I now look it as
“primer”. You see I have used polyester primer, which is like spraying “bondo”. They are
both polyester resin based and act and sand very much the same. So, I figured why not just
“spread out my primer” as the skim coat! It has worked GREAT, the painter jokingly
says, “do you think I’ll need to prime this or just paint it?” I tell him, “Just clear it, it’s a
shame to hide that work under primer”.

This method has worked great for me, it’s more of a state of mind than a procedure.



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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Lots of great advice here. To get back to Huck's question, knowing when a panel is straight before it's painted. Your hands can tell you alot by runnning them across the panel. As far as the how straight the metal is before applying primers and fillers, you just want to eliminate all of the high spots and get the panel relatively straight. Let the fillers do the rest of the work. When you get to blocking, start with a 16" flat board sander (with the handle). Always keep a light touch. If you use too much pressure or force, the board will 'follow' the high and low spots and you'll never get the panel straight. On the final blocking, I use a 5 gallon stir stick from a house paint store cut ~ 8" or so and use sticky-backed 180 grit, then 220 paper.
Now, to know whether or not your panel is arrow straight, wet-sand the primer with 400 paper. Wipe it dry and 'eye it up' by looking down the panel with good lighting. Put your best eye close to the panel and look down it. Waves, ripples or bumps should be visible. I know guys who actually put a coat of single stage urethane PAINT on a car to look for imperfections. This is extreme, but a thorough way of detecting waves.
Can't wait to see it Huck. Got any 'in progress' pics?

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Triple Black 69 SS 396
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=1233564&a=9105086&p=37274567&f=0

MartinSR, I have also worked in a shop where someone else did the primer work, so I also had to learn to get it right without cheating with multple primer coats.
Great info, the way you spelled it out is the ONLY correct way to get a straight panel as far as I know. Good job.
Ron

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70 Chevelle SS396
66 Nova SS 327
95 Z28 Convertible.
Aces 3081, TC #54 Gold

hit the panel with a water hose after it's primed and let it sit a few seconds . Then look down the panel at a close angle and it will tell you if it's straight. However I wouldn't do this with the old style lacquer primers as they are not waterproof.