Hey guys, I received my March 2007 Car Craft yesterday and just finished reading the 496 they build that suppose to had made 707 HP @ 6400 RPM.

Now I sure the HP/TQ numbers are fudged a bit high like they normally are, but the motor is a cast crank, stock BBC rod, and cast piston combo.

Ignoring the fact that running a stock rod with a length of 6.135" with a 4.25" stroke doesn't sit well with me as rod to crank ratios go (1.44:1). The part that really would scare me a bit is spinning a stroker BBC that high with those quality of parts.

The crank most of all worries me at the RPM and HP range, then the rods, and pistons.


Or am I way off base and aftermarket cast cranks have come a long way?


Opinions guys?

Thanks!!

I read that article and got PISSED OFF!
the idea is that you can build a 700hp 496 for under $7000 right... WRONG!
they start by FINDING a REBUILDABLE 496 short block for $800 at a swap meet....
from that point on I just felt its just bogus B.S.......(not the build the article)
look you can build a 496 and make 700hp, "been there and done that a couple times now" but you sure can,t depend of finding a $800 ,rebuildable 496 core as a starting point, and for that reason I think the article is very mis-leading.
Id also agree that 6.385 rods and a forged crank are a far better choice if your spinning that BBC to almost 7000rpm

i just got done reading the article and like people said finding an 800 dollar stroker engine at a swap meet is B.S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a 468 that cost me $6000 including all machine work. I already had the block, intake, and carb. Everything else is new. Brodix BB-0 heads and Lukovich Rotating assembly.

Id also agree that 6.385 rods and a forged crank are a far better choice if your spinning that BBC to almost 7000rpm
I put 6.535 rods in my 540 for this very reason ;)

The magazine guys are nuts right now, they are building GRENADES and passing them off as cool stuff for cheap. I think we all know better than this at TC don't we? A good or great engine that is durable and bullet proof is not cheap.

This build sounds alot like that 350 PHR had on the cover a few months back that made 500 HP with a stock bottom end. :confused:

Finding the shortblock at a swap meet sounds bogus. However - Scat cast crank is $250, rods are $200, hyper pistons are about $200, good 2-bolt block should run about $300, that's only $950 before balancing and it's not a used shortblock. That's not all that far off. From there, it gets pretty dang unbelievable, though.

While I too am slightly more than skeptical when it comes to most magazine builds, I personally don't see anything wrong at all with them basing that article around a good swapmeet score. Those kind of deals are still out there, you just have to look for them.

Back in the "old days" before the internet and eBay, nearly everyone I knew was building budget-based engines around blocks, heads and cranks they stumbled on sitting in a corner or on a shelf somewhere at their local machine shop (or a local swap meet) and picked up cheap. While it's not like the "old days" anymore, I still manage to find plenty of bargains these days...you just have to look a little harder to find them than you used to.

I think that these days so many have gotten so used to the "luxury" of being able to call up their favorite mail-order speed shop and have whatever they want sitting on their doorstep the next day that they've forgotten what it was like to bargain hunt. I certainly wouldn't call someone else's build "BS" just because they found a killer deal on some parts. I say "good for them!" :thumbsup:

Common sense dictates that not everyone will have the same kind of luck they did to stumble on a complete 496 shortblock for <$1K, even if it did have some acknowledged issues and somewhat dubious components inside (for this sort of a build at least). I'm certain a similar combo based around a good 454-468 shortblock would still run quite well, and could easily be built for a reasonable budget.

And that's my $.02 on the matter. :beers:

Eric

Well i paid $150 for my 4 bolt block and $50 for the 049 heads bare. I havent read the article tho. LOL I only had to pay to have the block decked cause we had to send that out all other machine work was NC cause i worked there. LOL

A friend of mine found a marine 502 short block with low hours for $1100. It had a scored cylinder and needed new pistons. It saw salt water but so little run time was on the motor it didn't have time for the rust to do any damage. The guy said that the manufacturer payed for a new short block. Later he found a running vortec headed 350 boat motor for $400 , but the motor was to eaten by rust be be useful. He said win some lose some.

Look, I have about $38 to $4,000 in my homemade 496 that per D2k should make like 550hp at 5500 rpm and 580 t at 4500 rpm.

I figure I am a cam and kit away from 650 so go from there!!

And Ohio Crankshaft Company sell's an inexpensive forged 496 rotating assembly for what is it, $1200 or so!!

I will step up IF I ever do another BB to the BIG 588" jobber I'm always mouthing about if I was to ever do another one!!

4.625" b x 4.375" s = 588" in a 9.8" block!! I figure 700hp EASY!!! For like $8 to $9,000!! AND it sure the heck WON'T be a race motor by no stretch, but rather a great big powerful street motor just like my smallish now, 496 is!!

pdq67

I can't say much, I've been very lucky on finding good deals on stuff. Bare 781's for 50$, set of 781's(manufactured one day apart) very well built for 500$, 71 402 with forged crank and all the caps for 100$, 366 with forged crank and all caps 100$, 68 427 four bolt with crank and caps for 200$, 72 M-21 for 400$, 68 10 bolt free, 74 350 four bolt with crank and caps and heads for free, two sets of SBC camel humps for 25$, Ford 9 inch 75$, DevillBiss 60 gal. aircompressor for 50$. The down side is that I got reemed on my Camaro so I guess it kinda works out. Not to go against the grain, I just believe that if you take your time you can find whatever you want for whatever price you can afford. I do think that a lot of the times their are B.S. though.

In the land of NHRA Super Stock most of the guys run cast cranks because they are generally about 3-4 pounds lighter than the forged cranks and they twist the heck out of them.

My 468 had a 20-30 cast GM crank and polished 3/8 GM truck rods with ARP bolts, 2 bolt block. I ported, valve jobbed and built the 781 ovals myself and had about $4k in the whole thing. It ran a best of 6.29@108 in the 1/8th, same bottom end went 9.89@134 in another (heavier) car. I ran the same bottom end many years with no failures. It wasn't making 700Hp but it was well over 600. It can be done. The crank was bent slightly after one teardown, but was straightened. The caps walked a bit in the block but it always held together. I traded the shortblock to my machine shop for some of the machine work on my 489. It can be done, but you probably need to be able to do some of the work yourself.

Ignoring the fact that running a stock rod with a length of 6.135" with a 4.25" stroke doesn't sit well with me as rod to crank ratios go (1.44:1). The part that really would scare me a bit is spinning a stroker BBC that high with those quality of parts.



I have heard the only rod ratio that matters is 8:1. 8 rods per 1 engine.

As a guy who's written many engine build stories over the last decade, I can honestly say I have never, ever based any of my builds on used parts that have not been thoroughly refurbished.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find great pleasure in changing engines.

When CC was going through their 'Junkyard Shortblock' phase, it frustrated me because I would never, ever advise anyone to do so. It's simply too much of a gamble involving way too much time, effort, and additional expenses (like the brand new heads, cams, intakes, etc. they'd bolt on top of them) to honestly recommend to hundreds of thousands of hardworking enthusiasts. I cannot do it. I'd never trust a junkyard (or swapmeet) shortblock- period. If the price was REALLY good...I'd trust it LESS thinking something must be wrong with it for the price to be so low.

Maybe there's something wrong with my view of hot rod journalism...I don't know. Maybe it's because I've been answering reader mail (both 'mailbox' and 'tech letters') for the last decade, and I see how real people are about building their cars. They're willing to do it once, and may even follow some of the tips printed in the magazine. But if I were to recommend building upon a used shortblock, I KNOW I'd get tons of hate mail from readers who blew their stuff up, damaged their brand new heads, and hated me for recommending it.

I wouldn't do it myself, so I won't recommend it to you. That's my stance and I'm sticking to it.

Oh- I've also found that when I share prices on all-new parts, readers are able to duplicate the prices I publish with much more accuracy. Just because a pal of mine gave me a swingin' deal on parts doesn't mean I should publish that 'deal' as part of the overall 'price' - If it can't be duplicated by the readers, I'm not going to print it. It's just not fair to them.

~SP~

NO WAY NO HOW!!! I am sorry but these mags are no where near what they used to be. They all belong to the same publishing company now. The guys who made them great are long gone. Also they do not have to be held to any standard because there is no way to challenge their severely inflated claims to keep them honest. What sells mags??? A huge claim on the front page no one would beleive. So they buy it to see how they did it and it turns out to be BS!! But too late. You bought it! I was fed up with them all, especially PHR and CAR CRAFT 12 years ago and havent read one since. But I bet in the near future you will see the headline, "2000 hp out of your dads lawn mower engine. Blown and nitrous injected Briggs!!!! You can build at home for $35.00.

The B&S article has already been done at I think it was 34hp!!

I learned a lot b/c I didn't know how advance Jr.D. had become just using something akin to a 5hp B&S...

Neat to me!!

pdq67

As a guy who's written many engine build stories over the last decade, I can honestly say I have never, ever based any of my builds on used parts that have not been thoroughly refurbished.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find great pleasure in changing engines.

When CC was going through their 'Junkyard Shortblock' phase, it frustrated me because I would never, ever advise anyone to do so. It's simply too much of a gamble involving way too much time, effort, and additional expenses (like the brand new heads, cams, intakes, etc. they'd bolt on top of them) to honestly recommend to hundreds of thousands of hardworking enthusiasts. I cannot do it. I'd never trust a junkyard (or swapmeet) shortblock- period. If the price was REALLY good...I'd trust it LESS thinking something must be wrong with it for the price to be so low.

Maybe there's something wrong with my view of hot rod journalism...I don't know. Maybe it's because I've been answering reader mail (both 'mailbox' and 'tech letters') for the last decade, and I see how real people are about building their cars. They're willing to do it once, and may even follow some of the tips printed in the magazine. But if I were to recommend building upon a used shortblock, I KNOW I'd get tons of hate mail from readers who blew their stuff up, damaged their brand new heads, and hated me for recommending it.

I wouldn't do it myself, so I won't recommend it to you. That's my stance and I'm sticking to it.

Oh- I've also found that when I share prices on all-new parts, readers are able to duplicate the prices I publish with much more accuracy. Just because a pal of mine gave me a swingin' deal on parts doesn't mean I should publish that 'deal' as part of the overall 'price' - If it can't be duplicated by the readers, I'm not going to print it. It's just not fair to them.

~SP~

Thank you for posting this! :hurray:

You know, I hate the thought of beating the snot out of used/refurbed low end parts too, but I can tell you that there are more than a couple local low-budget builds that use parts that should grenade but somehow hold up season after season.

Have seen one cast piston bone stock 100k mile 350 Vortec motor (out of an Escalade I believe) hold up just fine to 200 HP of spray. According to everyone that knows there stuff he should have blown it up a long time ago . . . and if it does blow up he can go buy another for a few hundred more $ and throw the plate back on it.

Have seen one cast piston bone stock 100k mile 350 Vortec motor (out of an Escalade I believe) hold up just fine to 200 HP of spray. According to everyone that knows there stuff he should have blown it up a long time ago . . . and if it does blow up he can go buy another for a few hundred more $ and throw the plate back on it.

That doesn't suprise me. Back in '98 I ran a junkyard 350 from a '75 2500 van w/100,xxx miles. Leak-down test came back good so I changed the intake (Vic Jr), added a Holley 650 DP, mild hyd cam w/lifters, valve springs, and dropped it into my '69 Chevelle along with a 250 plate shot of nitrous. I don't know about your buddy, but I ran a seperate 1 gallon fuel cell filled with C-16 gas and was running a Crane HI-6 ignition box with in-car timing control.

Anyway, I ran this long block for two years and some 300 passes before swapping to a 427 BBC. After swapping to the BBC I pulled down the 350 and found out its a cast crank, 2 bolt block, and pistons/rings still looked good.

Originally Posted by GRUMPYVETTE View Post
Id also agree that 6.385 rods and a forged crank are a far better choice if your spinning that BBC to almost 7000rpm
I put 6.535 rods in my 540 for this very reason

6.8 here!

Yea their marketing gimmicks get old and actually serve to diminish those of us who have real decent combo's. What do you think your dumb ass friend says when he sees' the article? Hey man didnt you say you had $11,000 in your 496 and it makes about 700hp?, tricks on you man you coulda had it for $6500 tard!

sigh......


Shawn

You know, I hate the thought of beating the snot out of used/refurbed low end parts too, but I can tell you that there are more than a couple local low-budget builds that use parts that should grenade but somehow hold up season after season.

Have seen one cast piston bone stock 100k mile 350 Vortec motor (out of an Escalade I believe) hold up just fine to 200 HP of spray. According to everyone that knows there stuff he should have blown it up a long time ago . . . and if it does blow up he can go buy another for a few hundred more $ and throw the plate back on it.



...and that's great!

But, would you recommend everyone do so?

I'm sure people occasionally get lucky with an engine that was built properly on the assembly line, serviced regularly by the owner(s), and is modified with care and precision enough to withstand this kind of use and abuse...

However...

When recommending the 'right' way for others to build their cars, and specifically their high-output engines, you simply cannot recommend this path! You do everything right as an example of how it should be accomplished in a best-case scenario and you publish honest results.

People are going to 'cheat' occasionally anyway. They are going to do things their own way, use parts they got from wherever they got them, and cut corners here and there based on their own budgets and abilities.

If you're setting the example, it's your responsibility to do the best-possible job...period. If people choose to do otherwise, fine- it's on them.

But if I'm going to put MY name (and reputation) on it, you're going to see it done right. I don't leave much to chance- maybe because since I've been hot rodding (since I was 14, and I'm 40 now) I've seen too much. I've seen some of the best stuff go for stupid reasons...or sometimes no reason at all (at least that could be determined).

It's tough enough to make great amounts of power reliably even when you know everything is right. Trusting parts and pieces with unknown history is just plain stupid- especially in a 'magazine' situation where enthusiasts are looking for confident examples of how to do things right.

Buying used swap meet or junkyard shortblocks and bolting hot rod goodies on top of them without going through them completely is simply not the right way to do things. It might work great for some people, but I feel responsible to everyone who pays the cover price to read what I've written. I'm going to do my very best to show them the right way to do things.

I couldn't sleep if I did otherwise. This stuff just means too much to me.

~Scotch~

Hey guys,

I of course gravitated to this article because of the HP and the parts used. I pay little attention to the money involved.

My 496 is quite similar, and made just a tick over 700 on the rather conservative dyno my builder has.

Mine had the CNC chamber version of the AFR 305.
Slightly larger Comp XR roller. (basically 6 degrees longer, and it's on a billet core, not cast)
Different intake manifold and a Dominator.
And pistons with thinner rings.

All said, the diff in HP between theirs and mine could be accounted for by the dyno being used.

About the rather shakey short block......my engine builder wouldn't have let me even consider a cast crank, stock rods, or hyper pistons. He wouldn't have liked the stock 4 bolt mains either.....(we converted my 2 bolt block to splayed 4 bolt caps)

That said, I found the article quite plausible. It clearly showcases the potential of the AFR heads and Comp street roller.

I agree with Scotch completely regarding the used parts. Maybe that engine would run for a season or two at the drags, maybe not. If the bottom end fails, most of the rest of the high dollar parts would be reduced to scrap....all in the name of saving money.
Especially since an engine like this in a light car will go through 1st gear very fast and you will over rev it from time to time. Mine has seen 7000 on more than a few occasions. And when I do that by accident, I'm not thinking about my cast crank and stock rods.....

Mine cost just short of $10K including a day on the dyno. And along with that I get my engine builders experience. It was worth it. 2 seasons later it's running faster than ever!

Ron

i'VE FOUND
4.25 forged crank 150
h beam rods 200
pistons forged with gas holes 125
454 standard bore 4 bolt with stock rot.as 200
heads rec. port g.m. in box bare 315.
etc..

it's out there...

Mine cost just short of $10K including a day on the dyno. And along with that I get my engine builders experience. It was worth it. 2 seasons later it's running faster than ever!

Ron

STOP TORMENTING ME :)

My buddy is supposed to tear down my tranny this weekend! I'm getting the urge!!!!! I might can free up some money now that I have the $1952 in used car sales tax paid on my wifes Armada :(

Shawn

I wonder why Freiburger hasn`t chimed in? Oh yeah, he only does so when he wants an opinion for an article,event or to announce something great he is doing...... maybe his velcro sandals are too tight?

A 496 with approximately 700 HP can be built for under $7000 or right at it. Here's how:

Core-$350
Subtract-$250 from the core cost, that he sold the heads for on Ebay. He gave me the rotating assembly which would easily sell for another $150 on Ebay. Basically, he could have made money on the core and kept the block.
We'll say he is into the core for $100 since he didn't recoup any money from the rotating assembly. We'll assume this covered my "Dark Side Consulting Fees". Jake will soon be writing a book "How To Go Faster and Save Money with the BBC"

Short Block Components
Block-$100
Scat rotating assembly with 4340 forged crank and H-beam rods- $1700
TCI Flexplate- $61
ATI Balancer- $295
Flexplate Bolts- $6

Machine Work and Balancing
deck block, bore, torque plate hone, check main alignment, cleaning, etc- $457

Heads and Related
AFR 325 cc CNC chambers, angle milled shipped-$2414
Head Gaskets- $80

Cam and Valvetrain
Cam-$354
Isky Roller Lifters-$530
Pro-Comp Rockers- $245
Pushrods-$187
Timing Chain- $40
Cam Bearings- $30
Cam Button- $9
Cam Button retainer- $6
Valve Covers- Free but actual cost would have been $110

Fasteners and Misc
Head Bolts- $84
Main Studs-$65
Engine Bolt Kit- $37
Fuel Pump Blockoff Plate- $6
Gasket Set R.A.C.E- $22
Timing Pointer- $29

Oil System
Melling Race Oil Pump- $59
Oil Pan_ $69
Oil pump shaft- $9
Windage Tray-$22

Intake and accessories
Vic Jr. Intake-$218
Intake gaskets-$16
T-stat housing- $12

Headers
Hedman- $187
add a water pump at $15, engine paint, sealant, filter, oil, etc. call it $50

Totaled up we have-~$7500 not including a carb or ignition system, although part of the package, not part of the engine.

This is a 496 cid combo with all forged rotating assembly, SRP pistons, Scat crank and rods, top of the line balancer, best "out of the box" heads, streetable compression at 10.7-1.

I could build this combo somewhat cheaper by using Scat I-beam rods and Probe pistons, putting the rotating assembly at $1450. Saving $250. Additionally, some expense could be saved by using the larger domed pistons to bring compression to 12+-1 and no milling required on the heads. I believe milling was a $150 option. That puts the heads at $2260, these heads can be bought even cheaper without the CNC option but I think it is worthwhile. A cheaper head could be used Canfield, Brodix, etc.
Using a Jegs SFI balancer for $220, saving $75.
Using the stock flexplate bolts and misc engine bolts, t-stat housing, etc.- saving $84
I can save approximately $50-75 or more on a custom ground solid roller cam, billet core, everwear gear, same quality. Saving $50 minimum.
I can get Crower SD Hippo Lifters (street use) for $515 or Crane Lifters (track only) for -$330. Saving $15 to $200.
I can save approx $30 on the pushrods.
I would use a lower cost stock M77 pump for $20, saving $49
I would use a stock GM windage tray at $11, saving $11
You could easily save money on the valve covers by using stamped steel or aluminum valve covers such as these for $35- http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY...QQcmdZViewItem
Saving $75...
By using a knock-off intake you can save $50 from $220-$170, or possibly using a used swap meet find for even less. Plenty of BBC intakes floating around on Ebay.

Quick estimate is $820 saved minimum and without compromising the reliability of the package.

GrumpyVette,
What happened to your post on the other forum, after I posted this I guess it mysteriously disappeared. I notice a trend on that forum if anybody posts in disagreement with you.
Notice the actual prices that anybody can get in my complete list.

My 511 build is just about done and when I saw the article I decided to add it all up. Almost all new parts with a machined Gen4 block. Mine is about $6000. Aluminum heads and all forged rotating assembly. We'll see what the HP makes in a month or two, if I can get some dyno time.

When I saw the CC piece, made me think hard about the PHR 468 we're doing. It's a legit motor, but the whole think hinges on buying that short-block at a swap meet for $800. The ignition for $25 was also a factor.

I thought about trying to do the same thing, but realized that most guys would shout foul at it. If PHR does things by the book, readers can make up their own mindwhether they can skinny-down the budget with swap-meet stuff.

At the end of the day, stories like the CC & PHR build-ups are really supposed to get people to think about the individual parts in the combo, and how they might use them in a different situation. Nobody replicates a magazine build-up part by part. The next guy who does it will be the first.

Setting miscellaneous facts straight: PHR made 447 hp with a Vortec 350, not 500 hp. Big difference on stock rods and pistons.

Our 468 will make in the neighborhood of 600 - 620 hp when done. That's a far cry from CC's 707 hp. This is a big factor in choosing rods, pistons, etc.

dont know where you all go to swap meets at but i live in california and i hit turlock pleasinton wx freeway arc and rio college swapmeets woodland and sometimes all the way to pomona and i see tons of useable big and small block stuff up for really cheap. last saturday i coulda bought 2 standard bore 454 blocks for 275 each 2 bolt mains , i seen a standard bore gm 502 block for 650 and many sets of heads for under 1100 bucks that were alum lots of iron ones for a 2-500 dollar range and even some cranks for 3-600 bucks . swapmeet deals are plentiful you just have to look and go to everyone . as for cast parts yeah sure you can make 700 plus hp with them and i know alot of people who have motors that have straight junk parts in them that make huge hp numbers .BUT most of them are old men that never really use that power they just tool around and talk huge piles of dooo knowing full well if they ran that stuff hard it would fall apart and or break . making power for cheap is and can be easy the question is how hard are you gonna run that cast stuff. ? a guy a few blocks over from me just built him a 540 using a 502 block a cast steel crank etc makes about 650 hp but it will run forever for him cause he will proably never mash the pedal far enough to see 600hp LOL and he was like 6300 into the whole motor on a tight budget it sure looks nice in his lil t bucket , im hoping i can get him to take me for a spin and mash it some any 540 in a tbucket has to be fun.

"GrumpyVette,
What happened to your post on the other forum, after I posted this I guess it mysteriously disappeared. I notice a trend on that forum if anybody posts in disagreement with you. "

jakeshoe

aqs you know, I have no more control at all on that forum than you do, and as your well aware the moderator seems to have a marked dis-like of you posting there, if you notice ITS NOT just when YOU disaggree with me... its when you disaggree with nearly ANYONE on that forum, while I don,t always aggree with your point of view, I find your posts worth reading, and many good points of info!

jakeshoe

aqs you know, I have no more control at all on that forum than you do, and as your well aware the moderator seems to have a marked dis-like of you posting there, if you notice ITS NOT just when YOU disaggree with me... its when you disaggree with nearly ANYONE on that forum, while I don,t always aggree with your point of view, I find your posts worth reading, and many good points of info!
Grumpy,
I posted that before I spoke with you last week.

The mod in question over there.. Leave off the "dr", replace the "h" with a "c" and you have an accurate description.

Bump......

Bump......

Like your car allot.
Had a 75 Z almost 30 years ago.
Yikes.
Have fun.:thumbsup:

Put all the cheap parts you want in there (read non-forged). Just let me know when you are going to pull the pin so I can duck.......

what's the "other forum" they were talking about?

I have heard the only rod ratio that matters is 8:1. 8 rods per 1 engine.

Intersting that you post this...I'm not an experienced engine builder so I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but a while back I read an article by a famous engine builder (Reher-Morrison maybe?) where the guy said exactly the same thing. He said rod to stroke ratio was a bunch of hooey, as long as the ratio is within some very wide parameter all the rod does is connect the piston to the crank, and that's it.

You know, I hate the thought of beating the snot out of used/refurbed low end parts too, but I can tell you that there are more than a couple local low-budget builds that use parts that should grenade but somehow hold up season after season.

Have seen one cast piston bone stock 100k mile 350 Vortec motor (out of an Escalade I believe) hold up just fine to 200 HP of spray. According to everyone that knows there stuff he should have blown it up a long time ago . . . and if it does blow up he can go buy another for a few hundred more $ and throw the plate back on it.

ya my buddy ran a stock rebuild with flat tops and even the stock bolts. Put some ported fuelies and a nice solid tappet cam and ran the piss out of it.

maybe his velcro sandals are too tight?

That's pretty funny. Whatzit mean? Pretty funny, though.

You know "THAT" forum.

what's the "other forum" they were talking about?


Tom,
The "other" forum is HybridZ.org.
It would be a decent place if they didn't have a Nazi moderating. Here's the post myself and Paul (grumpyvette) were discussing.

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=118365

Dr Hunt has issue with me there. He is the ALMIGHTY of the HybridZ forum nd you can't state an alternate opinion because you might prove Dr Hunt wrong.

Couple of other interesting posts there:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=109377&highlight=machine

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=105800&highlight=machine

Tom,
The "other" forum is HybridZ.org.
It would be a decent place if they didn't have a Nazi moderating. Here's the post myself and Paul (grumpyvette) were discussing.

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=118365

Dr Hunt has issue with me there. He is the ALMIGHTY of the HybridZ forum nd you can't state an alternate opinion because you might prove Dr Hunt wrong.

Couple of other interesting posts there:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=109377&highlight=machine

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=105800&highlight=machine

I too had serious issues with the mods and admins over there until my BBZ project was taking serious forum. But before that it was common place to have my posted edited or deleted if I didn't agree with another member that was friends with the admins. I was even banned for a time.

I always loved the arguments with other members who state nothing but opinions and what they heard from someone else (2nd or 3rd hand) whom is the authority on the subject (but remained nameless). When I would disagree with cold, hard, and documented facts my posts would disappear and then they would post a final word and lock the thread.

Since then I have achieved somewhat of a following among Hybridz members because I have done something few have completed before me (in the same fashion, no motor plates, tube frame, stock IRS) with a little Datsun Z, the mods & admins seem to leave me alone now. I am not complaining though.....

Personally Jake, I've agreed with 99.9% of the things you have stated. Although I have noticed how one admin likes to single you out Jake, I guess everyone needs a hobby, eh?

Personally Jake, I've agreed with 99.9% of the things you have stated. Although I have noticed how one admin likes to single you out Jake, I guess everyone needs a hobby, eh?

Yep,
If the one guy knew what my "hobby" was, he wouldn't play games. I'll play his game sometime...

Jakeshoe: let me jump in here and submit this for whatever it's worth. In 1959, we built a 352 SB with a 4" bore and a 3.5" stroke using a 283 block and small journal 283 rods. (Big journals not invented yet.) Some clearancing had to be done but it was not major, no water was hit. The block was 57 or 58, as it had side mounts. 327's hadn't been invented yet. Of course, the crank was a welded 283, but I don't see why Dr. Hunt doesn't see how a 3.480 stroke will work in the same place a 3.5" stroke will work. Since I KNOW this HAS been done, it can be done. I bet that guy at the Chevy dealer never built one either.

Does he also know that Lefty Muddersbach built 4"X4" 402 CI small blocks in the mid 60's?

Sometimes being old is a good thing.