PHR "Howitzer" Budget 468 BBC Build-Up [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: PHR "Howitzer" Budget 468 BBC Build-Up


Johnny Hunkins
Jan 5th, 07, 2:46 AM
Here's an update on PHR's budget 468 big-block build-up. The goal is to put this into our '68 Chevelle and run 11s on pump gas. At first, I thought we could build a 600+hp engine for under $4,500, but unless we resort to swap meet s or used eBay parts, I don't think we can get there. In the past, some readers have been pretty critical of found bargains, so I think we need to stay with all new stuff, except the core (4-bolt Mark IV block, crank, rods).

The assembled heads are Summit's new private-label pieces (2.25/1.88 valves, 308cc runners, 119cc chambers, .300-inch raised ports), which you may recognize as the small square-port Dart Iron Eagles. These are the same ones Vizard used in the Sept. issue, only with the Summit name. He got 675hp using a solid roller cam, a Dominator carb, and lots of valve lift. This new motor will be quite a bit cheaper (by about $2,000), and I think 550 hp is reasonable.

You'll also noticed that I largely resisted the urge to go "Chinese." Some pieces are imports, but the important stuff is US-sourced.

Feel free to comment, ask questions, or offer alternatives. If you do have alternate ideas, please post your part numbers, sources, and real street prices as I have done here. (Mostly Summit and Jegs pricing listed).

Let it fly...

"The Howitzer"—468 BBC Parts List:
Part: Price:
454 Mark IV core $600
KB Hypereutectic pistons, .060-over (10:1 comp) $292.69
Rings: $207.95
Main Bearings: $17.39
Rod bearings: $13.69
Cam bearings: $19.95
Cast iron heads, complete: Summit/Dart $1,291.90/pair
ARP Head bolts: $55.95
Edelbrock Performer RPM Airgap $235.88
ARP intake bolts $24.95
850-cfm “Crate” Speed Demon $459.99
Carburetor stud kit: $3.69
Cam: COMP Magnum 292/292, 244/244 @ .50 $163.69
Balancer bolt kit: $7.95
COMP Pro Magnum lifters $89.95
Timing set: $37.95
PRW 1.8:1 rocker arms $234.50
Pushrods (intake, 3/8 dia.): $56.95
Pushrods (exhaust, 3/8 dia): $56.95
MSD Street Fire HEI $159.99
MSD 8.5 Super Conductor wires $75.95
PRW flexplate $59.50
PRW alum. water pump $94.50
Autolite plugs $27.76
Intake gaskets: $10.95
Head gaskets: $79.90
Exhaust gaskets: $16.95
Gasket set: $58.95
Water neck: $7.95
Expansion plug kit: $14.99
Valve cover breathers $13.76
Timing cover: AAMidwest $14.02
Oil pan: AAMidwest $60.44
Valve covers: AAMidwest $35.52
Engine paint: $5.99

Machine Work
Jet wash block: $95
Block bore & hone: $250
Cam bearings: $40
Deck resurface: $80
"Build-it-yourself" Total: $5,074.09

2cool
Jan 5th, 07, 3:38 AM
OK I'll reply let me get my flame suit on first....


I don't really like that cam had one lost a lot of power from my crane pick just me.
I feel like theres a good 20-25hp in using gapless rings.

If I were buying heads I would be hard pressed not to buy aluminum heads for a few hundred more.
The weight savings alone will be worth speed at the track.

RUQKENF
Jan 5th, 07, 5:13 AM
When is this going to start being published?
Tony

dreis454
Jan 5th, 07, 6:44 AM
I agree with 2cool on the cam. Why not use a newer style cam such as the Comp XE,Lunati voodoo or Cranes zcam series? your leaving power & drivability on the table.

forcd ind
Jan 5th, 07, 7:18 AM
are you going to balance the engine?
we did a deal on going cheap-we bought a used engine, only needed a fresh up, came in around $3500 total, made 561 hp on the consv. side, but had a street friendly cam

BillsCamino
Jan 5th, 07, 7:33 AM
Some of these prices are a little out of wack aren't they??

Rings- $207
but Main bearings are only listed at $17 and Rod bearings for $13 :confused:

von
Jan 5th, 07, 7:39 AM
The core's rods and crank were left untouched? I'd think replacing the rod bolts with ARP's and recondioning them would be very wise. A $5k build isn't what I 'd consider low budget.

mr 4 speed
Jan 5th, 07, 7:56 AM
I agree on the cam.
A total of $486 for a f/t tappet cam,lifters and roller rockers???

The Lunati cam/lifter kit LUN-60205LK is $189 (241/249 @.050 .572/.590 110 LSA)
Summit long slot rockers SUM-G6803 $77
Savings is $260 and you get a better cam.
Roller rockers aren't needed.
What is the deal with $108 in gaskets plus you bought a gasket set for $58? :confused:

Everything else looks good.
..and what is up with those rings??

RATtyCamino
Jan 5th, 07, 8:30 AM
This will be interesting, I've been wanting to know how the Dart/Summit Iron heads run for quite a while. Seems there's a lot of mis-information about them. Looking forward to the article. I think the general feeling about these heads is that they are a little big (308CC) for a mild 454, but I have a feeling they will surprise us. They've got to be an order of magnitude better than just running a stock rec port. My prediction is that they will have similar performance to the "roval" heads that are out there but with a little more RPM capability.

Bill

GRN69CHV
Jan 5th, 07, 9:17 AM
I had a set of the early Merlin heads here that I never used and ended up selling. They were the same as the Dart (before Dart and World split - if I have this right). The ports were an overall smaller rec port. I always thought that head with a piston to get a true 10/1 CR and a decent cam in the 230- 240 range would have made a real nice street motor.

chevguy65
Jan 5th, 07, 9:36 AM
Not gonna say anything except 5 grand is NOT a budget motor, unless your a mag editor on a 6 figure income. You still have assembly and install expenses, so really your around 6-6500 complete. Oh yeah add another 2-300 for balancing, and I would think you are going to dyno it so add another 500-1000 and now your well over 7 K.

3-4 K is more of a budget buildup imho.

Otherwise Johnny, go for it, we all want to see what you do on this one.

GOSFAST
Jan 5th, 07, 9:41 AM
Hi John, some guys up here take ALL the facts religiously, you got to be real careful. There's definitely "whittling-room" available, but there's going to be addition's as well. I doubt you'll get a 454 MK-IV core around here anymore for any price, they've mostly dissappeared!

Just some missing labor, pressing pistons, balancing, rod recon, highly possible crank grind, and parts, (possibly) "SFI" balancer, but I figure being "in the business" you're aware of most of this already. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. (O/T) Just for my own info here, are you the "editor"? Last people I remember there was a "Pete", then a "Doug". And Steve R. (I believe) was doing the "photo-shoots". He "hung" out here on Long Island with a good friend of mine, Tommy V (Super-Pro). Tommy's STILL street driving his unit as well, a '62 SB Vette (10.50's) with a 1990 built unit. Years ago, between 1990 and 1996(?) I had a "whole mess of units" in PHR. Two specific's come to mind here, the July, '92 (Evolution/Pontiac) and the Sept. '94 issues. If you have access to the Sept. issue specifically, check out the Red/White (black & white photo) '56 Chev. Back then his car ran 10.35's @ 133 MPH at about 4000#, with the 427" under the hood. Very same car, different unit, this past year running 9.30's on some "streeters". This one I'm doing a new unit for at this time. BDS at the time helped "donate" an updated blower. The car now leaves 3 ft. in the air and comes up 1 ft. again when he bangs 2nd! It's a real "crowd-pleaser" still. I mention this info briefly here because I assume this would be the kind of "stuff" you still "hunt" down? Correct? Gary

pdq67
Jan 5th, 07, 9:56 AM
I was going to say use real forged pistons regardless and stock rockers is all.

Cam, that's anybody's guess as to what they like and how much power and "knarliness" you can stand for a street motor..

And btw, for more easy power, build a 496!! And I 've got like $38 to $4000 in my per D2k, MILD, 9.8 to 1 CR., homemade 550hp/496........

And there's a lot more power to be had out of it if I want to step up later....

pdq67

496malibu
Jan 5th, 07, 2:19 PM
As for heads why not run what most of us budget guys are, 049 or 781 with bigger valves. and a little home clean up.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 5th, 07, 5:17 PM
As far as budget goes, unless I go "Chinese," this parts list looks pretty legit. Keep in mind, I'm itemizing most everything. The bottom line is, when it comes to big-blocks, not much is truly "budget." Insofar as a big-block can be built cheaply and still make any power, this is right at the limit. As a point of reference, a 502 HO crate motor makes 450hp, costs $6,100, and still needs a carb, ignition, and an electric fuel pump.

To answer other questions:

Ring sets vary widely in price, these are on the high side because we felt there is power in superior sealing. I will look into some cheaper rings. We could save potentially $100 or more.

Aluminum heads: Other than the Edelbrock heads (which are just over $1,500 assembled), anything decent costs another $800 a set--enough to pay for the intake, carb, and most of the gaskets. I've seen iron-headed cars run in the 9s, so I'm not convinced aluminum is a panacea.

Cam profile: We decided to use a milder Magnum lobe based on the valvetrain loads. This could turn out to be a bad decision, but we have a trick up our sleeve in that we're having this cam ground on a 108 degree LSA. Vizard thinks this will be worth 20hp over the "box stock" 110 LSA. The magnum lobe is a decision based on lengevity. We are giving up power though.

Balancing etc: Based on the low rpm of this engine (under 6,000 peak), we can save big bucks by going external balance and reusing the stock damper and flexplate. When we put it in the car to race it, we may upgrade, but for a street guy just wanting the power, it ought to be fine.

Rod bolts: stock Chevy rods are practically indestructible at this power range. Rod bolts and resizing will add about $150 to the overall price.

Press-fit pistons: Easy to do at home. Put the pistons in the oven and the pins in the freezer. You've got about 30 seconds to assemble 'em in before they lock up. Having them done professionally isn't that expensive anyway ($50 - $60)

Gaskets: You can buy a one-size-fits-all gasket set to get all the little stuff, but you still need special exhaust gaskets, head gaskets and intake gaskets regardless. There will be left-over pieces, but at least we'll have all the right parts. The object is to avoid a hundred trips to the auto parts store.

Rockers: Based on initial flow numbers from the Dart-version head, a 1.8 ratio rocker will pay off. I wanted to use some cheap Magnum-style roller tip rockers, but they're only made in 1.7s. The $100 extra will pay off with another 15 - 20 hp (based on the extra cfm we expect to get at .582 versus .550 lift). I also think that optimized pushrod geometry might boost this ratio to more like 1.82.

Whittling room on price: This morning, I discovered I could probably squeeze another $100 out of this with a Summit brand HEI and plug wires, and use a Holley Avenger 870 for the Demon 850. A cheap set of rings might shave another $100. With this, the bottom line would go below $5,000.

Should I dial Chairman Mao? Or do you prefer domestic? In any case, budget for a big-block is bound to be pretty close to $5K. Keep in mind, we haven't built anything yet--we're still in the planning stages, which is why I'm asking these questions now.

Still looking for legitimate places to save dollars...

mr 4 speed
Jan 5th, 07, 6:05 PM
John,
why even deal with 1.8 rocker and the 108 LSA when the better cam with more lift will do it for less money and make even more HP/TQ than the Magnum cam :confused:

..just change the cam and use the long slot rockers..more shock value too :D
My suggestions are REAL savings.Save some money get more HP :thumbsup:

BTW,The last $58 Fel Pro complete gasket set for a BBC I bought from Summit had all the gaskets I needed except for $16 header gaskets.


You don't need an aluminum water pump or hi dollar sprark plug wires either.
Figure another $100 so I just saved you $468 total and made more HP if you follow my suggestions ;) :)

and I didn't mention Chinese stuff either

Jason Snyder
Jan 5th, 07, 6:15 PM
HEY, i think the isky mega 292 is ground on a 108 lsa .real similar cam?

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 5th, 07, 6:23 PM
OK, "just change the cam and save $468" doesn't help me. Part numbers please...

von
Jan 5th, 07, 7:55 PM
If it's really a low budget build forget the aftermarket heads and just do a valve job and respring on some stock large ovals like 049's or 781's. The high dollar heads could easily be added later. Also forget the roller rockers and alum water pump. Big blocks are hard on cams. Why make things worse with 1.8 rockers? A $25 rebuilt stock pump and stock long slot rockers will work just fine. Then stock valve covers will work too. Also a plain old 3310 Holley, 750 cfm vac sec would also save some bucks.

pdq67
Jan 5th, 07, 8:12 PM
Johnny,

Cheap for guys like me....

Now might be a good time to try out the complete $1200 aluminum rect port heads from Powerhouse!!

pdq67

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 5th, 07, 8:20 PM
Are you kidding? There are assembled aluminum BBC heads for $1,200? The pair?

chevguy65
Jan 5th, 07, 9:56 PM
Should I dial Chairman Mao? Or do you prefer domestic? In any case, budget for a big-block is bound to be pretty close to $5K. Keep in mind, we haven't built anything yet--we're still in the planning stages, which is why I'm asking these questions now.


Your talking 5K in parts and machine work right?
What about labor, assembly and dyno costs?

Labor 1500-2000, dyno 800.00 now your upwards of 8 grand

Somehow this does not sound like a budget BBC.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 5th, 07, 10:18 PM
The machine work listed has to be farmed out, but there's no reason why you couldn't assemble this in your garage. That's basically what we're doing.

As for the dyno, would you read our story about an engine build-up if we didn't dyno it?

Part of the budget idea is this: We give you the recipe, you build it identically to ours, and you don't have to dyno it. You save the money.

If I build a pile of junk for $2K, use a bunch of swap meet parts you can't find, then I don't dyno test it, you're telling me you'll be happier?

I looked at the '65 Chevelle in your sig, and it's a nice one. If you tell me you'd consider putting essentially a rebuilt salvage motor like the one I just described into your car, I'd have to call BS. Now help me to prove your point, not mine, and tell me where I'm going wrong on my build sheet.

chevguy65
Jan 5th, 07, 10:38 PM
I am not saying your wrong and no I would not put junk in my 65.

I just think it's more than what I would think of as a budget motor.
I personally do not have room in my garage for assembly, 4 cars and a 2 car garage and my 65 gets dibs on the best spot.

I agree you need quality parts, no chinese crap, but I think we were all hoping to see it come in a little less.

I am personally wanting to do a BBC for my 65 and was excited to see what you could do it for.

I just passed on a 468 that was all forged bottom end for $3500.00 because it did have cheap parts in it.

But I also know of a guy that can build a 475 bbc long block for 4 grand and it dynos with carb and dist at 570HP. Now by the time a carb, dist, headers etc. are added it would run around $5900.00 to a skosh over 6 grand turnkey.

sleeper
Jan 5th, 07, 10:46 PM
Why use a hydraulic cam? You are limiting rpm with the hydraulic lifters, less vacuum at idle, and a rougher idle.

Comp has the 294S solid cam that is comparable but will do everything better. It is a dash 4 cam, the same as the 292, so the pricing will be the same. I have run both cams and the solid is far the best for both street and strip. It could also be ground on 108 if needed.

I agree with pdq on the forged pistons. Either the 2465 or the 2399 Speed Pro forged pistons can be bought for about $400. The 233K moly rings are $46 and more than adequate for what you are doing.

Putting in new rod bolts and resizing the rods is a must, at least that is what all magazine articles lead us to believe???

Buy a good used intake off Ebay, you can find a good Weiand or older Edelbrock for 1/2 of a new price and there will not likely be 15 horsepower difference. One of the old school single plane Edelbrocks that the carb sits at a 45 degree will run much better than you think.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 5th, 07, 10:48 PM
Can you have your guy spec out his motor with the carb, intake and ignition? If he can build and dyno what you're talking about (and save me the trouble of doing it myself), then I think everybody on this forum would agree, that's a story we should document and publish.

I'm still skeptical until you give me his phone number though. Sounds like I need to talk to him. Your price on the forged short-block sounds about right. My production-based short-block (assembled at home, machine work farmed) would run about $2,000.

As for used parts from eBay or swap meets, I would get death threats, just like I did when we published David Vizards "Street Beast" big-block build in the August and September 2006 issues. When you score the killer deal, either nobody believes you, or they're pissed because they can't find it.

As for pistons, the KB hypereutectics are plenty strong for this, as I'm not running nitrous or boost. This decision I can easily defend on several fronts. As for driveability, the hypereutectics will actually be quieter, experience less start-up wear, and be prone to less oil consumption, as they will expand and shrink less. I'll also save a few bucks.

On the roller cam versus flat-tappet, I will have to look at that, cost it out (with real part numbers and dollars attached), and will get back to you on that.

ratuned
Jan 5th, 07, 11:05 PM
looks like a great build. the only 2 things I would change is dump the roller rockers and substitute an older ultradyne solid flat tappet cam. might want to reconsider the use of oval port heads(merlins). i think that even the 308 runners might be a little large for your intended rpm. cool build either way. it would be great to see what it would do properly setup and tuned. mike

chevguy65
Jan 5th, 07, 11:39 PM
Johnny,

I will call and talk to him tomorrow and ensure he can still do this.
He has a great shop and does all of his own machine work and dyno testing.
I will have you his phone number after I get in touch with him tomorrow.

In the mean time have a good night!

2cool
Jan 6th, 07, 4:29 AM
When I was broke I never bought bolts of any kind ,I always cleaned them with wire wheels and chased the threads.

Theres almost a hundred bucks off your budget.

I like shim head gaskets but I don't think I would tell kids reading a magazine to use them.

If you want power stay away from those 3310's.

If you want longevity go with some roller rockers those larger cams with stock rockers really eat up valve tips.

The first time I took a car to the track with a hot motor thinking I was going to tear em up I spun through second gear turning a 13.90 boy was I disappointed ,I then learned I had way more stuff to buy to get that power on the ground and down the track.
So if your going to prove your ride is as fast as advertised your going to need at the least some gears and tires right?
You cant do good burn outs with out a line lock of some kind and on and on and on.
Sounds like a mini series coming on like maybe 3 parts to get into the 11's.

You might need to do some hand grinding on your stock heads to save enough $ for rubber and at least some 4.10 gears.

RUQKENF
Jan 6th, 07, 5:53 AM
I would not buy any parts off ebay for this. I would use all new parts with real world pricing from summit or jegs, because that is where alot of people buy parts. I think it is a great idea for the magazine. I look foward to reading about this.
I was actually reading the article on David Vizards car tonight at work for the second time and I do believe he got those deals because I ran into some pretty amazing deals myself when I built my 69. By the way, that was a great article.
Tony

mr 4 speed
Jan 6th, 07, 8:09 AM
OK, "just change the cam and save $468" doesn't help me. Part numbers please...

Johnny,if you read my first post I posted the part numbers for the cam/lifters and the rockers :)
The $468 savings isn't just based on the cam/lifters and rockers..you need to read what I post :)



The Lunati cam/lifter kit LUN-60205LK is $189 (241/249 @.050 .572/.590 110 LSA)
Summit long slot rockers SUM-G6803 $77
Savings is $260 and you get a better cam.

chevguy65
Jan 6th, 07, 2:13 PM
Johnny,

Sorry I wasted your time.

It seems this guy has enough business now that he doesn't think needs the publicity and boost to business this would give him, although he has stated to me in the past that he did.

I am fairly pissed at him now because of him putting me in this situation.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 6th, 07, 4:39 PM
Don't sweat it. I'd say "no" if I were in that guy's position too.

I've been thinking a lot about the solid roller cam some of you guys mentioned. Last night, I spoke with Vizard, Dulcich, and Dennis over at Shavers, and based on what they said, I think it may be cost effective to go that route instead of the flat tappet hydraulic.

I also read the sticky post on BBC cam break-in (thanks to whoever posted that...) and I can do without all that baggage. In a nutshell, I think going solid roller over flat hydraulic will give us at least another 50hp for about $350 extra. We're up against the .660-inch lift max of the as-delivered valve springs, otherwise, the gain could be more. With some of the recent improvements in solid roller lifter technology, I think it's realistic to run a mild solid roller on the street, and get reasonable longevity out of it.

In the meantime, I'm going to spec out a cam and lifters, and get back to you. Does anybody know if anything else is needed to prep a big-block for a solid roller?

Wolfplace
Jan 6th, 07, 7:24 PM
Press-fit pistons: Easy to do at home. Put the pistons in the oven and the pins in the freezer. You've got about 30 seconds to assemble 'em in before they lock up. Having them done professionally isn't that expensive anyway ($50 - $60)
...

-
John,

Not to be picky here,,,, well, maybe a little,, but misinformation is something that gets my attention :D

This in my opinion is Very Bad Advice :noway:
Except for the last sentence,,

First the press is in the rod.
Second you do not want to heat the whole rod.
Third, you are not going to get the rod hot enough sticking it in an oven.

Fourth, putting the pins in the freezer at about 30° will do almost nothing to the size of the pin.

Interesting reading along here even though I am not really into the "budget engine" thing, not my "niche" :)

mr
Jan 6th, 07, 7:49 PM
If it's really a low budget build, forget the aftermarket heads, and just do a valve job and respring on some stock large ovals like 049's or 781's.
As for heads, why not run what most of us budget guys are, 049 or 781 with bigger valves..
..............I agree, big valves on #049 or #781 oval port heads...is all that's really needed...
I was going to say, use real forged pistons regardless....

I agree with pdq on the forged pistons. Either the 2465 or the 2399 Speed Pro forged pistons can be bought for about $400....
.............I also agree, with using forged pistons... It's cheap "detonation" insurance......
__________________________________________________ ________________

It's my opinion, most readers will not use "everything" listed on your parts list, anyway....
Real "budget minded hot rodders", will use some degree of "wallet protection"......

The main parts "bought new", will probably be the pistons, possibly a new variation of the camshaft, maybe a carb, timing set, rings and bearings, ect......

Then possibly, some "used" re-worked big valve heads, if they already have an aluminum intake, it will probably be re-used...along with, maybe the carb, the valve covers, distributor, oil pan, headers, ect.......

I doubt the, ["Build-it-yourself" Total: $5,074.09] will deter anyone from building some, budget minded variation they can afford, anyway.......Some may spend $3,000. while re-using parts they already have,
and others may spend $7,500 buying parts, they don't actually need..............Good Luck,...Don.
http://bestsmileys.com/money/2.gif
__________________________________________________ __________________
This is the "magazine article", I actually used as a template, for building my engine........
http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=-1972547497
1986 Chevrolet 3/4ton, 4door, 4wd - 454cid/240hp engine "core".
I used this "core engines", engine block, cast crank, forged truck rods. and added the parts listed below.
#L2377F+.030 Speed Pro forged pistons.The engines compression is supposedly, less than 9.5:1..
#11-246-3 Comp Cams XE274 camshaft.[230/236 duration]-[.552/.555 lift].
#924-16 Comp Cams valve springs. retainers. locks. lifters. guide plates.
#1411-16 Comp Cams Magnum 1.72 roller rockers. Magnum chromemoly pushrods.
#7110 Comp Cams billet timing set.
#230 Comp Cams valve covers + powder coating.
#7161 Edelbrock RPM Q-Jet intake manifold.
#343772 Large oval port heads, using Ferrea Valves. w/2.19 Intake - 1.88 Exhaust.
[I traded the original 'peanut port' heads/even/ for the larger port #772 truck heads].
+Hastings moly rings. Clevite bearings. Melling oil pump. ARP rod bolts. Tavia timing pointer. balance engine.
+used fluiddamper. used spark plug wires. used GM HEI w/#990 module. used 750 Q-jet. Fel-Pro gaskets.
Total cost was about $3200. including labor/and using some "USED parts" I already owned, in 2003.

Motorhead62
Jan 6th, 07, 11:16 PM
Johnny,

Here are my thoughts:

- Use a differant cam, if you like Comp I would run the XE274 or XE284 or choose a Lunati VooDoo 60204 or the 60205

- Use a a differant carb, I would run an HP Holley instead, a 750 or 850, the 870 Avenger is also a tough street carb

- Definatly use Forged pistons, recon the rods with ARP bolts, and balance the rotating assembly - don't scrimp in this area!

Good Luck on the build. :cool:

2cool
Jan 7th, 07, 3:46 AM
I'm starting to think I would just put this in it:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ESP%2D445445006535&N=700+400075+308652+115&autoview=sku
:D

540Hotrod
Jan 7th, 07, 4:09 AM
If it was me....I'd almost have to go with the stroker crank...cheek up for a good Chinese forged one.

But either way..I'd look at Powerhouse for some good pricing. For sure I'd use forged pistons too. Hyper's are just looking for a chance to break when you start leaning on it.

I'd forget the hyd cams. Go for a solid something. But look at some *real* cams..not the normal run of the mill out of Summit cams. Go to Comp catalog or whoever and pick some lobes. Doesn't really cost anymore and you can gain lots of power. Harold Brookshire (old Ultradyne and most recently the Voodoo's) has a flat tappet that looks to beat the old comp 288 street roller..and that thing actually ran pretty well for a shelf cam. It did better than it looked like it would. I ran 11.20's@123 with it in a pump gas 427 using oval Merlins. Either way..please use something stouter than the normal stuff.

I think going through the joy of breaking in a flat tappet and pulling the inner springs would be a decent thing to show people. It's not that hard...just one of those things you do. Solid roller stuff isn't that reliable yet if you are really going to drive it a lot. Saving money with cheap pistons and putting a roller in it seems strange to me. Build the thing to pull to 7000 rpm.....a 454 will run strong up there and live well even with *medium* parts. Please don't make it a 5500 rpm stone.

You can use stock 3/8" rods with good bolts...they will hold power. But H-beams are barely over $300 these days.

For sure forget the Demon....just a good basic Holley DP will do..don't even need the HP.

I'd use the steel shim gaskets too. I've never blown one even with N20.

Maybe buy the FelPro RACE kit and then get whatever head gaskets you want. Years ago Mr Gasket made a neat gasket kit with steel shims, header and intake gaskets and everything else you needed for cheap. Do they still make them?

I'd save $$ on little bolts too. A trip to a nice little hometown hardware store will find low priced allen bolts for intakes and whatever else you need. No need for ARP there.

Is it getting a new oil pump?

Good job on cheaper timing set..no need for the $100+ bling bling specials!

Make sure they deck the heck out of it. Get quench real tight.


JIM

2cool
Jan 7th, 07, 4:21 AM
I just did a dyno simulation with that combo and the 4.5 crank and came up with a max 562hp @ 5500rpm and 623tq @ 4000rpm.
That was with an off the shelf roller on 108.

Busted Knuckles
Jan 7th, 07, 6:08 AM
Johnny, stay away from the cheap assembled aluminum heads. Why should any magazine promote pirated technology and use thin, cheap castings? And as long as you're considering solid roller setup, the least you can do is make it worth the time and money by stroking this pig!

mr68
Jan 7th, 07, 11:46 AM
the comp 292 h is not as bad as you guys think. we ran one in my 68' 9 yrs ago ,the lil 460 ran 11.60's at 116mph with ,performer rpm 850 and 215 oval ports. car had tons of power for a pump gas 9.8 compr streer engine. car ran as well as ed's famed bse combo used to run(hyd cammed version).also used the 294 s cam in my 70'ss and ran 11.70's at 118 mph in similar combo.
best flat tappet is harolds 288/296 f10 612/630 but that baby is too radical for most cruise nite posers!

73guna
Jan 7th, 07, 6:06 PM
You could save $40 by going with a Eddy rpm instead of an air gap.
I dont believe there is any hp gain by using the air gap.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 11th, 07, 1:17 AM
I ordered the solid roller cam today. I got an Xtreme Energy grind, with the 280 profile on both the intake and exhaust lobe. I'm having it ground on a 108 LSA. The lifters are going to be the Endure-X ones with the oiling fed to the roller bearings. The engine builders I spoke to say these are supposed to be the trick deal for the street. The 280 grind specs out at 242 degrees at .050 and .646-inch lift at zero lash with a 1.7 rocker. Also looks like I'm going with the 1.7s instead of the 1.8s.

71454Chevelle
Jan 11th, 07, 7:45 AM
I ordered the solid roller cam today. I got an Xtreme Energy grind, with the 280 profile on both the intake and exhaust lobe. I'm having it ground on a 108 LSA. The lifters are going to be the Endure-X ones with the oiling fed to the roller bearings. The engine builders I spoke to say these are supposed to be the trick deal for the street. The 280 grind specs out at 242 degrees at .050 and .646-inch lift at zero lash with a 1.7 rocker. Also looks like I'm going with the 1.7s instead of the 1.8s.

DO NOT USE THE ENDURE-X lifters. :noway::noway::noway: They do not have a very good history.

Do your self a favor and look in Isky's Red Zones or Crower Severe Duty lifters.

Also, did you have that cam ground on a billet core? Comp uses some sort of iron cores that are known to have problems.

Do a search on these topics. It's been discussed in the past.

mr 4 speed
Jan 11th, 07, 7:52 AM
if you are using the Endure X lifters and the cam is not ground on an iron core you are building a grenade.
Just what I would want to do with my money :rolleyes:

Tom Mobley
Jan 11th, 07, 11:04 AM
for some reason these magazine types always default to whatever CC is hyping.

Johnny Hunkins: "The engine builders I spoke to say these are supposed to be the trick deal for the street."

what builder(s) did you talk to? I don't believe there could be a builder left who would recommend those lifters. These are well-known to have problems along with CC iron core roller cams. You are not doing your readers any favors by defaulting to CC junk.

MarkM
Jan 11th, 07, 1:16 PM
Are you kidding? There are assembled aluminum BBC heads for $1,200? The pair?

http://shop.enginekits.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=2922

They have an ad in your mag.

Wolfplace
Jan 11th, 07, 2:24 PM
DO NOT USE THE ENDURE-X lifters. :noway::noway::noway: They do not have a very good history.

Do your self a favor and look in Isky's Red Zones or Crower Severe Duty lifters.

Also, did you have that cam ground on a billet core? Comp uses some sort of iron cores that are known to have problems.

Do a search on these topics. It's been discussed in the past.
=
On the cast core roller cams, I do not use them, I do not sell them & I do not recommend them my personal opinion is they were one of the dumbest things to come along in years
Did I mention I am not fond of them? :noway:

Most here know my opinion of the old "Endure-not" lifters, they were in my opinion,, a disaster waiting to happen. :sad:

But, for the record, as I understand it,
Comp kept the name on the new true pressure oiling rollers so there is some confusion here.

The new ones are probably a far cry from the old lifter but are still a bit new for me.
I do know they upgraded the pin to a Tool Steel one to fix one of the "non existent" issues.
And it also causes me wonder how it is that the three top of the line lifters in this class cannot compete in price with the new Comp lifter??
It also tends to make me somewhat nervous when someone comes out with an improvement that up until they came out with it was "unnecessary" :D
So, for the near future I will stick with Isky until I see more of a "track record" with the new Comp lifter.

If all this is correct they should be a decent lifter but my own opinion is of the lifters in this class my list goes like this:
Isky Red Zones
Crower with the HPPO option
Morel
And possibly the new Comp Cams pressure fed lifter which unfortunately kept the name of a well known POS

Not the same lifter though, as I understand it, it is the standard performance lifter that has been upgraded to pressure needle oiling with a Tool Steel axle but it may be a totally new part number, I am not positive here.

From here we are into $2000 lifters,,

Problem is when you are talking about a "budget beater" $800+ for the cam & lifters kind of puts a dent in the bottom line so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

You have to keep track of what is trying to be done by Johnny here ;)

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 11th, 07, 2:41 PM
Don't worry. Everything will be just fine. I think you're mixing up your lifters. The Endure-X ones are the heavy-duty ones. The roller cam will be ground on the same billet core as the catalog solid roller cams.

You guys must be the same crew who come up with all the story lines for "Mythbusters."

mr 4 speed
Jan 11th, 07, 2:55 PM
You guys must be same crew who come up with all the story lines for "Mythbusters."


:rolleyes:

Have fun with your build up.
Hope you at least put it into a car and dragstrip test it besides playing games with dyno corrections

Wolfplace
Jan 11th, 07, 3:04 PM
Don't worry. Everything will be just fine. I think you're mixing up your lifters. The Endure-X ones are the heavy-duty ones. The roller cam will be ground on the same billet core as the catalog solid roller cams.

You guys must be same crew who come up with all the story lines for "Mythbusters."
=
Johnny,
Make that the new Endure-X lifters are the heavy duty ones :D

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 11th, 07, 3:05 PM
We'll be drag testing this engine in our '68 Chevelle project car. We are aiming conservatively for the 11s, but based on some of the comments here, it may run even quicker.

As for using Comp Cams gear, they are one of the most proactive manufacturers in the business. Like all manufacturers, they have their share of problems. What sets them apart from others is that they are quick to fix things. I'm not making an endorsement of CC, just pointing out that they do an exceptional job of incorporating customer feedback and developing fresh product.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 11th, 07, 3:16 PM
Another thing that needs to be said here is that the loads placed on lifters by the Xtreme Energy lobe profiles are extremely high. As someone early in this thread pointed out when I was contemplating a flat hydraulic Magnum profile, the Xtreme Energy lobe is a lot more vigorous.

When there is a failure in any part of the valvetrain, it is the lifter that most often pays the price and gets the blame. I would be careful in laying all the blame of lifter failure with the lifter itself, no matter what the manufacturer.

We already know factually that recent developments in cam profiles have left many spring designs out-dated and left in the dust. For example, one of the reasons beehive-style springs are proving so worthwhile is for this very reason.

BillsCamino
Jan 11th, 07, 6:14 PM
Why even go with a generic "off the shelf" cam? :confused:
Talk to one of the guys at Comp that actually design the things.
And NOT one of their "Tech" phone advisors. Cost and turn time on a custom ordered grind is minimal.
Better suited to YOUR specific application. Build the cam to work with the engine and application, not build the engine around a pre-chosen cam. :(
Chris Padgett recommended mine...the exhaust profile is not even in Comp's catalog.

pdq67
Jan 11th, 07, 8:40 PM
Mark,

"Originally Posted by Johnny Hunkins
Are you kidding? There are assembled aluminum BBC heads for $1,200? The pair?

http://shop.enginekits.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=2922

They have an ad in your mag."


Thanks.................

I was going to say that again! B/c that's why I mentioned them at $1200 complete in the first place!!

SOMEBODY is gonna test these cheap SOB's onna these days and I bet that some big dollar heads are going to look silly...............

Buck for buck!!

JUST don't go plain stupid with excessive valve spring pressures, I figure!!!!

pdq67

PS., and here's Harold's flat tappet cam that he say's will beat a CC 288AR that 540 Hotrod mentioned earlier....

"pdq67,

I've finally designed something, now I just have to make it......
A solid flat tappet replacement for the Comp Cams CB-288a-R10 their 11-692-8------
CB-288A-R10 288@.015 246@.050 158@.200 .622" valve lift 38-70-78-30
UDHarold's 285@.015 249@.050 161@.200 .618" valve lift 35-70-74-31

Their cam sells on their web site for $363.67, and the -8 in the part number means it IS NOT a steel billet. Lifters cost a good amount, too.
My cam will be a standard high-quality proferal cam--what solids have been made of for 30 years--and will cost around $168.75. Good Americian-made mechanical lifters are available at less than 25% the cost of solid roller lifters.
My cam stays .0176" away from the edge of the lifter, and I have had other cams that get closer to the edge go 100,000 miles on the street. The seating velocity is the same I have used on those 100,000 mile cams. Valve lash on mine is .018", on the Comp .020".
Because of changes in oil quality over the past 10 years, I would recommend using a lot of caution in breaking in ANY flat tappet solid or hydraulic cam.
The Comp Cams is symmetrical, mine, as always, is unsymmetrical. Look at the timing differences at .015"---My cam has a 4* longer power stroke, meaning more torque into your crank at ALL rpms, and a 3* later intake opening point, for less reversion and higher port velocities, again at ALL rpms.
At .050" and at .200", my cam is 3* fatter---Not only is it filling the cylinder faster, it has MORE time to do it.
The result---MORE POWER everywhere.
Now to get you guys some made......"

Harold said it use’s Chevy solid lifters too!

von
Jan 11th, 07, 10:09 PM
This engine blew past "budget" status a while ago. I'd like to see a $3500 cap. 11's should be attainable with that.

pdq67
Jan 11th, 07, 11:29 PM
No!!

I can see $5,000 in it as a decent budget motor nowadays, imho..........

pdq67

Motorhead62
Jan 12th, 07, 12:05 AM
This thread has gone crazy!

Sorry, but, it smells of magazine hype that revolves around advertising.

I can't believe I am reading that the initiator is attempting to school the ones he is seeking advice and help from.

On the other hand, this might be entertaining.

The story continues...:cool:

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 12th, 07, 12:42 PM
I'm schooling no one. In fact, suggestions on this thread made me change my mind regarding use of a hydraulic flat-tappet cam. I've also made changes to the main and rod bearings based on suggestions here.

As for the cam being a catalog grind--it is not. I'm using the Xtreme 280 lobe profile--not the shelf cam. If it matters, David Vizard helped me spec the cam. I only know enough about cams to get me into trouble. Ours will have the 280 lobe on both intake and exhaust, and have a 108 LSA (versus the XSR280 shelf grind with a 280 intake lobe, a 286 exhaust lobe, and a 110 LSA).

What is a "proferal" (pro-feral?) cam? One in favor of being wild, undomesticated, or ferocious? Trying to figure it out from the latin root...

If I can't get the Summit/Dart heads, I'll look into the other aluminum heads.

MarkM
Jan 12th, 07, 12:50 PM
For the guys saying the $5-6k budget is to high. Have you built a BBC lately? With the exeption of aquiring used parts, stealing, getting donations, using parts you already have etc. this is about as cheap as it's going to get.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 12th, 07, 12:57 PM
Man, you've got that right. This is my first BBC build-up. I've done a ton of small-blocks, but the cost is growing faster than the national deficit. If I can keep it under $6,000 at this point, I'll consider it successful.

Remember when Vizard built his "Street Beast" big-block back in the August and September issue? It was over $7,100, and had swap-meet parts and DIY assembly labor. It did make 675 hp, but God, did people complain. Half thought it was too over-the-top expensive, and the rest (who had actually built BBCs) thought we were pulling a fast one because it was done too cheaply.

If we make 600 - 620 hp for $6,000--where does that put us in the cost/value continuum for BBCs? That's the real question.

sleeper
Jan 12th, 07, 12:59 PM
I think the camshaft is a good choice. The 108 ls will add some torque and hp where a 112 would have helped fuel mileage and engine vacuum. Overall it is a good compromise. This is why Comp puts the ls on 110.The duration of 240@.050 is about the limit of "driver" if we are talking a few thousand miles a year. I know, a lot of people are driving with more lift and duration but chosen cam should be very streetable and well mannered. I have ran several sets of Comp roller lifters over the past 20 years in drag engines. I have never had one problem. We usually change them out at 300 runs. I don't have a clue to how much street driving this would equal.

I would still like to see some forged pistons, Speed Pro would be fine. For the street the 5/64 -5/64-3/16 ring package is more durable and really doesn't give away much horsepower at the RPM the engine will see.

Overall it is shaping up to be a very similar build to a lot of 454's roaming the streets. It should be interesting to see how the dragstrip testing goes, especially compared to a lot of members cars posted here.

Another future magazine article could be drag and street testing a few different roller profiles, that should keep us tuning in next month.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 12th, 07, 7:23 PM
By the way, the COMP custom camshaft grind is as follows, and uses the 4874 Xtreme Energy lobe profile (solid street roller, big-block journal):

4874B/4874B SR108+4

Tom Mobley
Jan 12th, 07, 7:30 PM
say, Johnny, you weren't wanting any feedback or anything, were you? :)

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 12th, 07, 7:30 PM
Okay, here is the revised parts list. You'll want to note the changes to bearings, camshaft, lifters and carburetor. What do you guys think about this now that I've made some of the recommended changes?

The Howitzer—Revised Parts List

Part: Source: Part No. Price:
454 Mark IV core AAMidwest block, rods, crank $600
Hypereutectic pistons, .060-over: Summit/KB UEM-KB207060-8 $292.69
Rings: Summit/Total Seal-gapless TSR-T9190-60 $207.95
Main Bearings: Clevite 77 H-series CLE-MS829H 71.95 set
Rod bearings: Clevite 77 H-series CLE-CB743HX $139.12 set
Cam bearings: Summit/Clevite CLE-SH616S $19.95
Cast iron heads, complete: Summit/Dart SUM-152125 $1,291.90/pair
Head bolts: Summit/ARP ARP-135-3601 $55.95
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM Airgap EDL-7562 $235.88
Intake bolt kit: Summit/ARP ARP-135-2001 $24.95
Carb: 850-cfm Mighty Demon (Jegs) 5563020GC $549.99
Carburetor stud kit: Summit SUM-G1421 $3.69
Cam: Summit/COMP CCA-11-000-8 $275.34
Grind No: 4874B/4874B SR108+4
Balancer bolt kit: Summit/COMP SUM-G1678 $7.95
Lifters: Summit/COMP Endure-X CCA-866-16 $469.88
Timing set: Summit SUM-G6610 $37.95
Rocker arms: PRW 1.73:1 $234.50
Pushrods (intake): Summit/Trick Flow, 3/8 inch TFS-21408500-8 $56.95
Pushrods (exhaust): Summit/Trick Flow, 3/8 inch TFS-21419500-8 $56.95
Distributor: Summit/MSD Street Fire HEI MSD-8362 $159.99
Distributor gear: Summit/COMP CCA-12200 (.491-inch dia) $105.95
Wires: Summit/MSD 8.5 Super Conductor MSD-31299 $75.95
Flexplate: PRW for early only $59.50
Water pump: PRW early Mark IV $94.50
Plugs: Autolite AR3924 ($3.47 ea) $27.76
Intake gaskets: Summit/Mr. Gasket MRG-121 $10.95
Head gaskets: Summit/FelPro FPP-1037 (2) $79.90
Exhaust gasket: Summit/FelPro FPP-1412 $16.95
Gasket set: Summit/FelPro FEL-KS2618 $58.95
Water neck: Summit SUM-G3801 $7.95
Expansion plug kit: Summit/Sealed Power SLP-381-8009 $14.99
Valve cover breathers (incl. grommet) Summit/Edelbrock EDL-4405 (2) $13.76
Timing cover: AAMidwest TC454C $14.02
Oil pan: AAMidwest OP454 $60.44
Valve covers: AAMidwest VC454 $35.52
Engine paint: Dupli-Color DE 1607 $5.99

Machine Work
Jet wash block: $95
Block bore & hone: $250
Cam bearings: $40
Deck resurface: $80

DIY assembly
Total: $5,941.61

GRN69CHV
Jan 12th, 07, 7:51 PM
I've read some of the prior "5" pages. Seeing as how I am a bit lethargic tonight I will just ask (if this was already covered - sorry).

So you are going to use stock used rods without reconditioning or a bolt upgrade, with a solid roller than will spin to 6500+ (incidentally being driven by a cheap timing set ), while spining a cast crank with KB hypereutectic pistons (known for top land destructive problems when manufacturerer specified oversize ring gaps are not employed) with gapless rings installed.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 12th, 07, 8:16 PM
Stock rods: yes.
Stock rod bolts: yes.
Hypereutectic pistons: yes.
6,500 rpm: no.
Destroying the top ring land: no.
Gapless rings: yes.
True roller timing chain with solid bushing & three keyways (sourced from Cloyes): yes.

Did I answer everything?

Tom Mobley
Jan 12th, 07, 8:36 PM
whuffo those expensive rings? You don't get anything out of that in a street car. maybe not in a race car either?

H Clevites on a used crank? What would be your point here?

You could have real Isky or similar quality lifters for that $470

$105 distributor gear? yer kiddin', right? that CC cam not have an iron gear on it? This 2007, those guys haven't heard about iron gears on a billet roller?

somewhere along the line you'll need an oil pump, pickup and driveshaft.

but other than those inexplicable choices soaking up money that could have gone to resize the rods and install good bolts you're fine.

Say, CC wouldn't be a big advertiser in your mag, would they?

Tom Mobley
Jan 12th, 07, 8:39 PM
can't you just feel the love? Aren't you glad you came here to be treated with the respect and dignity befitting your lofty position? :yes:

GRN69CHV
Jan 12th, 07, 8:39 PM
Yes you did. I wasn't aware the KB's worked with Gapless ring sets - seeing as how there's no way to effectively widen the gaps. Or do the Gapless rings sets already have the ring expansion provision built in? Just find this intersting. KB markets #361 to put a 4" crank in a 402 block for a 434CI motor. I had been interested in it, but had first hand experience with a Pontiac 455 motor that had minor detonation problems and broke the lands off two KB pistons. Guys use them all the time with good success, but typically with std rings gapped per KB specs.

Tom Mobley
Jan 12th, 07, 8:43 PM
oh yeah, I forgot: you'd spend your money better on a set of Sealed Power/Speed Pro HT pistons. much cheaper and the KBs get you nothing of value for the extra money.

Tom Mobley
Jan 12th, 07, 8:48 PM
Grn69chv,

The Total Seal gapless rings go in the second groove, which runs a normal gap. Never mind that many up-to-date builders are moving away from tight second rings to avoid the a pressure build-up between the rings. Never mind either all those anecdotal reports of high oil consumption issues with those rings on the street.

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 12th, 07, 8:52 PM
If I have a valvetrain failure, and I'm using a different cam and lifter manufacturer, can you imagine the problems I'd have? Can you imagine the problems you'd have trying to get anybody to pay for anything?

When done right, gapless rings are worth an easy 15 - 20 hp over standard rings. Don't you read (or believe) the magazine articles?

The upgraded bearings were initially suggested to me by BillsCamino on the first page of the thread. I heeded of his advice. You think it's a bad idea, huh?

A bronze distributor gear would work on the street--for a while, until the gear wear and timing spark scatter gets so bad, it jumps a tooth. In this one area, my prior personal experience trumps any anectdotal advice you could possibly give.

Stock BBC oil pumps are known have very good durability, volume and pressure, even for performance applications. Vizard's built dozens of BBCs using the stock pump, so I have no problem passing that recommendation to readers. We will probably buy a new stock replacement though. Any recommendations?

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 12th, 07, 9:03 PM
I spoke with Vizard yesterday about the KB pistons. He said their high-silicon alloy will give me better dimensional stability from expansion. Of all the hypereutectics he's tried, he likes the KBs the best. A forging would give us more protection against a really lean mixture, but provided we don't go lean, they will work better in a street car than a forging.

A forged piston is overkill on a naturally-aspirated pump gas motor, especially a street-driven one. I'll never put nitrous or boost to it, and we'll be tuning it on the dyno. I'd probably just say in the story, "If you want a forged piston for whatever reason, buy 'em for a couple hundred bucks more."

Tom Mobley
Jan 12th, 07, 9:14 PM
I can imagine the trouble a normal guy not working at a magazine would have trying to get anybody to pay for anything either way.

>>worth an easy 15 - 20 hp over standard rings. where? on the magic magazine dyno at Westec?

I certainly don't see any point in putting expensive special bearings on a used crank. You're not even speccing a polish on the crank. For this type of application what is needed is a bearing with a soft top layer with high embeddebility to conform with the used journal.

I didn't suggest a bronze gear, nor would I. You good at setting up and knocking down straw men? University Journalisn 204? I would get a billet cam with a iron gear, like the Crane in my 6 year old 406. These are easily available from most all the major vendors and completely eliminate the whole gear issue (and $105 dist gears.)

I totally agree on the stock pump, but I didn't see it mentioned in the group of stuff with the block and crank. I'd recommend using the stiffer pressure relief spring with it though. Also, the used pick-ups can be difficult to clean and any junk in ithem goes straight to the pump.

Tom Mobley
Jan 12th, 07, 9:15 PM
are we having fun yet?

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 12th, 07, 9:23 PM
I'll have you know I'm very good a setting up and knocking down straw men--especially the ones operating lame magazine dynos. We'll be using a DTS dyno, not the Superflow at Westech. The main reason is that the DTS will pull down to 2,500 rpm while the Superflow can't. Anyway, gapless rings are a proven advantage. (And men really did land on the moon too.)

After seeing our core crank, I think we'll be sending the crank out to be polished. At least polished.

BillsCamino
Jan 12th, 07, 9:35 PM
The upgraded bearings were initially suggested to me by BillsCamino on the first page of the thread. I heeded of his advice.

What I wrote was...
Rings- $207
but Main bearings are only listed at $17 and Rod bearings for $13

I was expressing my issues with the obvious quality of the bearings (based on pricing) in comparison to the high dollar ring package.

My suggestions:
How about a happy medium? Try the Clevite P series...rods AND mains will run around $75 total. Cast crank and stock rods...that's all the bearing you'll need.
I also agree with the concerns with using the gapless rings with the KB pistons.
Heck, for that matter, I'm concerned about running a KB hyper PERIOD.
If it must be a hyper, Speed Pro is a better product, IMO.
And everyone knows that Durabond makes the best cam bearings...

grovey
Jan 12th, 07, 10:25 PM
how much compression are you running in this budget, non balanced , stock rod,stock crank, race bearinged, hyp pistoned, top dollar ringed, vaccum suckendary, PUMP GAS, solid roller, weak liftered time bomb ?

Tom Mobley
Jan 12th, 07, 11:06 PM
uh-oh.

MarkM
Jan 12th, 07, 11:11 PM
I wonder what would make more power, a 468 with a solid roller, or a 496 with a hyd. flat tappet.... hmmmm...

Cost would be similar.

540Hotrod
Jan 13th, 07, 1:36 AM
Wow..doesn't this get emotional?

Johnny...I appreciate you listening to everyone here. This is good stuff.

I'm still for a forged anything piston. NO WAY would I or most folks I know out here consider a hyper for anything I was going to lean on. People want these things to last a long time and not worry about them.

If you want the gapless..go for it. I've got a friend who has used them in his 540 a few times...I can tell you that the first two were terrible oil suckers. This last time with some higher dollar ones seem to be working OK. I'm still using basic Speed Pro's and most recently a very good priced set of Mahle's ($89) in my 540 with no issues at all. Still makes you wonder why no OEM's use gapless or why very very few racers overall use them. Not even NASCAR folks.

The best way to do cam is with the $50 pressed on iron cam gear. No need for funky dist gears, you just use the stock ones. Mine has been working fine for years on my Engle cam.

Not sure you need the harder H series bearings on a stock cast crank. I'd just use basic P series rebuilder types for a stock crank. Read the Clevite website. No need for the big radius on your crank or the expense.

I'd use at least some cheap new rod bolts and re-size rods..but I'll admit changing them many times over the years without resizing rods and never had an issue.

I've been using the Comp lifters for quite awhile now. The set in my motor now I got from them when they were testing the new pressurized ones a few years ago. Mine are still doing well despite not having the newest upgraded axle in them. But I keep an eye on them pretty close.

Still think you can save $$ on gaskets.

I'm still with you on timing chain.

If clearances are decent in it, a stock pump with HP spring will be fine. If it ends up a little loose after polishing stuff, go for HV to keep low speed oil pressure up.

If you're interested a few of us have been working on some mods for improved lifter life. There are a couple of basic flaws in the GM oil setup that can be addressed pretty easily to help out. Should help street life on these things alot. Shoot me a note.....



JIM

540Hotrod
Jan 13th, 07, 1:38 AM
A pump gas 496 with a solid flat tappet will make 650 with iron oval ports...been there done that.

JIM

Wolfplace
Jan 13th, 07, 2:18 AM
Okay, here is the revised parts list. You'll want to note the changes to bearings, camshaft, lifters and carburetor. What do you guys think about this now that I've made some of the recommended changes?

The Howitzer—Revised Parts List

Part: Source: Part No. Price:
454 Mark IV core AAMidwest block, rods, crank $600
Hypereutectic pistons, .060-over: Summit/KB UEM-KB207060-8 $292.69
Rings: Summit/Total Seal-gapless TSR-T9190-60 $207.95
Main Bearings: Clevite 77 H-series CLE-MS829H 71.95 set
Rod bearings: Clevite 77 H-series CLE-CB743HX $139.12 set
Cam bearings: Summit/Clevite CLE-SH616S $19.95
Cast iron heads, complete: Summit/Dart SUM-152125 $1,291.90/pair
Head bolts: Summit/ARP ARP-135-3601 $55.95
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM Airgap EDL-7562 $235.88
Intake bolt kit: Summit/ARP ARP-135-2001 $24.95
Carb: 850-cfm Mighty Demon (Jegs) 5563020GC $549.99
Carburetor stud kit: Summit SUM-G1421 $3.69
Cam: Summit/COMP CCA-11-000-8 $275.34
Grind No: 4874B/4874B SR108+4
Balancer bolt kit: Summit/COMP SUM-G1678 $7.95
Lifters: Summit/COMP Endure-X CCA-866-16 $469.88
Timing set: Summit SUM-G6610 $37.95
Rocker arms: PRW 1.73:1 $234.50
Pushrods (intake): Summit/Trick Flow, 3/8 inch TFS-21408500-8 $56.95
Pushrods (exhaust): Summit/Trick Flow, 3/8 inch TFS-21419500-8 $56.95
Distributor: Summit/MSD Street Fire HEI MSD-8362 $159.99
Distributor gear: Summit/COMP CCA-12200 (.491-inch dia) $105.95
Wires: Summit/MSD 8.5 Super Conductor MSD-31299 $75.95
Flexplate: PRW for early only $59.50
Water pump: PRW early Mark IV $94.50
Plugs: Autolite AR3924 ($3.47 ea) $27.76
Intake gaskets: Summit/Mr. Gasket MRG-121 $10.95
Head gaskets: Summit/FelPro FPP-1037 (2) $79.90
Exhaust gasket: Summit/FelPro FPP-1412 $16.95
Gasket set: Summit/FelPro FEL-KS2618 $58.95
Water neck: Summit SUM-G3801 $7.95
Expansion plug kit: Summit/Sealed Power SLP-381-8009 $14.99
Valve cover breathers (incl. grommet) Summit/Edelbrock EDL-4405 (2) $13.76
Timing cover: AAMidwest TC454C $14.02
Oil pan: AAMidwest OP454 $60.44
Valve covers: AAMidwest VC454 $35.52
Engine paint: Dupli-Color DE 1607 $5.99

Machine Work
Jet wash block: $95
Block bore & hone: $250
Cam bearings: $40
Deck resurface: $80

DIY assembly
Total: $5,941.61


If I have a valvetrain failure, and I'm using a different cam and lifter manufacturer, can you imagine the problems I'd have? Can you imagine the problems you'd have trying to get anybody to pay for anything?

When done right, gapless rings are worth an easy 15 - 20 hp over standard rings. Don't you read (or believe) the magazine articles?

The upgraded bearings were initially suggested to me by BillsCamino on the first page of the thread. I heeded of his advice. You think it's a bad idea, huh?

A bronze distributor gear would work on the street--for a while, until the gear wear and timing spark scatter gets so bad, it jumps a tooth. In this one area, my prior personal experience trumps any anectdotal advice you could possibly give.

Stock BBC oil pumps are known have very good durability, volume and pressure, even for performance applications. Vizard's built dozens of BBCs using the stock pump, so I have no problem passing that recommendation to readers. We will probably buy a new stock replacement though. Any recommendations?
=
Johnny,
I seriously doubt you will find many,, if any performance engine builders who will claim 15-20HP in Gapless rings,, unless of course they are selling them to you :D
It just makes no sense no matter how you cut it.
Exactly where is this 20HP coming from? End gap losses??
How much end gap do you have in an engine at temperature?
The answer is almost zero.
Even if you considered .018 as the gap running which obviously it is not what percentage of the total surface you are sealing is this?

Fact is I have seen nothing in terms of gain & I have seen losses with the second gapless rings
And, every piston manufacturer, every ring manufacturer with a couple of noted exceptions, almost every performance engine builder & the OEM's have been using a wider second gap since at least the 80's
It is shown to both increase HP & lead to better emission control which is why the OEM's went after it in the first place.

And, yes I read and no I do not believe a lot of what I read in magazines, especially when it is trying to sell me something. :sad:

You stated you were using a billet core cam with the cast gear option
This is a -9 core not a -8 which is a cast core cam.
Part number is 11-000-9 for a billet cam
The special instructions may list what is added like the gear option.

If you use the billet core with the cast gear you do not need anything but the factory GM Melonized distributor gear
If you stay with the -8 core you still do not need a special gear.

You do not want to use H series bearings on a cast crank.
The standard Clevite P series bearings are just fine.

Oil pump:
The Melling M77 oil pump comes with the HP (Corvette) spring in the box.
Buy a new pickup as was mentioned above

Machine work:
Again, in case you missed my previous post, you cannot hang your own pistons by using an oven, it needs to be done by your machinist.

pdq67
Jan 13th, 07, 2:25 AM
Johnny,

Like said earlier, per D2k, my 496 should put out 550hp at 5500 rpm!!

That said, you do whatever you want, but me, I'm "old-school" so I use forged pistons except in my next CHEAP junk301!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hell, 1/8th inch over 283 blocks are CHEAP!!

What I am trying to say is screw the rings and pistons and do your motor old school that us old farts can afford and I bet you will make all the power you arte looking for.

pdq67

Ps., like a 270 cam at 10 to 1:

A 280 cam at 10.5 to 1 and a

290 cam at 11 TO 1 CR......

GRN69CHV
Jan 13th, 07, 6:53 AM
Tom Mobley, thanks for the clarification on the GapLess rings. I've never used them or even considered them or for that matter even read the literature & advertisements. Guess I'm still stuck on the SpeedPro R-series plasma moly barrel shaped $100.00/set ring sets that seem to end up in all my motors - that incidentally never smoke and show no real indication of poor ring seal, especially in loose fit piston/cylinder applications.

Johnny, got you a new nickname. We gonna call you "Johnny Magazine" from now on. Just kidding. But seriously, I read your initial comments that this was your first big block and fully understand where you are coming from. I had nothing but small blocks when I was very young. The switch to building big blocks can be trying. The parts you would upgrade in a small block are often not worth even changing in a big block.

mr
Jan 13th, 07, 12:09 PM
Johnny,
The first 2 items, that should be on your parts list, is 'ARP rod bolts' and 'forged pistons'...

After checking the latest "SUMMIT RACING" parts catalog, the highest priced "Speed Pro forged pistons"
to fit a 454 engine, are [$407.60]/ cheapest "Speed Pro forged pistons" are [$383.60]..........

The highest priced big-block chevy "ARP rod bolts" are [$91.69]/ cheapest "ARP's" are [$51.95].....

If I were "filthy rich" it might not matter, but when I do anything, I always try my hardest to,
...... :thumbsup: "DO IT RIGHT, THE FIRST TIME" :thumbsup:...... this seems to be, the fastest and cheapest way....

Stock rod bolts: yes.http://bestsmileys.com/crying/15.gif
Hypereutectic pistons: yes.
Gapless rings: yes.
The only problems, I see with your engine is, the use of KB "Hypereutectic pistons and Stock rod bolts".........
I have no expierence with gap-less rings, so, I'll let other members give their advice, on those.....

In my opinion, "Forged pistons and ARP rod bolts", should be a must, any time.....
...."Popular Hot Rodding Magazine's", name is associated with building hi-performance big-block engines.....

If it were me, I would squeeze $500.00, out of the parts 'you' listed, below, to upgrade your choices of, "Hypereutectic pistons" and "Stock rod bolts".........to any major brand, "Forged pistons" and "ARP rod bolts"

The Howitzer—Revised Parts List
Part: Source: Part No. Price:
Hypereutectic pistons, .060-over: Summit/KB UEM-KB207060-8 $292.69

Rings: Summit/Total Seal-gapless TSR-T9190-60 $207.95

Cast iron heads, complete: Summit/Dart SUM-152125 $1,291.90/pair

Head bolts: Summit/ARP ARP-135-3601 $55.95

Intake bolt kit: Summit/ARP ARP-135-2001 $24.95

Carb: 850-cfm Mighty Demon (Jegs) 5563020GC $549.99

Distributor: Summit/MSD Street Fire HEI MSD-8362 $159.99

Distributor gear: Summit/COMP CCA-12200 (.491-inch dia) $105.95
Total: $5,941.61...http://bestsmileys.com/money/2.gif
http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gif
Otherwise, this may be how, "former PHR" editor "Johnny Hunkins" is fondly remembered, at TEAM CHEVELLE..
when your boss ask's.. "Johnny"...... How much money are you blowing, on this iron headed,
non balanced , stock rod bolted, cast cranked, race bearinged, hyper pistoned, top dollar ringed, vaccum suckendary, pump gassed, roller cammed, weak liftered, time bomb ?.and says..your "FIRED".

Just pick up the phone, and call the pro's, Dean Skuza, Warren Johnson, Don Prudhomme, Austin Coil
or any hi-performance engine builders, you know and trust, who use several pistons,
to build their street/race engines, for their expert advice,
about the forged pistons and ARP rod bolts, we speak of.........................Don.http://bestsmileys.com/silly/1.gif.

Motorhead62
Jan 13th, 07, 1:06 PM
how much compression are you running in this budget, non balanced , stock rod,stock crank, race bearinged, hyp pistoned, top dollar ringed, vaccum suckendary, PUMP GAS, solid roller, weak liftered time bomb ?

WOW! :clonk:

Johnny Hunkins
Jan 13th, 07, 5:30 PM
Whatever the compression is, I'm sure it's the wrong one! Seriously, we're shooting for something just a tad over 10:1, but less than 10.5:1. That will let me run the crappy 91 pump gas we have in California. And to clarify, it looks like we're going with a mechanical secondary carb (Mighty Demon 850).

In most of the engines I've built, I used forged pistons. But I am curious how the hypereutectic ones will work. The last 350 we did had the stock non-hypereutectic cast pistons, and that motor made 447 peak hp with no problems. One thing is for sure, whether they work or not, we'll all be the wiser.

In the meantime, I will consider changing the rings and bearings by asking engine builders who build serious and durable street BBCs. Not Top Fuel engine builders.

GRN69CHV
Jan 13th, 07, 7:57 PM
Johnny, I run the SpeedPro H693CP hypers in my 454 .030 motor with a set of heads swapped from a ZZ502 . With a fresh .030 bore I have .0015 piston/wall (pistons are a real tight fit, that's the benefit). I run std ring gaps and have a very tight motor with no visible signs of ring blowby. Have had several motors with SpeedPro hypers and found them to be a good reliable piston. By comparison, my 402 motor has been apart several times but I kept the bore at .030 and kept the same pistons. The TRW's in that motor are L2354's from the 70's. Piston clearance is well over .0045 now. I just run the R=series SpeedPro barrel shaped rings to get a good seal.

mr
Jan 13th, 07, 11:07 PM
I am curious how the hypereutectic ones will work. The last 350 we did had the stock non-hypereutectic cast pistons, and that motor made 447 peak hp with no problems.
One thing is for sure, whether they work or not, we'll all be the wiser.

In the meantime, I will consider asking engine builders who build serious and durable street BBCs.
Not Top Fuel engine builders.
I could'nt agree with you more, Dean Skuza, Warren Johnson, Don Prudhomme and Austin Coil,
probably would'nt know their a$$es, from a hole in the ground..about, building hi-performance street engines..

May I suggest, getting a .030 block, in case a piston does explode, you'll have another .030 to work with...

Then if your piston choice does'nt work out, you will know what raw "iron ore" is suppose to look like...
I doubt you'll have a piece, bigger than a quarter, but at least you'll have two handfulls of it........
[ I have 3 friends, that while saving money, they ended up getting the quarter/two handfulls expierence ]

I'll admit, I always enjoyed watching, "popular hot rodding tv", with Dean Skuza and that other crazy guy.....
...they acted like they knew everything, from A-Z, about automotive hot rodding, and drag racing......

The main reason I read Car Craft Magazine, is I have noticed, over the years they're more street car oriented, and they normally use the best parts "Forged pistons/ARP rod bolts", on most performance engine build-ups...
...."the way I look at it"....if you do it right the first time, you'll be saving money...
http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=-1972547497

Keep us posted, on this website, and good luck with your, hi-dollar performance engine...................Don.

2cool
Jan 14th, 07, 3:42 AM
In most of the engines I've built, I used forged pistons. But I am curious how the hypereutectic ones will work. The last 350 we did had the stock non-hypereutectic cast pistons, and that motor made 447 peak hp with no problems. One thing is for sure, whether they work or not, we'll all be the wiser

I was going to say that yesterday but kept it to myself, a budget build would be one were the pistons got re-used BUT 1.2 hp per cube is putting a heavy load on cast pistons.

Johnny Hunkins
Feb 1st, 07, 3:58 PM
What happened? Did you guys run out of steam? Update: Most of the parts have arrived from Summit, except the pistons. I may still change my choice on the rings and bearings. It looks like we'll be starting in earnest in a week or two.

Weigh in now if you've got something important--or something really funny and insulting that I can print.

73guna
Feb 1st, 07, 4:13 PM
Johnny,

I sure would have liked to seen that rat in the Laguna project your always talking about :D .

Bowtie-72
Feb 1st, 07, 4:48 PM
The machine work listed has to be farmed out, but there's no reason why you couldn't assemble this in your garage. That's basically what we're doing.

As for the dyno, would you read our story about an engine build-up if we didn't dyno it?

Part of the budget idea is this: We give you the recipe, you build it identically to ours, and you don't have to dyno it. You save the money.

If I build a pile of junk for $2K, use a bunch of swap meet parts you can't find, then I don't dyno test it, you're telling me you'll be happier?

I like the direction this is going. I think a great addition to this story would be what parts you decided against and why. Let's let the readers know WHY you decided on some of the major parts. I also think part of the interest in reading a buildup like this is the additional education gleaned from polling many different sources, and thier experience in getting the most from the least.

I also would love to read all the letters you get from people who initially started to build one exactly the same, but got sidetracked with a cam choice, compression change, etc, and complain about not getting the same results. I can hear it now... "I built the exact same engine, but I used XXX pistons, I ran XXX cam and intake, and now it doesn't run nearly as hard as yours. I think your Dyno is screwed or you're putting us on...FOUL!" Whatever.

Bowtie-72
Feb 1st, 07, 5:24 PM
You guys must be the same crew who come up with all the story lines for "Mythbusters."

You should look into a engine building mythbusters article. I know there's usually a comparison article every other month or so, but even just compiling those articles into one special section or insert might be cool. It might not even be so much a mythbusting section, but more like a "What's it worth" in horsepower terms. Things like Glyptal paint, how much an MSD really adds to a otherwise well-tuned engine, filed ring gaps, header wrap, cut down plenum dividers in intakes, and some of the more crazy things people come up with too.

2cool
Feb 2nd, 07, 2:49 AM
You should look into a engine building mythbusters article. I know there's usually a comparison article every other month or so, but even just compiling those articles into one special section or insert might be cool. It might not even be so much a mythbusting section, but more like a "What's it worth" in horsepower terms. Things like Glyptal paint, how much an MSD really adds to a otherwise well-tuned engine, filed ring gaps, header wrap, cut down plenum dividers in intakes, and some of the more crazy things people come up with too.

This would be expensive and hard to test each thing but I like The idea.

Trank
Feb 3rd, 07, 2:43 AM
I've been following along with interest on this build, since I'm in the mkt for my 1st bb for my, now motorless, 69.

I found a Wheeler shrt blk.......all 4340 internals, SRP, 4bolt(billetcap) 468 for $2350. How would this be for the beginnings of a budget street bb? Is this Chinese junk?

justkyle
Feb 3rd, 07, 4:36 AM
I am still trying to figure out how the magazines and such can build a low budget engine they trust. I feel like I am building as low budget as I can while still staying with quality parts.

As of now on my 496 project I am sitting at somewhere around $4500 in just a basic shortblock with heads.

'76 2 bolt block : Decked, bored, align bored, honed with torque plates, etc.
Rotating assembly: Scat forged 4.25 crank, Scat H-beam 6.385 rods
SRP 212157 forged 18 cc domed pistons
rings, bearings etc.

Heads are 781's cut for 2.19/1.88, stainless valves. Lunati springs, retainers and clips. Gasked matched with a bowl blend.

Voodoo 60205. 241/249 @.050 Hydraulic Flat tappet cam.

I'm sitting at $4,200 - $4,500 as of now.

I consider this a budget build. I still have 3k to go if I figure in the rest: Oil pump & pan combo, Intake, Carb, Distributor, Headers, Water pump, Wires, plugs, gaskets, Motor mounts, Brackets... and on and on.

Even if I decided to go with a 454 rebuild with quality parts, I would still be in the 3,500- 4,000 range at this point.

Trank
Feb 3rd, 07, 11:36 AM
Thanks for the heads up, Jeff. I don't even know where Wheeler is located. How do u even contact them? I was just gonna buy this from a wholesaler, but I'd like to know where the mfr. is, ya know.

Good luck w/your buildup
and thanks again,

Tim

chevguy65
Feb 10th, 07, 11:33 PM
How about an update Johnny?

79VetteMike
Feb 17th, 07, 3:36 PM
Wow!! I'm worn out now. Congrats on having such thick skin Johnny. My money is on the theory that some of these guys have never built an engine OR don't work for a living or like to insult anyone that doesn't agree with them OR goes with the popular opinion. "Budget" is relative and I have to say, that I am but a poor man, however; I think $5500 is a fair price to build your own nasty big block. One of the things that really gets me is that you rarely see any of these "daily driven" street brawlers on any street and feel pretty confident that my little stroker small block will put ALMOST any car I meet on the street back in it's place. I don't claim to have all of the answers on cam choices, but I'm not going to beat you up about it either. If and when I ever destroy one of these KB hyper pistons, I'll come whine to you guys. As it stands right now, I read the instructions, gap the rings and drive it like I stole it. Finally, you can't totally get off without the obligatory insult from me-you forgot to include the balancer, you @$#%!!
Some people rather be combative than constructive. I might be convinced to go big block on my daily driver if I can build it for decent money and actually afford to drive it everyday.
Any chance you guys might consider a 396 small block? I have all of the parts for one, but haven't put it together yet.

Johnny Hunkins
Feb 17th, 07, 7:29 PM
We're coming in the home stretch now. The machine work is being done next week. It looks like we will be resizing the rods and using new rod bolts. We'll be using a more reasonably priced set of rings (plasma moly, not the gapless), and good bearings.

It looks like the total build-out is going to top $6K, but I don't see any way around it. Still, if we can hit our power goal of over 600hp on pump gas, I will be very excited about it. The story is scheduled to appear in our July issue.

As an extra bonus, we'll be doing a story on Jon Kaase's new P-51 head, a revision of the SCJ head. The test engine is a .060-over 460 with almost identical specs and price-range to the Howitzer. It will be interesting to compare the two.

ratuned
Feb 17th, 07, 8:23 PM
i am personally excited to see how you make out. in my opinion you have a very well thought out plan and are sticking to it. i hope this makes it into a project vehicle and we get to see how it drives, idles, gets beat on and how well it holds together. the dyno stories are cool but with everyone so critical about what is perceived as accurate i think the best way to go is to install the engine in a vehicle. i think most of your readers will be interested in its 1/4 mile performance and what you have to do tuning the engine and vehicle to maximize its full potential. the chrondeks don't lie. best of luck and i look forward to the future stories. mike

Tom Mobley
Feb 17th, 07, 8:35 PM
Johnny, you really think it's fair to compare stuff from Kaase's shop to stock Iron Eagles?

went and looked, here's his blurb on the new Ford heads:

-CNC Machined Chambers
-Flows over 400 Out of the Box
-CNC Machined Valve Bowls
-Improved Rocker Stud Locations

I wonder how this comparison is going to turn out? Three guesses, first two don't count. Is that Ford going to be assembled in somebody's home garage on a similar budget?

try comparing like-to-like, it'll look a lot better.

pdq67
Feb 17th, 07, 11:50 PM
I still say Harolds cam here...

"pdq67,

I've finally designed something, now I just have to make it......
A solid flat tappet replacement for the Comp Cams CB-288a-R10 their 11-692-8------
CB-288A-R10 288@.015 246@.050 158@.200 .622" valve lift 38-70-78-30
UDHarold's 285@.015 249@.050 161@.200 .618" valve lift 35-70-74-31

Their cam sells on their web site for $363.67, and the -8 in the part number means it IS NOT a steel billet. Lifters cost a good amount, too.
My cam will be a standard high-quality proferal cam--what solids have been made of for 30 years--and will cost around $168.75. Good Americian-made mechanical lifters are available at less than 25% the cost of solid roller lifters.
My cam stays .0176" away from the edge of the lifter, and I have had other cams that get closer to the edge go 100,000 miles on the street. The seating velocity is the same I have used on those 100,000 mile cams. Valve lash on mine is .018", on the Comp .020".
Because of changes in oil quality over the past 10 years, I would recommend using a lot of caution in breaking in ANY flat tappet solid or hydraulic cam.
The Comp Cams is symmetrical, mine, as always, is unsymmetrical. Look at the timing differences at .015"---My cam has a 4* longer power stroke, meaning more torque into your crank at ALL rpms, and a 3* later intake opening point, for less reversion and higher port velocities, again at ALL rpms.
At .050" and at .200", my cam is 3* fatter---Not only is it filling the cylinder faster, it has MORE time to do it.
The result---MORE POWER everywhere.
Now to get you guys some made......"

Harold said it use’s Chevy solid lifters too!

will do FINE!!!!

pdq67

Johnny Hunkins
Feb 19th, 07, 2:27 AM
The "cam" train has left the station already. We're going with the solid roller listed above. Maybe we'll do a flat-tappet down the road.

As for testing the Ford 460, my thinking is that the Ford guys will care very much how the results turn out. The P-51 is a very significant cylinder head in the Ford world, and the timing of its general release to the public coincides nicely with our big-block issue.

I would be crazy not to get it into the magazine ASAP. I still think the iron Dart heads will make a great showing for considerably less money. I won't criticize you guys for not reading the P-51 story though--you're Chevy guys.

Tom Mobley
Feb 19th, 07, 9:48 AM
I don't have anything against you covering the Ford head roll-out, but what is the point in running a comparison? As in, exactly what is your point? I'll bet there's Chevy guys on here with comparable heads who would be willing to contribute their dyno records for a comparo that makes a little more sense.

Johnny Hunkins
Feb 19th, 07, 3:58 PM
They will be two different stories published in the same issue. Sorry for not stating that earlier. It's not a direct comparison, but comparison will be inevitable as they will both be nominally street engines of about the same displacement and compression.

Tom Mobley
Feb 19th, 07, 4:08 PM
Johnny, thanks for posting.

Johnny Hunkins
Feb 20th, 07, 3:20 PM
The early word with Kaase's testing is that his 460 Ford made 698hp with the stock Victor intake and the as-delivered P-51 heads. JH

Tom Mobley
Feb 20th, 07, 3:30 PM
best F*rd deal I've ever heard of. wonder if they're streetable or some huge port deal that needs a big roller cam to work.

Ask him what the idle RPM and manifold vacuum numbers were.

30-A rider
Mar 6th, 07, 3:39 PM
Any update on this or was this all just blowing smoke?

In addition..did I miss it in reading this thread but at least twice I saw people question why if this is a budget build why are aftermarket heads being used. Most every budget build of a BB on this site involves something like 781 ovals with larger valaves and some port work which are supposed to support up to that 600 hp range and can flow easily to the 6000 rpm range. So "Johnny" why not use some core heads if its a true budget build I dont see how you can go with anything but?

Georgia69
Mar 6th, 07, 5:00 PM
A few years ago, I had a set of 781's hot tanked, surfaced, new valve guides, 2.19/1.88 valves installed, new valves, retainers, springs, locks, etc. Cost was right at $1,000. Maybe I could have found a cheaper machinist, but I think the Dart IE's are a great value at $1,200. I wish I had done that instead.

I run Dart IE180's on my 355 small block, and it was the best improvement I ever made to the car.

Props to Johnny for listening to all the "advice" without blowing a gasket, and I hope we get some real world results soon.

Johnny Hunkins
Mar 7th, 07, 1:34 AM
We are scheduled to put The Howitzer on the dyno on Monday, March 12. So until then, yes, I will be blowing smoke. The engine's built, so the only thing left to decide are the valve covers...

I will report on the dyno results as soon as we get them. As always, I want to thank you all for joining in with your suggestions.

Dragon0123
Mar 21st, 07, 5:55 PM
So the Dyno was March 12th.. its Now March 21st.. Have you got the numbers.??. Good luck with your build.. hope the hypers held up..

Johnny Hunkins
Mar 21st, 07, 8:22 PM
We got on the dyno and experienced bearing failure after a few pulls. We're optimistic about reaching our hp goal, but we need to rebuild the bottom end before we get back on the pump.

You won't read about the bearing failure in the mag, because it was an assembly error, as opposed to a parts failure. The spring elastomer that tightens the seal over the crank got pinched against the timing gear, and the motor ate it completely. After a few pulls, the bearings went south. One of the rocker arms got taken out with the bearings too.

We'll be back on the dyno in 10 days or so. We did make 578hp while the motor was self-destructing and before we started the tuning loop. We'll be grinding the crank 10/10, putting new bearings in, and swapping over to COMP 1.7 rocker arms just to be safe. Total cost on the build currently stands at $6,633.09, including machine work.

Questions?

Tom Mobley
Mar 21st, 07, 8:34 PM
stuff happens. always hurts when it does though.

stuff like this is why some of us run a blocked oil filter by-pass.

at least it didn't chunk pieces all over the room.

Thanks for updating us.

That was the front main seal? New one on me. at least it wasn't that set of expensive bearings that got hosed.

Johnny Hunkins
Mar 21st, 07, 9:36 PM
If you look close at a front seal, there's a tiny wound spring inside it. This pulls the rubber part of the seal tight to the crank. Either the balancer was pulled on too far, or the timing cover went on cocked. Probably my beginner mistake.

Tom Mobley
Mar 22nd, 07, 12:12 AM
that's usually referred to as a garter spring, many seals have them. Probably came off somehow installing the cover, then finished off with the balancer install. Too bad, but at least those initial numbers were promising.

gnicholson
Mar 22nd, 07, 5:29 AM
How did a lip seal spring cause bearing failure. Are you saying the spring made it past the filter and blocked an oil galley?

hmott
Mar 22nd, 07, 1:39 PM
I would put it in the article.. this build may be the first for others and its nice to know what mistakes NOT to make in the buildup also.

Johnny Hunkins
Mar 22nd, 07, 3:11 PM
This story will have so much meat in it, this stupid mistake will take up too much room in place of something more important--like how much stuff costs, how well it works, or how it's put together. I'll just lay it out for you guys now, and you'll be the ones in the loop. (Hey, if people want to get the whole story, guess they gotta come here, right?)

The garter spring in the front seal was pinched between the timing cover and timing gear. When the motor fired for the first time, it grabbed the garter spring, yanking it completely out. It got chewed up in the timing chain, then pieces got in the oil, crank, rods and even the top of the cylinder heads. The rods and counterweights are like a millstone that chews everything up.

This is a pretty big piece of metal for a motor to injest. The motor grinds it into smaller and smaller pieces, which eventually get into the oiling system. Most oil filters bypass about 60 percent of the oil anyway. Filters only clean incrementally, not absolutely.

Bowtie-72
Mar 22nd, 07, 3:41 PM
Here's a cool idea:

Write the buildup as it is all nice and clean, then the next month share the war stories of what went wrong and how you fixed it. I think lots of us like reading stories like this because we can relate to how things can go wrong. We also like reading about how to diagnose and fix those same problems. There hasn't been a good "what went wrong with this engine" story in a long time.

68KMENO
Mar 22nd, 07, 3:42 PM
Ok ...... now really how much did the ford guys paid you ?? ;)

Johnny Hunkins
Mar 22nd, 07, 6:15 PM
I'll start writing in print about how my engine ate itself the day after Car Craft and Hot Rod start doing the same. Until then, we'll write about the correct way to do things.

When stuff breaks and we write about it, it's always hate-mail city about how we're a bunch of idiots. True as it may be, I can think of a hundred better things to print in the same space.

Tom Mobley
Mar 22nd, 07, 6:49 PM
>>I'll start writing in print about how my engine ate itself the day after Car Craft and Hot Rod start doing the same.

somebody did do it at least once, I remember reading the article and being totally amazed.

Editorial space constraints will win out over all in the end. An editor who shall remain nameless once pointed out to me that you can't just add a page if you come up a little short, the minimum add is 4 pages and you gotta have something to fill it all up and advertising to pay for it. Duuhhh, I hadn't quite thought of it that way.

LevonH
Mar 23rd, 07, 12:25 AM
After watching this post from a distance, I would suggest that PHR:

-use some extra space to share all of the details
-recognize that they have a literate and intelligent readership
-put all the facts on the table
-start to realize that content is MORE important than advertising

Just some thoughts as I am really tired of the blah. blah. blah...........

Motorhead62
Mar 23rd, 07, 1:23 AM
I'll start writing in print about how my engine ate itself the day after Car Craft and Hot Rod start doing the same. Until then, we'll write about the correct way to do things.

When stuff breaks and we write about it, it's always hate-mail city about how we're a bunch of idiots. True as it may be, I can think of a hundred better things to print in the same space.

Hey Johnny,

Just tell the truth Dude. You won't regret it. The truth is always best. Even the best engine builders have a shag now and then, it happens to the best of us.

Freiburger always writes about the triumphs and the blunders. He is in your chain of command isn't he?

As has been said above, don't assume the readers are idiot's. There are alot of readers here at TC. The word will get out it if you don't divulge the truth.

By the way, your doing a great job with the magazine. I dig all the "Home Built Hot Rods" in the mag. Thanks! :D

2cool
Mar 23rd, 07, 3:56 AM
I personally wouldn't put it in after all people come to the mags looking for the pros and a story full of mishaps doesn't reflect that and somethings are best left unsaid.

Wolfplace
Mar 23rd, 07, 1:52 PM
I personally wouldn't put it in after all people come to the mags looking for the pros and a story full of mishaps doesn't reflect that and somethings are best left unsaid.
=
Hmmmm,,,,
I completly agree with Chris,,,,

I consider myself a "pro" & I certainly have no issue what so ever with admitting & sharing my screw-ups with folks as it is these we sometimes learn the most from.
Or at least hopefully we learn from them,,,, :p

Only my opinion but being a "pro" does not mean you don't make mistakes & I would think most folks undertaking these projects for the first few times would be happy to know they are not the only ones who ain't "perfect" :D

dreis454
Mar 23rd, 07, 2:18 PM
I think that the seal fitment issues are nothing that would make me judge you as an "idiot" If you forgot to put in rod bearings, well thats different.

Bowtie-72
Mar 23rd, 07, 2:49 PM
Hmmmmm, so I'm ONTO something, not on something......:bow: :hurray:

:cool:

mr
Apr 25th, 07, 9:14 PM
We are scheduled to put "The Howitzer on the dyno" on Monday, March 12. So until then, yes, I will be blowing smoke. The engine's built, so the only thing left to decide are the valve covers...

I will report on the dyno results as soon as we get them.
As always, I want to thank you all for joining in with your suggestions.
.................... Johnny, Did she BLOW, yet ?? .............What's the verdict ?? ...........................Don.

Johnny Hunkins
Apr 25th, 07, 9:47 PM
It made 579 hp, pretty much exactly the same as before. The story is done and will apprear in the July issue. Obviously, the result was underwhelming, so we're going to reconfigure it with stuff more in line with what you guys wanted initially. Details to follow in a few weeks. JH

mr
Apr 25th, 07, 10:06 PM
It made 579 hp, pretty much exactly the same as before. The story is done and will apprear in the July issue. Obviously, the result was underwhelming, so we're going to reconfigure it with stuff more in line with what you guys wanted initially. Details to follow in a few weeks. JH
579 hp, is'nt too shabby, for a 468cid street engine, with stock rod bolts & Hypereutectic slugs..
Good job, PHR editor ................ I'll check it out ................Thanks for the update, Regards, Don.

hpsherlin
Apr 25th, 07, 11:46 PM
Interesting long read. Good luck on your project, Johnny. The members here have great info. Not a engine builder myself but seems that more "budget" minded items could have been purchased such as the 781 heads reworked and made the same or better hp with a good cam and CR. And cheaper.....or maybe I got a great deal. Just pulled out my invoice from my 454 build last year by a local long time engine builder.
Disassembled engine, degreased blk, hds, crank etc. Bored the block .030, reconditioned glassbead and sized the rods, magnafluxed & polished the crank, 3 angle valve job, 781 heads cut .020, reworked and dialed in the HEI dist, honed the rod and piston eyes, and assembled the engine using all new...hypertectic pistons 9.97:1, speed pro rings, clevite 77 main and rod bearings, durobond cam bearings, victor gaskets, engine works roller timing set, speed pro oil pump, CC XE284, crane valve springs, k line bronze valve guides, comp valve locks, ARP sps rod bolts,
comp 1.72 roller tip rockers, ARP head bolts, speed pro 7/16 push rods, speed pro ss valves, b&b head bolt washers, and a GM guide plates.
Total price: $2700.67. Add the all new: Eddy endurashine air gap, 770 sa, water pump, balancer, alternator, alumnitech radiator, fan, fuel pump, flex plate, powermaster XS starter, billet pulleys, and flowtech ceramic headers purchased by myself for $2485.00 mostly thru Summit. Grand total of $5185.67 and used some bling such as the alumnitech rad, endurashine intake, billet pulleys which I could have saved money on. Should be pretty good hp/tq numbers.
I do not have the knowledge to build a motor so I rely on research and listening to others that do have to make my best decision. I would be a reader that could benefit from an article such as the one you are doing. Readers take to heart what you all say if they are dependent on strangers/mags for info and do not know locals/this forum that have the knowledge to share.
Best of luck and look forward to reading the article.
Herbie

Tom Mobley
Apr 26th, 07, 3:30 AM
stock heads, small roller, no fancy stuff, I don't see anything wrong with your 579. doesn't sound as good as 600, but it adds to your mags perceived integrity level that you published that instead of pulling some baloney to make it look better.

I recall that before it barfed it was at 578 with no tuning, your dyno guy couldn't drag a few more out of it with A/F ratios and timing stuff? Was there like not enough time to do the fine tuning?

$64K question, what are the comparative correction numbers between the two dyno sessions? It was the same dyno, wasn't it?

2cool
Apr 26th, 07, 4:25 AM
A carb change and an electric fan could fine another 20 ponies.

By the way it's making 1.23hp per cube

Wolfplace
Apr 26th, 07, 12:31 PM
It made 579 hp, pretty much exactly the same as before. The story is done and will apprear in the July issue. Obviously, the result was underwhelming, so we're going to reconfigure it with stuff more in line with what you guys wanted initially. Details to follow in a few weeks. JH
=
Johnny,
Now this I like to see in print, honest believable HP numbers :thumbsup:
Actually what I would consider very good, not underwhelming at all.

Great to see the results & if you compare them to some very real what I like to call "reality check" engines not to shabby at all.
These would be the GM 454 & 502 crate engines.

I have dynoed a few & they are very much in line with what the General says they are in every case,, at least on my dyno :yes:
Biggest difference was the correction, STD vs SAE which is about 4%
They do seem to pick up a "little" somewhat south of our location though,,,, probably just the air,,,, :D :D

Here is an older post to compare your numbers to if you would like.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139446&page=2
Post #19

Now,, if you would like about another 100HP with a few "bolt on parts" although not exactly within the constraints of a budget beater,,,,
I just recently did a 469 for a gentleman in So. Ca. that was very streetable, nothin' special & made way more than I expected.

Wolfplace
Apr 26th, 07, 1:00 PM
stock heads, small roller, no fancy stuff, I don't see anything wrong with your 579. doesn't sound as good as 600, but it adds to your mags perceived integrity level that you published that instead of pulling some baloney to make it look better.

I recall that before it barfed it was at 578 with no tuning, your dyno guy couldn't drag a few more out of it with A/F ratios and timing stuff? Was there like not enough time to do the fine tuning?

$64K question, what are the comparative correction numbers between the two dyno sessions? It was the same dyno, wasn't it?
=
Hi Tom,
Not exactly stock heads but very nice numbers none the less :thumbsup:
http://store.atechmotorsports.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D152125&N=710+0&autoview=sku (http://store.atechmotorsports.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D152125&N=710+0&autoview=sku)


A carb change and an electric fan could fine another 20 ponies.

By the way it's making 1.23hp per cube
=
Not real sure where you are coming up with 20 HP with a carb & I would assume you mean an electric water pump not fan??
I have back to backed Stewart pumps & an electric one & it was more on the order of,,, none,,, & this was on a small block.
Some info you might want to store away
http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_tips/Tech_Tips_7.htm

And the 850 Speed Demon if it was in decent tune is no slouch unless you are comparing it to a Dominator. :sad:

Most Demons I have played with either were very close at full throttle or a complete piece of crap,,,, didn't seem to be much in between :D

Johnny Hunkins
Apr 26th, 07, 2:46 PM
Great comments guys. I have to say that if I had done any of this without the benefit of this forum, I would've been caught flat-footed. Somebody wrote something a few pages back that has made me think of a cool strategy for my next move. When I get the pieces in place, I'll say more. Thanks, JH

dreis454
Apr 26th, 07, 3:01 PM
Johnny, After all this I don't believe your not a paying member yet!
Don't you want your own checkered flag next to your name?

RATtyCamino
Apr 26th, 07, 3:02 PM
=
Hi Tom,
Not exactly stock heads but very nice numbers none the less :thumbsup:
http://store.atechmotorsports.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D152125&N=710+0&autoview=sku (http://store.atechmotorsports.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D152125&N=710+0&autoview=sku)






Wolfplace

I wonder what the torque output should be on a combo like this? I've been looking at these heads for about 6 months and I think they may be the best kept secret in the big block aftermarket. With the smaller runner than a stock rec port and better combustion chamber...I think they might bridge the gap between a good oval port and a full out aluminum AFR/Brodix head. All for about $1300.

I'm planning a 10:1 compression 468 with these heads and about a 236 degree @ .050 cam.

Tom Mobley
Apr 26th, 07, 3:41 PM
Mike,

>>>"Hi Tom,
Not exactly stock heads but very nice numbers none the less
http://store.atechmotorsports.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D152125&N=71 0+0&autoview=sku "

Yeppers, Mike's right as usual. I didn't go back and read the whole thread before posting. Actually, he might have gotten there with a nice set of ovals, but they would probably have been more expensive by the time they got that "nice." Still a good job IMHO.

Personally, I think Johnny ought to awarded an honorary membership for having the cojones to show up here and play this out like he did. I personally think is an outstanding effort on his part to integrate net content and community knowledge into a paper magazine story. I've got a feeling we'll be seeing a lot more of this type of stuff in the future. Johnny might be a real pioneer. I haven't seen anything much like this anywhere else.

I'm going to go over and take out a subscription in his honor. It's been at least 10 years since I gave up on magazines.

dreis454
Apr 26th, 07, 3:45 PM
I'm going to go over and take out a subscription in his honor. It's been at least 10 years since I gave up on magazines.


ya know, I will too IF Johnny gets his flag!:yes: no matter if it's honorary or paid.

Tom Mobley
Apr 26th, 07, 3:56 PM
Johnny,

If you see this would you be interested in having a membership? I realized after bringing it up that it might not be "in the best interests..." Impartiality, independance, all that jazz.

dreis454
Apr 26th, 07, 4:00 PM
Johnny,

If you see this would you be interested in having a membership? I realized after bringing it up that it might not be "in the best interests..." Impartiality, independance, all that jazz.
I won't tell.

Beaux
Apr 26th, 07, 4:20 PM
Register as "Howitzer" and keep on the DL

We wont tell, you dont tell - stay covert. :D

Wolfplace
Apr 26th, 07, 11:47 PM
Wolfplace

I wonder what the torque output should be on a combo like this? I've been looking at these heads for about 6 months and I think they may be the best kept secret in the big block aftermarket. With the smaller runner than a stock rec port and better combustion chamber...I think they might bridge the gap between a good oval port and a full out aluminum AFR/Brodix head. All for about $1300.

I'm planning a 10:1 compression 468 with these heads and about a 236 degree @ .050 cam.
=
Hi Bill.
Easy 550 would be my guess, probably more.

Here is the last one I did that I mentioned
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1176796#post1176796

RATtyCamino
Apr 27th, 07, 8:34 AM
=
Hi Bill.
Easy 550 would be my guess, probably more.

Here is the last one I did that I mentioned
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1176796#post1176796 (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1176796#post1176796)

Thanks Mike.:beers:

I've always found your posts highly informative.....and a real "voice of reason" when it comes to realistic build ups.:thumbsup:

Bill

Johnny Hunkins
Apr 27th, 07, 12:41 PM
If memory serves me, it made 547 or 545 tq. JH

RATtyCamino
Apr 27th, 07, 1:56 PM
If memory serves me, it made 547 or 545 tq. JH


Thanks Johnny,

As I stated earlier in the thread, maybe on page one:D , I can't wait to see the build up in the magazine. I'm basically doing the same thing with a 468, but with forged pistons and your original type cam choice. A magnum 286 or 292.

Also, I know you guys used a RPM airgap-R..did it match up to the Dart/summit's ports well? What intake would be the best physical match?

Thanks,
Bill

Johnny Hunkins
Apr 27th, 07, 5:19 PM
Here are the dyno results from the story. Shhhh. Don't tell a soul...


On The Dyno
468-inch Ironman Big-Block Chevy
2-inch long-tube test headers
DTS Engine Dyno
Tested at Speed-O-Motive

RPM Torque Horsepower
3,000 502 286
3,200 523 318
3,400 532 344
3,600 536 367
3,800 541 392
4,000 543 413
4,200 545 435
4,400 538 451
4,600 536 469
4,800 535 489
5,000 529 504
5,200 527 522
5,400 523 538
5,600 519 554
5,800 512 565
6,000 505 577
6,200 490 579
6,400 472 575

mr
Apr 27th, 07, 10:30 PM
As for the cam being a catalog grind -- it is not. I'm using the Xtreme 280 lobe profile -- not the shelf cam. If it matters, David Vizard helped me spec the cam. I only know enough about cams to get me into trouble.
Ours will have the 280 lobe on both intake and exhaust, and have a 108 LSA
(versus the XSR280 shelf grind with a 280 intake lobe, a 286 exhaust lobe, and a 110 LSA).

By the way, the COMP custom camshaft grind is as follows, and uses the,
4874 Xtreme Energy lobe profile (solid street roller, big-block journal): 4874B/4874B SR108+4
Here are the dyno results from the story. Shhhh. Don't tell a soul...


On The Dyno
468-inch Ironman Big-Block Chevy
2-inch long-tube test headers
DTS Engine Dyno
Tested at Speed-O-Motive

RPM Torque Horsepower
3,000 502 286
3,200 523 318
3,400 532 344
3,600 536 367
3,800 541 392
4,000 543 413
4,200 545 435
4,400 538 451
4,600 536 469
4,800 535 489
5,000 529 504
5,200 527 522
5,400 523 538
5,600 519 554
5,800 512 565
6,000 505 577
6,200 490 579
6,400 472 575
"Over 500 pounds of torque, from 3000rpm - 6000rpm ...... that will sit you back, into your seat" ....

JH ..... Are these Comp "XR 280 R" 'revised numbers', close to your "custom grind" camshaft specifications ....

Gross Valve Lift ............ intake 0.646 ... exhaust 0.646
Duration At 0.015 ......... intake 280 ...... exhaust 280
Duration At 0.05 ........... intake 242 ...... exhaust 242

Stock "LS6" type duration, with, LOTS MORE LIFT ...... [and more everything, else] ................Don.

Wolfplace
Apr 28th, 07, 12:11 AM
Here are the dyno results from the story. Shhhh. Don't tell a soul...


On The Dyno
468-inch Ironman Big-Block Chevy
2-inch long-tube test headers
DTS Engine Dyno
Tested at Speed-O-Motive

RPM Torque Horsepower
3,000 502 286
3,200 523 318
3,400 532 344
3,600 536 367
3,800 541 392
4,000 543 413
4,200 545 435
4,400 538 451
4,600 536 469
4,800 535 489
5,000 529 504
5,200 527 522
5,400 523 538
5,600 519 554
5,800 512 565
6,000 505 577
6,200 490 579
6,400 472 575
=
That is one kick ass torque curve, it is going to be a blast to drive :thumbsup:
It would make for a killer boat engine too,,

Don,
Not to speak for John but yes, the XR 280 lobe is a 4874

So it would look like something like this:

11-000-9 (11= BB, 000=custom, 9= billet)
XR4874B/XR4874B-R8
Option 1 or special instructions
Cast iron distributor gear
Grind w/ 4° advance

And it ain't even close to the old 3143 cam, only the .050 numbers are the same
Less seat timing by a ton, tighter seperation, way more lift & the 200 numbers would absoultly kill the old flat tappet cam ;)
They are 164 for info

Johnny Hunkins
Apr 28th, 07, 3:58 PM
Yeah, what he said.

Mr.L-88
Apr 30th, 07, 11:55 AM
Just joined this party last week….wow where have I been??? Although I have only owned 2 A body’s (69 SS396 elCamino and Laguna S3 Drag car) I am a BBC fiend. This Howitzer thing has really made some waves; but in the end it makes some good numbers just think what it would do with some spray!....Ooof. Anyway, being a long time David V. fan/follower I am curious…. How did these numbers compare to that 781/049 headed tow truck engine that he publicized a few years back. This engine used 2.19” valves with a 30° seat cut to his special dimensions (That were not correctly published B.T.W.) A modern cam grind would probably help this engine as well. Another comparison of and old “magazine engine” that might be interesting would be the 496 J.L. built engine published in a Sep.86 CC article called “Monster Mash” Made 612hp with 781/049’s , 6.135 rods, Milled Speed Pro Forged pistons, and a Comp 288 street roller. With the new affordable cast steel cranks available this one should be a pretty good value. Both of these engines didn’t have many big$ aftermarket pieces to make the advertisers happy; but they do represent a couple of good builds that could be done for a nice $/Power ratio by a person in possession of a good core 454 ton truck type engine. Not posting to bash the engine, just recognize and compare differences and alternate possibilities. I will end with a two part question. How does that thing sound at idle and if it weren’t going to be published for all of the world to see could it pass as a 396/375?

OutCast
May 4th, 07, 4:50 AM
Wow, just spent the last hour reading this entire thread. My eyes are bugging. Some really good debate here. Thanks for the good read.

http://bestsmileys.com/dogs/3.gif

Johnny Hunkins
May 4th, 07, 8:01 PM
Wait until the story hits. You're really going to like all the details in there. JH

70 beater
May 4th, 07, 8:13 PM
You should include a link to this thread in the story :D

Johnny Hunkins
May 4th, 07, 9:28 PM
There are so many references to chevelles.com in PHR, I think readers would be suspicious if I added another. Besides, I think it's time for another thread anyway. Nobody reads 'em through when they get this long...

Tom Mobley
May 5th, 07, 7:09 PM
you're right, and that's too bad. This thread has a ton of information in it. Lots of stuff for a guy planning his own build to look at and think over.

pdq67
May 5th, 07, 10:51 PM
Then keep the sucker going..............

If I can go through 247 pages o HaulnSS's girls and cars over on Little Brother, I can sure re-read this one!!

pdq67

MarkM
May 9th, 07, 1:27 PM
Great comments guys. I have to say that if I had done any of this without the benefit of this forum, I would've been caught flat-footed. Somebody wrote something a few pages back that has made me think of a cool strategy for my next move. When I get the pieces in place, I'll say more. Thanks, JH


496?

Johnny Hunkins
May 10th, 07, 3:05 PM
No more calls please, we have a winner. JH

Motorhead62
May 11th, 07, 2:51 AM
No more calls please, we have a winner. JH

??????? :confused:

Johnny Hunkins
May 13th, 07, 11:04 PM
...meaning that "496" was correct...

It's a figure of speech, meaning the guess was correct.

540Hotrod
May 14th, 07, 1:15 AM
That IS a sweet TQ curve there Johnny. Still hanging in there at 6400 rpm too!

Good buildup...let's try it in the car...THEN pull it and do a 496..then put it back in the car to compare.


JIM

Johnny Hunkins
May 14th, 07, 12:39 PM
We've started on the stroker already, so that's impossible.

We don't let any grass grow under our feet.

flink69SS
May 14th, 07, 3:17 PM
JH-
I have an almost identical build except for a couple items. I see you are getting 100 more HP than me. I dynoed 394 to rear wheels with an M20, 36* adv. and an air/fuel mixture of 13. Does something jump out with my build?

Your Parts-
My Parts-
454 Mark IV core
Same
Hypereutectic pistons, .060-over
Same
Rings: Summit/Total Seal-gapless
???
Main Bearings: Clevite 77 H-series
Clevite
Rod bearings: Clevite 77 H-series
Clevite
Cam bearings: Summit/Clevite CLE
???
Cast iron heads, complete
702's 219/188
Head bolts: Summit/ARP
Same
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM Airgap
Weiand Team G Single Plane
Intake bolt kit: Summit/ARP
Same
Carb: 850-cfm Mighty Demon Carburetor
Quick Fuel 850
stud kit: Summit SUM-G1421 $3.69
Cam: Summit/COMP CCA-11-000-8
Comp # CCA-450-8
Grind No: 4874B/4874B SR108+4
CB 290H-R10
Balancer bolt kit: Summit/COMP SUM-G1678
???
Lifters: Summit/COMP Endure-X CCA-866-16
COMP Pro Magnum Hydraulic
Timing set: Summit SUM-G6610 $37.95
Rocker arms: PRW 1.73:1
COMP Pro Magnum Roller 1.7
Pushrods (intake): Summit/Trick Flow,
7/16
Pushrods (exhaust): Summit/Trick Flow,
7/16

Is it the heads???

Johnny Hunkins
May 14th, 07, 3:31 PM
It's the heads and cam mostly. We used a solid roller with .647 lift versus your hydraulic cam. A set of stock heads like yours isn't going to flow anything close to a set of Dart iron heads (which is what the Summit ones are). At .650 lift, the Summit heads flow between 330 and 355 cfm.

We're switching to the aluminum RHS heads and a milder, hydraulic roller cam when we do the budget 496 stroker assembly. It should be interesting to see if we can make the same or more power with a milder set-up and more cubes.

What with the extra cost be? What will the benefits be? Will it be worth it? What's the sweet spot in the cost/value/performance equation? That's what we're trying to fine tune.

flink69SS
May 14th, 07, 3:37 PM
[QUOTE=Johnny Hunkins;1347423]It's the heads and cam mostly. We used a solid roller with .647 lift versus your hydraulic cam. A set of stock heads like yours isn't going to flow anything close to a set of Dart iron heads (which is what the Summit ones are). At .650 lift, the Summit heads flow between 330 and 355 cfm. QUOTE]

I know what I'll be swapping out this fall...:yes:
Thanks for your input and one great hunk of reading...:thumbsup:

Johnny Hunkins
May 26th, 07, 11:49 AM
Found out something interesting about the Dart/Summit heads this week. When we bench flowed the new aluminum RHS heads at Westech, they flowed much less than the Darts. Could this be true? Since the Darts were originally flowed on another bench at another shop, we decided to take the time to re-flow the Darts on Westech's bench. Guess what? The Dart/Summits mysteriously lost 20 - 30 cfm.

It just goes to show you all flow benches are not alike. Ultimately, the most important thing is the relative difference in flow. It's easy to get caught up in the absolute value of a flow number. When we do the story, we'll obviously have to print a revised flow chart for the Dart/Summit heads along with the aluminum RHS heads.

I still like the Dart/Summit Iron Eagles though. Even with the 20 - 30 cfm difference, the Summit heads hold their own up to .500-inch lift. The air stalls finally at .600. For a guy running a hydraulic cam, there won't be any difference between the RHS and the Dart except the weight and the octane tolerance from being aluminum. With our COMP Thumpr hydraulic roller cam topping out at .570 lift, that's the only big benefit we'll be getting.

I'm going to Andy Mitchell's shop today to put the 496 together. Should be fun. I'm grilling ribeyes for lunch. If everything goes perfectly, we'll be on the dyno in another week or two.

Tom Mobley
May 26th, 07, 3:48 PM
Johnny, I must have missed it, when did you decide to go with the noisemaker cam? Did you have that all along? I thought you had a custom ground billet roller?

Johnny Hunkins
May 27th, 07, 2:22 AM
We built the 468, dyno'd it, wrote the story, and we've moved on to the next iteration.

It's now a 496 with a Scat 9000 rotating assembly, Forged SRP 10.2:1 pistons, RHS 320 heads (& beehive springs!), and BMT Thumpr cam with hydraulic roller lifters.

Same Air Gap intake and 825 Mighty Demon carb.

I decided on the cam after looking at the specs and forgetting about the ad hype. The specs were really close to what I wanted, so rather than try to outsmart the system and design my own cam, I decided to try a "box" cam. If the cam sounds cool as a side benefit, so be it. I wanted the 107 LSA and hydraulic roller to get away from the solid roller lifters. It specs out at .570/.554 & 243/257 @ .050 (299/319 adv.)

We built it today--except for the pushrods, which we have to order. We'll be on the dyno no later than June 5. Anybody want to take a stab at guessing the HP peak?

70 beater
May 27th, 07, 2:49 AM
570 lb ft 605 hp :D grabbed these outta thin air.

edit: My desktop has it at 634 hp @ 6000 and 624 lb ft at 4500.It's close sometimes :)

Johnny Hunkins
May 27th, 07, 3:54 AM
So is your official guess 605 & 570?

I'm going to offer a prize to the guy who gets closest. How about I give away a new Mooneyes shirt they just sent me?

ZZ69chevelle
May 27th, 07, 5:07 AM
I wanna play, 623HP, 598TQ. I got those numbers straight from my ..... :D

Steve, please avoid using cruddy language like that on here.

Edited by moderator Tom Mobley

Johnny Hunkins
May 27th, 07, 4:35 PM
ok, we've got 623. In case of a tie, TQ will the the tie-breaker. Any more takers? JH

70 beater
May 27th, 07, 5:24 PM
So is your official guess 605 & 570?

Yep.Shoot low and don't go over,be the closest,win the prize,right :)?I think the engine should be the prize.Although my Jim Dunn t-shirt is worn out.

chevguy65
May 27th, 07, 5:29 PM
613 and 584

69bigblock
May 27th, 07, 7:05 PM
618 hp 626 tq..I'm in.

grovey
May 27th, 07, 8:48 PM
edit; I missed the hr cam part. my new guess is 592 hp 606 tq .

Johnny Hunkins
May 27th, 07, 9:26 PM
Just curious, who among you has built a similar engine with a hydraulic roller cam?

Wolfplace
May 27th, 07, 10:04 PM
Just curious, who among you has built a similar engine with a hydraulic roller cam?
=
I be guilty but it has been a few years :D

Johnny Hunkins
May 27th, 07, 10:11 PM
OK, so what did it make? And who else wants to make a guess on the HP bet? BTW, I'm hitting up COMP Cams for a free T-shirt to the winner.

Motorhead62
May 28th, 07, 1:26 AM
620 HP and 630 TQ = My guess :D

73guna
May 28th, 07, 1:28 AM
606hp 595tq

Wolfplace
May 28th, 07, 3:00 AM
OK, so what did it make? And who else wants to make a guess on the HP bet? BTW, I'm hitting up COMP Cams for a free T-shirt to the winner.
=
Hi Johnny,
This is the engine:
It was originally built with a Comp XR294 242/248 hyd roller that broke a link bar on the fifth dyno pull.
It made the same 610 lbs ft @ 4500 as the solid below but the Hp was 620 at 5900,

Went into valve float at 6100 on the first pull so was never run above 6000 & I never got a chance to change springs, the customer wanted nothing to do with another hyd roller.



496, 9.8 compression,
AFR 315's,
Vic Jr, 1"spacer 850 Demon,
Custom Comp roller 254/260- .698/.666-111 sep,
Isky Red Zones,
2" dyno headers

670HP@ 6300 @ 610tt lbs @ about 45-4600.

This was on a dyno considered pretty conservative,,, Mine :)
Also this engine was pulling over 2" of vacuum from around 5500 on up which means the carb was too small.
Add some compression and a little more carb & I have little doubt it would have gone about 700 honest HP.

mr
May 28th, 07, 11:19 AM
Here are the dyno results from the, "Howitzer" ... "468-inch Ironman Big-Block Chevy" ...

@ 4,200 RPM - maximum Torque = 545#
@ 6,200 RPM - max. Horsepower = 579

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's now a 496 with a Scat 9000 rotating assembly, Forged SRP 10.2:1 pistons, RHS 320 heads (& beehive springs!).

[ When we bench flowed the new aluminum RHS heads at Westech, they flowed much less than the Darts. Could this be true? We decided to take the time to re-flow the Darts on Westech's bench. Guess what? The Dart/Summits mysteriously lost 20 - 30 cfm.

For a guy running a hydraulic cam, there won't be any difference between the RHS and the Dart except the weight and the octane tolerance from being aluminum. With our COMP Thumpr hydraulic roller cam topping out at .570 lift, that's the only big benefit we'll be getting.]

Same, Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap intake and 825 Mighty Demon carb.

I decided to try a "BMT Thumpr hydraulic roller lifter", "box" cam.
I wanted the 107 LSA and hydraulic roller to get away from the solid roller lifters.
It specs out at .570/.554 & 243/257 @ .050 ( 299/319 adv.)

Anybody want to take a stab at guessing the HP peak?
My best guess is, 615 horsepower @ 5900rpm - and - 579 #torque @ 4000rpm .........
This appears to be, a very well equipped, "496 street engine" ......... "lots of nice, horsepower parts" ... Don.

Johnny Hunkins
May 30th, 07, 1:33 AM
I got word from COMP that they'll throw in a free T-shirt for the guy on this board who guesses the closest to the HP peak. I think I can also get a free (large) garage banner to go along with it too.

The dyno day is scheduled for this Friday, so Thursday night is the deadline for taking your best stab at the number.

Step right up folks... (sound of circus caliope in background)

2cool
May 30th, 07, 4:06 AM
679 horsepower @ 6000rpm @ 658 torque @ 4500rpm flywheel.

What really looks wild is when you add a 200 shot to the mix and get a tq reading of 1076@2000rpm! gonna take a good drive train to move it.:D

Johnny Hunkins
May 30th, 07, 12:38 PM
I like your positive outlook. I hope you're right with that guess.

Scotch
May 30th, 07, 12:41 PM
Best of luck with it Amigo...!

~SP~

2cool
May 30th, 07, 2:24 PM
I like your positive outlook. I hope you're right with that guess.

I used a desktop dyno. I didn't know if your cam was at .050 adv. so I used seat to seat .570"

Here is the printout with the 200hp shot:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/gregs_photo/Junk/dynopull.jpg

Johnny Hunkins
May 30th, 07, 2:55 PM
The model might be reading a bit high. You've got the compression set at 10.5 instead of 10.2. The exhaust lift is .554, not .570 (intake is .570). The LSA is 107, not 108, the carb is 825 cfm, not 850, the duration at .050 is 243/257, and the intake valve is 2.25, not 2.30.

I'll have to plug those numbers into my Dynomation program and see what comes out.

Dragon0123
May 31st, 07, 5:03 PM
650 hp @ 6000
650 trq @ 4500

Johnny Hunkins
May 31st, 07, 5:16 PM
I have a bet with the guys at the engine shop similar to this one. Three of us put $20 in a pot. The one closest to the final power peak gets the pot. I put my money on 609HP.

Johnny Hunkins
May 31st, 07, 9:54 PM
So far, here are your guesses. We go on the pump tomorrow, so now’s your last chance to add to the list. I’ve decided to publish a sidebar on this, so in addition to the free t-shirt, you’ll get noted for it in the mag too.

70 beater: you need to pick which set of numbers you’re officially going by (your own guess, or your computer’s guess).

Only the the HP peak number counts, but feel free to guess the torque or rpm. The torque peak will be used as a tie-breaker.

Howitzer Horsepower Bets:

Dragon0123:
650HP @ 6,000 rpm
650 lb-ft @ 4,500 rpm

2cool:
679HP @ 6,000 rpm
658 lb-ft @ 4,500 rpm

mr:
615HP @ 5,900 rpm
579 lb-ft @ 4,000 rpm

hamrdown (mitch):
606HP
595 lb-ft

Motorhead62:
620HP
630 lb-ft

grovey:
592HP
606 lb-ft

69bigblock:
618HP
626 lb-ft

chevyguy65:
613HP
584 lb-ft

ZZ69chevelle:
623 HP
598 lb-ft

70 beater:
605 HP
570 lb-ft

Or choose desktop guess at 634HP (6,000 rpm) and 624 lb-ft (4,500 rpm)

LoveHammer
Jun 1st, 07, 12:43 AM
631HP
624TQ

By the way, I subscribed to your mag because of this thread. I honestly haven't read PHR since my high school days when Project X graced virtually every issue. The mag has improved greatly, the last issue was fantastic.

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 1st, 07, 1:42 AM
Thanks for subscribing. We've been trying to convert people who previously wrote us off. Looks like it's working. And Project X will be making a comeback in the next 12 months...

Sandy
Jun 1st, 07, 2:49 AM
After seeing the damage in my destroyed hypereutectic piston engine, I would NEVER again run these pistons at the race track.

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 1st, 07, 4:37 AM
We used the hypereutectic KBs in the 468, and they were fine. We're using 18cc dome SRP forgings in the 496. Is it possible you got the reject pistons? Sometimes they send those ones to Canada...

Bowtie-72
Jun 1st, 07, 11:10 AM
629hp
644tq

70 beater
Jun 1st, 07, 6:01 PM
605hp 570 tq

thought I said that?

Sandy
Jun 1st, 07, 11:56 PM
Mr. Johnny Hunkins

The pistons were sealed power, speed pro NOT Keith Black. The #2 piston disintegrated because of a broken timing chain and #2 exhaust valve hitting the piston and breaking off. Both #1 and #2 pistons, rods and cylinders were totally destroyed including the block.

Had the pistons been forged, there would likely only have been a broken valve, damaged piston to deal with.

As far as the reject stuff coming to Canada, that was many years ago. Now we both get the same reject stuff from across the ocean.

If you prefer to use hypereutectic pistons that is your choice, but be fair and admit that they do not stand up very well to detonation or impact forces from any broken pieces. A hyper piston failure usually destroys the block.

By the way what engine/car combo are you running?

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 2nd, 07, 1:27 AM
Damn, and I really wanted to throw small bolts down my carburetor when it was running...


OFFICIAL RESULTS:

PEAK HP: 626.2 @ 5,900 rpm
PEAK TQ: 635.2 lb-ft @ 3,900 rpm

AND THE WINNER IS:
Bowtie-72:
629 HP
644 lb-ft

THE OTHER GUESSES:

thedude:
631 HP
624 lb-ft

Dragon0123:
650 HP @ 6,000 rpm
650 lb-ft @ 4,500 rpm

2cool:
679 HP @ 6,000 rpm
658 lb-ft @ 4,500 rpm

mr:
615 HP @ 5,900 rpm
579 lb-ft @ 4,000 rpm

hamrdown (mitch):
606 HP
595 lb-ft

Motorhead62:
620 HP
630 lb-ft

grovey:
592 HP
606 lb-ft

69bigblock:
618 HP
626 lb-ft

chevyguy65:
613 HP
584 lb-ft

ZZ69chevelle:
623 HP
598 lb-ft

70 beater:
605 HP
570 lb-ft



Bowtie-72, please email me your contact info to me at john.hunkins@primedia.com. You've just won a t-shirt!

ZZ69chevelle
Jun 2nd, 07, 4:11 AM
Dang, I lost out by .4 HP :clonk:

Sandy
Jun 2nd, 07, 10:31 AM
Mr. Johnny Hunkins


I am commenting on a legitimate source of engine failure and you are adding comments about putting bolts in the motor.

Motorhead62
Jun 2nd, 07, 12:37 PM
Damn, and I really wanted to throw small bolts down my carburetor when it was running...


OFFICIAL RESULTS:

PEAK HP: 626.2 @ 5,900 rpm
PEAK TQ: 635.2 lb-ft @ 3,900 rpm

AND THE WINNER IS:
Bowtie-72:
629 HP
644 lb-ft

THE OTHER GUESSES:

thedude:
631 HP
624 lb-ft

Dragon0123:
650 HP @ 6,000 rpm
650 lb-ft @ 4,500 rpm

2cool:
679 HP @ 6,000 rpm
658 lb-ft @ 4,500 rpm

mr:
615 HP @ 5,900 rpm
579 lb-ft @ 4,000 rpm

hamrdown (mitch):
606 HP
595 lb-ft

Motorhead62:
620 HP
630 lb-ft

grovey:
592 HP
606 lb-ft

69bigblock:
618 HP
626 lb-ft

chevyguy65:
613 HP
584 lb-ft

ZZ69chevelle:
623 HP
598 lb-ft

70 beater:
605 HP
570 lb-ft



Bowtie-72, please email me your contact info to me at john.hunkins@primedia.com. You've just won a t-shirt!

My guess was pretty darn close! :confused:

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 2nd, 07, 1:54 PM
What do you want me to say Sandy? You used the mechanical equivalent of a replacement piston in a high-performance engine. Some of us choose to do that, and get lucky. But some don't. I'm a family guy, and that's the kind of risk I'll sometimes take to save some money. As a magazine editor, it's also the kind of risk I'm willing to take in order to discover the truth.

If you want to tell everybody how much you hate cast pistons, be my guest. I won't stop you.

2cool
Jun 2nd, 07, 2:12 PM
Mr. Johnny Hunkins


I am commenting on a legitimate source of engine failure and you are adding comments about putting bolts in the motor.

:clonk:

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 2nd, 07, 2:19 PM
You wanna post a lo-res photo of the engine for me?

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 2nd, 07, 2:33 PM
In the meantime, here's the dyno results. The figures are rounded to the nearest whole number.

Dyno Results:
Howitzer 496 Big-Block Chevy
2.250-inch Dyno Headers
RPM: TQ: HP:
3,100 597 353
3,200 600 365
3,300 607 382
3,400 616 399
3,500 624 416
3,600 630 432
3,700 633 446
3,800 635 460
3,900 635 472
4,000 633 482
4,100 630 492
4,200 627 501
4,300 624 511
4,400 623 522
4,500 622 533
4,600 620 543
4,700 618 553
4,800 616 563
4,900 613 572
5,000 611 582
5,100 609 591
5,200 605 599
5,300 600 606
5,400 594 611
5,500 587 615
5,600 581 619
5,700 574 623
5,800 566 625
5,900 557 626
6,000 547 625
6,100 537 624

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 2nd, 07, 3:04 PM
http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x70/johnnyhunkins/?action=view&current=LO-RES_HOWITZER.jpg

69-CHVL
Jun 2nd, 07, 4:01 PM
Great thread Johnny, and great power!

How is the idle quality/vacuum @ what rpms?

Looks like a timid thumper that once awoken would just b!tch slap ya!

Vince

Steve439
Jun 2nd, 07, 5:16 PM
Thanks for subscribing. We've been trying to convert people who previously wrote us off.

Count me in as a returning former subscriber. I gave up about ten years ago.
Just got my first (July) issue. Nice plugs for the forum!

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 2nd, 07, 9:08 PM
Still waiting for an email from our winner, Bowtie-72. When I first saw the specs on the BMT Thumpr cam, I had to stifle a laugh. COMP is marketing it as a "noise" cam, but it's really a powerhouse for the street. The trick behind it seems to be the narrow LSA. As far as I know, PHR is the first magazine to dyno test a big-block Thumpr. The idle vacuum isn't very much, just a few inches, but I've got manual brakes. I'm pretty sure this 496 makes like 300 lb-ft of torque at idle.

As a side note, we swapped the 825 Mightly Demon (annular boosters) for a larger 850 Mighty Demon with downleg boosters. While pricing the engine out for the story, I discovered that the bigger 850 carb is actually about $17 cheaper. In fact, if you read the first story ("The Ironman," in the July issue) you'll remember the total price being around $6,633 for the 579HP 468. When I totalled up the bill for this aluminum-headed 496 stroker, it was only about $900 more. If you want all the details, you'll need to buy the September issue of PHR.

Nicks406
Jun 2nd, 07, 11:08 PM
Think there would be a decent size chunk of HP missing if you used real 2 or 2 1/8" chevelle headers vs the giant dyno headers? Torque would prob go up down low though! :thumbsup:

70 beater
Jun 3rd, 07, 2:41 AM
Different curves than my desktop dyno,parts were pretty close though.D.D. is in 500 rpm increments though.My guess blew it.Good #s Johnny H. :D

D.D. @ 4500-624 lb ft 535 hp

actual @ 4500-622 lb ft 533 hp

editI noticed I had a mistake on my D.D.,had an 850 cfm instead of 825,the numbers got closer with the correction,across the board.@ 4500-623 lb ft 534 hp

How do I copy and paste the screenshot of D.D.?

2cool
Jun 3rd, 07, 3:23 AM
Johnny if you use the IMG link in your post they will apear here like this:

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x70/johnnyhunkins/LO-RES_HOWITZER.jpg

:D

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 3rd, 07, 10:13 PM
I couldn't find any instructions on the site for posting photos. A search of thread topics didn't pull up anything either, except a bunch of guys asking how, and not getting any answers. I'll figure it out eventually when I get some time.

2cool
Jun 3rd, 07, 10:53 PM
Right beside your picture there is a code that says this:

{IMG Code - Forums & Bulletin Boards}

Just copy and paste that and thats all.

Tom Mobley
Jun 4th, 07, 12:51 AM
Johnny,

If you want to post a pic don't use the quick reply box under the last post in the thread. Instead, hit the Post Reply at the left. When it brings up the full reply page scroll down a little to see a header "Manage Attachments". hit it, it'll allow let you upload a pic to our server, it'll appear in your post.

Tom Mobley
Jun 4th, 07, 12:53 AM
BTW Johnny, I went and signed up for 2 years of PHR. First time I've paid for a magazine subscription in recent decades. :)

And thanks for signing up here. Welcome and stop by anytime.

Bowtie-72
Jun 5th, 07, 11:31 AM
Still waiting for an email from our winner, Bowtie-72.


Sorry about the wait, tied up getting my own car running

I replied to the PM. Thanks again!:hurray: :hurray:

Johnny Hunkins
Jun 19th, 07, 2:42 AM
Bryan--I just sent our your "prize" package today. You'll be getting a few extra items in the box that I think you'll like. Obviously, the COMP Cams Thumpr T-shirt in XL, but some other good stuff too. Sorry it took so long, but I just got the COMP shirt in today.

Hope you enjoy! And tell all your friends about us too...

Bowtie-72
Jun 19th, 07, 11:20 AM
COOL. THANKS!


:hurray::cool: