Most power out of a 396 bb [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: Most power out of a 396 bb


corbinwelter
Dec 31st, 06, 4:38 PM
Whats the most power anyone has heard of or seen in a 396 big block? Im shooting for atleast 600, but would like more. I know i could go with a 454 or bigger for more power, but you sure dont ever see a high hp 396 very often.

sschevellefan
Dec 31st, 06, 5:12 PM
Whats the most power anyone has heard of or seen in a 396 big block? Im shooting for atleast 600, but would like more. I know i could go with a 454 or bigger for more power, but you sure dont ever see a high hp 396 very often.


Thats because it`s to expencive to try to get that kind of power from the smaller 396/402 motors. If you want that kind of power you`ll need a blower or NOS to to it. Your not going to do it N/A and still have a streetable ride. If your stuck with your motor, try shooting for 400-500hp, much easier to accomplish. Also, try the search option for 396/402 combos.

Aaron
Dec 31st, 06, 7:23 PM
From what I have researched, I think a streeable 396 producing 450 horse, maybe 475 is about it.

There is a guy here with a 500 horse 396, but I'm not sure how streetable it is.

ddeennis
Dec 31st, 06, 9:09 PM
i have built many 396 combos over the years and they produce very good power and ci to ci inch your only down the 50 or so hp over a 454 at the peak numbers so its not that big of a deal.

my last combo was comming out to about 475 hp with alot of stock parts and before someone bad mouths me about this you can't argue about the 107 mph trap speeds in a 3900 lbs plus car with 2.73 gears. it takes some power to move a heavy car and gears like that to 107 mph trap speeds. and this was a very mild manner street car.

i have ran the 396 motors in the 10's on some 150 hp nos shots using stock heads and cast cranks and rods with no more then forged factory style replacement piston and a factory grind ZL-1 cam. this was a streetable combo that ran 115 mph trap speeds in a 3600 lbs car n/a. it was a rough street combo but i still managed 11 mpg on the highway with 3.70 gears and 850 double pumper on my road trips.

one thing for sure the 396 motors sure do rev easy and seem to like it. at least the ways i have built them. i started with my first 396 back in 1990 and i have done everything a low buck racer can do to make power out of them. some things i learned the hard way from not listening to others and other things i found out thru trial and error.

depending on what most think is streetable it depends, but using stock cast crank and stock rods and stock heads like the 049 or about any of the large oval ports , ported out to some degree and larger valves and play attention to alot of the small details like the notch in the block and matching your heads to the block and gaskets and unshrouding valves and back cut the valves and picking the right cam and intake and carb and knowing how to set up the timming curve and the carb and everything else. you can get 500 hp easy and be very streetable with a 233/239 hyd. cam. or just slightly bigger. but if you just know how to put parts on and engine and dont know much more then that then you are looking at giving up at least 100 hp or more to the lack of understanding

making hp is more then putting parts in an engine you need the know how to build and to understand what the engine is doing and what effects what.

boy what was the q? ......lol

600 hp, sure you can do it n/a, i would say aftermarket heads and roller cam.

Junkyard Dawg
Dec 31st, 06, 9:14 PM
Bracketchev1221 claims he made 501 hp with a 396 bored .060 to make a 408 with 781 casting heads, .574/.588 solid lifter cam. 248/259 duration at .050. The motor had about 10.3-1 compression on 93 super unleaded gasblock. I know it's 100 hp shy of what you want to do but thought I'd throw it out on the table.

To make 600 hp from a 396 I'd guess in addition you'd need to add a 100 shot of spray or maybe throw a procharger on it....

godsend
Jan 1st, 07, 8:05 AM
Viggs 408 had 511 if i recall it right.

Fully streetable... And runs good.

68chevelle533
Jan 1st, 07, 10:10 AM
The people who are building 396/402 engines are usally not going "all out" so they don't get built with the best parts and the power levels they attain reflect this. While IMO a 600hp 396 can be built, a 496 at the same power level would be more streetable. Remember hp and torque are related so you would have to spin a 396 harder to get the same hp as a larger motor (probably 7000+ at this power level).

GRN69CHV
Jan 1st, 07, 10:34 AM
First. get HP #'s out of your head and instead dial in RPM range and desired characteristics. If you have a 396, then go ahead and build it. Use the stock crank (preferably forged if you want to really spin it). Use stock/rebuilt truck rods with ARP bolts - or go aftermarket - your choice. Studded 2 bolt or 4 bolt make no difference as long as the crank assembly is balanced and th tolerances are correct. Oval port heads with stock valve sizes are also fine-just a good port cleanup and preferably use high flow undercut stem valves. A 396 motor comes alive with the cam selection. Only way to do it is a solid roller. Depending on your trans/rear (mild 396 motors needa 3.73, hot 396 motors need a 4.1-4.3 or more if you have the guts. These are based on 27-28" tires). Cam specs in the general range of 240 @ .060, lift in the .620-.650 range. Ideal LSA/ICL for the cam is 110LSA/104ICL. All 3.76" stroke motors like an advanced cam. Pick the cam you want, then pick the pistons to get the correct CR. Run small tube headers (1.75" primary x 3" collector). Dual plane intake - ie. Performer RPM. This will be a 7000 RPM motor.

Yes a 454 or 496 will spank it out of the hole if installed in a car with a suspension to harness the out of the hole torque, but there really is no thrill like driving a 7000 RPM big block with big gears down the road. Will this motor be streetable, yes. Does your definition of streetable mean aggressive? Probably, otherwise you would not have asked about 600HP. If you are daring, go bigger on the cam and up the CR.

Harold Sutton
Jan 1st, 07, 11:14 AM
I have a good friend that use to run a high powered closed chambered 408" motor in his '69 Camaro race car but i don't think you'd want to drive it around. In order to get the times he needed it had to be twisted about 7800 RPM. The motor was only a tenth slower than his all out 438" bigger motor though. It Dynoed at 658 H.P. @ 7200 RPM but wasn't quite what i'd call something you'd make a daily driver. Ran 10.12 @ 131 MPH in a 3540 lb. car with the small 780 carb. The 427 based engine with the same heads only ran about half a tenth quicker on the same strip. With some good heads you should be able to get 550 H.P. and still be streetable.

wildman926
Jan 1st, 07, 11:42 AM
GRN69CHVL - Excellent post.

star393
Jan 1st, 07, 12:37 PM
Year 1975 454 3100# car 4 speed 9.89 ET best 138 mph or 144 mph at US 30 installed a 396 same car 10.25.1 cast pistons cut for valve clearance same heads cam and intake set up, 11.02 ET unsure about mph drove very aggressive 8500 plus both motors, All closed Chambered motors.

1968 hot rod
Jan 1st, 07, 4:22 PM
peak hp was 470 avg is lower 402+.030
10.1cr ret port heads,cast crank,3/8 rods,trw forged piston,single plane intake with a 750dp and small Engle roller cam.
3800lb chevelle runs on pump gas turns 11 teens @ 118mph w/ race gas and a 200hp no2 shot it made 675hp and runs 10.0's @134mph

GRN69CHV
Jan 1st, 07, 4:36 PM
Wildman, SSJA (396 motor in a '67 Chevelle) in the 70's. I speak from experience.

PS - Chevelle will be finish assembled soon, will be looking for a Camaro or Nova for the 402 .030 motor - complete with a 248/248 .625/.625 110LSA solid roller that I have. Really leaning old school here. 3800-4000 stall converter and 4.10-4.56 gears.

mr 4 speed
Jan 1st, 07, 4:43 PM
I had a stock 325 HP 396 that ran a best of a 12.45 @107 MPH
only changes where the following:

240/246 @.050 Crower solid f/t cam
.517/.530 114 LSA
Scorpion roller rockers
1 3/4" Dynomax coated headers
3" exhaust w/Dynomax super turbos w/turndowns
RPM intake
BG 850 double pumper
GM HEI w/curve kit
Holley blue pump
10" Select convertor (aprrox 3500-3800 stall)
4.10 gears
Motor was in a 67 Chevelle
shift point was 6,000 rpms

BB_Mike
Jan 1st, 07, 4:57 PM
I"ve only heard of numbers around the 500HP (crank). Never seen one though. I claim 450HP for my 414cid motor, but it has never been on a dyno.

If you want 600, then spray our 396 until it blows up. After that you can build a 468" bottom end for it. ;)

godsend
Jan 1st, 07, 5:03 PM
A 396 with a forged crank/rod/piston will take 300-400 shots easy.

Exxelent streetrace engine with low initial torque and extra addons ;)

BB_Mike
Jan 1st, 07, 5:09 PM
A 396 with a forged crank/rod/piston will take 300-400 shots easy.

Exxelent streetrace engine with low initial torque and extra addons ;)


I need you to sponsor my race team!

With a filled block, nice connecting rods, $3,000 crankshaft, and ballancing, not to mention frequent rebuilds, you can spray anything to produce any amount of power. Most people would simply recomend a different route. :)

godsend
Jan 2nd, 07, 2:35 AM
Not that fancy. You can use the old steel crank. (if its checked clear) Some decent rods...

It will live long, dont be afraid, may the force be with you ,)

68bye
Jan 2nd, 07, 3:07 AM
It was questions like this that I came up with saying in my signiture. The question I used to get more often than anything else.."How much would it cost to 'soup up' my engine" Man, I hated that. You can see how many answers there are just by this thread.

junglejimmie
Jan 2nd, 07, 11:42 AM
I run a 396 and while it does'nt make 600hp N/A..... It does well enough to be streeable and run quicker than most of the 454's on this site :thumbsup:

Harold Sutton
Jan 2nd, 07, 11:46 AM
Not that fancy. You can use the old steel crank. (if its checked clear) Some decent rods...

It will live long, dont be afraid, may the force be with you ,) Anything over 275 and you'll torch the head gaskets where the missing head bolts are. Been there, done that.

godsend
Jan 2nd, 07, 4:06 PM
That has to be a cylinder pressure issue. Used copper and O-rings btw.

Harold Sutton
Jan 3rd, 07, 3:03 AM
That has to be a cylinder pressure issue. Used copper and O-rings btw. My son had 275 on his street driven truck and burned between cylinders and finally blew the gaskets into the lifter valley too. The 481" motor used "O" rings and copper head gaskets but always had slight "water in the oil" problems with them.

godsend
Jan 3rd, 07, 3:43 AM
Oil in water used to occur on my dyno runs. But retorque them warm. And use radiator sealer. Then it stops.

I also had Arp studs instead of regular bolts.

junglejimmie
Jan 3rd, 07, 8:16 AM
Ya'll have gotten away from the topic......

With all this talk about making power, I'm interested in who's 396 is "King of the Hill"

godsend
Jan 3rd, 07, 11:32 AM
Harold Sutton says this "It Dynoed at 658 H.P. @ 7200 RPM"

I think that one... after that Viggs´s 511 dyno run is number 2 here.

junglejimmie
Jan 3rd, 07, 3:05 PM
That's all well and good but what are they doing in the cars their in?

Street cars with interiors or Gutted racecars....post some et & mph numbers

godsend
Jan 3rd, 07, 3:46 PM
Viggs car ran 11.71/186km/h Full steel/glass/interior. Its a 68 nova.

I think hell dig deeper when changing converter.

GOSFAST
Jan 3rd, 07, 5:07 PM
Whats the most power anyone has heard of or seen in a 396 big block? Im shooting for atleast 600, but would like more. I know i could go with a 454 or bigger for more power, but you sure dont ever see a high hp 396 very often.

Hi Corbin, this is a copy of a previous post from a 396 pump-gas unit that we did last year. It's since been finished as seen below in the photo. The older post here explains much of the platform.

You can hit the 600 HP number easily with this size unit, but not on "shoe-string" budget! Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

(Quote) "Old School" 504 HP 396” (Pump-Gas) BB
Just finished testing a 396 BB Chev using mostly "old-school" parts and technology. Installed a set of TRW L2242F's (+040), pressed pins, a set of Eagle SIR's to save the customer some bucks, non file-fit S/P (E232K) rings, an "Engle" "flat-tappet" cam (242/254-.576"/.607"-108C/L), with "Corteco" head gaskets, under a set of the G.M. "Winters" (#14011076) 2nd design Aluminum heads (295 CC Int's x 115 chambers) held in place by a set of "Stainless" ARP head bolts, a 10.52:1 C.R. (zero deck), and an old "TM-1" on top. Tested with a 750 Holley and 2.125 pipes. Ending up with a reading of 504 HP @ 6300 RPM and 467 Ft. Lbs. @ 5200 RPM. There was absolutely no porting whatsoever with the exception of a “gasket match” and the removal of the "vanes" in the exhaust ports. This unit is destined for an early "nostaligia" style street-rod. This was the reason the customer basically chose all the components, down to the "Weiand" timing cover with no dowel pins. The cover was cast up some 40 years ago. The "TM-1" will be removed this week and the unit will receive a "Man-a-Fre" intake consisting of (4) 2 brl. Rochesters. We’ve incorporated a "trick-custom" PCV system completely hidden under the bottom, which uses NO vacuum lines at all. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. The cam break-in went smoothly using “moly” on the lobes and Pennzoil 25-50 race oil. The “PCV” system is a novelty idea basically similar to one used on newer Chevrolet fuel-injected units. It incorporates the “orifice” under the intake in the lifter valley and feeds directly into plenum with all the components out of sight. Customer also supplied a "Traco" fully degreed damper. I saw the last one of these in the early '70's. The unit will have the “Crane” rockers removed before delivery and a set of Comp Cams “Pro-Magnums” installed, so everything fits under the “low” valve covers. This was an opportunity for us to see what was possible in 1966 with the exception of the later heads. These would have been all the components used in the 1970 time period. I have to say, “this unit was a fun build”! (End quote)

P.S. If you read that info above and then look at the photo you will see NO external "PCV" system. This unit has what I call a "very high-tech" breather system taken from the 2006 Vette and is entirely contained "inside", hidden,
underneath the intake manifold with ALL the plumbing required, as stated above. Was a "real-neat" deal, possibly the only of it's kind around!!

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7711/jakes396510hpcp0.jpg

1968 hot rod
Jan 3rd, 07, 7:08 PM
peak hp was 470 avg is lower 402+.030
10.1cr ret port heads,cast crank,3/8 rods,trw forged piston,single plane intake with a 750dp and small Engle roller cam.

Jungle Jimmie
King of da hill
3800lb chevelle runs on pump gas turns 11 teens @ 118mph w/ race gas and a 200hp no2 shot it made 675hp and runs 10.0's @134mph turnin the tires a little
cheap engine to build

junglejimmie
Jan 3rd, 07, 8:10 PM
Hi Corbin, this is a copy of a previous post from a 396 pump-gas unit that we did last year. It's since been finished as seen below in the photo. The older post here explains much of the platform.

You can hit the 600 HP number easily with this size unit, but not on "shoe-string" budget! Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

(Quote) "Old School" 504 HP 396” (Pump-Gas) BB
Just finished testing a 396 BB Chev using mostly "old-school" parts and technology. Installed a set of TRW L2242F's (+040), pressed pins, a set of Eagle SIR's to save the customer some bucks, non file-fit S/P (E232K) rings, an "Engle" "flat-tappet" cam (242/254-.576"/.607"-108C/L), with "Corteco" head gaskets, under a set of the G.M. "Winters" (#14011076) 2nd design Aluminum heads (295 CC Int's x 115 chambers) held in place by a set of "Stainless" ARP head bolts, a 10.52:1 C.R. (zero deck), and an old "TM-1" on top. Tested with a 750 Holley and 2.125 pipes. Ending up with a reading of 504 HP @ 6300 RPM and 467 Ft. Lbs. @ 5200 RPM. There was absolutely no porting whatsoever with the exception of a “gasket match” and the removal of the "vanes" in the exhaust ports. This unit is destined for an early "nostaligia" style street-rod. This was the reason the customer basically chose all the components, down to the "Weiand" timing cover with no dowel pins. The cover was cast up some 40 years ago. The "TM-1" will be removed this week and the unit will receive a "Man-a-Fre" intake consisting of (4) 2 brl. Rochesters. We’ve incorporated a "trick-custom" PCV system completely hidden under the bottom, which uses NO vacuum lines at all. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. The cam break-in went smoothly using “moly” on the lobes and Pennzoil 25-50 race oil. The “PCV” system is a novelty idea basically similar to one used on newer Chevrolet fuel-injected units. It incorporates the “orifice” under the intake in the lifter valley and feeds directly into plenum with all the components out of sight. Customer also supplied a "Traco" fully degreed damper. I saw the last one of these in the early '70's. The unit will have the “Crane” rockers removed before delivery and a set of Comp Cams “Pro-Magnums” installed, so everything fits under the “low” valve covers. This was an opportunity for us to see what was possible in 1966 with the exception of the later heads. These would have been all the components used in the 1970 time period. I have to say, “this unit was a fun build”! (End quote)

P.S. If you read that info above and then look at the photo you will see NO external "PCV" system. This unit has what I call a "very high-tech" breather system taken from the 2006 Vette and is entirely contained "inside", hidden,
underneath the intake manifold with ALL the plumbing required, as stated above. Was a "real-neat" deal, possibly the only of it's kind around!!



This is really cool because this engine is almost identical to mine. The cam is almost the same, mine is slightly larger .605/.609 and I use steel 063 head with mild porting 2.19/1.88 valves and a better Performer RPM intake.

The times in my signature are with ZERO tuning on the motor I know it has more in it.

GOSFAST
Jan 3rd, 07, 8:41 PM
This is really cool because this engine is almost identical to mine. The cam is almost the same, mine is slightly larger .605/.609 and I use steel 063 head with mild porting 2.19/1.88 valves and a better Performer RPM intake.

The times in my signature are with ZERO tuning on the motor I know it has more in it.

Hi Jimmie, maybe it's all in the 36 year old Engle cam, huh? Almost all the components in that unit are 30+ years old. (Except the PCV system!)

Who says you need todays "new" grinds WITH some real fancy names?
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Just let me add this here, I have the flow numbers on the heads, "very weak", at best. If the customer had us "chasing" HP with some "serious" head porting (and an up-to-date "HVH"), this would have made the 575 HP number with out "breakin' a sweat". Remember, this one had some "off-the-shelf" rings along with the "ancient" Engle!!!!!!

junglejimmie
Jan 4th, 07, 8:26 AM
Hi Jimmie, maybe it's all in the 36 year old Engle cam, huh? Almost all the components in that unit are 30+ years old. (Except the PCV system!)

Who says you need todays "new" grinds WITH some real fancy names?
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Just let me add this here, I have the flow numbers on the heads, "very weak", at best. If the customer had us "chasing" HP with some "serious" head porting (and an up-to-date "HVH"), this would have made the 575 HP number with out "breakin' a sweat". Remember, this one had some "off-the-shelf" rings along with the "ancient" Engle!!!!!!

I used a Lunati cam myself, but otherwise this engine and mine are pretty much the same. I want to really "tune" on it if I find the time....

GRN69CHV
Jan 4th, 07, 9:46 AM
I knew the other JungleJim back in the day. He lived only a couple of miles from my house. His house is still there - some kind of antique shop there now. The garage (barn) where he kept his cars still stands.

junglejimmie
Jan 4th, 07, 10:56 AM
I knew the other JungleJim back in the day. He lived only a couple of miles from my house. His house is still there - some kind of antique shop there now. The garage (barn) where he kept his cars still stands.

Yea....I've heard that.

He went by "Jungle" Jim Liberman.....

Out of respect, I use "JungleJim" I wanted to change my nic here awhile back but Al said I'd lose my post count so I did'nt. I even registered a new nic "JungleJim" a few years back but never used it....

bracketchev1221
Jan 4th, 07, 11:03 AM
Jim for what it's worth you probably have some left in your 396. My 408 that made 501 only had a .574/.588 Lunati cam #40209. It had 781 casting unported heads and 2.19/1.88 valves also. I used the Performer RPM airgap though. Right now it's gone 11.48 in a 3500 camaro. It was dynoed on 93 but it's raced on 110 just to be safe.

69-CHVL
Jan 4th, 07, 11:08 AM
Jim for what it's worth you probably have some left in your 396. My 408 that made 501 only had a .574/.588 Lunati cam #40209. It had 781 casting unported heads and 2.19/1.88 valves also. I used the Performer RPM airgap though. Right now it's gone 11.48 in a 3500 camaro. It was dynoed on 93 but it's raced on 110 just to be safe.

Impressive...whats the compression, carb, and duration of that cam?
Thanks!

67Super Sport
Jan 4th, 07, 12:01 PM
Here is my 396 combo. Never seen a dyno, but ET's pretty well.

67 Chevelle SS
Race Weight w/ Driver ~ 3600 lbs

Engine
402 BBC
L88 forged crank
TRW L2240NF30 Forged Pistons (9.75:1)
Eagle I-Beam rods
GM iron oval port heads (Casting # 3904390) with Manley valves (2.06 Intake/1.72 Exhaust) Bowl Blending, and 3-angle valve job
Crane Gold roller rockers
Competition Cams Xtreme solid roller cam XR274R(236/242 @.050, .639/.646 lift, 108 LSA)
Crane roller lifters
Stock L88 pushrods
Edelbrock RPM Performer intake
Holley HP750 Double Pumper Carb

Exhaust
Hedman 1.75 in. primary headers with Flowmaster Scavenger collectors. 3 inch pipes with 3 in. H-pipe into 3 in. bullets dumping right before the rear axle housing.

Rear end
12 Bolt with 4.56 gears
Moser 30 spline C-clip eliminator race axles

Trans
TH400 with full reverse manual valve body
ATI 8 in. converter flashes to 5000

Ignition
Stock rebuilt HEI distributer
MSD 6AL box
MSD Blaster coil
Holley plug wires

Performance

Best ET to date @ Piedmont Dragway:

60Ft. -1.50
1/8th Mile -7.09
MPH -96

junglejimmie
Jan 4th, 07, 12:34 PM
Impressive...whats the compression, carb, and duration of that cam?
Thanks!
Which one?



I know I have more...gonna change my axles, etc. and do some other stuff soon.

All the runs I have ever made were on pump gass too!

69-CHVL
Jan 4th, 07, 1:04 PM
I was referring to Ray (bracketchev), but I'll listen to all!

vigg
Jan 4th, 07, 2:28 PM
-68 Nova..3650 lbs.

396" .060 over
Stock forged crank
3/8" (ARP wavelock)stock rods
Forged TRW/Speedpro 10:1
702* stock unported ovalport iron heads with 2.19/1.88
Comp XR 274R mechanical roller (236/242...274/280...lift 639/646)
Comp 929 springs
Comp vertical bar lifters
Comp Hitech 3/8" pushrods
Edelbrock Peformer RPM (matchported)
Holley 3310 750 vac
Hooker 2"..3.5"
HEI with Accel super coil
Meziere electric waterpump
ARP everywhere.

Dyno said..511hp@5650 rpm...530 ftlbs@4200 rpm
400+ ftlbs @ 3000 rpm

http://forum.musclecars.nu/attachment.php?attachmentid=401&d=1161862382

TH 350
Hughes GM 30 (slipps around 17% at the big end...converterchange finally coming up this winter)

Monoleafs
12b/3.90 gear
Eaton Posi
Slappers
Koni SPA1 (f/r)

M/T ET-Drags 28.9.15"
1.66 60ft
7.42@92
11.69@115



My Nova is fully street legal and inspected..all steel,full interior,front fenderwells with rubbersheets,windshield wipers and washers,heaterbox,speakers and so on.

Acually still runs great! :)...(knock,knock)

bracketchev1221
Jan 4th, 07, 5:05 PM
Vince it's an old Lunati cam I believe the numbers are 248/259 @.050. The cam was rated 3000-6800 and is a solid flat tappet. The carb was an 800 holley dp that I had and the compression is supposed to be about 10.5-1. It was a 2287 closed chamber piston with a 781 casting open chamber head. The motor was run to 7000 on the dyno and peaked at about 6800 if I remember right. It has 7/16 rods on a cast crank. It worked out pretty good because I built the heads with parts off of my old 427.

corbinwelter
Jan 7th, 07, 10:34 PM
alright, i think you guys have convinced me to keep the 396. I already have some stuff for it, let me know what u think

396 2 bolt block
063 closed chamber heads, 101 ccs, will be ported and slightly bigger valves, and 929 springs
comp cam magnum solid flat 306s cam, Duration @ .050'' Lift: 260° Intake / 260° Exhaust
Valve Lift : .629'' Intake / .629'' Exhaust
crane gold roller rockers
victor jr. intake, will be slightly ported and matched
gear drive
850 dp holley
moroso deep sump pan


now need to buy

eagle forged crank
eagle h beam rods
trw L2242 pistons
some where around 11:1 - 12:1 compression
rings, dont know which ones yet
head gaskets, dont know yet
4.30 gears
bigger axles for my 12 bolt, and spool
possibly back half, or stick with 10 inch tire

heck with all this, might as well shoot some nitrous and go for higher numbers

Harold Sutton
Jan 8th, 07, 3:06 AM
Yea....I've heard that.

He went by "Jungle" Jim Liberman.....

Out of respect, I use "JungleJim" I wanted to change my nic here awhile back but Al said I'd lose my post count so I did'nt. I even registered a new nic "JungleJim" a few years back but never used it.... A racer here used a little open chamber with cast iron heads that was never dynoed but it ran 10.90 @ 124+ MPH in a vette that weighed about 3200-3300 lbs. with him aboard. It had 5.13 gears, four speed and a chevy ZL-1 cam. Ran pretty good for 35 years ago.

GRN69CHV
Jan 8th, 07, 6:57 AM
Get some main studs for the 2-bolt block and then have it line honed (about 150.00 operation if I remember right). You may even consider the 4-bolt conversion that uses the stock 2-bolt caps. With a 260@.050 cam, you will want to step up that rear to about 4.56 - 4.88 depending on tire size, that's a lot of cam for a 500" motor, let alone a 400" motor.

SWHEATON
Jan 8th, 07, 7:15 AM
Corbinwelter,is this going to be an all out race car not registered for street or will this car see some street duty for shows or crusing?

If yes on some street duty then why cam your 396 to the moon with this cam (comp cam magnum solid flat 306s cam, Duration @ .050'' Lift: 260° Intake / 260° Exhaust Valve Lift : .629'' Intake / .629'' Exhaust ) thats very big in a 396 & basically not streetable when you have seen Gary/NY hit 504hp with this cam ("Engle" "flat-tappet" cam (242/254-.576"/.607"-108C/L) and somebody else hit 511hp with this cam (Comp XR 274R mechanical roller 236/242...274/280...lift 639/646)in 396's that were definately still steetable cams in a 396,hot yes but still streetable with these cams IF dialed in correctly timing/carb calibration wise along with a shot of NOS that will get you to the 600+hp mark your looking for?

I can understand maybe you would need a little extra dur (esp on ex) if you want to spray it for xtra HP so maybe an additional 6/6 deg or so dur @.05 to the 250ish deg dur @.05 which is still a very big cam for a 396 but i consider a 260 deg dur @.05 cam as being HUGE in a 396,race only with quality AFTERMARKET HIGH FLOW HEADS or heavily worked 840 sq ports? This is esp ture since your using 063 heads,yes they flow well for a fairly hot street 396 and put down good hp #'s for what they are but i think the 260 deg @.05 cam could very well be too large for the 063 heads IMHO.

Go with the cam (or one very close) to what Gary used,then spray it to get you in the 600 +hp range your looking for and be happy with a car you could actually drive on the street if you wanted that would be very quick esp for a 396 that would kill most all the street RICERS/Stangs all day long?. I would only use the 260 deg @.05 cam if the car is RACE ONLY with no street duty along with good high flow aftermarket heads or modified 840 sq ports to make better use of a very hot cam that will have that baby rat spinning 7,500-8,000+ rpms.

Scott

corbinwelter
Jan 8th, 07, 10:25 AM
well being i dont have a title for the car, it is just gonna be a strip car beauty queen, maybe a few runs around the neighborhood. What If i was to get the 063 heads totally worked or what kind of aftermarket heads are we talking about? some 350cc runners? also i will need a small cc closed chamber head, which is hard to find

junglejimmie
Jan 8th, 07, 10:37 AM
I use the 063 heads with 2.19/188 valves and mild porting. Cam is Lunati grind .605/.609 quite streetable....

Times below are with no tuning and on pump gas....

CDN SS
Jan 8th, 07, 10:49 AM
alright, i think you guys have convinced me to keep the 396. I already have some stuff for it, let me know what u think

396 2 bolt block
063 closed chamber heads, 101 ccs, will be ported and slightly bigger valves, and 929 springs
comp cam magnum solid flat 306s cam, Duration @ .050'' Lift: 260° Intake / 260° Exhaust
Valve Lift : .629'' Intake / .629'' Exhaust
crane gold roller rockers
victor jr. intake, will be slightly ported and matched
gear drive
850 dp holley
moroso deep sump pan


now need to buy

eagle forged crank
eagle h beam rods
trw L2242 pistons
some where around 11:1 - 12:1 compression
rings, dont know which ones yet
head gaskets, dont know yet
4.30 gears
bigger axles for my 12 bolt, and spool
possibly back half, or stick with 10 inch tire

heck with all this, might as well shoot some nitrous and go for higher numbers

Thats alot of cam for a 396 but it you truly going with 11.1 cr or higher and race only and in light car ..... if not then consider a smaller cam esp with the 063 heads ...... I question the gear drive !!! and possibly the victor jr intake in a chevelle you need some torque to get that big car going ......FWIW I have a .060 427 10.5 cr with a 250/260 solid roller lots of cam needs at least a 4.30 gear 456 optimum you should think at least 456 withthat cam or even 488 and I made best power with dual plane intake and good carb FWIW

corbinwelter
Jan 8th, 07, 1:55 PM
gear drive is just for fun, i know it will be noisey. I think the 396 will have enough torque as it is on the lower end, and the intake can help on the top end right? I also do plan on shaving some weight off, but want to keep it stock appearing as possible.

CDN SS
Jan 8th, 07, 2:51 PM
gear drive is just for fun, i know it will be noisey. I think the 396 will have enough torque as it is on the lower end, and the intake can help on the top end right? I also do plan on shaving some weight off, but want to keep it stock appearing as possible.


I would suggest you do a search on here and or get more opinions on using a gear drive in this application .....not all gear drives are equal and IMO very hard on valvetrain espcially in a BBC where valve train is heavy to begin with ..the gear drive noise gets very old fast, that fad has long gone away FWIW

corbinwelter
Jan 8th, 07, 3:32 PM
I could be wrong, but as much as this motor will be run just on the strip, i dont think it will harm anything, but i could see over years of use. Back to head choice, what size heads should i be looking for? The brodix RR sound good, but will they support 600+ hp

CDN SS
Jan 8th, 07, 4:02 PM
The brodix RR sound good, but will they support 600+ hp
__________________
With properly matched cam to head and CNC option ........absolutely!! , been done here alot

corbinwelter
Jan 8th, 07, 10:37 PM
ha, kinda missed ur signature, Could they also be worked a little bit more from factory to get some more power out of them?

corbinwelter
Jan 8th, 07, 11:37 PM
i think i have decided on the brodix STS BB-1 cnc ported heads, they seem to fit in perfect with my combo, and brodix will mill them for small chamber

Cubic Inch Compression Camshaft RPM Application
STS BB-1 427-502 12.0 Minimum Flat Tappet/Roller 3500-7000 Pro Street/
Drag Race


STS BB-1(CNC Ported)
Valve Size 0.200 0.300 0.400 0.500 0.600 0.700 0.800
2.250 Intake 168 252 314 348 368 375 379
1.880 Exhaust 130 166 200 235 264 283 295

Intake Port Chamber Volume Valve Sizes Intake/Exhaust Exhaust
Pattern Valve
Centerline Intake Manifold
STS BB-1 305 cc 119 cc 2.250/1.880 Standard Standard HV 2000/
HV 2001

junglejimmie
Jan 9th, 07, 6:38 AM
i think i have decided on the brodix STS BB-1 cnc ported heads, they seem to fit in perfect with my combo, and brodix will mill them for small chamber

Cubic Inch Compression Camshaft RPM Application
STS BB-1 427-502 12.0 Minimum Flat Tappet/Roller 3500-7000 Pro Street/
Drag Race


STS BB-1(CNC Ported)
Valve Size 0.200 0.300 0.400 0.500 0.600 0.700 0.800
2.250 Intake 168 252 314 348 368 375 379
1.880 Exhaust 130 166 200 235 264 283 295

Intake Port Chamber Volume Valve Sizes Intake/Exhaust Exhaust
Pattern Valve
Centerline Intake Manifold
STS BB-1 305 cc 119 cc 2.250/1.880 Standard Standard HV 2000/
HV 2001
Why not run a good factory steel head on that 396 and save some $$ so you can build a larger cube engine later that will benefit more from those Aluminum heads?

GRN69CHV
Jan 9th, 07, 7:04 AM
Have to agree. I thought this was intended to be a high ouput 396 rebuild motor. If $$$ are in the budget and max HP is the quest, the first thing I would do is a bigger motor. But if I were to truly build ahigh output 396 motor, there is only one way to do it. Throw in big pistons for big compression, then go big cam. That 260@.050 cam is very big for a 396 motor, but 12.5/1 CR will make it work real well. Don't have the part numbers but a .580 dome piston is an of the shelf item for a 396 motor. If you insist on the alum heads, at least build the motor with some real compression. Compression is tough to deal with at times, but it does help make up for lack of displacement.

corbinwelter
Jan 9th, 07, 8:25 AM
I had planing some large dome heads, but then others have told me not to, but i will be using the 31cc dome pistons, the .580 are a 50cc which are way to big i was told. As i said, this is a stricly drag car, i dont need an all out 500ci motor for braket races. The only thing i see stoping this motor from more power is a set of alum heads.

GRN69CHV
Jan 9th, 07, 8:54 AM
I had planing some large dome heads, but then others have told me not to, but i will be using the 31cc dome pistons, the .580 are a 50cc which are way to big i was told. As i said, this is a stricly drag car, i dont need an all out 500ci motor for braket races. The only thing i see stoping this motor from more power is a set of alum heads.

Not true on the pistons. If this is a bracket motor only, you want all the compression you can get. Talking closed chamber heads here. The 31CC piston will get you 11.44/1CR with a 100CC head and "0" deck. The cam you want to use will want 12.5/1 or more. "Brackets" is a broad category. A 12.5/1 factory iron head (ported but with stock valve sizes), c/w large cam in a properly set up chassisis is a low 11 second car. All 3.76" stroke motors need as much compression built in as you can get. The difference in the stroke between a 396,402,427 and a 454 is huge in terms of efficiency when running big cams - and even big heads. Keeping everything the same, a 454 motor will have the piston .24 further down in the cylinder when the intake valve closes. A 496 motor will have it just short of 1/2" further down. You need to design in static compression from the beginning or you end up with a dog - plain and simple. It's not hard to build HP in smaller motors, it just takes a different approach.

I can tell you first hand [ and others are sure to back this up ], the difference on paper for every point compression in a 396 or 427 doesn't seem big, but the real world performance is noticeable.

bracketchev1221
Jan 9th, 07, 9:00 AM
I have the speed pro 2287 pistons in my 408 with 781 casting heads. With open chamber heads even these big domes are only 10.5-1. If 600 hp is what you need, you are going to have to get the biggest domes possible to build compression in a small bore motor.

corbinwelter
Jan 9th, 07, 9:06 AM
so your saying i should do the .580 dome pistons and stick with the cast heads or the alum heads i was talking about? Since it is not a street vehicle, i suggested i should do the larger pistons before, to achieve 13:1, but i was told the combustion chamber will be split up in diffrent pockets, which in turn robs hp. You would think the smaller dome, with small cc heads would be better.

bracketchev1221
Jan 9th, 07, 9:11 AM
You are going to need a small chamber just to get compression up. My 427 with 118 cc heads and a .580 piston was only 11.6-1. The 408 with 118 cc heads is worse. You might have to go 108 or less to build any compression.

corbinwelter
Jan 9th, 07, 9:17 AM
i talked to brodix, they can mill the alum heads down the 98cc, so thats not a problem, but i just cant decide, can i get as much power out of my cast heads with bigger valves and port job, they are 101 cc.

SWHEATON
Jan 9th, 07, 9:34 AM
I have 063 heads and they have only been minamally milled 1x and when the machinest cc'd them with me right there to see it was done correctly & the chambers cc'd too 98.5-99cc each.

Scott

junglejimmie
Jan 9th, 07, 1:49 PM
I run the 063's as well....

Look, Alum. heads will save you weight and allow you to run higher compression...O.K.

The point is....if this is a bracket car, what index do you plan to run? You may be able to save $1000-1500 by using some cast heads and achieve your goals. Me, I'd save my money, build a 10:1 454 or 496 with those Alum heads and run mid 10's all day long without ever cracking the hood. Also, you can spray 150-200hp of the N2O for fun on "grudge" nites and run some high 9's

GRN69CHV
Jan 9th, 07, 7:50 PM
junglejimmie hits it right in the nose. How fast do you want to go? We ran a 11.30-11.40 396 based bracket car 30 years ago. It was nothing but a 396-325 motor with a decent solid roller in it. Car was a '67 Chevelle with 5.13's and 13-31 slicks originally put together to run SSJA. Have to remember, title of this thread asked max hp from a 396.

Getting back to the heads. JMHO, the small bore of a 396 motor will not take advantage of the aftermarket heads. While those may be great for a milder bigger motor, if I wre to build a serious race motor, it would be a 500+ incher and then need completely different heads anyway. Seems to me this is our first shot at a bracket racer. KISS (keep it simple).

CR with the 31cc pistons works out as follows: (assumes .030 bore (4.125", "0"deck and .039 head gasket)
100CC chamber = 11.44/1
98CC chamber = 11.71/1
96CC chamber = 12.00/1

Build the 396 motor to a decent power level. Get the chassis ironed out and work you way around the brackets. Once you get the learning curve under hand and figure out how to go fast consistently, then set your sights on another motor from the ground up. At least that's how I would do it.

corbinwelter
Jan 9th, 07, 10:48 PM
i would be happy to just get in the 10s, and stay there. It should be possible with a high output 396 and the right drivetrain. I really dont want to go the easy route everyone else does, and go with a 500+ motor, gotta be diffrent! as i said before, this is a race car, i want this motor to be maxed out. I talked to SE pistons, they will custom make me some open chamber pistons, 54 ccs, and i can get some brodix 119 cc heads, 0 the deck, .020 head gasket, yields me at 12.85:1 compression. Throw a little shot of nitrous on that, should be looking at 600hp +

Harold Sutton
Jan 10th, 07, 2:02 AM
i would be happy to just get in the 10s, and stay there. It should be possible with a high output 396 and the right drivetrain. I really dont want to go the easy route everyone else does, and go with a 500+ motor, gotta be diffrent! as i said before, this is a race car, i want this motor to be maxed out. I talked to SE pistons, they will custom make me some open chamber pistons, 54 ccs, and i can get some brodix 119 cc heads, 0 the deck, .020 head gasket, yields me at 12.85:1 compression. Throw a little shot of nitrous on that, should be looking at 600hp + You won't need that much compression with nitrous. A big dome gets in the way of the flame travel. I have a friend who ran a +.060 396 in his '69 Camaro and it ran low tens with 11-1 compression. Having the heads reworked is the most important thing. As long as the car is relatively light it should run good. A "54 CC" dome is going to be a pain to get proper v-p clearance and probably won't make any more power than one with less compression and a smaller combustion chamber if sprayed. There are a couple of heads on the market with small combustion chambers and oval ports that would be perfect for a 396. Look up the "oval port" Dart or Brodix race heads in the ported versions. The smaller 18 degree Dart might work well if the motor was tailored to high RPM.

sschevellefan
Jan 10th, 07, 2:31 AM
I had a stock 325 HP 396 that ran a best of a 12.45 @107 MPH
only changes where the following:

240/246 @.050 Crower solid f/t cam
.517/.530 114 LSA
Scorpion roller rockers
1 3/4" Dynomax coated headers
3" exhaust w/Dynomax super turbos w/turndowns
RPM intake
BG 850 double pumper
GM HEI w/curve kit
Holley blue pump
10" Select convertor (aprrox 3500-3800 stall)
4.10 gears
Motor was in a 67 Chevelle
shift point was 6,000 rpms


Chris, how did you like this cam in your 396? do you think your UD hyd. cam would be a better cam for the same motor? just wondering.