Hi, I just removed my front winsheild and need some advice or what to use on getting the rest of the glass sealer off. Also, Does any one know what to use for preping the metal/rusted area before using POR-15? thanks. Eric

I used wire wheel on the channels of my 70 when I had the glass pulled.

POR needs bare metal.

I heard POR like ruff surfaces, and I'm using one of those 3M rust strippers but it's not getting it all.

The sealer was pretty much loose on mine, so the wire-wheel removed any dregs I couldn't scrape off.

It took it to bare metal. There is a 3M product to remove rubber sealer from metal.

ok, I'll try that 3M stuff or maybe just buy a wire wheel. thanks, Eric

Por 15 says ruff surface is needed for correct bonding

That's what I thought, but I think alot of people do it anyway and then coat it w/ the chasis paint. Now I'm not sure what to do, leave it a little rusty or grind it down to metal.

I'll tell you what to do, sand blast the area, then epoxy prime it. Forget about POR for something like that area.

I'll see what I can do about a sand blaster, I'll try Harbor Frieght.

I used some wire wheels isntead and that brought it to bare metal nicely.
I still like the POR-15 idea, what would I use to prep the metal, laquer thinner,Metal Ready?, or do I just paint straight on it. thanks, Eric

I think if you use the por 15 procedure you will have rot in the area very soon. Do as Martinsir says and sand bast area and apply a commercial expoxy primer to it, this will make a good sound repair to the area. ;)

I already do have rot and rust holes, and really can't afford welding or to learn fast enough for the winter. So I'm just trying to fill up the holes w/ some Duraglas and top coat it w/ Evercoat, but I want to prevent that rust. What would I do about that? thanks, Eric

Originally posted by MARTINSR:
I'll tell you what to do, sand blast the area, then epoxy prime it. Forget about POR for something like that area. Agree 100% por15 MIGHT have its uses but that would NOT be one of them graemlins/thumbsup.gif

TROY

I've used this stuff. It darn good.
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemType=CATEGORY&itemID=372

I wouldn't put POR15 in that area if you ever want to do something else to it.

Wow, that Eastwood stuff seems pretty good too. Do you think I could apply a filler over this kinda stuff, or would that rust through? How would I go about doing this?, I already have the metal bare and I'm not sure what to do because of people telling me different things.

grind/sand blast/wire wheel/3M disk or whatever down to clean, bare metal. Then Epoxy Prime the area as Brian said. He knows what he's talking about..... ;)

The Eastwoods stuff is good for encapsulating rust. It has it's use in the proper area. But you have removed the rust down to bare metal. I think the epoxy primer is the right solution. However, you stated you had some holes rusted thru. That would mean there is rust on the other side of the metal you are priming that you probably can't get to, like up under the dash. Why not get a spray can of rust encapsulator (yeah, that Eastwoods stuff, or maybe this http://www.rustbullet.com/) and spray or paint that area. THAT is a proper use of these products (and others like em)IMHO. Then you will have killed the rust from both sides. Then fill the holes until you can replace the bad metal in the future.

I hate to see you go thru all that work and not do a permanent fix I.E weld in a patch, but killing the rust is the highest priority.

Confusion ended?

Originally posted by Herb:
The Eastwoods stuff is good for encapsulating rust. To "encapsulate" = to "cover up" :(

I'm new to the Chevelle forum, but I'm not new to POR 15. In my view, POR 15 is ideal for window channels. Wire wheel the channel and then sand it down to bare metal. Clean it with the purple cleaner or Dawn dish liquid. Then use a phophate rust remover to etch the metal. It's not necessary to remove any well adhered rust. Keep the metal wet for 20 minutes or longer. Then wipe with a clean dry cloth and then a slightly damp cloth. Dry the area with a hair dryer, and then give the area two coats of POR 15 per the instructions. Your rust problems will end forever. If you have holes, you can use the POR epoxy to fill them in after you use the POR 15. When everything is cured, rough the surface just slightly to help your new sealer get a good grip. A couple of years ago, I used the expensive epoxy primer to coat a window channel. One little area got chipped, and now rust is starting there. All my window channels get POR 15 now, and the rust is history.
Andrew Offutt

if you're not gonna do it right (welding in a new patch panel) at least have the decency to do the next most-right thing. strip it and epoxy prime it. don't use filler at all in the pinchweld area either.

Ok, Tell me if this sounds right? (Top of Dash)Grind to bare metal,epoxy primer,filler, then top coat? (Underside of Dash) Remove loose rust, Use "Cover up",then filler, and top coat? Sorry for all the questions, just want to do it right using these AMAZING paints and chemicals :eek:

Here's my two cents:

Earlier this past summer, I stripped a rusty,pited, and yes "holy" roof off of my 70 Chevelle. I used a wire brush and DA sander to take it down to mostly bare, flat steel. After cleaning it, I sprayed a couple of coats of Eastwood's Rust Encapsulator, as per their directions. It remained uncovered for several weeks, but now I have spotted early stages of corrosion leaching thru.
It was only meant to halt the rust until a decision is made (and help arrives) to replace the entire roof with a donor I have- IF needed.
I'm not 100% sold on the product, but perhaps my prep was at fault, since other areas of the roof still look good.
I've used the Master Series Coating Line which was demo'd to me at Carlisle, this past spring.
Ill find some technical info on it and post here, if anyone's interested?
great forum- I have this area to attack as well- Both front and rear.

no filler, no topcoat. just clean to bare metal and epoxy prime. them slap the windshield in.

Originally posted by Andrew Offutt:
All my window channels get POR 15 now, and the rust is history.
Andrew Offutt Please its still there you just covered it up!

Body filler on a glass run/channel is a HUGE NO-NO.

Sorry but Por and the like ARE NOT cure alls, they are bandaids. The ONLY way to fix rust is to remove not slap some overpriced tree sap on it...Eric

My question is if the metal is completely sealed by any coating how does rust continue? I thought rust was caused by moisture and oxygen interacting with bare metal. If this is the case and the coating has good adhesion does it make a difference. Just trying to learn more about the demon rust...

Corrosion can be stopped if completely removed from the additional oxygen needed for more corrosion to take place. A simple example of this is a closed boiler system. In a closed boiler system the corrosion is limited to the amount of oxygen the water contains. No additional water is being added to the system so the system will corrode to the point that all the oxygen is used up then corrode no more. If you had a piece of rusted metal and submerged it in a container of motor oil would the corrosion stop?-yes. POR15 and Rustencapsulator are nothing more than just a very durable product that offers good adhesion on corroded surfaces. If the protection offered by the coating is compromised by environmental breakdown or scratches and chips the corrosion will start again and at a fast rate because it had already started. I've tried POR and have been impressed by it's ability to adhere to rust but IMO it is definately not a cure all. IMO POR works well in areas that are not easily accessed, I would not use it on the exterior of the car. I did use it on the inside of a 32 Ford body to help fight off the surface rust that had taken hold and was to difficult to remove, but then again rustoleum followed by a wax based panel coating would have probably sealed it just as well. Just remember, any time you cover up rust it is still there waiting for it's chance to start again if allowed more oxygen. The best way to repair rust damage will always be to remove the corrosion completely. The durability of the coating chosen to protect the bare metal being covered will always dictate how long the job will last. The most common mistake made when people do rust repair on these old cars is to neglect the interior surfaces of the panels. The factory didn't do a very good job on these old cars either, if you look up inside the interior area of the sail panels, roof, cowl bottom, package tray bottom, etc. you'll usually see there is no primer of paint or very little in these areas. If you do some welding of patches in say an area like around the rear window and don't treat the area's backside the rust will start again and it will be just a matter of time before it breaks out to the exterior of the car. There are many products available for coating the inside of these panels. 3M makes a waxed based product call Rustfighter and Transtar offers a similar if not better one, Cosmoline has worked well for years and leaches into cracks and crevices very well, even driveway sealer, foundation coating, roofing tar all will work to a certain degree but contain solvents that may be questionable in reguards to health. This stuff is common sense, not rocket science. JMO- From the roadsalt capital of the world,

Eric, I'll bet these questions about high tech "tree sap" (lol) drive you NUTS!!! :)
Everyone is always trying to come up with a new gimmick to fight an age-old problem.
But, being new to a restoration procedure, my question is: are the new primers -ie: epoxy primer- better than the product used on the cars in 1970 ??? From everythhing I've read, the answer is "yes". There was no 'epoxy primer" in 1970, right? What is it's claim to fame? Can you describe it in detail? I'm here because I want to learn the "best-way" to do something. let's face it- how many of us want to strip the trim out,remove the windshield,mask and repaint (treat) a reoccurance of a previously treated problem area........
NOT ME!!!!
I want to do this right the first time- yes, I'm tempted to use the spaceage tree-sap, only because it's proported to be the be-all/end-all. Forgive my ignorance, but can you tell me 'why" it's NOT the way to go?
Thanks! (again)

Vette, I'll tell you this, I am not a big "magic potion" product kind of guy. Though, I also have no experience with POR or Rass or the others in particular, it may be a wonderful product. But if it were that great the BIG paint companies like PPG, DuPont, Sherwin Williams and the like would have similar products. The large manufactures like GM and Ford would use them, they don't because they are snake oil, in my opinion. I just feel you need to REMOVE AS MUCH RUST AS POSSIBLE. And I don't like the metal preps like 224. It isn't a bad choice on exterior panels where you can neutralize it COMPLETELY. On an area like those channels the acid can get trapped in the nooks and crannies and NOT get neutralized! This acid WILL let you know it is there LATER. I use an etching primer called "vinyl wash" it is very thin and offers a vinyl coating. Any "wash" style primer will do similar (like PPG's DX1791). It has the acid in the reducer and does the same job as the metal prep, only the acid flashes off and you don't have to worry about it. Then after the vinyl wash, a few coats of epoxy primer. This is the authorized way you do it on late model cars where the glass is an integral part of the unibody structure. I also don't believe in using ANY filler in the channel of ANY kind. There is no reason too, it will never be seen, right? The bottom surface where the butyl tape actually lays needs to be as smooth as possible, that is right. But I avoid using any filler at all costs, even there. I take a little angle grinder with a 3" 50 grit disc on it to cut some of the high spots off the area and leave it more even. NO, don't grind the metal thin, just run the grinder over the area holding it nice and flat a few times. You will not overly thin the metal. What you want to do is let the urethane sealer do the job of sealing the butyl tape IF there is a pit or something that could cause leakage. But I can tell you, that butyl tape WILL fill most low spots. One trick is to be sure it is good and warm. Do this AFTER it has been laid on the window or channel (what ever you choose). If you have that stuff warm before you roll it out, WOW it gets sticky and can be ruined very fast. By the way, when applying the butyl tape, roll it out leaving the paper on it, then after it is laid down and pressed a little to make a good contact, pull the paper up behind you as you roll it out. That way when you get to a corner, you can pull the paper up ahead of you and make the tape go around the corner. With the paper, you can't get it around the corner because the paper doesn't flex.

You can also use a urethane to install the window without butyl tape at all. This is the ONLY way you can install a late model window and maintain the structural integrity of the car.

I have used this procedure on every car I have ever owned,my brothers restoratons, my customers, for 13 years I had my shop this is how it was done. I never had a comeback. My own 65 Skylark,and my brothers 64 Riv NEVER saw a garage the whole time we owned them, 15 years, they sat in the driveway or in the parking lot at work,24 hours a day in the weather. When I recently sold my Skylark on Ebay I could honestly say there was NO rust.

An interesting question, could I have said that if I had put POR over it?

Vette, Ive been coming back and back for 3 years so these questions dont drive me nuts.

Epoxy's claim to fame- great adhesion and sealing abilities. The products of today make the products of yesterday look stupid!!

I have used POR15 on my chevelle, used it on the inner rockers. I used it on floor board as well but later decided to replace the entire floor. That floor with POR slapped on it now sits out behind my barn back home in Iowa, with rust bubbles coming back throu.
Is POR's claim to fame quote "Stops rust permentaly" "Hammer tough"
You know I wanted to believe its the magic cure all like they say.

The Buick 455 in my chevelle is a 70,000 mile wonder. The carb needs rebuilt, it burns oil. Each year I put off its rebuild like it needs. Instead I dump in some motor honey to help lessen the oil burnoff, and have my mechanic friend tweak the carb to get by.
That motor honey and my friend only delay the proper rebuild like it needs. They dont fix the worn out piston rings or rotted carb seals, they just cover up the problem, making me think I can get by another year.

Por and the like are just the same thing. The ONLY cure for rust to to remove it, and in its place put in new metal. Just like that motor honey I use in the Buick and just like POR15 they are both bandaids. They have their place in the world. But just like bandaids they mask the problem not cure it.

Maybe you guys don't know where my rust is? It's on the bottom of the dash meets the window, so even if I did do the epoxy primer and seal the window properly, well it wouldn't be properly because there's holes where the sealer goes on, so it would still leak big time. I agree w/ every ones word about just cutting it out and replacing the metal, but I think $400(including 2 new LOF glass) sounds better then $500-800(each window), especially this time of year. Right now, it's raining outside and my car is covered up with plastic. So I think I have to hurry this up. Can't have my car out for a month. Also, I've done alot of searches on POR and every one seems to like the product alot, I think it's because there like me,NO MONEY,lol, and no welding experience yet. I read that some guy did the same thing as I want to do and it's already going on 3 years for him, no bubbles or nothing. Most of these guys were just talking about preping ALOT and how to do it correctly, and even what temp. to do it in. So I think I'll be fine until I want to restore the car in the future. I only found a couple of pages where people weren't pleased w/ POR, but i think that because they didn't prep right. Also, about the car companies not using this product is because there is no rust to start w/ on the assembly line, and you can't use POR on aftermarket sheetmetal, so I think this includes new metal for the new cars, Also, hopefully by now they came up with an idea to prevent some rust, like using more plastic pieces and fiberglass. I appreciate the help though, thanks a bunch. Eric
Oh and about that rust on the other side, I'm just going to take out the dash and glove box and do some wire wheeling.

Boy, you stay away for a few days and you can sure miss a lot.

My 71 Monte Carlo was epoxy primed before it was painted. That was 5 years ago. Everything is still perfect, so that's a great testimony to expoxy primer and to the skill of my painter. But, window channels lead a tougher life than regular sheetmetal.

Seven years ago I used POR-15 on the battery tray in my 71 Monte. Everyone knows what battery acid will do to any sheetmetal. It was rusted so badly it had rusted through in two places. I first sandblasted it. Then I cleaned it with the purple stuff. Then, I kept it wet for 20 minutes with a phosphate based rust remover. Finally, it got two coats of POR-15 and epoxy over the rust holes (I topcoated the epoxy with POR-15) To this day it's still absolutely perfect even though battery acid has leaded on it and it gets damp everytime I wash the car.

I personally have never heard of any bubbles comning through sheetmetal prepared with POR-15. The rust may have come from an uncoated back side.

Use the POR-15 (per instructions) and your rust is history.

Andrew Offutt

P.S. A short primer on rust. Rust is an inert substance. It's the moisture in and around the unrusted sheetmetal combining with O2 that forms more rust. Putting POR-15 over clean, dry and well-adhered rust is an econimically and totally effective way of eliminating further rust. I've used POR-15 for over 10 years with not one failure of any kind.

One other thing. Don't confuse Eastwood Rust Encapsulator with POR-15. They're different.

So you can apply a epoxy primer then POR? I was talking to the POR tech and they said, you can but it just wouldn't work as good. I don't think I'm going to take that risk for rust to come back. It's kinda hard to say after hearing your story.

Brian and Eric.....
I trust your knowledge and experience guys. Right now, I'm getting more of an education instead of getting WORK done! Guess I should be out in the garage graemlins/beers.gif !!!
It's almost time to get my 70 project into the garage. The body bolt are out, the interior is out, just need to finish 'deplumbing " it, and remove the glass and doors. THEN- I'll be using this knowledge you guys are spreading around.
Thanks again

My mistake if I confused anyone. POR-15 must be applied over propertly prepared bare metal (which includes metal with well adhered rust). The epoxy primer paint is great as a primer coat on ordinary sheet metal prior to painting. Window channels and other areas prone to capturing water should be coated with POR-15. If you have rust holes of any size, you've got a problem, and those people who have advised you to replace the metal are giving you good advice. Use the POR-15 moldable epoxy (comes in a bar) to fill in small holes only. Rust holes that just keep getting bigger the more you clean them out simply have to be fixed with new sheet metal.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

Andrew Offutt

Everybody has ideas that works for them. I needed this lesson, now I'm well armed to take care of rust problems that I have. Thanks you guys you done good. graemlins/beers.gif

Andrew, I read about putting Duraglas over POR is a pretty good idea if you got holes because it's rust proof and water proof as it says on the can.

vetteman_72, I'm not that experience w/ alot of body work but all I know is I just want to do all the work myself on my car to learn and save money. I got all my knowledge about POR-15 from looking it up on the searches. I would do that too instead of just reading it from one topic, it depends on what part of the body your working/repairing on. I'll see yall, Eric

I've used the Duraglas in areas that were covered by trim. Duraglas with POR-15 is waterproof and will end the rust in that spot, but it's not strong. I only use it when something else is covering it. And, you're limited to small areas, eg, the size of a nickel or smaller.

My rule is, if the rust hole is smaller than a nickel, I can fix it with POR-15 and epoxy filler (or Duraglas in some cases). Anything bigger than that and you need new metal.

And, when I speak of a nickel sized hole, I'm referring to a hole cleaned out to good metal.

Andrew Offutt