Been looking into getting my car painted. It currently has bc/cc over the original paint. The paint looks thick and needs to be removed before it can be repainted. One of the body shops said they can remove the bc/cc down to the original paint and then scuff the original paint to use as a solid base for a new coat of bc/cc. They also said absolutely don't remove the original primer. Said doing it this way would save me a bunch of money and produce better, more durable results. The quote was $4000.

The color will be original metalic blue, same as previous paint jobs were.

Any comments on this?

The body shop is very right and very wrong, it depends on the car. I would have to say that this time, they are probably right. I say this only because they can see the car, we can't.
Striping cars is WAY, WAY over done. It is the biggest misconception in autobody and paint there is. Not EVERY car needs to be stripped. If you have a solid paint job that is simply too thick, sure you can sand it down to an acceptable amount and prime or seal and shoot. The factory applied a much better primer than you can at home. This really depends on the year and make of car too. But for a number of decades the factory has been using a zinc rich primer called "e" coat and is far superior to anything you can spray on in the shop.

Again, it depends on your car (is it "just a car" or is it a one of four Z16 '65 big blocks made"?) It depends on you wallet, it depends on how much paint and in what condition it is in on the car, it depends on what the final quality of paint you are after is, it really has to he weighed out what to do.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Thanks for the reply MARTINSR.
The car is a very nice all original (except the paint)65K miles 68 ElCamino Custom.
Small bubbles appearing at the lower fenders and at the rear wheel well behind the wheel only on the passengers side.
Not looking for a show car finish but one that is professional, lasting, and at least as good quality as was on it originally.
Painting and the techniques used are all a mistery to me, so I just wanted to get some thoughts from some of the guys who know before committing.

I don't know much about about body/paint, but I've read that GM's original primer (reddish stuff) has very good anti-corrosion characteristics, and if the car's in decent shape it's best to leave it there.

well, you got your answer from an expert in this subject (MARTINSR) so Im just echoing what he said. I worked/owned a body shop for a number of years and if at all possible we NEVER took a car down to metal if we didnt have to. you just couldnt/cant beat the factory primer.

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Michael
T.C. member # 758
ACES member # 4292

69 malibu convertible
86 k5 blazer 4X4
01 gmc sierra

It sounds to me like this shop doesn't want to get involved in doing your project the right way. Telling you that not stripping the car will produce better,more durable results is insane. I would run away as fast as possible. A 34 year old laquer,factory paint job is by no means a solid base. And an etch primer followed with a urethane applied at home is far superior to anything the factory used in 1968. No reputable paint manufacturer recomends putting their products over laquer.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorports

Just to add one more opinion...Nope, never strip unless absolutely necessary. But what the heck do I know. I only started painting cars in 1965. I've used every type of paint on the market and most brands. I've only painted a few hundred cars and supervised the painting of thousands.

Oh yeah, did I tell you to not strip unless absolutely necessary?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GVMLS6:
No reputable paint manufacturer recomends putting their products over laquer.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorports <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was wondering when someone was going to say that. Isn't it false economy to spray a urethane primer/surfacer over a "factory- 1965-1972?(since thats the years everybody kind of agrees on)" laquer corrosion primer, only to have it peel and flake leading you to have to strip it anyway? I'm with Gordon- strip it down if youre going to use the new materials- its not worth having an incompatiblity if something doesnt "gel"- BUT by all means MartinSr or Gordon, correct me if I'm wrong!

ok, good that this came up. i have a 68 camaro. There was a little surface rust on the new quaters (new in `89) so i decided to DA them. Well i like the way it looked and had some extra time so i began to continue and DA the door to bare metal. I thought that this would give a better looking paint job and make body work easier. Did i make a mistake? should i finish DAing the whole car now since i already started?

NHRA1877, it's not a "mistake" to strip a car to bare metal. It's simply a labor intensive operation that isn't necessary as long as the existing paint will provide a good base.

All others...I have used all types of enamels, acrylic enamels, urethanes, acrylic urethanes and polyurethanes over original lacquer finishes with no problems. I have a 72 Monte Carlo that I painted in 1986 with some then new acrylic urethane bc/cc made by Sherwin Williams. I redid the car in March of 2000 primarily because of minor rust bubbles around the edge of the vinyl top.

I have encountered some lifting/wrinkling of old lacquer and enamel finishes when using etch primers or fill primers containing etch. I've also encountered it when trying to short-cut and spray wet-coat urethanes over old lacquer without using a primer sealer of some type...such as doing door jambs, underhood, etc.

As long as the proper materials are used according to their p-sheets, it is NOT necessary or even recommended to strip to bare metal if the original paint can be featheredged to a solid base.

so should i continue stripping since i already started? i mean i have the time so i don`t mind the time, in fact i find it kinda fun.

Okay this begs the question, will the modern bc/cc paints shoot over the top of the factory finish if you properly sand it first? (Not going down to metal, just wetsanding.)

Randy, I'd guess, and I emphasize guess, no. You'd probably need a primer/sealer that would stick to the old paint as well as provide a suitable base for the new paint.

I believe putting new paint over a different type of old paint without doing so is asking for an unfavorable chemical reaction.

That info should be on the can of paint somewhere.

glenn1018, you are correct. Under the circumstances Randy mentioned, I would strongly recommend a non-sanding sealer. It would be foolish to not do so as extra insurance.

The reason I stripped my car was old body work and unseen rust.
You cant tell whats under the existing paint untill you see the metal.
If you want to know what you have then remove it all. I found thing I would never thought would be there.
T.C.

Ok, Gordon and anyone else that feels EVERY CAR MUST be striped, I have a question. When a car comes in with a dent on the fender, do you strip the paint off the fender and etch prime then urethane prime then panel match the color and then panel paint it?

I would hope you would use the standard of the industry, autorized by EVERY paint manufacture and simply blend the color out and clear the whole panel.

If it is "good enough" to paint over existing paint and primer then, why isn't it "good enough" to do it with a repaint?

There are times when it is not only good enough but desireable to do so. I have said it a million times if I have said it once, it is WAY, WAY over done. There are people who do this for a hobby that would be WAY, WAY, WAY overwhelmed to stand there looking at a bare metal car in their garage! There are many, MANY cars that end up being sold with a coat of rust on them or junked out because someone (not volunteering to do it I might add) told them it HAD to be stripped.

In this particular case where 68Elcamino is having it done by a shop we are "only" talking money, but most guys who get this in their head are home hobbyest. These guys barely have the time in between making a living at their "normal" job, taking care of the wife, kids, mowing the lawn, in-laws (ARRRRG) and life in general, stripping the car could END their wonderful hobby in one pour of the Jasco.

I am fight bitterely on this subject because of these guys. To hell with stripping the car that is just going to be a nice driver for some newbe "restorer". To hell with stripping the car that simply does not "deserve" it. For goodness sakes sand and paint the darn thing and HAVE SOME FUN driving an older classic car.

OK......I'm done.

FYI "Panel painting" is painting the complete panel up to the edge without a blend for those not familiar with the term.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Remember, we are all standing around a shop BSing, don't get your pantys in a bunch. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

I think there is one part of the decision maybe not mentioned here (or I missed it).

I would have no problem painting a car without stripping assuming it was the original paint your working on top of.

IF the car has been repainted once after the factory, I would feel it be best to strip the car to the factory layer at a minimum. I would have a hard time trusting putting good paint on top of a base that I didn't know the quality of or the prep work underneath it.

Also, one thing missed in this thread is total paint thickness. The thicker the material on top of the base metal, the easier it is to chip or damage, especially in door edges, etc. With todays high build primers, the mil thickness seems to be quite thick as it is, not counting your laying a new paint job on top of countless layers of old paint/primer/sealer.

Paint/body work is expensive...no doubt about it. It's very labor intensive which is a great deal of the cost you pay for a complete job. If you want a nice final product that will last a long time and the car has been repainted after the factory job, I would think it to be best to strip the car down...at least to the factory paint, if not to bare metal. Notice I didn't say all cars should be stripped completely. That decision needs to be made on a case-by-case basis. I myself would like to know what is under the previous coats of paint/primer...I've seen a ton of cars that looked decent at the start, but found some real horrible body/repair work under the paint. In these cases, it would be a shame/waste to put a good paint job on top of questionable base materials/prep.

Martinsr...if a fellow sells a car due to the fact that he can't complete stripping a car, chances are pretty good he isn't dedicated enough to finish the job even if he simply sanded the surface for a repaint.

There's tons of opinions on such topics and I feel no one persons opinion os right or wrong. Unless each of us see's a specific car in person, none of us can make a fair assesment of what direction should be taken in it's preparation before pain. Even if we all did see the car, we all would have a differing opinion of the best route to take.


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Malibu Motorsports (http://www.malibumotorsports.cjb.net)
414 ci bbc, 3500 lbs
10.66 @ 125 1/4 mile
6.74 @ 101 1/8 mile
1.48 60' on 9" tire

MartinSr- I agree with you to some extent. However, I know you like the Martin Senour 5103 Tint PRime-and have recommended it to me and others for blocking and "filling". If you look on the Tech Sheet, it lists OEM enamels under "substrates", but NOT Lacquer. I assume this is because spraying it over lacquer will cause problems. Weren't the majority of the pre 73 cars painted with Lacquer? If so, why make more work when the paint starts bubbling or whatever due to incompatiblity? If that happens, you have to strip the thing anyway, right? Its a pain in the a** to strip a car, but IMHO, its worth it -if YOU DO IT YOURSELF. Why? Because of the above reasons I listed AND you save a TON of money.

Basically, if the PDS doesnt list Lacquer as a suitable substrate, why risk it? Thats a lot of money going down the toilet if it reacts badly to the new style primers. You cant hardly get lacquer anymore, so thats not an option. It just isnt as good as the new stuff anyway.

Jus87, by way of information, Chevrolet(the one I'm most familiar with) used lacquer on Caprices until the 1991 model year, Cavaliers until around 1990, Camaros until 1990, Corvette through most of the 1982 model year. This represents millions of cars still on the road. The paint manufacturers are not going to let that potential market go away by producing products that require the original paint to be stripped before their products can be applied.

vettefella,

While that may be true, what would Martin Senour say if I used one of their paints over a substrate that IS or IS NOT recommended to spray over, and something goes wrong? Too bad...sorry? I don't have the money for that.

It DOES NOT say on the PDS for the primer I mentioned that you CAN use it over lacquer, and of course it does not say you CAN'T. I have a CHEVY hood to prime where the paint is GOOD but 30 yrs old, and prefer to NOT strip it to teh metal- and I'm going to use that tint prime. What should I do?

It has 2 paint jobs on it, one is the factory, the other a repaint. BUT- I want it to be done "right" the first time. I DO NOT want to have to strip it anyway due to ambivalence in regards to paint manufacturers gearing repairs towards newer cars.

[This message has been edited by JU87 (edited 10-07-2002).]

Martin,you are correct in assuming that I would not strip a complete panel to repair a dent on a late model car. But it should be obvious that there is a huge difference between working with a newer car with catylized primer and clear and working with a base of grossly "sub-standard" laquer. The laquer is "reversible" and in no way is going to be under my quality paintwork. I,ve also stripped late model car panels that were previously repaired by some idiot that
failed to properly catylize his repair. If you don't, your looking for trouble especially in a climate(Chicago)that has huge temp. swings.
As was mentioned earlier, you never know what lies under old paint. Old bondo is known to hide a layer of rust,especially if holes were drilled to remove a dent. Also, on most of the cars I have stripped, there is usually a layer of rust under the original paint that needs to be removed to get good paintwork. Personally, I refuse to restore any car unless it is stripped to bare metal. But that's because I expect my work to last a long time and I don't want to see a car at a show that I did with paint problems(swelling,cracking,die-back,etc.)
I guess there are cars that don't warrant stripping. But if you don't, you can expect paint trouble down the road.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports

JU87, I have a 5103 tech sheet in front of me and it lists OEM Lacquer AND refinish Lacquer as a suitable substrate!

BASF DP90- OEM and "air dry" Lacuqer ok.
PPG K93- OEM and refinish lacquer ok.
Dupont, and some others I have "elude" to lacquer but don't come out and ok it.

You see there are options.




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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GVMLS6:
Personally, I refuse to restore any car unless it is stripped to bare metal. But that's because I expect my work to last a long time and I don't want to see a car at a show that I did with paint problems(swelling,cracking,die-back,etc.)
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Now, THAT I understand. For EVERYONE to do it is another story.


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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MARTINSR:
JU87, I have a 5103 tech sheet in front of me and it lists OEM Lacquer AND refinish Lacquer as a suitable substrate!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MartinSr, THe tech sheet that I am looking at is the new PDF one available at the Martin Senour website..It doesn't say anything about Lacquer at all! Here is the link:
http://www.martinsenour-autopaint.com/pds/martin/mspds.pdf

Look (scroll) a little ways down, and just click the PDF link for the tech sheet. It's on page 4.

It says refinish and OEM ENAMEL- but NOT Lacquer. If it is wrong, they need to fix that on the site- its confusing. Hobbyists have to rely on that stuff for info- personally, I dont have the money to waste if it is not listed and something goes wrong http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif.

The funny thing is I also went to it's sister product 5100/01 and it simply says "OEM finishes" under suitable substrates. Hmmmmmm

Listen, if I were doing my car and really didn't want to strip it, I would sand and shoot or sand and prime with the 5103. It is not the best way to go, it is the "bestest fastest" way to go.

The auto body police are not going to come to your house and arrest you if you don't strip, that is all I am saying.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Ok ...if not every car ..in every situation ....

How about a car with at least 2 other paint jobs on top of the factory paint, rust galore, shoddy body work and aluminum patches applied here and there with rivets.... and don't say junk it http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif

At this moment I am getting it ready for a media blasting by seperating the body from the frame and removing all possible parts. Both will be blasted at the same time. The frame has minor surface rust & dirt is all.

The one place I called wants around $500-$600 and uses something called "slag". But I thought I read where that won't let the primer stick?

Steve

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My opinions are usually worth what they cost you. But once in a while I know what I am talking about. Humor, fun, a few new friends, and good ole knowledge of these classics are why I am here. Your mileage may vary. ACES # 04981

Boy, am I glad no one has strong opinions here! I am working with a body man that does both insurance work and project cars (mine included) -- the newest being 30 years old and going back to cars from the 30's. What I have learned there is a LOT of difference in doing work on a reasonable new car, especially insurance work where insurance companies do not allow for stripping, and working on an older project car.

Among other things there can be numerous coats of paint of dubious qualitiy beween the surface and the metal. Another thing is there also can be even more dubious body work at the bottom of everything -- you "virgin" sheet metal may not be. If you want your jewel to be perfect when done, strip.

Also in no way is the older primer better than the etching primers available today. The only thing is the old red oxide primer is murder to strip. Beter to strip paint down to the red primer, then DA the primer off.

Finally the "bubbling around the bottoms of the fenders" is called rust. It is usually not coming in from the paint side unless nicked, it is usually rust coming through the metal and showing up on the outside as paint bubbles. Time for some patch panels. I can also add that everything I have said above comes not only from the body mans experience, but from my onw experience discovering what laid beneath the nice paint on my '69 elky. Just some paint bubbles around teh bottom of the fenders...

Listen, I am not saying that stripping is not the "best" way to refinish a car. I am simply saying that not ALL cars owned by EVERYONE should be stripped that's all. I don't care if it has four paint jobs on it, if the owner is not ready for a HUGE job, don't strip it. It is not a sin, you are not going to be hit by lightening and burn in hell. Will I strip every car I do, NO way. Will I "want" to strip every car I do, yes.

10secBU, There is a HUGE, HUGE difference between a guy working a few hours on the week ends on his car and the URGENCY of spending a temendous amount of time with a bare metal car. Now, if you were to do what I have done with my last two projects and strip each panel one at time. Do the body work, etch prime BEFORE you go on to the next, you "should" be able to strip the car. But as with most of my posts I really want to get to the guy with no experiance. The guy who looks at this stuff like it is magic (which it sorta is). I want those guys to be able to do their own car. If every one of them thinks their car HAS TO to be stripped, that would be a damn shame.
The decision of whether to strip the paint off or not HAS to be done on a case by case basis. It is not a crime to paint over an existing paint job.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 10-09-2002).]

I think some of us are getting confused by what they think factory tech sheets are saying.When paint companies talk about "original" paintwork, they are NOT talking about 30 year old laquer. They are talking about cars that have catylized 2-part products. The guys writing the tech sheets really don't give a rat's rear end about people doing restoration work. It's really a miniscule part of their business. Ask any of them if they would guarantee their products over laquer and see how fast they run. The products I use(Spies/Hecker) states in their tech sheets for their primers under acceptable substrates: "Original or old paintwork(except reversible substrates,Example:laquer)"
I don't see what anyone thinks they are saving by not stripping to bare metal. It's really a small part of the cost of restoring a car. It's just not worth the risk painting over someone else's crap.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports

Gordon, as I said the PPG and BASF tech sheets said "refinish lacquer" as a suitable substrate.

Please, if you tell me you would charge some poor guy to strip a four door sedan six cylinder three speed 64 Chevelle that his kid is going to take to college.

If you agree this would be a bad plan, then we agree.
If you don't, well..... http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Second point, NO home hobbyist could take advantage of ANY warrantee offered by the manufacture anyway! The warrantee is offered to trained auto paint techs, not home hobbyists.

I do have to say that in my five years as a rep I did give home hobbyists a break and provided them with instruction and free products, even when it was not a product issue. But most reps wouldn't spend one minute on them, let alone give any product or cash compensation.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 10-09-2002).]

MartinSr, You are the man when it comes to paint stuff- BUT I have to agree with Gordon to some degree on this one; at least what he says of the tech sheet + not painting over other peoples crap or 30yr old lacquer part..

I'll agree with you though on manufacturers gearing warranties towards pros and not home restorers. That is precisely the reason to do it "right" and strip it the first time and not risk flushing a bunch of money down the toilet. If you are a home guy and attempt this work, the odds are stacked from the get go. If home restorers pay MSRP for materials, and use precious free time to do the work, why cut corners and make twice the work if something goes wrong because of the old lacquer paint? Who, aside from a few, has an unlimited budget? I do like you do- strip a panel at a time- it works great.

I'd bet there is someone here at TC that loves 4 doors and wagons so much that THEY would (OR have!)strip it to the metal. You or I may not- but we're also not doing the work either http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Are you guys done yet?

Thanks for the good views and discussion to all. It's been enlightening to say the least.

This paint job is going to require a great deal of thought and research to understand why a particular shop wants to paint it with or without stripping the old paint.

Martin, every car I restore will be stripped to bare metal. I don't care if it's a 4-door Chevelle or an LS6 convertible. If that means I won't be doing any 4-door Chevelles any time soon,that's OK. However, I still don't see where it's that much extra work or expense, even for a hobbyist to strip or have his car stripped. The result is more than worth it. Agree with JU87, why take a chance and risk painting over a sub-standard substrate that you know will come back to bite you at some time in the future. It's only a matter of time http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif
Gordon VM

Ok, you have beat me to submission!! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Come on guys, ow, ow, man those punches hurt. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

JU87, read the PPG and BASF tech sheets, they DO ok "30 year old lacquer" I don't know what else to say. On the Chevelle four door, I mean no disrespect toward any car or owner by it. If you will notice the most important point is that it is "just" a car to the owner being that he is sending it off to with his kid to college. Meaning he is not building a show car and really only wants the kid safe and expects a number of dings and scratches to occur (that IS what happens to college bound cars).

Besides, I have always been a HUGE fan of the wagons and fourdoors. They are usually found with little to no butcher work and many time with low miles. I like a nice original car to a more "desirable" model that has been abused.

Gordon, I totally respect your point of view on the matter. You want to protect your reputation, not many care about that now a days. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

We will agree to disagree.

My final closing argument:

If you have the place, resources, time, and money to strip ANY car you feel is worth it to you, than by all means do so. I agree it is the best way to repaint a car. It doesn't fit ALL occasions, that is where a decision has to be made and ONLY the owner of the car can make it.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 10-10-2002).]

I should never have posted all that Bull. Sorry.


"Long Live Freedom!"

Chad Landry
TC Member #643
ACES Member #4556
'68 El Camino


[This message has been edited by cjlandry (edited 10-10-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjlandry:
But in paint and body, the customer is forced to pay for whatever the shop owner decides is appropriate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forcing? There are tens of thousands of different body shops- don't like the owner? Find one that suits YOU- thats what free market is all about!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjlandry:
"His concern for his reputation makes it his car."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Personally, I think that is GREAT. Why? Because "he" cares about the quality of work he does and is not going to throw together some bunch of shlock work and call it done. In Gordon's case (and MartinSr, too obviously) I would bet money they would treat YOUR car like THEIR car. WHat is wrong with that? Do unto others..... I think that someone who wants a reputation as a top notch body and paint guy is far better than someone who does the work just for "the work".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjlandry:
"Yet you take a classic car to the local body shops and suddenly it becomes "the artist's canvas". I'm sorry, but attitudes like that are what make most of us distrust paint and body shops in general."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


A business having pride in their workmanship causes distrust from the consumer's standpoint? I guess MartinSR isn't the only one agreeing to disagree in this thread.

[
The point of the owners decision is a valid one, but the fact that a restorer /business owner takes a lot of pride in the work that they do and views it as "their canvas" is hardly a cause for "distrust", IMHO. Maybe I interpreted your post in a different way?

Anyway- It is SOO great to have MartinSr and Gordon on this board- they are truly helpful to hobbyists as well as people who choose to take their cars to body shops. Their knowledgeable dialog lends confidence to both groups of people, and they should be commended for the willingess to help. THey are GREAT http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif!

OK,I will admit that that I only do #1 show cars. If a customer wants a halfass job,I send him down the road. That's because I only want to do top quality work and I am up front about it. I like it that way because our work will get 0 points off for paint and body and the customers are happy with our work. If you do what I call substandard work, the customer will look at some of the things you overlooked in the name of price or speed,he will always say "I thought that would have come out better than that". In other words,who decides how good or how half-ass the final product will be and when do they decide? After the car is finished? The way I work, there is no question.
I don't understand the assertion that body shops determine the way cars are fixed. Quite the contrary. Customers and insurance companies always determine the quality of work by dictating the price and time frame to get the car done. I know I am always compromising quality in production shop work because the customer needs his car yesterday or he's not paying enough.TO think someone thinks it's refreshing that someone whould perform substandard work is unbelievable.
Thanks to those who appreciate our input into this discussion.
Gordon Vm
Restoration Motorsports

cjlandry, WOW, I really hate to see this thread go even further south.

It is the customers choice, BUT, he then has to find the shop willing to do what he chooses. It is not the customers "right" to force a shop to do what he wishes.

If you want to buy a new Mercedes with a cheapie paint job and a bed spread thrown over the seats to save money your local Mercedes dealer does not HAVE to provide you with the car.

Gordons choice to only do cars that the customer is WILLING to pay to have him strip it is much more to do with his BACKING the his product than to do with his attempt to "control" his canvis (if I can be so bold as to speak for him). He has to stand behind those jobs, knowing that from the bare metal up HE is in control provides him with that confidence. It has little to nothing to do with an image. Other than of course the repuation around his area that HE is the guy to provide the ultimate paint job. I understand that and totally respect him for that.

I think I can assume that he doesn't "force" anyone to have him paint their car. He gives them a price with an explaination of what HE would like to do to the car and why he feels that way. The owner then CHOOSES to pay the price and have him do it or he walks and goes to another shop. After he goes to one or more shops he then DECIDES himself where to go to have the car done. NO "forcing" as far as I can see.


Like I said, only the owner of the car can make that decision. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif



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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Yeah, I'm sorry if I came off a bit harsh. I appreciate the guys who do nothing but show cars. But I get upset when someone considers something less than that "substandard".

I do substandard paint and body work on my own car because it's my only means of transportation and I can never take the down-time to do it all perfectly.

To me "substandard" is by definition crappy work. But "standard", or the middle ground, is good work that makes people happy. Then there's the good professional restorer who does work "far above standard".

It does get frustrating though, when the middle ground is nearly impossible to find. You either get a shop who wants a perfect show car or an Earl Scheib.

I really was tripping out on that post, but mainly because I interpreted other posts as attacks on MARTINSR, vettefella, and others who don't believe it's always necessary to strip to the metal. I get carried away sometimes, and I apologize. I'm going back to delete that post. I'm sorry I was such a jerk to the "always above standard" guys.

I'm sure Gordon and the others who I came down on in my earlier post are exceptional painters who can be trusted.

Again I apologize for being such a jerk. I need to learn to keep my mouth shut more often.



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My Web Page (http://www.landry-family.com) (updated 06-21-02)

"Long Live Freedom!"

Chad Landry
TC Member #643
ACES Member #4556
'68 El Camino

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JU87:
The point of the owners decision is a valid one, but the fact that a restorer /business owner takes a lot of pride in the work that they do and views it as "their canvas" is hardly a cause for "distrust", IMHO. Maybe I interpreted your post in a different way?

Anyway- It is SOO great to have MartinSr and Gordon on this board- they are truly helpful to hobbyists as well as people who choose to take their cars to body shops. Their knowledgeable dialog lends confidence to both groups of people, and they should be commended for the willingess to help. THey are GREAT http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was going to email you an apology, but I couldn't. As stated above, I went off without thinking it through. I jumped to the defense of MARTINSR and vettefella because I interpreted your posts incorrectly.

I'm sorry. You're absolutely correct. I was wrong for posting all that BS.



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My Web Page (http://www.landry-family.com) (updated 06-21-02)

"Long Live Freedom!"

Chad Landry
TC Member #643
ACES Member #4556
'68 El Camino

Chad, it sounds like you have had some very bad experiences with body shops and if this forum gave you a place to vent some anger,that's OK. No offence taken. I do understand where you are coming from. Not everyone can afford the most expensive,high quality paint jobs. And that's not a put down. I myself couldn't afford one of my own restorations.
We used to have a saying for when other guys in the shop whould give you the business about something on a car you were working on. It goes like this: "There is only one person I have to satisfy and it's not you. It's the owner of the car. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GVMLS6:
Not everyone can afford the most expensive,high quality paint jobs. And that's not a put down. I myself couldn't afford one of my own restorations.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that an odd thought? I remember when that hit me long ago, "I couldn't afford to pay for what I do". It just sounds so strange.....well I guess you would have to be there. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Gordon, remember, there ARE customers for all those shops that do not do the high quality that you do. There are customers for the cheap clothes, small old homes (that's me) cheapie second run movie theaters, low priced hamburger, etc. In fact, I will bet you are one of them. I know I don't go out to the best resturants in town (ok a couple times a year) and I do buy the less expensive products some times. There is a market for all those "substandard" products because not everyone can afford to buy what they do for a living. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

cjlandry, by the way, that is mighty nice of you to say that you made a mistake. I know that these forums are NOT the same as BSing around a shop like I call it. It is hard to "read" what people mean, without the one on one connection meanings can get skewed.

I have went back and changed or deleted stuff myself, I just wish you could do THAT when you are BSing around a shop in person! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif


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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjlandry:
I was going to email you an apology, but I couldn't. As stated above, I went off without thinking it through. I jumped to the defense of MARTINSR and vettefella because I interpreted your posts incorrectly.

I'm sorry. You're absolutely correct. I was wrong for posting all that BS.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because I disagreed with MartinSr on one aspect of this "discussion" didnt mean I was bashing him or vettefella. NO WAY- I think MartinSr is GREAT, and have ACTUALLY TAKEN his advice to practice- both materials and techniques http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif; and am DEFINITELY better off because of it. He puts out a book, I'll be happy to buy a copy! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Like I said- it is really a privelege to get advice from people like MartinSr and Gordon- it is a TREMENDOUS advantage that many "technologically challenged" hobbyists/restorers simply dont have/may have little access to.

It takes a decent person to admit when they foul up, and since you felt like you had to apologize and would actually take it to email-

NO hard feelings; and NO BIG DEAL! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by JU87 (edited 10-11-2002).]

I think this discusion has been pretty productive and didn't feel like I was "picked on" or anything like that. Any comments I have made in that regard were jokes.


I have my REAL intrests in much more important things like my little girl starting to call me "da da", THAT is some thing to get excited about. This here was just education. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

If every tread in the forum was as "heated" as this we would all learn a lot more about this stuff. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif If anyone were that upset about it, it wouldn't have lasted so long. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif


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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GVMLS6:
Chad, it sounds like you have had some very bad experiences with body shops<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I've had good experiences with a few, and no experience with the rest other than to talk with them and then walk away. I know my budget and my time frame and neither is conducive to any major jobs.

I worked in a body shop for a while many years ago. It was one of the shops with someone's Mustang sitting there collecting dust while we did collision repairs. I learned a little and saw some nice paint jobs go out the door. But it wasn't the career choice for me.

I do believe "Collision Repair", "Custom Paint", and "Restoration" should be three different specialties. But I also understand that it's easier to make a living doing collision repairs for insurance companies or shooting custom paint jobs on undamaged late model vehicles.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MARTINSR:
I have my REAL intrests in much more important things like my little girl starting to call me "da da", THAT is some thing to get excited about. This here was just education. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hear ya'. About a month ago daughter started saying "Daddy!" with a big smile everytime I walk in the room. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Nothing like it in the world. But her first word ever was "Git!" (which she learned from me because I'm constantly running the dog off). http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif

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My Web Page (http://www.landry-family.com) (updated 06-21-02)

"Long Live Freedom!"

Chad Landry
TC Member #643
ACES Member #4556
'68 El Camino

[This message has been edited by cjlandry (edited 10-11-2002).]

Had to bump this up. Haven't been here for a while. It is nice to see that all posters are adults and try to clarify their thoughts, and respect others. The "Big Dogs" (MARTINSR) etc. are ALL correct based on the needs and pocket book of the vehicle owner. Also, "never say never" Each vehicle and its condition are unique. Stripping a car is a "slippery slope" that can result in huge investments of time and $$$$. My 66 Elky is a classic example of a "runaway paint job" eight years and $20,000.00, still not done. That being said, many shops (including mine) are very careful to protect themselves, and their reputation by recommending stripping to bare metal on older cars with lots of paint on them, to insure the best outcome. I have been caught in the past when I did it the way the customer wanted (to save $$$$) outcome was what I expected, customer had a vision of a "show" finish, BAD DEAL. A shop that has a top quality reputation must maintain that reputation by delivering a consistent, quality product. That can only be done by making repair, refinish choices based on what the car needs, without preconcieved notions of we "always or never" do. Many shops are also reluctant to refinish over a non professional prep job, as they will be the ones named when someone asks "who painted your car"? Hopefully all have found everyones' post educational, and will have a greater understanding of many issues regarding overall refinishing. Karl

Karl, a wise old painter once gave me a very profound thought.

"If you paint over a run, who's is it now"?

You brought up a point that I meant to say but never did. Sometimes you don't WANT to know what is under your paint. This sounds ridiculas so some I am sure but it is reality. On my own '65 Buick Skylark daily driver I did not strip it. I CHOSE not to because I did not have the time and "only" wanted a nice daily driver. One that I could leave out at the parking lot at a baseball game and not worry about it. It was a decent original car that had been painted once. I did know that the side had been hit one time VERY hard and in fact the quarter was in at the door a little if you sighted down the side of the car. I knew there was a lot of filler on that quarter and DID NOT want to get into it. Why would I, it would add a LOT of time to the project, that's why. I didn't feel that enough love for this car to get in that deep. Now, I sanded and painted it. I fully detailed it. The car looked new! When my first "incedent" occured I didn't flip. When my wife wrecked it in a heavy rain one night I didn't flip (well not too much). It now has not seen a garage in 12 years and needs a repaint. That "bondo" filled quarter still looks the same. It would have added many hours to the project back 12 years ago. I left it alone and sanded and painted it. I pulled my camp trailer on vacation every year, in fact I have put 180,000 miles on it! That "bondo" and previous paint job hasn't slowed me down one bit.

My Gran Sport, that is a different story. It was stripped, EVERY single thing fixed to the best of my ability. Etch primed, urethane primed. The big difference is it will NOT be left out in the Oakland Coliseum parking lot while I am watching the A's play. It will NOT be out in the dark in the pouring rain. It is a much more valuable car.

Stripping is best, but it is always a choice. I have never had the paint police come by and arrest me for not stripping the Skylark. I really doubt even to this day that anyone could walk up the the car and tell me that I didn't strip it. Whould it be a better car if I had stripped it and pulled out the quarter and repaired everything perfect, yes. But it would not have changed one single thing in what the car has given me the last 180,000 miles and 12 years.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NHRA1877:
so should i continue stripping since i already started? i mean i have the time so i don`t mind the time, in fact i find it kinda fun. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey if you find that fun ill drive my car on over HEHE



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1969 Chevelle 454
Factory a/c
4speed
2.53 non posi 10 bolt :(
And so on

Visit my site:
Http://24.145.153.102/chevelle/index.html

I stripped my 70 down to bare metal and am really glad I did because I found a hell of a mess underneath what looked like a decent body job!The drivers door was so full of bondo that I scrapped it and bought a used one.I found emblem holes not welded shut and a whole host of other goodies.To stand 50 feet from this car you would say it looked great.My body man is out in the shop right now blocking the third coat of primer.It is gonna look great and I will try to post some pics when done!