I'm looking into a pro-touring rear suspension.I think i have seen a 3 link rear and truck arm which do you guys think works better

Truckarms definetly easier and cheaper, try posting in the protouring section. You'll probably get some long drawn out answer but basically it boils down to money and time. If you want the best you want the 3 link, but since no one makes a bolt in kit its gonna take you a lot of time and money to do it right. Even if there was a kit it involves a lot of fabrication so its gonna be more $ than a truckarm no matter what. If you must have the best do a 3 link. If you want something different and better than stock but kinda noisy, do the truckarm. you could even do the stock, many people have made the stock stuff work pretty good. If your not gonna do more than some canyon carving or posing at starbucks you can do good things with the stock. Truckarm does seem to be a step up from stock though.

yes i have asked this type of question around here to and after alot of pondering i have decided on the truckarm but if a 3 link or something better were to come out id probably go with that but for now short of fabing a whole system yourself the truckarm seams the way to go for the step up from stock.

also what i found is many people who dont have them doubt them but everyone ive talked to with one swears by it so i dunno but im pretty sure im gonna do it and make my own decision on how good it is.

just my $0.02 but either way good luck

Hey thanks guys,
I thought i seen on here some one did a three link.Of course they removed theyre body.I am a welder fabricator as a proffesion,so that doesnt bother me.I was thinking of doing my own double tube truck arms w/coilovers.It will be a track car,that will see duty as a street car.I believe i can make it work,may be noisy but i can live with it.I like the idea of the truck arm but some say it binds to much.I think if i use some thing like a currie jonnie joint it should work out ok.Sorry for the long winded post.I'm trying to get the most out my choice.I dont want to destroy a good muscle car.

I think if i use some thing like a currie jonnie joint it should work out ok.Sorry for the long winded post.The Johnny-Joint, or any type of spherical bearing would actually increase the bind. Bushing compliance (and bending of the axle & arms) is the only way for the axle to articulate on a truck-arm setup. Anything firmer than rubber will induce more bind regardless of whether it allows turning on another axis or not.

Hey thanks derrick
I thought some thing was up with that cause i didnt see any one doing it.What do you think about the truck arm with coilovers

Some kind of Heim joint maybe?

Hey thanks derrick
I thought some thing was up with that cause i didnt see any one doing it.What do you think about the truck arm with coilovers

Many people (including myself) have made that mistake. It is Derek.

My thoughts? I think it's a big step up from stock, but still well below the possabilities of a good 3-link or torque-arm setup. Unfortunately, nobody makes a kit for those, and designing one yourself to work well isn't easy. :(

The only reason NASCAR teams run it is because the rules dictate it, but as you can see, they've figured out how to get a lot out of it. :)

Depending on your needs, and budget, you can also do a lot with the stock setup, and it shouldn't be overlooked when considering your options. Be sure to check out the ongoing Panhard Bar topic in this forum, as there's some good info in there as well. :)

My preference is for a good 3 link with panhard bar or watts linkage. We have customers running truck arm that are happy with it but they`ve never compared it back to back with a 3 link either. Yes doing a well thought out 3 link is a lot of work but the results are worth it. As many of you know we`ve been working on an aftermarket 3 link/phb but years and we still haven`t figured out an easy to install version that isn`t full of compromises. It`s a LOT easier to do a one off/weld in version though. Mark SC&C

hey mark,

so you guys have a 3 link that works its just not marketable due to modifications so you cant provide it yet?


if so maybe for now you could sell plans..:D because really i dont mind cutting and welding the crap out of my car to make it do what i want but i just dont have that race proven expertise to desighn one of these things which is about the only reason im not going with one.


i guess basically i would just like to see a basic plan for a good three link in an a body so it could be assessed and priced out.... does anybody have one of these?

What is the purpose of the car? Why do you think you need a one off suspension? Is it for personal satisfaction or does the car need to fit a certain criteria to be competitive or do you just enjoy to building of your car and want something different?

i dunno if ur asking me but,

i really want something out of the box i want something that handles as good as it could possibly handle ( i know i wont probably obtain this) but trying is fun and i love to build things. so really i just want to explore my options and as far as the use for the car i will be driving it everyday. raceing might find its way into my schedule i have a feeling when i hit the strip and/or roadcourse im gonna get hooked but for now i want a car that is an all around monster that still does everything i need it to.

well do you want to drive it this year or in 3 years? If you do a one off custom 3 link I have a feeling you will get the snowball effect and want something just as special for the front. Pretty soon you have a 3-5 year project on your hands and every year something new comes up and you'll want that too. I'd say do something simple and available and get the car going. Learn to drive the car to its potential and then consider upgrading the rear suspension once your driving skills have become greater than the limits of the stock suspension or truckarm.

Maybe its me, but I see a lot of guys these days needing the very best and one off. Usually they either never finish the car, buid it and realize they don't know how to drive it good enough to take advantage, don't drive it at all and maybe sell it, or just never finish it. If you just like the challenge of building thats cool and totally understandable, but if your main goal is to have something that is going to handle killer, you don't necessarily need a 3 link. You can have more fun sooner by going with something simpler and more available

Maybe its me...It's not just you. ;)

well right now im in school and so i try to work on the car in my free time. and i completly know what your saying but i feel like the suspension is the platform for anything else i do and above all i want a car that handle as opposed to goes fast so that i wont kill myself in it. i really am just probing the whole 3 link thing and as far as the truckarm goes im pretty set on that untill i feel like i might need more. the reason to swap so soon is i need to seriously remedy the rear suspension anyway and i feel like the truckarm will be installed quick enough ( a week or two with my cousin in his garage.) and the front end is being pieced together now. ( im waiting for the lowers mark is developing to come out so that i can purchase a whole kit from him.) i had no real clue what direction to take the car before comeing to this site other than i wanted a chevelle that handled well and had good power. now that i have been able to look at others work and make some decisions i feel like i have a very good plan laid out and i can attain my goals in my time frame.

infact i have already run into what you are talking about i originally installed a ssbc power brake kit only to realize that i am going to remove almost the whole thing in place of a vette setup when i get the sc & c kit. so i do know what you are talking about and no i dont think i need a 3 link but it would be damn cool and why not explore whats out there now so i know about it later.

Dang I don't know too many students with a twin turbo 3 link chevelle, that would be killer, but in reality it sounds a bit like a pipe dream. Sounds like you have a better plan sorted out now. Good luck

yes very much a pipe dream but by god i want it and i will do the hard work it takes to get it and nobody will tell me different :-D im a little pig headed like that but i have always worked hard and that has allowed me to get what i wanted out of life so why stop dreaming now. i always dreamed of owning a chevelle and never thaught i would be able to untill after college. well one thing lead to another and here i am. right?


but yes i have never had the plan to just take it off the road sell my firstborn and drop bank on the car all at once. but a little at a time and a couple years out of school i will hopefully have the funds and space to do what i want but untill then ill scrounge cash to get the suspension where i need it.

thanks for your input though i appreciate the guidance from guys like you and others on here that have been threw it before. it really helps us younger guys muck thru it all.

Hey, I'm not much older than you :). Sounds like you have it sorted out!

oh hahaha i didnt realize. well then lets just stick with more seasoned. by the way how does your t56 hold up to your motor im thinking of going with one but im wondering what the power rateings are on the beefed up ones and if they are even needed.

T56's are great. Really strong trannies. I wouldn't worry about one unless I was pushing over 1000hp. The stock ones do need the steel shift fork and carbon synchros though. Thats it.

I'm with brabbit,
Why cant i built the rear of the car which is the most invovled as far as welding and fabrication goes.I have read all the post here and else wheres and most agree the rear suspensions leave alot to be desired...right?No i dont have to have the newest and most improve thingamabob.i am the type of person that wants to do things once.I mean if it works dont change it....right?I dont mind doing thefab work now as it is winter timeand around here it will be april till all the salt and hyperchloride is washed off the road by the april showers.So i have this long to do the rear suspension.I dont see spending the money for a scab rear suspension just to drive it for a few years then change it.Correct me,,really ,not being a smart az here,but if i do something now to the rear suspension and then learn to drive it with whati have,then go and change it later then i have to learn the car and driving it all over again..right? I'm just trying to get the most out of my money.I'm a welder fabricator with access to autocad 2002 programing.I want to save a little money by doing the labor myself.I have listened to derrick and mark(sc&c),I understand that a 3-link is hard to get the right lenght bars and to get all the angles correct.Some people say the truck arms bind alot.this will be a car that i want to race alot and drive on the street also.Thats my thoughts hope no one gets upset.I just want the best and do it once,i think some people can undrstand that i hope.

The problem with your perspective on this issue IMO is that it sounds as if you are looking at this from a building point. It is the same thing I see over and over and over. Its the "need the best parts" syndrome. Are you building the car for bragging rights and just knowing that it is so killer in your head? Or do you plan on flogging the car heavily and really need every last ounce of performance?

If it is the latter, I suggest you go learn how to drive a 4000ilb car first. The problem with the latest trend of "pro-touring" or good handling cars is that everyone seems to be used to the drag-racing days, where for the most part you just throw the most power in the car, hit the gas and go. Of course in reality it really isn't that easy but its the idea. Even if you didn't drag race it, how cool is it to show your buddies how much power you got!

Thing about performance handling cars is that it is very difficult to take advantage of the performance it has to offer due to the complexity and skills it takes to do it correctly and safely. So the real question is do you want the 3 link because its cool and you like knowing that you have the best, or do you really want the best handling car? If you want the best handling car, invest your money in the driver first. Do you know how to tune a 3 link? Do you know how to tune anti-squat, pinion angle, rebound, compression, high speed compression etc?? Why buy double adjustable coilovers if you don't even know how to set them correctly? I see so many people wasting time and money on fancy parts just so they can feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I personally would rather be out on the road enjoying my car and what is has to offer and bettering my skills then spending countless hours welding, cutting, computing, and fabbing something that is way beyond the means of my driving capablities and creating a car that will take forever to finish and that I won't even be able to really take advantage of

BTW I'm not trying to be anti custom anything, if money wasn't an object I'd say go for it, it definetly can't hurt to have really nice high end suspension components and such but when it will take so much time and effort you would really want to question whether it was worth it or not. My point was that since something like the truckarm is available that it or the stock stuff can work very well also

Sorry,no 3 link plans for sale. We`ve got 3 1/2 years of R&D in our 3 link/phb package. It took a few weeks to design it initially and a weekend to fab/install it.The real trick is making the whole car work well once it`s in! design work. I can also tell you this,all the theory and computer sims in the world won`t help you if your car doesn`t agree with them. Cars can be funny that way. ;)
I think you`d be very suprised at how competent you can make the car without chopping it up. You`re on the right track with correcting the front suspension geometry. Next step select the right spring rates and shocks (which also lowers the car). Then a set of Currectrac rear arms to take the slop out of the rear end without introducing non linear binding. Now the proper combination of swaybars and a really good set of performance tires and your car will be able to go toe to toe with most modern performance cars *if* you do your part. :thumbsup: If you decide to do a 3 link later,reuse the lower arms and make a new mount for one upper,modify as necessary and you haven`t really wasted anything. :) Mark SC&C

Mark makes a good point about being able to step into this one piece at a time.

To tell the truth, I am not a fan of truck arms. I am sure they can work but talk about a huge amount of space consumed by suspension. And that in turn impacts other things like exhaust routing (so you can no longer buy an off the shelf system and install it). Then there is the extra weight involved with any larger components. And the increased installation effort.

I am a fan of positive lateral axle location and can relate from personal experience that you *will* be able to tell the difference from this change even on the street in everyday driving. This will benefit you all the time and not just when you are on the fine razor edge of performance.

You can improve the lateral axle location dramatically using the upper control arms Mark mentioned. Or you can just fab up a panhard bar and totally fix the lateral axle location. There have been a number of examples of home brew PHBs posted, so it is not impossible to do. They can also be run with the stock C4L arms and bushings.

Regarding the complexity issue though... there are varying degrees depending on how far you want to go. Mark and SCandC are working a lot of variables between the 3rd link attributes of anti-squat, wheel hop, and brake hop plus the PHB attributes of roll center height and lateral weight transfer balance. For just a PHB and basic 6/10ths driving you can just bolt it in and drive. It will be as good/safe as OEM, or put another way it will very likely have excess understeer. Now if you want to tune it for ultimate balanced cornering power, then you should be prepared to spend a bit more time and money in expirementing and tuning everything with the right springs/shocks/anti-roll bars. You may have to go very custom on the anti-roll bars. I would observe that the lower you mount the PHB the further you deviate from OEM and the more tuning effort will be required.

Lately, and having only recently learned about them, I am kind of fascinated with the Herb Adams decoupled torque arm for the rear suspension.

To every oneThat has posted,
First off thank you,it has been very informative.
Part of the reason i started this post was because about a year ago when i bought tis car,I posted over at pt.com.I asked what was the best rear suspension setup for track use and some street driving.Man i got pounded about using poly bushings and was told the c4l was horrible.
So I laid low for awhile read some posts and then i found this site and was hoping to get a little help.
So I'll try and post the same question.
What should I use mark said the currie arms,do I use them upper and lower.
Then I have ben told not to use a rear sway bar?
How about some double adjustable shocks.
It is a small block car and going to stay small block so what is a good starting rate for springs.
Front sway bar size?
What about the front geometry,is it like firstgen camarosand second gen novas.

sorry for spelling your name wrong a few times derek.I get on here and start typing and forget how you spell it.i have a friend that spells his name the way i was typing yours.Again sorry for the typeo

No problem about my name, it's been happening for years... :clonk:

LOL. A guy I know spells is Dareik... No lie. :o

Use the Currectrac lowers for sure and since big power is in your plans I`d use the uppers too. They`re adj. and bombproof. On moderate horsepower cars the cheaper Edelbrock uppers have the same dynamic benefits they`re just not as strong.
Some folks will tell you not to run a rear swaybar and even that if you do your rear spring rates are all wrong. Funny, Formula 1 cars all run them. Maybe with a yearly budgets of well over $50,000,000.00 a year and the best engineers and testing equipment on the planet those teams don`t know how to select a decent rear spring rate? ;) Fact is they can be a great tuning aid. Now I can see why a lot of guys want to get away from them on A body,the stock configuration stinks and imparts additional binding on the rear suspension that it already has more than it`s share of. Bars up to 1" seem to work fairly well though. Larger and I feel they do more harm than good. You can set a Chevelle up to handle well and corner nice and flat with no rear bar,especially of you add more rear spring rate bias but typically the car will still be more responsive and have crisper turn in with a rear bar.
Adj. shocks are a fantastic tuning tool. Even single adj. shocks will be a huge benefit.
Spring rates depend on a lot of variables but for handling I like a front rate of between 550-650lbs/in. I still like Eibach Pro springs (set of 4) for ProTouring type applications. The less geometry improvements you do the more spring rate will help as a bandaid of sorts. You can run much stiffer springs if you like but I think you`d be way past the point of diminishing returns.
That brings us to the front end geometry. Yes,it`s bad. All the same issues as the 1st gens. Backward camber curves,much too low roll center,huge amount of lateral roll center migration,and gobs of bumpsteer. The good news is that it`s easy (today) to fix it all and end up with geometry that`s comparable with many modern performance cars. A search here should reveal a lot of info on that.
The more you improve the front geometry the smaller bar you want to run vs. the rear bar (if you`re running one). For example an A body with a Stage 2-Plus could run a 1" bars front and rear (depending on spring rate also) and be very well balanced. With stock front geometry you`d want a 1 5/16" front bar to get the same balance,roughly speaking. Mark SC&C

stay away from cheap aluminum adj shocks. Doesn't matter how adjustable they are if they have crappy valving or how cool they look. Also plan on spending time on the same road repeatedly or at the track tuning back to back to back. Its easier to have a preset shock tuned for your vehicle than it is to get an adjustable setup dialed in. It is not a set it and forget it thing, unless you don't mind leaving performance on the table. They are really for someone who needs that extra bit of adjustability when dialing in their suspension when the chassis is responding negatively, but too feel this and know how to effectively tune the shock takes lots of experience and lots of hard driving. IF you just do some mild canyon carving and street driving a good setup bilstein or edelbrock shock will work well also.

Thanks mark and cody.

1.Shocks..How do you guys like afco's or qa-1's
2.I have seen that the lower c/a's from 68-72 chevelles are the same as the first gen camaro's and 2nd gen novas.Except some chevelles had the oval bushings.
3.Can you do the gulstrand mod to the mounting points of the upper c/a's like the nova's and camaro's.
4.I have seen some guys converting over to full coilovers,any real benifit from this or is it a case of the bling effect.
5.Mark i see that you use the tall ball joints in some of your kits,does this keep you from having to the gulstrand mods(see question 3.)
6.I will do the c-5 or c-6 brake up grade with stock spindles.Can i do your stage2 with out the need for the ATS tall spindles.Can i upgrade eventually to the tall spindle without redoing the whole front suspension.
7.Thanks for all the help.

1. Shocks- haven't personally used either but have heard they are both decent. Also don't let me scare you away from adj shocks, they are definetly a really great tool, however I just wanted to make it more understood what you are getting into when going with them. Single adj is easier but why only have a rebound adjustability and not compression.

2.I am not a chevelle expert but have never heard this before

3. Again not an expert but from what I have read NO

4.Coilovers are great, however they are basically shocks that also house a coil spring, so just like regular shocks how good they are can vary greatly depending on who you go with. Valving is critical. Again coilovers are great but will you and can you take advantage of what they offer? All they offer is adj ride height compared to regular shock/spring. Whats nice is that you can adjust left to right to compensate for different weights on different sides of the car, but you need to have access to corner balancing scales to do this. Its not necessary ride height but spring preload. This is a benefit but again, you have to ask yourself whether you need this or not.

5.I believe the answer is yes but only sort of since you don't do the guldstrand on chevelles, I'm sure there is a boat load of data why and I'll let someone who knows answer that

Coil overs on the front of very minimal value. If the changed the lower mounting point, and thus the motion ratio, it would be a different story but they do not. You can get the same ride height adjustment capabilities using stock car spring adjusters instead.

In the rear, if they use the same mounting point as the OEM shocks, then there is a benefit from coil overs in that they improve the lateral motion ratio of the rear suspension. Put another way they increase rear roll stiffness from the springs above what it is with the stock setup.

^^^
So by merely switching to coilovers you somehow get more range of motion and this somehow makes the rear end not roll as much? Sounds like something you would take in and adjust accordingly, not necessarily a benefit. How does improving the lateral motion affect the way the car drives and how much difference will it make?

Cody, coil-overs in the rear move the springs outboard by about 4-6" (guesstimating here).

In simple jounce/rebound terms, the motion ratio is 1:1. For every inch the axle goes up, the spring compresses one inch. For roll, however, the springs are so far inboard on the axle, that ratio is something like 0.6:1 (another guesstimate) If one side goes up 1" and the other side goes down 1", one spring will compress 0.6" and the other will extend 0.6"

Moving them outboard will give you more roll resistance, with the same spring rate, so the ride will still be the same. Balance will need to be adjusted accordingly.

Gotcha, so basically you get a tiny bit more roll resistance due to them being typically placed a little bit farther outboard. Seems pretty negligible really, interesting though.

We ran some numbers for lateral roll stiffness and motion ratios recently in the "panhard bar basics" thread and the difference between stock spring location and coil over location was fairly significant. The coil over location moved the springs around 8" as I recall. It would not change the ride but would change the front/rear cornering balance towards more oversteer. Smaller rear bar, or larger front bar would be typical correcting adjustments.

Here is a 3-link website you should look at if you're going that route. This appears to be the finest execution of a three-link I have seen. It addresses the rear suspension with some very sound technology. Adapting it to a full frame car would be easy. And....you aren't limited to the way you can run your exhaust like the truck suspension. I can't stand running my exhaust in front of the rear tires which is what you're limited to with the truck suspension. Call me a wimp but I like the rock and roll in my stereo...not necessarily coming in my driver's window.

http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/

Also...some good discussion on the product from guys that have a handle on three link suspension.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/suspension-chassis/399655-retrofitting-unbalanced-engineerings-decoupled.html