i see all kinds of clones bringing sometimes more than real cars. a 70 z28 clone went for like $20k last week and real cars are bringing around $10-$15k. Same for chevelles and mopars.

Because people are stupid enough to pay that much for them. These cars are only worth as much as someone is willing to pay. I think it was B.T. Barnum that said "a sucker is born every second" JMHO :D

Bill

Quite often these clones are top quality cars, albeit immitations. There are people out there that will pay good money for a quality car and are not overly concrned about the pedigree. Who knows what turns the crank for some of these people - could be colour, engine, sound, horsepower, etc. Just my two pennies worth.

By the way, if you can point me in the direction of a real, half way decent 70 Z/28 for $10-15K I'll take a dozen.

I think Don has said it well, often these cars are very well done and lets face it very expensive to restore if done correctly. I'm not talking about a guy who just puts emblems on his car but a well done restoration. If you are doing an accurate Yenko clone or SS with all the correct parts you're going to spend big bucks to do it right. While they will never be worth what a legitimate car is worth the cost of restoration dictates they aren't going to be cheap either.

Man I'm tired as hell of hearing of people talking down clone cars. I would rather pay good money for a frame off restored clone than top dollar for a ss that doesn't have an original motor or trans or no paper work to prove anything. I've seen so many storie of guys who have paid 30,000 to 40,000 for a reall ss car to find out the block was restamped and they actually had a clone. I would love to have an orignal ss car with all the documentation but they are few and far between anymore not to mention I could not afford one.
And if I could I wouldn't want to drive it. I know the 70-72 chevelles and back then it was an option. I have taken my car and optioned it 34yrs later. I love the numbers matching cars and would love to own one, but not everyone can. I guarantee I can make good money off my car if I ever sell it not because it is a clone but because it is a beautifully restored chevelle that has been done right. I'm sure I'll catch plenty of heat for this and I could really care less. If you are lucky enough to have a matching number documented car you are blessed. If not get a decent car and make it as nice as you can. If you can honestly look at my car and cut it down because it is not a real ss and say it's not as nice as one then good for you. I don't represent my car as an original ss I represent my car as a beautifully restored muscle car that I know alot of people would kill to have. I love old muscle cars original or not. If you think it's a waste of money to restore a chevelle and make it how you like it then find a different hobby.

Because people are stupid enough to pay that much for them. These cars are only worth as much as someone is willing to pay. I think it was B.T. Barnum that said "a sucker is born every second" JMHO :D

Bill

A car is worth more to some of us than just what somebody is willing to pay for it. I hope you never have to sell yours.

A car is worth more to some of us than just what somebody is willing to pay for it. I hope you never have to sell yours.

I was responding to the original post. He asked why clones are going for more money that a real one. I am not putting down clones or real cars. I was stating my opinion on why these car prices have gone crazy. A lot of the people that pay any price for these cars are buying them as a investment. They are not really car people, just big shots with deep pockets. They are driving the prices so high that the average family man such as myself will not be able to buy one today. Yes if I did sell my car I would want good money for it. On the same token I do not want to be a hypocrite and rape the market so it makes it unobtainable for the average guy or gal to buy one. What a lot of people don't realize is that our hobby is slowly being taken away from the average person. As far as what my car is worth to me, it's priceless, I could not sell it and then try to replace what I have with the money that I get for it.

I was responding to the original post. He asked why clones are going for more money that a real one. I am not putting down clones or real cars. I was stating my opinion on why these car prices have gone crazy. A lot of the people that pay any price for these cars are buying them as a investment. They are not really car people, just big shots with deep pockets. They are driving the prices so high that the average family man such as myself will not be able to buy one today. Yes if I did sell my car I would want good money for it. On the same token I do not want to be a hypocrite and rape the market so it makes it unobtainable for the average guy or gal to buy one. What a lot of people don't realize is that our hobby is slowly being taken away from the average person. As far as what my car is worth to me, it's priceless, I could not sell it and then try to replace what I have with the money that I get for it.

AMEN

Some people including my self care more about the quality of the car now than what it was over 30 years ago. I have built several cars and know what it costs to do a quality restoration, luckily the camaros and chevelles are among the few that usually allow you to recoop your investment.

Man I'm tired as hell of hearing of people talking down clone cars. I would rather pay good money for a frame off restored clone than top dollar for a ss that doesn't have an original motor or trans or no paper work to prove anything. I've seen so many storie of guys who have paid 30,000 to 40,000 for a reall ss car to find out the block was restamped and they actually had a clone. I would love to have an orignal ss car with all the documentation but they are few and far between anymore not to mention I could not afford one.
And if I could I wouldn't want to drive it. I know the 70-72 chevelles and back then it was an option. I have taken my car and optioned it 34yrs later. I love the numbers matching cars and would love to own one, but not everyone can. I guarantee I can make good money off my car if I ever sell it not because it is a clone but because it is a beautifully restored chevelle that has been done right. I'm sure I'll catch plenty of heat for this and I could really care less. If you are lucky enough to have a matching number documented car you are blessed. If not get a decent car and make it as nice as you can. If you can honestly look at my car and cut it down because it is not a real ss and say it's not as nice as one then good for you. I don't represent my car as an original ss I represent my car as a beautifully restored muscle car that I know alot of people would kill to have. I love old muscle cars original or not. If you think it's a waste of money to restore a chevelle and make it how you like it then find a different hobby.
i didnt talk down clones, read my post its very short. just curious. i agree that why restore a numbers matching and not drive it(the deep pockets) i would rather build a clone and beat it or drive it than risk ruining a good original. Wrecks, the cooling system that couldnt and cracked an original block, theft all are a reality. Trust me i run a body shop! i also think barret jackson has driven up these cars because of ignorance. people think that just because a 69 z28 with 4 original miles immaculately restored brings mega bucks and their x44 car is worth a fortune. my case in general. i bought my 70 base camaro off ebay for $5500. Put extra $7000 in it and you know the rest. ten years ago people were going to the recycler with these cars. couldnt give them away. now muscle car dreams cause some of us to dip in our 401k. i like clones myself just wondering why clones were worth close to originals. i see your point about good quality restored clones. i might do this with my camaro.

I would be one of those guys that would prefer having a clone over a true SS. WHY ? Because the "ultimate" muscle car for me is not a perfect numbers matching 70 SS car. The ultimate muscle car for me is a a car that has all the goodies I want in it, most of which werent available in 1970. I dont really care what my car came with from the factory because even if that was an LS6, it would not be what I want.

How often do you hear guys on this board say "I would love to do that to my car if it wasnt a # matchin SS"

They're worth big bucks because there are so many cloned fake SS's out there that are being sold as real ones. :sad:

As long as the real ones are expensive to the point where no body can afford them. There will always be clones and people trying to fake the real ones. I personally cant see paying big bucks for a clone either.

From my limited experience I see many factors, from geographics to drivability, the car is what it is, period. If you get an original car from the southwest you will have a higher "benchmark" in terms of rust and corrosion it may make more sense to restore it to "original" with less effort. I think the younger guys love the retro look but "need" better handling and braking, more horsepower..and so on (sometimes driving mine with its bench seat is like driving a broken couch), bottom line if you love your car it does not matter what the history is. But the dark side show us greed, starting in 69 it became real tough to authenticate a true SS car unless you have a lot of documents or intricate knowledge, It is simply is easier to conterfeit an SS of the 69 and up vintage. The payback can be huge to the unsuspecting buyer, recent auctions and the muscle car craze has shown us all of that, to some it must be like taking candy from a baby. I probably paid to much also and have found things that I would have sworn to be original and were not even close, but I somehow still love the car (and its flaws) and the hobby.

That's two very different topics... One is people having interest in building Clones and the other is people selling clones as true SS cars.


I guess us (the youger guys) are not as nostalgic about these cars as the people who saw them new. To me it doesnt really matter what the car was like when new, but I defenetly care about what it will be when I'm done with it. Personaly if somehow I found out that my shell was a true SS, I would prolly sell it(given that I could find another one) and use that money towards my build.

The other day I was at the track just looking at all the cars there. There was this guy that owned a 1970 chevelle SS appeared to be all original. I asked him if it was a real one and he said yes and said it was all stock. I looked at the car and saw him make a few passes down the 1320 and although his car is prolly worth a lot more than mine will be when it's done I would not trade with him. I have a lot of respect for these cars but I would not own one for practicality's sake.

WHY shouldn't a well-done "clone" be worth close to the value of a "true" SS???

Especially one without its original engine???

How much does this "provenance" really add, and WHY???

I can see sometime really rare/desirable like an LS6 Chevelle Convertible or a Z-16. But why are "original" 325HP cars worth more than an comparible 350HP (or 375 HP) clone?

I can also understand (slightly) where a "matching numbers SS" will be worth a more.

BUT, I can't really understand why some people will pay Big $$$ for a "documented" car that is missing the original engine...

Nothing against those that DO associate more value with the pedigree, just not the way I see things...


I have a clone, and a True SS... I have honestly thought of selling the true SS just to make some money off some poor schmuck that just has to have an "true SS"... And then take my "profit" and build a nice clone...



But back to the original question... In general (there will always be anomolies), a clone Is NOT and will NOT be worth as much as a SIMILAR condition/equipment "True" SS... I agree with the others, that there are many other factors such as geographical location, marketing, and most importantly the quality of the restoration...

Man I'm tired as hell of hearing of people talking down clone cars. I would rather pay good money for a frame off restored clone than top dollar for a ss that doesn't have an original motor or trans or no paper work to prove anything.

Clones suck.:D I'd rather own a plain jane Malibu that has a few go-fast goodies on it. And definitley without the band aid stripes or the "something similar" emblems all over it.

Everyone and their brother has an SS this or an SS that. Even those without licenses probably have SS badges on their Schwinn Stingrays. :clonk:

Many so called "clones" aren't clones at all.
To me, a real clone (exact copy of an original) is just as desirable as an original.

I still think the day is coming when someone says "I have all the documentation" people will think "yeah right, so does everyone else"

I don't know the answer to the original question except some people just have plenty of money to burn I suppose.

This whole numbers matching crowd (fly fisherman) will see how wrong they have been some day.
Like I said in another post the other day "to each his own".
I would never trade my original looking creation car of today for the L78 69 I had 30 years ago...never. I would embarrass any car of its time back then with the Chevelle I have today. It does everything better and is straighter(launching and body).
Eventually the tide will turn (it's happening as we speak). You get BarrettJackson and others on TV giving us Marketing hype praising only numbers matching because it benefits them.
What is a muscle car all about? Muscle. May the best muscle win.
Mu cts-v blows the doors of my buddies L78 69 that was once mine.
My new chevelle drives everywhere and does 10's.
Collect coins flyfishermen. The day is coming.


butternut 69

WHY shouldn't a well-done "clone" be worth close to the value of a "true" SS???

Especially one without its original engine???

How much does this "provenance" really add, and WHY???

I can see sometime really rare/desirable like an LS6 Chevelle Convertible or a Z-16. But why are "original" 325HP cars worth more than an comparible 350HP (or 375 HP) clone?

I can also understand (slightly) where a "matching numbers SS" will be worth a more.

BUT, I can't really understand why some people will pay Big $$$ for a "documented" car that is missing the original engine...

Nothing against those that DO associate more value with the pedigree, just not the way I see things...


I have a clone, and a True SS... I have honestly thought of selling the true SS just to make some money off some poor schmuck that just has to have an "true SS"... And then take my "profit" and build a nice clone...



But back to the original question... In general (there will always be anomolies), a clone Is NOT and will NOT be worth as much as a SIMILAR condition/equipment "True" SS... I agree with the others, that there are many other factors such as geographical location, marketing, and most importantly the quality of the restoration...
answer i was looking for, thanks!

answer i was looking for, thanks!

I am glad someone appreciates my late-night ramblings...:D

i didnt talk down clones, read my post its very short. just curious. i agree that why restore a numbers matching and not drive it(the deep pockets) i would rather build a clone and beat it or drive it than risk ruining a good original. Wrecks, the cooling system that couldnt and cracked an original block, theft all are a reality. Trust me i run a body shop! i also think barret jackson has driven up these cars because of ignorance. people think that just because a 69 z28 with 4 original miles immaculately restored brings mega bucks and their x44 car is worth a fortune. my case in general. i bought my 70 base camaro off ebay for $5500. Put extra $7000 in it and you know the rest. ten years ago people were going to the recycler with these cars. couldnt give them away. now muscle car dreams cause some of us to dip in our 401k. i like clones myself just wondering why clones were worth close to originals. i see your point about good quality restored clones. i might do this with my camaro.

Sorry, I really didn't mean to attack you personally. Your question was clear and I took it for something else and ran with it. I'm just tired of the real or clone thing. I don't consider my car a clone. I love the 70's muscle cars and apparently so does most everbody else. That's why they are worth so much money. It's like anything else in the economy. The more people desire it the more the price is. One thing I really don't understand is the ls6's that are going for 70,000 without the original motor. Isn't that what made an ls6 an ls6? As far as I'm concerned a clone is a car that someone has made to look like an ss and trying to sell it as an ss. I am not doing that so my car is a chevelle that I built how I wanted it. So when someone asks me if it is a real ss I ask them, why are you wanting to buy it. When they say no I say then it really doesn't matter does it? Then I say do you like it? They say yes it's a beautiful car. I say thank you I built it. And they drive off in their minivan.

BUT!!! remember when selling a clone, you must sell it as such. It never was or will be a factory SS car.

BUT!!! remember when selling a clone, you must sell it as such. It never was or will be a factory SS car.

No kidding? Hey are those rims black?

No kidding? Hey are those rims black?
yes

yes

Just yanking your chain. The car is nice.

Just yanking your chain. The car is nice.
thought you were......thanx

Heres the '69 Clone I'm building. And Trust me, for what I have in it, I could have bought a fairly nice real SS driver. But, I wouldn't have near the car that this thing is.

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/dwaynes69bb/69VelleChassis.shtml

Heres the '69 Clone I'm building. And Trust me, for what I have in it, I could have bought a fairly nice real SS driver. But, I wouldn't have near the car that this thing is.

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/dwaynes69bb/69VelleChassis.shtml

Beautiful. Top notch work!!

Well, I just got my 69 Chevelle, I have lusted for one for over 20 years, my dream car is a 69 SS - but I could give a hoot about numbers matching, I just want to drive it! I will probably clone mine slowly and methodically and I expect it will be fun to do with my kid.

Maybe the reason the REAL SS cars are so expensive is because many didn't survive the early years! Seriously, a 325 HP 4-Speed Muncie from the factory? What are the chances that car would live to today with all the original parts? I remember riding around in cars from back then and they weren't that mechanically sound new, then factor in the teenager kid driving mommy and daddy's hot rod.

If you have one of these cars, my hat is off to you!!!!

yeah the real ss cars would get wrecked, stolen, abused, modified. Just look at what most people do with SVT products nowadays. 03-04 cobras are not even 3 years old and finding 100% stock and clean one is not that easy.

Well, I just got my 69 Chevelle, I have lusted for one for over 20 years, my dream car is a 69 SS - but I could give a hoot about numbers matching, I just want to drive it! I will probably clone mine slowly and methodically and I expect it will be fun to do with my kid.

Maybe the reason the REAL SS cars are so expensive is because many didn't survive the early years! Seriously, a 325 HP 4-Speed Muncie from the factory? What are the chances that car would live to today with all the original parts? I remember riding around in cars from back then and they weren't that mechanically sound new, then factor in the teenager kid driving mommy and daddy's hot rod.

If you have one of these cars, my hat is off to you!!!!

Smitty, you're right. Probably not many of the SS's made it all this time without getting torn up. Although my car still has all the original parts except for the battery, exhaust, carburetor and wheels. But I can tell you that the suspension, 400 transmission and rearend, although original, were WORN OUT. 125,000 miles of NEVER changing anything on a car will do that. I actually asked the two previous owners if they were trying to have a contest to see if they could never replace a part. The first owner of the car said he changed the oil religiously, only put two batteries in it and recharged the AC every 3-4 years. The second owner said he hated how quiet it was so he put headers on it. He also said that he needed money to pay off some legal issue so he traded/sold the carb and wheels for a Holley 600 and some mismatched Cragars. Go figure. One of the things I love about these cars is their history. Unfortunately, much of it gets lost over the years.
:beers:
Mike

Although my 70 Chevelle SS is stock as delivered from the factory,
the engine is not the original 350 horse 396 but a low compression 454 crate
motor from Chevrolet. It was this way when I bought it and I could care less.
I prefer the 454 because it hauls ass and runs on the crappy pump gas everyone sells now, and looks correct other than casting numbers. My 69
GTO Judge convertible I have owned for 34 years is a real GTO I made into
a Judge thirty years ago. It looks, tastes and smells like a Judge and is not
so valuable that I am afraid to drive it. Because it is nicer and more loaded with options than all the real Judge convertibles out there it will definitely
bring large bucks when I sell it someday when I am too old to drive it. A car that is flawless and built with NOS parts will always be valuable regardless of its pedigree, but only to someone who is not a "numbers" guy. In my experience "numbers" guys only account for about one third of car enthusiasts. The other two thirds are more concerned with the quality of the
restoration than what the build sheet says. This is why clones can command
serious money. I would rather have a perfect clone LS6 that wins at shows
everywhere it goes than pay more money for a mediocre real one full of rust and bondo. To me it is all about the quality of the car.......don't show me
the build sheet because I frankly don't care what it says. Of course I would
want to know what the car was originally only so I can guage if the price
being paid for it is proper.

So if I take my #'s matching Malie convertable and Cut and paste SS parts on it, Its aTRUE SS ALLRIGHT!! (LOL)

Heres the '69 Clone I'm building. And Trust me, for what I have in it, I could have bought a fairly nice real SS driver. But, I wouldn't have near the car that this thing is.

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/dwaynes69bb/69VelleChassis.shtml

Wow, that is damn nice. Good job.

here is what i did earlier this year. granted not a chevelle but was a 70 mach 1 mustang. i put it on ebay and it didnt sell for crap. later found some history,pulled the marti report. It was a mach 1 with 351 cleveland 4 barrel, 4 speed with shaker hood and fold down rear seat. I had none of this! Car was sold for $9500 as a rolling chassis. Put a good driver quality paint job with almost zero orange peel in original color. The guy was so happy to get it he almost ripped the title from my hand. Amazing what documentation can do for ya. I only give $3500 for the car. Had zero rust though. Spent $1000 in material on paint, thats it! Granted not a clone but to me the car was not worth it. None of the original stuf was there. Do you know how hard a 70 351 cleveland with 4barrel heads is to find? Lets not even get into the shaker hood!

I think what has become abit upsetting, is that a real SS that has had it's motor replaced and no longer has documentation, is now for all intent and purpose a clone.

I am the second owner of a true SS (as described above) 1970 el camino. The engine was replaced before I bought it. I've put the typical small fortune in high end paint, purchased NOS or refurbished the original parts (kept the aftermarket stuff to only what has to be used), and held to the factory specification.

Well, I don't plan on selling it, so basically it's a mute point. But I guess without the DOCs; I've restored an original SS clone.

Heres the '69 Clone I'm building. And Trust me, for what I have in it, I could have bought a fairly nice real SS driver. But, I wouldn't have near the car that this thing is.

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/dwaynes69bb/69VelleChassis.shtmlFrom my perspective, this is the answer to the question. It's because of the quality of restorations these days. The cars are restored so well, they are just plain worth big bucks. Years ago people didn't do as much to their "show" cars. Nowadays ALL these cars are collector quality. A collector quality car with special pedigree will always be worth more, but a exceptional imitation of a highly optioned car, made from the same (expensive and rare) parts, is still a very desireable car.

So if I take my #'s matching Malie convertable and Cut and paste SS parts on it, Its aTRUE SS ALLRIGHT!! (LOL)

If that makes you happy yea do it. But I think your missing the freaking point and not one person has said that putting ss emblems on a car makes it a true ss. Do whatever makes you happy with your car but don't jump in here with your 2 cents if you haven't been reading all the posts.

So if I take my #'s matching Malie convertable and Cut and paste SS parts on it, Its aTRUE SS ALLRIGHT!! (LOL)

LOLOL, It's so funny because that's how so many people think.

I mean, out of the 4 thousand original, REAL 70 LS-5's made, I think there's only 50,000 left........ :sad:

If that makes you happy yea do it. But I think your missing the freaking point and not one person has said that putting ss emblems on a car makes it a true ss. Do whatever makes you happy with your car but don't jump in here with your 2 cents if you haven't been reading all the posts.

APPARENTLY you did not see the LOL :sad:

I dont have to add emblems it a #'s car!

LOLOL, It's so funny because that's how so many people think.

I mean, out of the 4 thousand original, REAL 70 LS-5's made, I think there's only 50,000 left........ :sad:

You guy's are a hoot.

Just bought a 1971 Chevelle Malibu with bucket seats and center console. Car was restored 5 years ago and has 7,000 miles since. Orig 350 was replaced with a crate 383. I wanted a car to drive to local shows and on weekends,etc. I cannot see driving a real SS that costs $30-40,000.

I say if you got the money to do it go for it,
If you got the money to buy one :thumbsup:
If you dont sit at your computer and complain about

Guy 1 makes 10000.00 more for his car
Guy 2 Is happy as hell because he did not spend 20% more for a True car that need work.
Guy 3 sitting at his computer CRYING About it.

WHICH GUY ARE YOU?

I say if you got the money to do it go for it,
If you got the money to buy one :thumbsup:
If you dont sit at your computer and complain about

Guy 1 makes 10000.00 more for his car
Guy 2 Is happy as hell because he did not spend 20% more for a True car that need work.
Guy 3 sitting at his computer CRYING About it.

WHICH GUY ARE YOU?

LOL,

Guy 4 Is happy as hell I bought a complete, documented, REAL 70 LS-5 for $2200 in 1987. Back When SS's were actually few and far between(Along with Hemi cars). Somewhat like BC and AD, that time period is referred to as BF, (Before Fakes)

LOL,

Guy 4 Is happy as hell I bought a complete, documented, REAL 70 LS-5 for $2200 in 1987. Back When SS's were actually few and far between(Along with Hemi cars). Somewhat like BC and AD, that time period is referred to as BF, (Before Fakes)

You got that wrong BE (Berore E-Bay)

COOL deal, is it a smoking heap in your back yard,Parts pile in your garage,Or restored?

You got that wrong BE (Berore E-Bay)
COOL deal, is it a smoking heap in your back yard,Parts pile in your garage,Or restored?


BE.......ROFLMMFAO..........
You nailed it.
As for the car.
The car isn't too bad. Here's a pic from when I parked it about three years ago.
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/medium/Chevelle_small.jpg
The only other pics I have of it now are with snow and debris on it.
I took out the original engine and trans and crated them up in my garage. I was thinking I would save the engine and trans and just quickly build up a new engine and trans for it. HAHAHAHAHAHA..........so it sits, collecting snow in the driveway.
Hopefully, I'll get it running this year.............HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You know how that goes.
:)
Mike

Nice ride!
HAY is that a FORDnext to it!

Nice ride!
HAY is that a FORDnext to it!

Thanks, LOL. Yeah, that was my sisters 64 Ford that I was working on. It was a neat car. It had a really small V8 like 260-270ci but it would roll 120mph all day long on the e-way without breaking a sweat.
:)
Mike

I found this discussion very interesting, As I will be looking to buy a 70 SS some time soon. If I was buying for investment sake alone ? I would probably pay the big money for a 100% correct, all numbers matching, fully documented, authentic and beautifully restored, loaded LS6 or L78. But as I'm not Rupert bloody Murdoch ! and I also want to drive the crap out of it ! I'll have to settle for an undocumented non numbers matching car that's had a nice restoration and has all the SS goodies added.
(a clone) Now to me, I can't see any difference ? If I can't tell for sure that it is ? or it isn't ? and the money's right then who really cares ? If you can prove a cars pedigree without doubt then it's worth the extra $ as an investment, but how many really can ? a good clone is better than a rust bucket real ss full of bondo with a paintjob to me, maybe not everyone ?
So I'm keeping away from cars that have claims of matching numbers, original build sheets, (funny how many have been discovered lately) and all correct, yeah right ! Tell it to the judge ! I'm now more intersested in the quality of body, paint and mechanical workmanship that's gone into it. So that's what makes them worth so much money, the only real difference is a peice of paper and a few parts that have numbers cast and or stamped into them.
Dave

All things being equal, I would think a non numbers matching documented SS car would be more valuable than a clone of similar build. Thats why I own a 68. No question of it's pedigree. JMHO.

It's all preference and bragging rights, though I don't really see how a numbers car owner could brag, unless they wanted a museum piece.

Theoretically, take 2 identically restored cars. One's a documented SS, and one's a Malibu with SS goodies installed. The cars are identical in every respect.

What would you rather spend your money on? $40K+ for the original, or $20K for the "clone"?

So what do you want to do? Drive your car, or look at it?

Cut and dried, folks. If you want a true SS you'll fork out the cash. If you want THE SAME CAR for less money, you'll get a "clone". Guess what? Being that it's the SAME CAR, a clone's price will rise proportionately to a true SS car.

If you just want muscle and to go fast, drop a big motor in a '79 Cutlass or something for cheaper than either.

"I would think a non numbers matching documented SS car would be more valuable than a clone of similar build."

That is just proving what the car "was" w/o all the correct parts it's a "clone".
I can buy all the 138 vin and body tags I want to make any 68 a SS.
Ya cant have it both ways.............JMHO
I would only buy a car for the quality because all these doc's can be forged, look what it takes to forge money $$, ya think forging a car & papers would be a challenge for someone who can do that?.........not!
I say buy the car for what it is,(quality, fit, finish, options) not what you want/wish it to be.

T.C.

"I would think a non numbers matching documented SS car would be more valuable than a clone of similar build."

That is just proving what the car "was" w/o all the correct parts it's a "clone".
I can buy all the 138 vin and body tags I want to make any 68 a SS.
Ya cant have it both ways.............JMHO
I would only buy a car for the quality because all these doc's can be forged, look what it takes to forge money $$, ya think forging a car & papers would be a challenge for someone who can do that?.........not!
I say buy the car for what it is,(quality, fit, finish, options) not what you want/wish it to be.

T.C.
another respectable answer. but you can sometimes by aging of the paperwork that its not forged. I have never understood to why buy a non-matching car put thousands into it and not drive the thing. Its still not numbers matching no matter what.

That is just proving what the car "was" w/o all the correct parts it's a "clone".
I can buy all the 138 vin and body tags I want to make any 68 a SS.
Ya cant have it both ways.............JMHO
I would only buy a car for the quality because all these doc's can be forged, look what it takes to forge money $$, ya think forging a car & papers would be a challenge for someone who can do that?.........not!
I say buy the car for what it is,(quality, fit, finish, options) not what you want/wish it to be.

T.C.

So what you are saying is that taking a 138 car that lost the original engine somewhere over 40 years and replacing it with a replacement engine of the same displacement makes it a clone????

My car is #s matching & documented. Doesn't stop me from driving it though.

Yes kinda, it doesn't have the original motor, so you are cloning the motor aren't you?
Where does cloning start and stop?
It starts with the motor then the trans then the rear then gauges ect,ect,ect.
Where does the line get drawn, is my point?
Lets say a person who bought a car in 69 forgot to add the "SS" option or the dealer lost the order, it's just an option is it all rite to add it?
T.C.

So what you are saying is that taking a 138 car that lost the original engine somewhere over 40 years and replacing it with a replacement engine of the same displacement makes it a clone????

To me, No it doesn't make it a clone but it doesn't make it worth much more than a good clone to me. That is just me. What I'm saying is if I'm paying big money it better be #s matching. If it isn't I'm not paying anymore than I would for a good clone. Again that's my opinion.

If you just want muscle and to go fast, drop a big motor in a '79 Cutlass.

What about when you want muscle with style?

What about when you want muscle with style?

Then of course, you'll probably pay! But everyone's opinion of style is different of course. ;)

Also IMO, if a true SS car doesn't have the original motor, of course it's not automatically a clone. It's an SS car with a NOM. But, I wouldn't expect it to "command" (I like that word :) ) a matching numbers car price, because it couldn't ever be a "museum piece".

Interesting discussion. My '67SS was bought in '85 with no motor. I have installed a built 454 vs the 396 because in my thinking the 454 is a better engine and the 396 wouldn't be original to the car anyway. Original size but not the original engine. If you like a car and like the price, buy it is what I say. Tooooooo many "investors" out there. Lots of talk on this thread about not having the original engine that was factory installed bringing lower prices. I disagree to some extent. I would agree with the statements that it all comes down to quality of the restoration. Even on BJ action, a clone 426 Hemi car in excellent condition brings more than an "original" in some cases. Many other examples of this also. How many cars, take my '67 for example, that is 40 years old still have ALL the original sheetmetal (no patch panels), interior pieces, trim, lenses, engine and drivetrain including all accessories, exhaust, and paint? and still looks good? That is a funny question. Give me a break. Probably way less than 1% are true "survivor" cars which are the ONLY in my opinion truly "original" cars. Am I tickled I have a 138 car? Darn tooting. If I didn't, would having a nicely done clone make a difference to me? Nope. Just wanted to add some fuel to a great discussion.
Herb

Why are clones worth big bucks? Interesting discussion. My 2 cents:

They're worth big bucks because most of them have been fully restored with desirable parts and are usually mechanically perfect. Althought they will never be worth as much as a true SS in comparable condition, they are still near perfect copies of highly desirable cars. They are the sum of their parts, which I'm sure most of you know aren't cheap.

I'm in the process of cloning a 67 SS right now. My reasons? Not to make huge money on resale, or to fool the uninformed. I want the car I desired in my youth, but couldn't afford until my later years, when the house was bought and the kids were out of school. I wanted the car that put a big lump in my throat and a bigger one in my pants. I also want a car that will start on a cold morning and stop straight when you stand on the brakes, and I wont be afraid to modify for fear of ruining my investment. Although I appreciate and admire the real matching numbers cars, these days those cars are out of reach of the average Joe. The clones are just keeping pace.

The clones are worth big bucks because most of them are still great cars.

I think it's sometimes a case of not where we are, but how we got there as far as the cloned car is concerned. I've got 2........... a '68 427 Biscayne, built from a 6 cyl car, and a '64 Ford Thunderbolt clone project. In the case of the Biscayne (I particularly like the fact that the Vin number discloses it as a 6 cyl, so there can never be any misunderstanding) it got to be a fascinating challenge to see how much correct and questionable equipment I could ad to it. A Chevy dealer with an old book told me that it was theoretically possible to order bucket seats and vinyl interior in a Biscayne, and that he in fact did it in some 427 Biscaynes in about 69 for a police department, along with 3 on the tree. So............ I put bucket seats from a SS in mine and had Ciadello built a Biscayne rear cover that matched it. I love for the "experts" at the car shows to debate the possibility. It's also got a 140 MPH speedo from a Police Car, and far as I know that wasn't an option with the engine either, but again it's entertaining to listen to the comments.

The point in all this is, doing all this stuff to a high quality standard is expensive, and there are people around who can see/appreciate the money and effort expended, and if the finished product is good, they're willing to pay for it. Clones aren't always dead original, but in some cases they're more like what in the builder's eyes the factory coulda'/ shoulda' done without production and government restrictions. It's a very entertaining aspect of the hobby IMO.

Why are clones worth big bucks? Interesting discussion. My 2 cents:

They're worth big bucks because most of them have been fully restored with desirable parts and are usually mechanically perfect. Althought they will never be worth as much as a true SS in comparable condition, they are still near perfect copies of highly desirable cars. They are the sum of their parts, which I'm sure most of you know aren't cheap.

The clones are worth big bucks because most of them are still great cars.

sums it up for me !

Dave

They are the sum of their parts, which I'm sure most of you know aren't cheap.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I would rather put 20 to 30 thousand dollars into one of these cars than into a new model. It would be nice to have an SS but not absolutely necessary.

This is a great discussion - I sold a documented 70 LS6 (POP, build, etc.) about 4 years ago because it was a documented, complete car with a long history (I talked to all of the previous owners). The more I found out about the car, the less I found I wanted to drive it for fear of breaking something that would be difficult to replace and afterward, not original. I couldn't park it at the supermarket, drive it to work, or leave it anywhere for fear it would get hit, stolen, rained on, etc. Finally I got to the point where the car was just an expensive garage ornament (that only I cared was original among all my acquaintances and friends) - so away it went. Sadly, I sold it before the recent major run-up in LS6 prices, but other than the cash I could have made, I don't miss the car for a minute.

My new 71 is a clone, and I am happy it is. I'm building it the way I want it, driving it everywhere, leaving it at the supermarket, and generally driving it as it was meant to be driven. For better or worse, I will have more money in this clone than I paid for the LS6 back in ~2000, but I'll be spending the money to put a smile on my face when I mash the gas...not to sit in the backyard and stare at my museum piece. I know I am not alone, and I think that is why great clones are going for good money...done right, the quality is better than the factory and you can drive the hell out of your expensive toy without worry.

YMMV, and I know some people still drive the snot out of their Yenkos, COPOs and LS6s, but those days are dwindling...