My daughter's Ranger pickup just wouldn't start after work. I was able to push-start her (5-speed manual) and get the truck to my house. Pulled the starter (which I had replaced about a year ago), and took it to NAPA who said it tested fine. I re-installed the starter, checking all connections. I replaced the big relay inside the engine compartment, no difference.

Symptoms: Turn the key and the relay knocks loud, and the solenoid clicks (although it doesn't go clickity-clickity... just CLICK). Under the truck (it's freaking cold outside by the way), I got 12 V to the starter at the BAT connection continuous, and got voltage to the S-connector only when the key was in the start position. I don't remember the S-connector voltage because we weren't thinking it was a voltage drop at the time. Starter is grounded. Running a wire from the Battery positive to the BAT on the relay makes the same sounds exactly, but not starter. Jumpering the relay connectors makes the exact same sounds, but no starter. Battery is good as far as I know, I can't jump the car and make the starter turn, but I cleaned and re-connected the battery terminals anyway.

It's as if the starter is the only thing not working, and so it must be a voltage drop problem, correct? Can I check the voltage during cranking at the battery or one of the relay posts, or do I have to get under the car again (which I'm reluctant to do in the snow)?

Battery cables?

Bout the only thing I can think of that it can be is the starter or the neg. battery cable/connections.

My sister’s explorer did the same thing and it was the relay under the hood. I just switch the heater relay and it started fine (it was July)
Does this truck have an external solenoid?

Battery cables?

Bout the only thing I can think of that it can be is the starter or the neg. battery cable/connections.

I thought of that, which is why I cleaned off the battery connections. I guess I could connect a jumper cable from the battery (-) to the starter case, and also jumper directly from the battery (+) to the BAT terminal on the starter. That would pretty much eliminate the cables as the problem wouldn't it? :confused:

My sister’s explorer did the same thing and it was the relay under the hood. I just switch the heater relay and it started fine (it was July)
Does this truck have an external solenoid?I also swapped a couple relays inside the power distribution box inside the engine compartment. I can't remember if I did the heater relay for sure. I guess I can check that and get back to you. I was pretty sure that I'd ruled out the power distribution relays.

And Yes, I believe that the remote solenoid you're referring to is the thing I'm calling a "relay" on the fender well insde the engine compartment. I changed that out with a brand new one from NAPA. I did have to grind off a plastic tang to get the connector to fit properly (the relay/solenoid comes with "spacers" if you use the connector found on Rangers). I am positive I got the terminals hooked up correctly, and have double-checked this using the diagrams in a Haynes Manual and what came with the new relay/solenoid.

I'm thinking the NAPA guys were messing with my daughter (she took it in to be checked), or maybe they held the starter at just the right angle and it fired.

I just thought of something. If the (EDIT: THE STARTER GEAR, not the solenoid like I posted earlier... ) was moving forward, but did NOT engage the flywheel teeth (like, the starter gear just hit the flywheel, but the teeth don't mesh), then it's possible the (EDIT: STARTER GEAR again) doesn't move enough for the starter contacts to be made. Is this plausible at all? Maybe I could rock the truck while in gear and get the teeth to mesh?

Isn't the solenoid on the fender, not on the starter.
All ford starters I've messed with just have a bendix spring type drive.

If the starer still doesn't work when jumpering the two big posts on the solenoid, that would eleminate all relays/controls being the problem.

In my first reply I assumed a good - fully charged battery.
If I were doing it I would probably switch the battery with another known good one, then replace the starter if it still had the same symptoms.

All due respects to the boys at NAPA but their test probably doesn't take into account intermittent problems,
Sometimes hitting or jaring a starter can make it work several times.
Do they test it "no load" or do they put a load on it?

I have seen Fords do this. Both times it was the Pos. cable from the Battery or solonoid to the starter. The way that I diagnosed this was to use a digital volt meter and test the Pos. cable connection at the starter end of the cable during "crank", If you see a significant voltage drop, then you know it is the cable. I found both the ones I fixed to have corrosion inside the covering(not visible from the outside)Good luck

I certainly don’t want to start a war but Napa electrical automotive parts and I don’t get along at all.

I have seen Fords do this. Both times it was the Pos. cable from the Battery or solonoid to the starter. The way that I diagnosed this was to use a digital volt meter and test the Pos. cable connection at the starter end of the cable during "crank", If you see a significant voltage drop, then you know it is the cable. I found both the ones I fixed to have corrosion inside the covering(not visible from the outside)Good luck Yes, I'm thinling along these lines too. I should have measured the voltage drop while trying to crank. Now there's 8 inches of snow and 40 mph winds outside. I'll jus think about this tonight :D. Bypassing the (+) cable with a jumper cable should also work if I understand.

Isn't the solenoid on the fender, not on the starter.
All ford starters I've messed with just have a bendix spring type drive.

All due respects to the boys at NAPA but their test probably doesn't take into account intermittent problems,
Sometimes hitting or jaring a starter can make it work several times.
Do they test it "no load" or do they put a load on it?Well, I'm not a Ford guy but it seems like this solenoid on the fender, is sometimes called a relay.... at least that's what the Ford manual calls it, and the guys at NAPA called it. The starter ALSO has what LOOKS like a regular solenoid attached to it, with a BAT term, an S term, and a small braided wire that goes into the starter motor. I'm no expert. I know that when people talk about putting a "Ford solenoid" on their GM starters, they are really talking about putting this fender-mounted "thing".

I'm sure they only tested it "no load" like I said I wasn't there. And yes, I've had problems with NAPA electrical, and all the other local parts stores. I had a huge war with autozone when one of their alternators was putting out 12.8 volts, but only about 5 AMPs (I was able to show him the blown diodes). They only measured the volts and told me it was "within specs". It's the only time I EVER made a scene in a parts store.

Thanks for the suggestions :thumbsup: I'll have to get after this tomorrow as tonight I'm spent.

EDIT: I have to qualify the "Ford-guy" thing... I did just (last week) 'inherit' a 67 'Stang so I'll be learning a little Ford stuff too.

Just my .02, but I had the EXACT same thing happen with the starter in my 65 mustang I had. Same wiring configuration. Replaced the Solenoid..."click". Replaced the battery cables...."click". Pulled said starter and had NAPA check it to be OK...."click". Threw hammer through drywall in disgust and bought new starter. "Vrrrruuuuummmmmmm". Drove mustang to Lowe's to buy new drywall patch and return core starter to NAPA.
Then about 1 month later I had a 67 mustang and the exact same thing happened again. looked at hammer, decided to just buy a new starter. Bingo. Hope that helps and best of luck.

Cheers

Now there's 8 inches of snow and 40 mph winds outside. I'll jus think about this tonight :D. Bypassing the (+) cable with a jumper cable should also work if I understand.

Dang, I hope that mess doesn't make it this far south!!
When you're able to get back to the truck, try this-connect one end of the jumper cable to one of the big posts on the starter solenoid, connect the other end to the other post. OR use a big screwdriver to jump the posts. You should get a big spark and the starter should turn over. If it doesn't spark, then it's a bad cable from the battery or weak battery. If it sparks but doesn't turn, then it's a bad starter or bad cable from the solenoid to the starter. Stay warm!! :D

BillL

It's the only time I EVER made a scene in a parts store.

Yeah, but you should have made a scene at the Bartlett NAPA store! :D :waving:

BillL

When you're able to get back to the truck, try this-connect one end of the jumper cable to one of the big posts on the starter solenoid, connect the other end to the other post. OR use a big screwdriver to jump the posts. You should get a big spark and the starter should turn over. If it doesn't spark, then it's a bad cable from the battery or weak battery. If it sparks but doesn't turn, then it's a bad starter or bad cable from the solenoid to the starter. Stay warm!! :D BillLHey Bill, I already did this. It sparked. Nice loud click. no starter motor. Thanks! I'm warm as long as I'm in here typing!

Pulled said starter and had NAPA check it to be OK...."click". Threw hammer through drywall in disgust and bought new starter. "Vrrrruuuuummmmmmm". Yep, my money is on the starter being bad. When you send a pretty blonde 23-year-old into NAPA asking them to test a starter, they may not have been paying attention to the problem at hand. You'll have to give me pointers on the 67 resto. I seriously know nothing about Fords.

Yeah, but you should have made a scene at the Bartlett NAPA store! :D :waving: BillL It was way more funny watching Bob get all red-faced... :mad: (he he he).

Well, I'm not a Ford guy but it seems like this solenoid on the fender, is sometimes called a relay.... at least that's what the Ford manual calls it, and the guys at NAPA called it. The starter ALSO has what LOOKS like a regular solenoid attached to it, with a BAT term, an S term, and a small braided wire that goes into the starter motor.

OK then it IS different than the old ford starters that I'm familiar with, they had no solenoid on the starter itself.

Good luck

Dang, I hope that mess doesn't make it this far south!!
When you're able to get back to the truck, try this-connect one end of the jumper cable to one of the big posts on the starter solenoid, connect the other end to the other post. OR use a big screwdriver to jump the posts. You should get a big spark and the starter should turn over. If it doesn't spark, then it's a bad cable from the battery or weak battery. If it sparks but doesn't turn, then it's a bad starter or bad cable from the solenoid to the starter. Stay warm!! :D

BillL

Just use a pair of pliers to bridge between the two main posts on the fender mounted solenoid. (You'll play hell doing that with a screwdriver:) ) If that cranks the engine you have eliminated the starter as the problem. You then have to look at the innards of the fender mounted solenoid AND the associated "pull in" wiring that actuates the solenoid.

If bridging the solenoid fails to activate the starter then you have a bad starter OR bad cables.

Does it look like this one?? If it does, that hump's not a solenoid.
BillL

Does it look like this one?? If it does, that hump's not a solenoid.
BillL

I was hoping someone would post a pic like that. Inside that tin cover is the starter bendix pullin assembly AND the two BIG contacts that come together to power the starter brushes. Its entirely possible that that connection is not being made under that cover. Possible causes: bad battery cables ( not enough voltage to pull the bendix down and connect the contacts.), Bad contacts, burnt or corroded ( no voltage to magnetize the bendix), Bad solenoid etc......I am sure you get the idea now about all of the things you need to look at to diagnose your particular problem after all these posts.

Good luck :)

Here in Southern California.........ah...never mind.

If you can get a GOOD connection using a cable, then YES it will tell you the same answer as using a volt meter .

Ford has been using the solenoid on the starter for many years now. But they do still have the relay under the hood. I have seen quite a few Fords not want to start because of the small connection on the starter solenoid itself that just pushes on. Not held down by an eyelet and nut to hold the electrical connection down. This is a type or push on connection and it can and does get loose at times. Just something to check on.

Does it look like this one?? If it does, that hump's not a solenoid.
BillL

Nope, mine looks just like a solenoid. Seperate cylinder, smaller... basically it looks like they have gone to the same set up as the tech article here on TC. (http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ftecref4.html) It LOOKS like the solenoid is "jumpered" from the BAT connection to the "S" terminal by running heavy wires (10g?) all the way back and forth to the relay/solenoid on the fender. That seems excessive. Maybe I'm missing something.

......I am sure you get the idea now about all of the things you need to look at to diagnose your particular problem after all these posts. I love this site!:D (it's not even a chevelle question!)

If you can get a GOOD connection using a cable, then YES it will tell you the same answer as using a volt meter .Point taken.. I do have a GOOD set of jumper cables.

I have seen quite a few Fords not want to start because of the small connection on the starter solenoid itself that just pushes on. Not held down by an eyelet and nut to hold the electrical connection down. Hmmmm. OK the solenoid on the fender right? Yes that little connector was the first thing I checked. It looked clean and seemed to push on and make a fairly tight connection. What's that wire for anyway? I was guessing it ran to the clutch switch. IF it's for the clutch switch and it was bad, I don't think the fender relay/solenoid or starter-mounted-solenoid would "click" at all. (It would be like trying to start the truck without pushing in on the clutch).

THANKS everybody! Looks like we ended up with about 14 inches of snow. That was my first "blizzard" and now school's cancelled. I get to stay home! So I'm gonna find a hill, and get inside my cement-mixing tub for some fun. :clonk:

Hmmmm. OK the solenoid on the fender right? Yes that little connector was the first thing I checked. It looked clean and seemed to push on and make a fairly tight connection. What's that wire for anyway? I was guessing it ran to the clutch switch. :


If you are referring to the little wire that attaches to the solenoid on the battery side of the solenoid I would assume that it was the power wire to the "pull in" portion of the solenoid. It should lite a test lite when the ignition key is in the "start" position only. It probably does run thru the "Clutch switch" too but it begins at the ignition switch so you'd have to check all of its connections. You can diagnose the solenoid quickly however. Just run a jumper from the + battery to that terminal and see if the solenoid will engage. If it does then start going up stream to the clutch switch with a test light.

Battery cables?

I have seen Fords do this. Both times it was the Pos. cable from the Battery or solonoid to the starter. The way that I diagnosed this was to use a digital volt meter and test the Pos. cable connection at the starter end of the cable during "crank", If you see a significant voltage drop, then you know it is the cable. I found both the ones I fixed to have corrosion inside the covering(not visible from the outside)Good luck

:hurray:The first reply by DG was correct, and tech396 nailed it. It was the Positive battery cable. While "cranking" I measured a voltage drop from 12.8 to 0.3 Volts at the starter. At the battery terminal, by sticking my probe through the insulation just outside the terminal (it again dropped to 0.3 V) I could tell the resistance was inside the terminal itself. SO as a TEMPORARY check to see if that was the problem, I drilled and screwed a sheet metal screw through the lead and into the wire (see image). The truck started right up. So we are off to get a new terminal and cable eyelets and fix this problem correctly.

I just can't say enough about how terrific this website is, and how remarkable the members are. :beers:In large part I'm sure, to the particularly exceptional job that ALL the moderators do. THANK-YOU all for suggesting, explaining, encouraging, and teaching. :thumbsup:

But in your first post you said
"I got 12 V to the starter at the BAT connection continuous"

:confused:

Sorry about the confusion, it was continuous as in ALWAYS ON. The big cable at the starter was 12V, without turning the key. The smaller cable was only 12V when the key is in the start position. What I had not measured was the voltage drop during cranking. The big cable voltage dropped to 0.3 only when I turned the key i.e put a load on the circuit.