I'd like to solicit some opinions and experiences in the various Anti-Roll Bar systems. A purchase will be forthcoming, probably within a week. I have researched myself into delirium, I think I need to evaluate more word of mouth.

I have addressed this issue with more than a few TCer's, most agreeing that 11 seconds is the threshold for "factoryish" rear suspension, with or without various relocation aids.

The consensus, quicker E.T.'s require reverting to original geometry, enlisting one of a few proven anti-roll systems, then blow a wad on springs and shocks.

This was my quest at SEMA, see what was out there. My findings....NOT MUCH. I can honestly say the only new offering I found was Hotchkis' Extreme, which was also included on Erics '72 Optima makeover. This is a compromised version of HRParts Anti-Roll Bar, but uses 3" links to the forward swaybar hole of the LCA's.

I'd like to think the procrastination period has past. I've followed related threads, spent hours reading posts through the search feature and, for the moment, have a couple of bucks in my pocket, as well as, the motivation to pursue my Anti-Roll aspirations. BUT, the window is shrinking, the closer it gets to Christmas, the more I will be stripped of these resources.

I really, really would like someone to share a detailed description of the parts included in an Alf Wiebe set up (preferably with pictures), despite knowing this will not be one of my considerations. My '66 is a street car first and foremost, plenty has been typed to disuade any intention of use on the street. Still, I'd like to be enlightened to the approach and engineering involved. I was under the impression that this system revolved around Anti-Roll Bar innovation, but information found through search (ski.dwn.it), leads me to believe advantages derive from springs primarily.

WolfRaceCraft and Dick Miller systems appear incompatible with 3" exhaust run to the bumper. Although one mounts their torsion bar forward and the other aft of the axle, both use supports welded between the frame rails and arms are linked to tabs on the axle itself. I may be way off here, but my interpretation of the mechanical action, appears to introduce squat rather than lift (atleast on the aft mounted bar). I know that both have been wildly successful, I just don't think either is right for my application.

I lean towards HRParts, although kjett posted little difference between that and his factory sway bar configuration. I understand that the front end rate of travel will affect weight transfer and therefore traction. My front end is quick to rise, with borderline excessive travel. Probably the single most issue will be choice of a "track dedicated" tire. Currently E.T. Streets tops the list. I am pursuing some info on new Goodyear's discovered at SEMA, but just now hitting the market. For the time being, DOT type will be best.

And for cryin' out loud, I'm expecting to be typed into a decision, not out of one......I want to see the salesman in ya.

Alfes design is basically a ladder bar type suspension. The axle is used as the anti roll with adjustable preload in (1) control arm. It eliminates the upper control arms, eliminating 1 of the 2 different axis the rearend is connected to in factory form.

You wont get any pictures from the internet. It could be duplicated, however time in fab, jigs and spring rates your patience or pocket book will expire before achieving satisfying results. Alfes system starts with a clean sheet of paper, nothing is factory but the mounting points.

Either way you need to "blow a wad" on springs and shocks! if you want results close to Alfes suspension.

I'm not sure exactly about KJ's set up but I think he was using tubular A arms up front also with coil overs and it didnt have the travel needed for weight transfer at our power level. There is no such thing as excessive travel up front until you start dipping into the mid 9's as Todd has done, you need all the weight transfer you can get but it needs to be at a controlled rate and not rise too quickly. Stiff rear settings (can be controlled by shocks), antiroll to keep it level and apply equal traction to both rear tires, plenty of weight transfer and Hoosier radial slicks ;)

You may consider one of thease (http://www.appliedracing.com/pages/products/suspension_components/Anti-roll_bars/018951.html)Anti Rolls from A.R.T. the bar itself is shorter than the Wolfe/Miller ones, it may give you some flexibility as far as mounting.

If your car primarily street then HRP will give you the results the same as all the other true anti roll bars WITH the exhaust clearance and or need to cut into trunk space to install ..... my experience is it really makes the car leave straight ......no need for air bags etc ....as far as traction you still need to tune the shocks/ springs and front susp travel settings .I have seen Alf's set up and considered it for my car but no way it really livable for a true street car ........BTW are we talking Auto or manual trans car

So much mentioned about Alf, so little info available. The curiosity was killing me, thanks for the insight. It still would be nice if someone in the know or possession of the hardware would post up some pic's. Duplication of said system is not my motive, like I said, simply after the knowledge and theory aspect.

I will check the above A.R.T. link, Thanks

CDN SS,
Would have liked to met up while you were in Vegas. I dig your '66 and would have liked to shared a little dialog over a beer or 6.....

I have a COAN Extreme Street/Strip TH400 w/ 10" special built 3500 stall. No TransBrake. !2 bolt posi 3.55. Edelbrock adjustable uppers, triangle braces, lift bars (relocated lowers), 1" rear sway. Currently Mickey Thompson Indy Profile SS L60-15, previously NITTO 555R 275/60/15.

M/T's provided best E.T. to date 10.942 @ 126.9 mph, 1.75 60' (aberation, can not duplicate). 7.0083 1/8 @ 101. This was the only run of the night. Next best, 11.04 @ 125.87 mph

My trips down the track have been limited, trying to sort things out have resulted in 12.3 (very first outting in June, lot's of issues still), 11.641, 11.888last week. 60' from 2.143-2.286, 1/8 ranged from 7.713 to 8.108, mph 99.38-101/124.65-125.9.

MPH is indicative of reasonable expectaions of mid 10's. NOT going to happen until I can cut my 60' to 1.5 neighborhood. I should be seeing high 6 1/8's.

Tires would probably be the most productive initial purchase. At this point, I want a tire that I can drive to the track, as sub 11.49's won't be compatible with outtings other than Wednesday Nite Street Wars and Friday Nite Midnight Mayhems which the 10.942 and 11.04 were run respectively, both without any mention of booting me from the track. My trips have been spontaneous and solo, swapping wheels at the track is not an option, no one to babysit. I have an extra set of 15" X 8" Welds with 5.5 BS (4.5 BS on the car now). Looking like M/T ET Streets so far.

I'm running a 540 in my 67 (660hp & 700ft.lbs). The two best things I have done for my heavy car is stiff sidewall slicks (Hoosiers) and a HRParts antiroll bar. It has my car leaving straight and level and my 60ft times are within thousanths each pass. In the rear, I'm running SSM lower bars, Metco upper bars, QA1 single adjustables, triagulation braces, 3.73 gears and the antiroll bar (no bags needed). Up front, it's three way adjustable shocks set at 70/30 and no sway bar.

A tire change would be a big improvment for you even with no suspension changes (I'm suprised you can get a 1.75 60ft with a Indy Profile M/T). A DOT radial such as the M/T E/T Street Radial would probably be your best bet if your still want to drive to the track with no tire change at the track.

Matchgrade, your suspension is almost identical to mine except I'm using KONI street adjustables up front, set on full soft. Best 60ft to date is 1.402. You're right about a stiff sidewall slick/tire, makes all the difference in the world when you're making some power.

[QUOTE=Matchgrade;

A tire change would be a big improvment for you even with no suspension changes (I'm suprised you can get a 1.75 60ft with a Indy Profile M/T). A DOT radial such as the M/T E/T Street Radial would probably be your best bet if your still want to drive to the track with no tire change at the track.[/QUOTE]

I assume these would be one and the same as M/T Drag Radials, I certainly hope they are better than the NITTO's, cuz they suck. As I understand, footbraked launches prefer the stiff walled radials, moreso than transbraked, even in regular slicks.

I was under the car a little while ago, checking out the available space around my 3" exhaust. Can I get any of you guys to measure the HRParts bar itself for me. In particular, the width between the forward extending arms and the length to which they extend.

I would greatly appreciate it.

About 34" wide and forward arms about 9-10".

Thanks Bob, tell me, did you know this off hand, or did you have to go measure it?

If the latter, you did so rather quickly. Bet it was cold too, Missouri and all. Should I be thanking you or you thanking me. Did I provide an "easy out" of the house? You don't have annoying company staying over the long weekend, do you? Just thinking out loud, I know I could certainly use an excuse to get away from my Ma-in-law.

Thanks again

No guests, its 55* right now @ 9:45, cold front coming next week, and car is in the garage, ran out and made a quick measurement. Now you have an excuse to go out and see if it will clear your exhaust ;)

I certainly hope they are better than the NITTO's, cuz they suck.

No comparison. MT ET Drag Radials HOOK!

Mark

I have 3" exhaust with full tailpipes in stock location and they clear .close but they clear I'm using HRP upper and lower adj control arms with factory triangular braces and the HRP anti roll bar ......... soft coils and QA1 adj on stiff .I think #8 right now

Link to pic before exhaust installed ....http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/showphoto.php/photo/4246/cat/500

Rowdy .yes too bad did not have more time in Vegas to get away but there on biz ......took some cust to Petty Driving experience and then found the drag strip close by so got to watch some Pro Comp and SS qualifying Sat AM ....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to solicit some opinions and experiences in the various Anti-Roll Bar systems. A purchase will be forthcoming, probably within a week. I have researched myself into delirium, I think I need to evaluate more word of mouth.

I have addressed this issue with more than a few TCer's, most agreeing that 11 seconds is the threshold for "factoryish" rear suspension, with or without various relocation aids.

The consensus, quicker E.T.'s require reverting to original geometry, enlisting one of a few proven anti-roll systems, then blow a wad on springs and shocks.

This was my quest at SEMA, see what was out there. My findings....NOT MUCH. I can honestly say the only new offering I found was Hotchkis' Extreme, which was also included on Erics '72 Optima makeover. This is a compromised version of HRParts Anti-Roll Bar, but uses 3" links to the forward swaybar hole of the LCA's.

I'd like to think the procrastination period has past. I've followed related threads, spent hours reading posts through the search feature and, for the moment, have a couple of bucks in my pocket, as well as, the motivation to pursue my Anti-Roll aspirations. BUT, the window is shrinking, the closer it gets to Christmas, the more I will be stripped of these resources.

I really, really would like someone to share a detailed description of the parts included in an Alf Wiebe set up (preferably with pictures), despite knowing this will not be one of my considerations. My '66 is a street car first and foremost, plenty has been typed to disuade any intention of use on the street. Still, I'd like to be enlightened to the approach and engineering involved. I was under the impression that this system revolved around Anti-Roll Bar innovation, but information found through search (ski.dwn.it), leads me to believe advantages derive from springs primarily.

WolfRaceCraft and Dick Miller systems appear incompatible with 3" exhaust run to the bumper. Although one mounts their torsion bar forward and the other aft of the axle, both use supports welded between the frame rails and arms are linked to tabs on the axle itself. I may be way off here, but my interpretation of the mechanical action, appears to introduce squat rather than lift (atleast on the aft mounted bar). I know that both have been wildly successful, I just don't think either is right for my application.

I lean towards HRParts, although kjett posted little difference between that and his factory sway bar configuration. I understand that the front end rate of travel will affect weight transfer and therefore traction. My front end is quick to rise, with borderline excessive travel. Probably the single most issue will be choice of a "track dedicated" tire. Currently E.T. Streets tops the list. I am pursuing some info on new Goodyear's discovered at SEMA, but just now hitting the market. For the time being, DOT type will be best.

And for cryin' out loud, I'm expecting to be typed into a decision, not out of one......I want to see the salesman in ya.
__________________
Rowdy
'66 Malibu 540cid 753.8hp 678.4tq


I really cannot help with the rear suspension questions, I just wanted to comment on the excellent organization/presentation of your thoughts. You have at least one (and maybe more) English teacher to thank. Again, just wanted to congratulate you on excellent composition. Billy

Rowdy,
The stiffer sidewall helps heavier cars with big power. They were originally developed for stockers (drag) with manual transmissions, but with the coming of high hp/torque motors in cars with 10.5" or less tires, a new use was created. Normal soft sidewall slicks in a heavy high powered car will wrinkle so much that it causes wheel hop as the tire unwinds.

My 67 measurements should be pretty much the same as your 66. To give you an idea where the hex links come up vertically, mine come up from the bar ends and attach to the crossmember 2 15/16" from the inside of the frame rails.

I did the Petty thing a few years back. The track was redone this year, haven't checked it out yet, but heard the banking is substantially steeper.

I've checked out most everything about your car that I've seen posted, I almost had my hands on one of the 499 '66 MalibuSS myself a couple of years ago for $7K out of No.Cal. Kick myself in the ass everytime I think about it. I'll probably head out to the Bracket Nationals tomorrow at the Strip, as a spectator, of course.

This looks like a good time to go measure underneath my car.....My mom just showed up.

The only thing I can relate is my buddies 70SS.
He uses:
Southside machine lower control arms.
Edelbrock adj uppers.
Stock springs.
Air bag in the right side.
Some sort of aftermarket sway bar.
M/T 315/60 drag radials.
Normal is a low 1.40 60ft.......but when the track ain there......1.60 or so.
Car runs 10.40's @ 127+

Ron

There is no special suspension which is going to nullify the need for the correct shocks and springs in the car.

Everyone told me Afcos were way to much for my car, but after messing around with cheaper shocks, stepping up to them was definetly the right move...

http://www.davemilcarek.com/111906/pages/11-19%207D%20018.htm

Still using inexpensive springs, but some serious effort went into finding the right spring for the car, including developing a formula for picking the right spring! Something No ONE could do for me, reguardless of who i asked they always answered "this one might work".

Next season i may be stepping up to a more optimal spring for the car, thought i still dont need a custom wound spring.

Rowdy,
IMO. the HRParts anti roll bar will do fine for what you are trying to accomplish. It works very well for me...street & strip.

My rearend has hit the wall several times. Usually happened right after I cleverly pounded some drunk loggers' fist with my face. I'm not sure an anti-roll bar would have helped unless I could have brained the guy with it before the fist/face meeting.

Rowdy, not to steal your thread, but does anyone know why the Alf Wiebe set-up is so elusive on the all mighty www. Do you sign a waver when you buy it? Not like I will ever have any horsepower to need any of the suspension work, but when I looked around before, I could only find very limited info. Just curious. Daren

The HRParts bar sure looks narrower in the pictures that I recall. From the outside of my pipes (over the rearend), it measures 28", so I should have plenty of room. The crossmember lip is only 1"-2" wide and at a relatively steep angle on both sides where meeting the frame. Is a mounting plate welded to the crossmember or something like a dog bone through the links upper Hiem joint simply screwed/bolted to the crossmember itself?

Either way, interference doesn't appear to be a problem.

Tom,
I never would have imagined Phoenix as having a thriving community of drunkin' loggers. Maybe you should either choose your drinking holes a little more carefully or get yourself a kickstand.

I spent a year ('82-'83) in Phoenix, going to U.T.I.. Back then the drinking age was 19 years old, and our school was directly behind the so called "Largest bar west of the Mississippi", Graham Central Station at Indian School Rd and Grand Ave. Drunks, Yes. Loggers, can't remember, too drunk.

Do they still have Peep Show Joints on every corner, operating in what used to be old gas stations?

Rowdy, not to steal your thread, but does anyone know why the Alf Wiebe set-up is so elusive on the all mighty www. Do you sign a waver when you buy it? Not like I will ever have any horsepower to need any of the suspension work, but when I looked around before, I could only find very limited info. Just curious. Daren

It is like a secret society. Seems that those that would be of concern, could easily poke their head under an Alf outfitted car on any given weekend.

Brian,
Looking at the photo of your Camaro, it appears that your suspension is no longer leaf spring. I know that you are a regular in a circle of Alf Disciples. Are you running an Alf set up? If so, is it basically the same hardware and principle as that used on an A Body, or something developed specificly for the F Body. Again, an inquiry out of curiosity, not for my car in particular, rather to feed my mind.

Rowdy,

those logger incidents were in my misspent youth in Oregon.

Still a few of the peep show joints, but they're just titty bars now.

GCS was in the same plaza as the former Golden Eight Ball, where I used to play pool for a living in another section of my misspent youth. I think it's still there, but that area is pretty run down now. The old Golden 8 is now a Costco parking lot. Sorta went downhill.

Right across the canal from the back of UTI is where Performance Chevy Products was located. I beat a SF-901 to death there. It was fun. I would be flogging some stock car engine and look out the door, a bunch of UTI guys would be lined up along the fence trying to see what we were doing. No mufflers of any kind on the thing, we just pounded 6" holes on the concrete wall and ran flex tubing out. the exhaust pointed right at the back of UTI. Can't imagine why the school didn't complain.

Rowdy, there were some pretty good pics of an Alf Chevelle setup on here at one time. I can't remember whose car it was, might have been Ed Bigleys. I remember looking at the pics and wondering what the big mystery was. We were running some pretty decent suspension stuff on a dirt car, that deal just didn't look all that special to me at the time. Owners certainly have gotten excellent results with it. I've never heard of anybody pulling the stuff off their car, that's for sure.

Rowdy,
Yes, the mounting plates are attached to the crossmember at the angled area close to the frame rail. There is a rod end bracket and a plate that sandwich the crossmember. They are installed by drilling two holes in the crossmember, then bolted in place. The most important part is measuring for their location (very easy when following the instructions). I also went through the extra effort of welding the anti roll-bar mounts to the axle tubes, though this is not a must.

Matchgrade,
The bar normally mounts with a u-bolt over the top of the axle tube and through a regular looking sway bar frame mounted bracket and bushing, correct?

Tom,
I took Automotive and Heavy Diesel while I was there, so I spent alot of time actually outside on the pad. If I remember correctly, just on the otherside of the canal was a machine shop calles Fast Eddies Engines. I took the oval port heads off my Chevelle over to have them decked. It used to be pretty cool when the sprint cars were in town, their semi's would be parked all over the streets around the school. All day long there would be guys sitting out there carving grooves in their race tires.

If the bar you speak of was on the north side of the shopping center, then we used to go there all the time. I thought that it had a name like Crow or Raven something, but I can't realy remember. GCS was in what had been a Woolco shopping center. The only other business open at that time was a Spanish Movie Theater. The Woolco parking lot was brutal, pot holes the size of swimming pools. One time, looking for a parking place, I hit a pot hole in my roomates old Pinto station wagon. 3 of the 4 hubcaps came off, rolling in every direction. My room mate, jumped out the pass door (too wasted to drive), ran all over, between cars, trying to gather them back up. We had given blood at school, then went pounding pitchers (amongst other things) during lunch. It was funny as he!!.

The u-bolt is actually a CNC'ed u-plate that has teeth cut into it so it will bite the axle tube. Bolts go though the bushing plate and screw into the u-plate. It's a very strong setup. I welded the plates that the bushings are mounted to on the underside of the axle tubes. I did this purely for extra insurance that the mounts would'nt roll on the tubes.

I have my axle tubes circumference welded to my third member, which I'm sure is a recommendation, if not a requirement. I ran Lakewood Ladder Bars from 1982 until 2002. They had a tendency to torque the axle tubes (particularly on the passenger side) right out. The factory plug welds just didn't cut it.

Yep, never trust the factory welded plug.:thumbsup:

It is like a secret society. Seems that those that would be of concern, could easily poke their head under an Alf outfitted car on any given weekend.

Brian,
Looking at the photo of your Camaro, it appears that your suspension is no longer leaf spring. I know that you are a regular in a circle of Alf Disciples. Are you running an Alf set up? If so, is it basically the same hardware and principle as that used on an A Body, or something developed specificly for the F Body. Again, an inquiry out of curiosity, not for my car in particular, rather to feed my mind.


Look closer, its still a leaf spring, stock eliminator legal suspension. I have Alf's "F-body" suspension under my car. Similar principal, completely different hardware.
He doesnt typically advise his suspensions for use under a street car.