Hello,

I have a M21 that I want to put behind a 454. I have the trany and bellhousing, but I don't have a flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, etc. The car is just going to be street only.

Can someone tell me what application I need for this to work? I understand I need a flywheel for an externally balance engine. Now would that be a 168 tooth flywheel? If I go to the parts store, can I just ask for a 70 chevelle set up?

Also, do I need a straight or staggared bolt pattern starter?

Thanks

Mark,
As you have mentioned, you DO need an EXternally (or UNbalanced) flywheel.
Look at these two flywheels. BOTH are totally interchangeable, both are 14in diameter and both have 168 teeth. BUT, the one on the right has an additional weight. This is the flywheel that you MUST have for a 454 (and any direvative of a 454 such as a 461, 468, etc).
ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL other (55-85) Chevy V8s (except the SB400) use a NEUTRAL balance flywheel like the one on the left.
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h219/DZAUTO/705561-R1-03-22A.jpg

This flywheel will ONLY fit in the larger bell housing, like the one on the right below (notice how the starter bulge of the right hand housing sticks out about 1in).
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h219/DZAUTO/705561-R1-09-16A.jpg
If using a STOCK TYPE GM Delco starter, you need a starter with a staggered bolt pattern that has the CAST IRON nose. The staggered bolt pattern alum nose WILL NOT fit into the starter bulge of the bell housing.
If you go to a parts store (NAPA, O'Reilly, Autozone, etc) to order a starter, just order one for a late-60s/early-70s Big Block Chevelle, such as a 70 Chevelle with 454/4sp (NOT automatic).
WHEN THE PARTS GUY HANDS YOU THE BOX, OPEN IT, LOOK AT THE NOSE OF THE STARTER TO BE SURE IT IS IRON AND NOT ALUM!!!!!
If you have a GOOD, local starter/alternator rebuilder shop in your area, they can very probably fix you up with an excellent starter. Also, if there is a choice between regular and hi-torque versions-------------YOU ONLY WANT THE HI-TORQUE VERSION (which is what all BBs came with).
Hope this helps.

Or you could use the smaller lighter flywheel. It weighs 15 lbs and requires a 10.4" clutch as opposed to the larger heavier 40lb flywheel that uses an 11" clutch. the small flywheel is 153 tooth and requires a straight bolt pattern starter. The large flywheel is 168 tooth. I would just buy a gear reduction starter from jegs that fits either pattern. I run this setup behind my 454 in a 70 and it works great.

Or you could use the smaller lighter flywheel. It weighs 15 lbs and requires a 10.4" clutch as opposed to the larger heavier 40lb flywheel that uses an 11" clutch. the small flywheel is 153 tooth and requires a straight bolt pattern starter. The large flywheel is 168 tooth. I would just buy a gear reduction starter from jegs that fits either pattern. I run this setup behind my 454 in a 70 and it works great.

The small flywheel does not have the required additional weight (for a 454) on one side.
SUPPOSEDLY, there is a small, UNbalanced flywheel available--------------------but I've never seen one, plus, I have never seen a BB with a small flywheel, with the exception of the 65 1/2 Vettes with a 425hp/396 (regular small flywheel and 10 1/2in clutch) and the L88s-ZL1s with the HD dual disc clutch and lightweight small flywheel. And those were never used on 454s.

Tom,

Great work on the pictures.

Tom, Yes they do exist... I have 3 of the 10.4" 15# 454 flywheels, 2 NOS and 1 slightly used...
1971-72 ZR-2 Corvettes used these... Crash

Thanks, great info. I'll look to see which bellhousing I have, and report back.

I'll probably just use a mini-starter. So I would assume the straight bolt patter type would work, correct?

Thanks, great info. I'll look to see which bellhousing I have, and report back.

I'll probably just use a mini-starter. So I would assume the straight bolt patter type would work, correct?

Mark,
There are different types of mini starters. Some have multiple holes, which allows the starter to be more or less universal, depending on the size of the flywheel that is used. MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT THE STARTER THAT YOU GET IS COMPATABLE WITH THE FLYWHEEL THAT YOU USE.

Ok guys, I looked at the bellhousing over the weekend, and I have the smaller version.

So I take it I need a 153 tooth weighted flywheel? Anyone know who sells an economical version of this? Thanks

I wood buy a new bellhousing & get the whole setup for whichever clutch Co. you buy from. of course you will need about an $800 budget.

Ok guys, I looked at the bellhousing over the weekend, and I have the smaller version.

So I take it I need a 153 tooth weighted flywheel? Anyone know who sells an economical version of this? Thanks

Mark,
Crash said he had 3 of the 153 tooth flywheels with the weight. Why don't you PM or email him.
Otherwise, there was a time when you could buy the 153 tooth UNbalanced flywheel from Chev parts dept, but I don't know if they are still available. If they are still available from GM, buy from gmpartsdirect. They empose a handling charge---------------BUT IT IS STILL CHEAPER!

Well, I'm really trying to keep this low budget. Going to check to see if my parts store can get a stock type flywheel like this.

I think summit or jegs has a Daikin flywheel for a 454 for under 90 bucks, I posted a question about these in hopes of finding out how they work but no one responded. Jim

I think summit or jegs has a Daikin flywheel for a 454 for under 90 bucks, I posted a question about these in hopes of finding out how they work but no one responded. Jim


I checked into those. They dont offer a 153 for externally balanced engines.

Thanks

There is always the option of using the balance plate, which goes BETWEEN the flywheel and crankshaft.

where do you get a balance plate? my 14 inch flywheel if for a 396 and Im going to convert my 454 turbo 400 to a 4 speed. Jim

Jim,
ANY of the aftermarket sources, Summit, Jegs, etc.

Thanks, Jim

So something like this will work?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SES%2D3%2D60%2D11%2D026&N=700+115&autoview=sku

If that's the case, I could just use the 153 flywheel I already have right?

I'd be willing to try the balance plate, buy I'm also worried that the plate would push the flywheel back, and cause alignment problems.

I'd be willing to try the balance plate, buy I'm also worried that the plate would push the flywheel back, and cause alignment problems.

I feel exactly the same way, but, thousands of them have been sold and installed and I've never heard anyone comment about having problems. I've also installed a couple of them on customer's engines and EVERYTHING is just fine.
So, even though I'm not crazy about the balance plates, it appears that there are no adverse issues with them. Thus, if that is a viable option for you, then go with it.

Thanks for all your help Tom, I'm going to go this route.

So something like this will work?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SES%2D3%2D60%2D11%2D026&N=700+115&autoview=sku

If that's the case, I could just use the 153 flywheel I already have right?

It should work fine with your 153 teeth flywheel.
There should be seperate balance plates for 454 and SB400 (or 383). Be sure to get the right one.

Let me just say this. I understand why you are going with the 153 tooth flywheel, but I feel that in the long run, you would be happier with the 168 tooth flywheel and an 11in clutch.
If this is to be strictly just a street driver, you should be OK with the 153 tooth flywheel and 10 1/2in clutch.

I called over to summit and jegs and they both told me they dont carry the counter balance plate for a 454. Jim

I called over to summit and jegs and they both told me they dont carry the counter balance plate for a 454. Jim

That's not good. Any idea if the sbc plate would work?

Mark,
If you are building this engine from scratch (such as a COMPLETE rebuild), I see no reason why you couldn't use the balance plate for a SB along with your 153 tooth flywheel. The reason is because if you are building an engine, you're going to have it balanced (YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE IT BALANCED, RIGHT?????????). Thus, use the SB400 balance plate to provide the additional weight.
Also, here is the way I would proceed. I would visit with my machinist and EMPHASIZE to him that ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the balancing is to be done WITHOUT the flywheel, and then be sure the flywheel is at PERFECT neutral balance. DON'T let him remove weight from the flywheel in order to balance the engine (if needed, only remove weight from the flywheel to bring it to neutral balance). Thus, later on down the road, if things should change and you acquire a neutral balance 168 tooth flywheel/big bell housing, then you could simply swap the 168 tooth flywheel for the smaller 153 tooth flywheel and leave the balance plate in place and swap the bell housings. That way, nothing would change (regarding balance) and you would then have the big flywheel and could install an 11in clutch.
That's how I would do it if I were going to use a 153 tooth flywheel with a 454.

(By the way, refresh me as to why you are not using an UNbalanced 454 flywheel to begin with-------------other than not having a big bell housing to go with it)

Tom, I already have the 454, it's been balanced (externally), and assembled.

The only reason I wanted to use a 153 flywheel was because I currently have small bellhousing, and zeroblance (no weight) 153 flywheel for my muncie.

Now I'm thinking I should just look for a larger bellhousing and run a 168 flywheel.

This might work,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Internal-Balance-Adapt-Plate-Big-Block-bb-bbc-Chevy-454_W0QQitemZ180058379039QQihZ008QQcategoryZ33732Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Just from observation of the picture, this would appear to be the 400 balance plate with an added weight welded to it. This certainly may be a satisfactory solution.

As I'm sure you know Tom, the 396 doesn't need and UNbalanced flywheel. You have mail.

Just wanted to follow up on this. I tried using a blance plate. The plate would not fit inside the flywheel, which it must in order for the flywheel to mount to the crankshaft. So it's back to doing it the right way, lol.

Just stating another problem I came into, that I didn't think of or know about.

The transmission doesn't work with the bellhousing I planned on using. The register hole in the b/h is to small for the tranny to fit into. Luckily my dad had an old saginaw tranny sitting around his place, so I swiped that one, and the hole was larger so it worked just fine.

Anyone know what application my small hose b/h came from? Maybe a 3 speed car?