Hi group. It has been a while since I have last posted anything. I finally got the chevelle back after 6 months and I seem to have a major problem. The car was finished in 99 Toyota super white. The car turned out pretty good and as I was expecting, I have to do some detail work to put the car to my satisfaction. But here is the new problem. It was painted with base/clear and every paint product used on it was Sherwin Williams. This is the product of choice by my painter and he is very comfortable with it. I got it back and let it sit for a month before I started doing any work to it. Well now there are spots on the car which are turning a nicotine stain type yellow under the clear coat. It has no pattern to it at all. I went by the paint shop today and he wants to see it ASAP and that makes me feel good. He says that this is the first time this has ever happened to him and he sprayed this car as he does all his other projects. He assured me he mixed the 2 gallons of base together so that rules any of that out I suppose. The only thing that concerms me is he buffed this car 2 days after it was sprayed and the compund he used is of a yellow base. I see alot of guys on here are more than backyard painters and would like some input as to what could have happened and if you have ever seen this before. The bad part now will be making repairs to it. I have a ton of sweat equity in this as well as 10,000.00 in the body and paint so any input would be great so I can get a feel of what is going on here.

Thanks a bunch,
John Weaver

I doubt very much that any buffing materials would discolor the basecoat. It shouldn't even be able to get to it through the clear. Sounds more like bleed through from beneath. What was the original color and paint type underneath and was a "sealer" coat used after all the primer/filler/etc prior to the basecoat application?

Think back very carefully. Is there any relationship of the stains to the locations of chemical fillers or glazing putty?
Years ago we had some staining problems with lighter colors. Much of that was traced back to the filler products being used.
The Super Paints were not always compatible with the fillers. Also if fillers were improperly catalyzed, this could result in staining.

This is not a "for sure" but one of the many possibilities.

Karl

I tend to agree with karl. the Bleed through is from a filler/glazing product...
The big question I think I would ask is if he applied a sealer under the base coat...
A sealer product not a value shade or a stump color of base coat, he had from other jobs.

As for compound casuin it it. IMO.... NO WAY
buff most jobs in a production shop, the next day... with no ill effects..

sounds like bleed through to me also :( cheap filler, red lead in a tube(when used as glaze), and or no sealer used between primer and base color are the main culprits.....I've seen a few cases of it actually bleeding through sealer before but not very often.....sand it seal it (at least once LOL) and base/clear it again graemlins/sad.gif

Peace

Thanks for all the replys. I read all the responses this morning and I think I got some good responses. I talked to the body shop this morning and got it over to him this afternoon. He did not seal the primer but he also said that he never seals his primer. He used the same technique on this car as he does all his others and has never had this problem. He was amazed at how the car looked from only 2 months ago when it left from there. He thinks that maybe he did not give the base enough time to dry but I question that because the jamb areas are the worst spots and they cured for over 24 hours before applying the clearcoat. The paint rep said it was something I put on the car but that is what you can expect from people that do not want to back up their product. The bottom line is the car has to be repainted and that is very frustrating considering this is a frame off job and I am of the personal opinion that the quality of the car will now be compromised. But I have to give credit to the body shop in that they want it right back to square it up. The best way to describe it taking a picture off of a whte wall
in a house with people that smoke in it. It has a nicotine try discoloration to it and just makes no sense.

Thanks again everyone,
John Weaver

If he is using catalized(2k) primer, a sealer would not be needed to stop bleed through from the filler.(i'm not saying that sealer is not a good idea though)

Originally posted by SLOPAR:
The paint rep said it was something I put on the car but that is what you can expect from people that do not want to back up their product. John Weaver You almost lost me with this comment. The paint rep sees the exact same products at every shop he services. He knows that there are hundreds of thousands of shops all over the country using the very same products. These products are made in many hundreds of gallons at a time. If something was wrong with the product there would be MANY other shops with the same problem. He KNOWS that the shop did something wrong. This is not an educated guess, this is FACT. I have to wonder why he didn't have "some" idea of what was wrong. But if he said there is nothing wrong with the product, for goodness sakes believe it.

When I was repping, I found that there are three basic causes for 99.9% of the problems we encounter as a painter or rep. This is the product was applied in some way that trapped solvents. This could be just applying it too heavy, too much over lap, not enough flash time, gun not properly set up, too slow of reducer, etc. Or that the substrate was sensitive to the product when applied as in it was sanded too thin, or it's substrate was not properly sanded. Or that the substrate was not sanded properly.
That may seem over simplistic, but that is it. The detective work came to finding out exactly what the painter did. Most of the time it was like being a cop, most painters DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW what they did wrong it appeared.
Anyway, your door jambs being the place where most of the problem is found is all I need to hear. The clear was applied too heavy. End of story, it is human nature to apply the paint a little wetter on places like the jambs.

Now, on the outsides of the body, it is most likely happening where too panels meet or on the tops of the fenders where body lines create "valleys" and places like that where film thickness will be greater.

I would also put money on it that if you look real close where this is happening the top of the clear is shrunk up and "grainy" looking.

Go out and take a look at the car and let me know if I am on the right track.

I can`t imagine not using a good sealer over the primer.I tried it once in 45 years of painting cars, and will never do that again.


"He did not seal the primer but he also said that he never seals his primer"

Troy-Curt graemlins/clonk.gif

I sounded a bit cocky in my last post. I am saying that it is the clear being applied too heavy IF the information posted is true. IF there is a good film thickness of urethane primer under the base, and IF there is nothing else "funny" going on like the guy painted something else before the base. You would be amazed at what a guy will do and then deny.

IF there is not a good film of urethane primer under the base then all bets are off. If it is only in the jambs, then I would put grease (the jambs are full of it) would be my next "guess". But if it is happening on the out side, and there is a good film of urethane primer under the base, the clear is it.


Troy-curt, I havn't used sealer in years IF there is a FULL covering of the panel in urethane primer. There is just no reason what so ever to use a sealer IF the panel has a complete, uniform film thickness of urethane primer. In fact, you will have fewer problems if you paint in this way. There is less texture, less chances for something to shrink, less chances for you to try to "cover" something with sealer that you should have fixed and primed, that sort of thing.

Sanding areas too thin, or not completely priming panels can cause problems. But if you have COMPLETELY primed panels and you sand them with 400-500, THAT is a perfect substrate.
graemlins/waving.gif

This is a big dollar paint job right? Could probably rule out grease as a culprit. Could the body have rusted in spots that weren't taken care of properly and is bleeding through?
I have found that if a company is looking at 100's of thousands of dollars in redues they prolly are not going to come looking for more :D
I just had a problem with a tint that was not fully ground (seedy) I was the first :rolleyes: to have any problem!!
I know some cheaper clears are more likely to yellow, and as Martinsr said where the clear is heaviest it may yellow.
Not sure why, but color always covers better over a wet on wet sealer than a sanded primer,adhesion is better also.I'll stick with sealer :D
If this is a high dollar paint job i would want something better than Sherwin Williams on it,just my personal opinion of course. Mike

quote: If this is a high dollar paint job i would want something better than Sherwin Williams on it,just my personal opinion of course. Mike unquote.

Yikes!! vettefella hides behind the couch 'cause the poo-poo may hit the fan soon!! Mike!! Dood!! Did you know MartinSr use to be a SW rep or are you the kind of guy that teases the gorillas when you go to the zoo? smile.gif smile.gif

Vettefella,those gorillas aint so scary if you know what side of the bars to stay on!! ;) I really can't say what kind of product Sherwin Williams is,the only time I used it was about 30 years ago on my parents house!! J/K Mike :D

Man, this is a tough crowd. As far as the paint rep pointing the finger, I call that ready, fire, aim. Considering the rep is only 10 minutes away, I would think he would atleast have an interest in seeing the car. I agree that %99.9 is never a manufacuring defect, but that .1 comes in somewhere. And if he did do something wrong, it is always nice to know what you did and know that your rep will work with you on it so it does not happen again. It really makes no difference at this point because it will get refinished at his expense. And he is getting it back shortly as he does not want his work on the street looking like that and he is just a conscious person. As far as Sherwin Williams paint, here is an analogy. I am in the printing industry and I hear the same talk about ink. Well, I have seen the highest price ink to the low ball dirty down ink. And in every instance, it all boils down to the Pressmen.And I am sure it boils down the the painter and what he is use to using. But people have to be religious about something, so why not the paint they use to feed their families. I would not call this a high end paint job by no means. I have more time and money in repairing the damaged areas on the car (rust and so forth). I am sure that if I had unlimited funds as it appears some of you guys do on this list, maybe I would have went with some NASA product and sent the car to a place where you leave a deposit of 5 figures and they call you when they want the next installment. Nah, even with this I would not change my painter, the paint, or even the BS of dealing with all this.

MARTINSR- You are dead on the money. You can actually see the grain in the clear and it is trying to dull in a lot of the areas. Another interesting thing is the fenders are a totally different shade from the hood. Maybe he was having a bad day or something. I will relay this information to him though. As for what primer he uses and what is in it, I have no idea. I know he pay good money for his primer as he says the cheapie chuggie primer just adds more work and the quality is poor. He also mixes red oxide and gray primer when he sprays. He says he has been doing it for as long as he can remember because it helps him see imperfections better. and on a side note, anyone who needs to cover something up while in the shop should use SLIME. It has been on the car since January and with just hot water out of the garden hose, all the overspray is coming off. The frame and all of its components looks just a good as the day I sprayed it.

thanks again for all the replys,
John Weaver

Glad to hear it's being taken car of,good luck.
Mike

thanks Mike. I meant to respond to your question of rust coming through and here is how that scenario goes. I sand all the major panels with the da. Once I got the body down to the hull, I sandblasted it using a black beauty media in all areas where I could not use the da. As far as protecting it. I wiped it down with a metal prep and used a self etching primer. All of this was down immediatley after stripping the metal. The front fenders saw some weather last winter and it never showed a problem. I even had the painter come and lok at what I was doing to make sure he was satisfied and he said it was fine. But that had crossed my mind and I asked him and he has 3 coats of primer over what I did and he felt like something more than discoloration would have occured if it was what I had done. And grease would be out of the question. The car was squeaky clean when he got it.

Thanks again,
John Weaver

Mike, you said
"I have found that if a company is looking at 100s of thousands of dollars in redoes they prosy are not going to come looking for more"
I have to say, I worked for S-W for five years. I NEVER saw even the hint of ducking responsibility. Not a single hint, at my level or from any managment. We were instructed to do anything possible to STOP any product problems, at any cost.

Vette, I am not some boot stepping company man for S-W, I couldn't care less if Mike feels S-W doesn't stack up against some other brands, I would have to agree. But it all depends what brands. If there is one thing I learned on that job, the biggies, PPG, DUPOnt, S-W are on the same plain, PERIOD. They are so close in technology it isn't even funny. When you start bringing in the high dollar stuff like Sikkens, Glasurit and the like, well, you get what you pay for. BUT NOT THAT MUCH. I have seen people produce fine day to day collision repairs, to show winning cars with every brand you could imagine. It really comes down to an opinion on which is better. And the painter who swears by one brand and feels all others are junk, in my opinion is no painter. They have fell into a comfort zone that has worked for them. Now they can't use anything else. They are not a painter anymore. This is not a personal jab at Mike or anyone else, I don't know enough about what any of you do to make such a jab. It is just a personal opinion about the hundreds of painters I worked with or tried to in the years as a rep.

John, I have to wonder about the mixing gray and red primer deal. It is sounding a little scary like he is using lacquer primer. That is an old trick with lacquer. Anyway, it would be nice to know that part numbers of the products he is using. That goes for primers as well as clears.

Sounds like the rust theory is out,but as MartinSr said if he was using a lacquer primer it could be a bleed through from the red? Seems possible that even if it is reshot it could happen again :eek:
MartinSr is right, most of the big name paints are the same,enamel systems switched to basecoats.Meaning the tints are all diluted meaning more coats to cover so where are you saving money?I sprayed PPG's worlds and it was really good a true basecoat(polyester base),just like the high dollar European paints.I just don't believe in guys spending months getting cars ready to paint and skimping at the end to save a couple hundred bucks.
I haven't seen it in years but as someone else said it could be filler bleed through also. Mike
Do a demo on a european paint for a week and I guarantee you'll never go back.
Maybe S-W is adding their house paint figures to their totals :D

Every paint manufacture out there has good and bad points. Ive sprayed PPG, dupont and S-W, I have likes and dislikes with each one. The thing that I really hated with S-W was that the base required a seprate reducer, its own reducer. I cant tell ya how many times i grabbed the base reducer for my clear or primer. graemlins/angry.gif

Am a PPG guy only cause thats what i learned to sprayed with. I want to try spies hecker paint and the closest place that carries it is Chicago friggin 9hrs away and am highly thinking of road tripping to go a hecker paint school and picking up some paint!!

If S-W is such a joke when why are they still in business?? Last time I knew they were second in sales.

This thread has drifted a little. graemlins/sad.gif Paints are like Cars they are ALL good, for something, depending on your use and expectations.
None of the Paint Companies make JUNK, however they all have their special traits.
Paint Companies are always trying to find a better, faster, less costly product.
Sometimes they do bring products to the market too soon, and we end up being the product testers.
Air emissions standards have also presented many challenges to them.
Back to the "stains"

SLOPAR-- You noted that the fenders and hood were different shades. Were they painted off car?
If so there may be a couple of different things going on.

1. Poor coverage- If I recall correctly that particular color does not cover well. Takes a few more passes of base to get full coverage.

2. Clear application too fast, too wet. (per MARTINSR)

3. Underbase products not compatible with top coats.

Note: All possibilities relate to application and product mix.

When we had the stain issues I referred to, it was the filler product. Chemical reaction between PPG base/clear and filler. This was almost 20 years ago and we did not have the great poly fillers we have today. They were not as dense, and in some cases, on light colors there was a reaction between them and the earlier base clear products. It was bad enough that we actually had to use a H20 base primer to seal off filler. Just reshooting did not fix, the stains still came through.
Use of sealer-- We have several in the product line that we use. (RM Diamont) Some are colored, one is almost clear. Sealing surface does produce a slightly more grainy substrate for base coat, however it also can provide a uniform color base for finish.
In a production shop like ours, with a lot of new sheetmetal, each repair is unique, some are sealed with colored sealer, some with clear sealer, some no sealer.

Sounds like you have a good shop, that cares. My guess is that they can scuff existing finish, rebase, and reclear. Based on your description, that is what my approach would be.

Good Luck,
Karl

Originally posted by SLOPAR:
I wiped it down with a metal prep and used a self etching primer. John, like I said, you have to be a detective with this stuff. Going back and reading the statment you gave on September fourth at 9:03 pm..oh sorry I just got caught up in a good Columbo character smile.gif

You say you used etch primer? Was it etch primer with Chromate by any chance? Chromate will bleed through white colors!

If it is mostly in the jambs your painter may have painted over your etch, or sanded through the primer he put there. That may be the problem on the outside as well, he sanded through or sanded thin the primer that was applyed over the etch.

I have seen this, chromate WILL bleed thru yellow in a light color.

It will take me few days but I will get all the part numbers of the paint materials. I am thinking the etching primer is bleeding through. The reason I say this is he replaced both quarters, the sheetmetal behind the rear glass, and the cowl hood scoop and none of these are yellowing. None of these pieces have the etching primer on them. As far as a component match, it is all Sherwin Williams. I spent a lot of time talking with our automotive division in my city about making sure this car would turn out right. Unfortunately, the painter uses another distributor. He is actually concerned about this happening again unless he gets all the paint off the car.

Thanks again,
John Weaver

Unfortunetly the chromate problem is not a widely known one. In the "Notes" on the PDS there is only a mention "A stain may occur with pigments bleeding thru on some top coats, sealing is recommended" or something like that is all that is said. I have personally seen it on a white panel but it was a totally primed part (S-W E2G980) and it simply turned the color yellow. If it was exposed by sand thrus over the areas, this would be an explanation.

It all being S-W and "matching" isn't necessarily true. There are products within the S-W line that can not be used together.

From the sound of your description of the panels that were not etch primed not yellowing pretty much proves the point. More info, I say More info. I jumped the gun with the clear because that is most common. But with more info, I think we have probably narrowed it down to the cause. And may I say, when I was repping, that would have been a darn rare one.

Unless it is primed to seal the problem it will return.

But then you are building up material again, not good.

And building up material is what has me concerned. I went into this project thinking that if we started with a clean slate, we could have a car that would look good, have a minimal amount of material, and remove anything on the car that would stir up a hornet's nest down the road. This has the makings of just that. Should I push for him to take it all back off the car meaning bare metal or will this be safe just sealing what is on the car? If I insist he cuts it down to bare metal, I can see this thing not getting back to me for another 6 months but that's the way it goes. What he actually wants to do is seal it and spray the car black or some type of dark color. I see where his view point would be and black was the second choice my wife wanted but it would seem to me the problem will show its head again.

Thanks for all the replys,
John Weaver

Wow, that is a hard one. I don't think it would be fair to you to get anything less than what you paid for. A stripped to bare metal car painted by a professional, White. I am sorry, but I think that is what you should get.

Now, from what you said about how much you paid and that the painter came by to see what you are doing from the metal up, I think the whole thing is on him.

If I wanted a black car, it would bave been black from the etch primer up. I sure as heck wouldn't be using WHITE primer under black, why would you want a white base coat now?

No, I am sorry, you deserve what you paid for. If that means he looses his butt and has to start over, that is how it is. And I mean TOTALLY over. Not leaveing the what has no etch alone and only redoing the other stuff. I can see the guy throwing the dice and leaving the back alone and then painting the front only. Only to end up with a car that is two different colors. I can see him trying that. It would be stupid, but I could see him trying to save some time.

MARTINSR, I see you are on the same page as my thought process. To whom would want to know, this is whatI have in the car. He charged me 6500.00 to replace the 2 quarter (only 1/2 pieces), install all new trunk metal including the lower quarter pieces, fix some minor rust around the rear window, replace the passengers side front floor pan, and mold a steel cowl scoop into the factory hood. This price included materials also. I was responsible for giving him a stripped car in primer with me supplying all the sheet metal and fastners needed for the car. He also had to rehang the doors and the front fenders and hood as well as get the panels aligned. I have no idea what other shops in my area would get for this and I never found anyone I was comfortable with. I had my thinderbird repaired about 2 months ago from a deer accident and the bill was riduclous and I told the owner of this high end shop I would not let them paint the borad side of a barn. It looked that bad and I refused to let them touch it. I fixed it myself. I have had people say he was way overpriced but these people do not realize the actual time and cost of material involved in this car. Even having it back now my wife is just amazed at the amount of time it takes to prep even the new trunk area for a factory type finish. But yes I do feel as though he should knock this car back down to bare metal and start over but the only way that could be done is sandblast what he is painted except for the flat panels on the car and I know at that point I would not see this car for 2 years. I have seen these things happen and it gets ugly. I am gonna ponder this and touch base with him next week. I would not hesitate helping him with the correction from a labor standpoint but that would be muddy water as I am sure at this point he wants to do it all on his own this time.

Thanks,
John Weaver

Some pictures would help identify the stain problem. I did see a similar problem on a friends car awhile back. He had it painted white and later some light stains started showing up in various places. What the problem was-----the technician never nuetralized the paint stripper with water after stripping the old finish and went directly to sanding with a DA. Minute traces of the stipper were still on the car when it was primed later bleeding out into the topcoat.

I do not think pictures will allow you to see the difference in the paint. I talked to the Sherwin Williams I have been purchasing my stuff from and they want to see the car. I talked to them about the etching primer I used and they said you could use it with or without a sealer. They also said that the local major body shops are required to use sealer for increasing the thickness of the material on the panels and not necessarily for sealing in the primer. I will have all the numbers of the products used Thursday for those who are interested. They are thinking it is filler bleed thru but they can come to their own conclusion when they see it. On a good note they were really supportive of the problem.

John Weaver

So let me get this straight, you have bondo all over door jambs?

Just what I was wandering!!Slopar it was the worst on the jambs right?

Note jambs can be very difficult to clean, I say it's stipper residue bleeding up through.

ignore the previous, I hadn't read from the beginning. If the jambs were blasted without the use chemical stripper than I guess that rules out the residue theory. Sounds like a product incompatability problem or a mix of dissimilar products. Wish I could see for myself. Hope someone goes good for correcting the failure.

Bob, I think it is narrowed down to the chomate in the etch (there are chromate free etch primers in almost every brand) the is bleeding thru. This is all a moot point if the etch is properly covered with a 2K primer.


There are three etch primers in the S-W line. One can not be painted over, the other two are basically the same and can be. The only difference in the other two is that one has chromate and one doesn't.

I had many customers who shot equipment, trucks, trailers, that sort of thing with simply etch and then color. I never saw this problem because they would shoot a color that wasn't effected. If they shot white, they used the chromate free.

Well here is an update. Originally I told you guys the panels that he put on the car which did not have the etching primer were not yellowing. Well I looked at it this afternoon and one of the rear quarters he put on is starting to yellow. I will have the numbers on all this by friday (weather permitting as S-W want to see the car and it may rain and I only want to make this a one trip deal). This has turned into a good thread. I by no means claim to be a body/paint guru and for those of you that are doing something like this with a limited knowledge base, check up on this thread. Lots of info here from people that have had guns in the hands for many years. No one would want to deal with this as there is a ton of money and labor in this project. Filler is out of the question because there is no filler in the door jamb areas so I am betting there will be a conflict with the primer he used and the prepping procedure that followed. I will update when I get the info.

Thanks again,
John Weaver

Sounds like we are back to the clear.

Hi all. Well, the body shop wanted the car back monday but I will be headed to Florida to do some bass fishing in the stick march so we will have to wait another week before the repairs begin to this mess. But here are the numbers I have so far and anyone that wants to comment, please do.

Etching primer- WP370
Sanding primer- WP300
Base coat is 35000 series

I do not have any of the numbers for the reducers or the clear coat but I should be able to get those. The Sherwin Williams that I deal with thinks it is something that reacted with the paint that caused this. He questioned the hardner so I asked the body man and he said he used hardner he has been using for years but it does have age on it but has never had a problem with it. But this hardner is not specific for a Sherwin Williams product so my question is, could this be the problem?

thanks,
John Weaver

:( I can not believe there are guys using those product and charge that much. Those are Western, one of S-W's "value lines" like PPG's OMNI or DuPonts NASON. Not only that, but the primer is LACQUER! And to top it off he is using some Five Star or some other off brand hardener!! :(

I have no idea what the "35000 series" color is. The only thing I can figure is that they are refering to the formula number or something. I don't know all the names of the S-W lines but I have never heard of that. From the looks of the cheap undercoats, I would bet it is Dimension, or some other "value line" product.

The clear, forget it, I will bet you a dollar that it is Refinishers choice, S-W's value line clear.

I just don't see why shops will do work like this using the cheapest products they can find, all for what? To MAKE a few extra bucks? What are those few extra dollars worth compared to a redo, or bad reputation?

I don't get it. :(

I don't think that any of these products are SO bad that they would "Cause" the problem that you have. But, just seeing that he used these cheapie products tells me a lot about how he works.

He doesn't play by the rules, he mixes products, what else does he do wrong? We may never know.

Getting back to the actual cause, yes "OLD" hardener (what the heck does that mean?) that is not the brand of the clear you are mixing it with could very well be the root of the problem.

What in the living hell does "old" hardener mean? Is it "the same old hardener that I always use" or is it some "Old" hardener that he used on a job two years ago that he thought he would toss in your clear instead of throwing out like he should? :(

like martin said why is this guy using cheap cheap products, on a job like this, especially a lacquer primer, hell thats 70's technology with newer technology over it, i had a friend who had tons of trouble with lifting and etc when he used a pre-mixed ready to spray sealer from napa, well it was a lacquer sealer(junk) not worth screwing around with that stuff, even on a cheap job, i wouldn't want any that laeft on my car!!! i would want it completely redone, anywas thats what i would want
jake

Man, this is discouraging. On this Western line, I had my S-W rep tell me that this is just as good as their top grade primer but it has to be relabeled. He used the analogy of a large autoparts division using prestone antifreeze and their own label. As I said, this a new introduction for me into body and paint of this magnitude. As far as what I expected out of this car, I wanted an ultra straight and minimal filler free car with a good solid paint job. I knew his painting is not concours quality but expected something solid. MARTINSR- if this was your car, how would you handle it? Can the material on the car be sealed and go from there or does it all need to go back to bare metal and start over. It sounds great on paper to make him take it all back off, but I know the reality is I will see the car in about 3 years. Too many shops handle things this way and it sucks. I had spoke with 2 people that I really think could lay the paint on a car and one has more talent in one finger than most painters could ever think of having. The problem is he is a sloppy drunk. The other guy took it as a insult to only paint the car. The thing is I would have paid extra money for better material. I actually thought he was using good material but evidently not.

John Weaver

Slopar my opinion is you got to strip the car back to bare metal. A paint job is only as good as the weakest link, and in this case its lacquer primer and or as Martin points out it would be poor prep work.

Give you an example why I think it needs stripped. I work at a production shop whos boss is a big time street rodder. Before i started there about 4-5 years ago he was doing a 46 ford convert. He decide to take it to a resto shop and have them do the work to the car, like chop top, install Bitchin firewall, floors and rockers. He decided to this because if HIS shop did it he lost money cause working on that 46 meet keeping high paying collision jobs out, so he sent it away to get.

Well a few years went by and all the work that was done was the chop top and, floors and rockers. He got mad brought the car back home which was in primer. We primed it a few times then painted baseclear guards red. About 3 months after we painted the car rust was coming back throu all over the car. Why, cause the shop that did the work used elcheapo lacquer primer.

Needless to say we ended up stripping the car back down to bare metal, where we found a HUGE mess just waiting to happen.

Just my opinion sealing up the problem is not the answer. Its covering up the problem not fixing it. Iv used this analogy before, you just cant build a house without a SOLID foundation, same thing goes for paint.
Id rather not see my car for 3 yrs then see a car everyday that I just dropped 6500 bucks in and its falling apart!!!

We used to spray S-W paints up til about 1yr ago, the S-W rep never had anything good to say about the Western line of paint, basically he stated it was JUNK.
Are you SURE this REP is a S-W rep employeed by S-W or just someguy that sells the stuff?

Well, the WP370 is a relabled E2G980, I agree. I just looked at the MSDS. But the WP300 is STILL lacquer and I am pretty sure (though I am not going to take the time to look at the MSDS because is is a moot point) it is NOT made by S-W. Tell your rep that only a few products in the Western or Refinishers choice are S-W products, the others are buy outs. Some are made by PCL and others. The WP370 is exactly the same and is in fact the same product, but it is the only one that I ever found to be so.

I say strip the car if you want a long lasting job. Not the lacquer is SO bad, but you have other problems, the yellow stains, less we forget. If you are to repair those, you will have paint and clear again building up a tremendous amount of film thickness. So, that and the junk lacquer, just strip and get it over with.

If corrective repairs means 3yrs than my all means get your money back and keep your car out of that garage! You must live in a high population area with an unlimited customer base, if that kind of work and customer service went on in a shop around here they wouldn't be in business very long. JMO

It should not take over 3 weeks--4 at the most, to strip and repaint.

Good Luck
Troy

Once again, thanks to all those who have replied to this. When I talk to him in a week, I am gonna tell him that I only see this car being right by stripping it down to bare metal. I think there will be a major problem because I put the etching primer on it and that is lacquer. I did not understand all this but I can't do anything about it now. What I may offer to do is pay for the paint materials. If the paint does not come off the car, it sounds anything else is a waste of time. What would you guys recommend for paint materials? And I know it will have to be in the S-W line. I know this would be odd telling him what materials I want, but that may have to be the way it is. It is still amazing to me that he is using fossil materials but can and has produced some nice finishes.

Thanks,
John Weaver

Etch prime is not laquer,its actually an enamel.

I was told as a rep that at least ours (S-W) was lacquer based. However, that doesn't mean that it is "outdated" lacquer. I could see where the confusion could be. It is NOT the lacquer primer that was used on the car, that is outdated.

Hi all. I picked the car back up from the body shop this morning. I was amazed that he refinished this car in only 2 weeks. Actually, I had in the back of my mind that he put a band aid on it and I was gonna have a fit. Well, I was proved wrong. Not only does the paint quality look excellent, he really smoothed out the body panels. He took all the paint off and said that if it does start to have a problem again, it will all go back down to bare metal. I am ok with this since he will hold his word to it. When I get a chance, I will post a picture of it. Needless to say my wife looked like a kid on christmas day when she saw it. As for what has happened with the orignal paint is still not known. As I told everyone before, the S-W rep he was dealing with blew him off. He got with our main branch in Richmond and they wanted to look at any of the leftover paint. I took it back to him and they only thing he has told after they looked at it was they wanted him to paint a test panel using my primer, his primer and that paint. We have done all that. Who knows and when I find out, I will certainly post. The difference in the way this coat of paint looks versus the first is like night and day. Thanks to all that posted on this ordeal as it gave me some insight as to what could have happened. Defintely thanks to MARTINSR as I pushed my painter to seek help from the main branch per your opinions.

Thanks all,
John Weaver

That's GREAT news John...

A Happy Ending graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/hurray.gif