Most of you know my story of getting my 65 back in shape. it's been rough going lately and I am getting by and making progress, but I have something that has been in the back of my mind for a while stat keeps giving me the uh-oh feeling.

I am pretty sure the car was in a wreck before I got it. here are some things that gave me this feeling...

When I took the grill off to run the front lamp harness, I noticed that a few of the bolts didn't line up.

If I shake the passenger fender it rattles a lot.

When i drive around the car rattles and squeaks like crazy. it sounds like it is just going to fall apart.

The front bumpder bracket is snapped and bent on the fasenger side.

Other items of note... the frame was sandblasted and powder coated. He replaced the front steering and suspension parts.

And here is the big zinger. if I turn the wheel left, not even all the way it feels like it is rubbing and catching on something. i feel like an idiot because he told me it was the power steering and I didn't investigate any further.

But I just looked and when I turn the wheel to the left (not even all the way) it rubs on what I would assume is the front sway bar. And i can see it has been digging into it. If I turn the wheel all the way to the right, the driver side wheel has plenty of clearance. it is only the passenger wheel that catches when turning left.

Am I screwed? is the frame bent? What am I looking at? Am I looking at a loss here. What are my options?

Sorry for the pessimistic attitude. i have just found that when dealing with this car, it usually turns out bad. i keep on plugging away and yes it is running now, but my dream car I have always wanted has been a real spirit drainer since I got it.

Anyways, let me have it...

Thanks

just somethijng else to address. If the frame is bent, a good shop can straighten it lickity split.

Did he remove the frame to powder coat it? I had to on mine maybe he just wasnt real careful during reassembly. Tire issue could be a alignment issue. was it realigned after the front end was rebuilt?
Mike

Jim,
Does the car turn sharper to the left or right when you crank it all the way?

I thought once a frame was bent it could be mended but never really fixed.

yes the body was off the frame.

As for the alignment, I am not sure. i do not think so since it jumps to the right now and again when i brake hard.

Does it have disc or drum front brakes?

Chevy fan attic, sorry to sound stupid here... but do you mean that when i crank the wheel one direction or the other, does the cars turn radius seem tighter on one side as opposed to the other?

Brakes - drums all around. plan to upgrade to power disks all around before end of year. Money that was set aside for that went into all new wiring instead.

Yes is the turning radius tighter to one side

I have never really experimented. Although i do no that i can turn hard right all the way but can't turn the wheel all the way to the left without catching and rubbing like mentioned above.

Jim...if you turn the steering wheel "lock to lock"...is it equal in both directions?
Example...you have the front wheels centered(like when driving straight)
do you have... say...2 1/2 turns to "lock" to the left and only 1 1/2 to the right?
If so.....p/o didn't have the steering box "centered" when he installed the
steering linkage.
I don't know if the steering boxes on these old critters have a "master"
spline on the pitman(output)shaft. If not,it's possible that the pitman arm was installed without the box centered.
(had this happen to me twice with Mopars...'66 Belvedere and a '70 Duster)
:)

I'll check in the morning. I try not to fire her up after dark unless I need to go to work or go somewhere. hopefully keep the neighbors from revolting.

Why dont you find someone with a car like yours and compare measurements.

Back when I was rebuilding Honda's I would get measurements from good cars to make sure the measurement were the same during the rebuild.

Can you create the front left interference and take a photo? Sounds like you're not sure what it's hitting. If the frame was bent enough to cause interference on one side, you'd notice it as the car wouldn't track straight when driving.
d

i had an older firebird that had a similiar problem, turned out that the sway bar was bent, passenger side mount bent in drivers side bent out causing it to be shifted to the passenger side when mounted, I replaced it with a junkyard unit there was no more interference. looking down at the old one it looked like this /___/ as opposed to the replacement that looked like this \__/. maybe you have a similiar prob

ken

find a dirt road and drive in a straight line for lets say 200 feet approx. get out and look at the tire pattens then you'll know if shes not true. redneck alingment gauge.:thumbsup:

As to the jumping to the right when you hit the brakes, check your front A arm bushings. If they're worn out, that may let everything move when stressed.

Can you create the front left interference and take a photo? Sounds like you're not sure what it's hitting. If the frame was bent enough to cause interference on one side, you'd notice it as the car wouldn't track straight when driving.
d

Yeah I will take a picture when i wake up and get moving.

As for the sway bar and bushings, they look to be new.

Ok...

First the pittman arm only goes on the steering box one way. Cannot get un-centered that way. The only way to get the steering un-centered is to grossly miss-adjust the tie rods.

Next the steering stops are built into the steering gearbox and you should never "hit" anything. If you are then something is out of whack and it is time to examine and measure parts.

If the car wants to veer off when you hit the brakes it can indicate several things. One the car will tend to veer if you have the wrong toe-in setting, toe out will do this. If your suspension bushings or steering linkage are loose you can create toe out with braking force. You can also just have a biased brake force due to things like adjustment (since they are drums) or lining contamination.

A good alignment may be a very good start as they should also inspect parts and note any deficiencies.

A brake inspection would not be a bad idea either for much the same reason.

In some cases you can detect alignment issues by examination of the tires. If you slide your hand over the tread from side to side and have "sharp" edges in one direction and not the other, then the toe is probably incorrect.

I love the 'red neck alignment gauge' suggestion.

If all else fails take the sway bar off and set it on a level place. See if it sits on the floor symetrically. It should contact the floor in 4 places. If it doesn't its trashed. One thing you DON'T do is unbend sway bars. Unless, of course, you retemper it.

The good news is that they aren't particularly expensive.

Ok so I fired her up and did me some experimentation...

From center in park with engine running, I can turn the steering wheel 1.5 turns to the left and 1.75 turns to the right.

Here are some pics of the obstruction:

Hard right (free and clear)
http://datapusher.org/chevelle/steering_right.jpg

To the left (where the trouble is)
http://datapusher.org/chevelle/steering_left1.jpg
http://datapusher.org/chevelle/steering_left2.jpg
http://datapusher.org/chevelle/steering_left3.jpg

Also, since I have everyone's attention. I have often wondered if this part of my steering is as it should be. Seems to be bent up, which should alarm me. However both sides are bent so it looks like it may supposed to be that way.
http://datapusher.org/chevelle/steering_linkage.jpg

Also, any suggestions on a good shop/chain in SoCal that would do a thorough alignment check and not just balance the tires?

OK, so the tire is hitting the sway bar on one side. Are the wheels the same on the front, same backspacing? Are the tires the same width on the front? Remove the sway bar and do the abovementioned test to see if it's bent.

It sounds funny, but that works. I grew up on a dirt road, it helped when I put a rear in to see if I was dog-legging or not. I also had a 64 with a bent sway bar, but mine, the whole thing shifted to the passenger side and bent the links. I had a parts car I got the sway bar out of. See if your sway bar has two clean spots next to where it sits in the frame mount where it looks like it was sitting before.

the rag joint is as it's supposed to be. They are all cupped like that.

A picture of the entire setup from as close as you can get but far enough to see everything with the wheels pointed straight ahead would help a lot. Sort of a wide angle shot that would show symmetry from side to side. :)

Jim, I'm not sure about your minor flair for the dramatic in wondering if you have been screwed - so allow me to be Captain Obvious for a moment: Chevrolet never expected this car to still be on the road 41 years later. One of the reasons why GM used shims in so many places on the frame and body is that the production technology of 1965 allowed for wider tolerences to still be called good.

Add into all of that a few hundred thousand miles of driving and countless potholes, some parts of the car may "settle" more than others. After a nationwide search for a car that fit your budget and had enough of what you wanted you can now decide how "perfect" the restoration will be.

The simple fact of the matter is that a lot of older cars have their frames straightened out while undergoing a body off restoration - including a lot of cars that have never been in an accident.

What you need more than anything right now is to have a frame and alignment shop check it out. Start checking with the local bodyshops and they can steer you to one or more frame shops in your area. My local frame shop is
Anderson Frame & Alignment Company (714) 636-8662
7521 Garden Grove Blvd
Garden Grove, CA 92841
You may even find that it is the better bodyshops in your area that have the frame alignment equipment. If your suspension still has some tired bushings, tie rods, etc., then you should replace those parts prior to putting the car on the rack.

As far as your car darting to one side or another upon hard braking: welcome to the world of four wheel drum brakes where such antics are pretty common - especially on older cars with worn out brake components.

Relax, your car is completely fixable and restorable.

Thomas

Im wondering if maybe someone had the steering wheel off and didnt get it centered in the proper location when it got re-installed. Thus causing more of a turn one direction then the other.

I will go out in a few minutes and take some pictures for y'all of the complete setup with the wheels straight.

As for replacing components before I send it to a frame or alignment shop... from what I was told, all of the steering and suspension were upgraded:

"All of the parts that I used were out of the OPG catolog. Yes I replaced everything on the suspention. I bought the kit. It's a front end rebuild kit for 1964-77. The kit incuded the tie rods, upper and lower control arm bushing, the idler arm. And all of the suspention is just the OPG brand whatever that is but it's not the Hotchkis. "

So if that is on the up-n-up, they should be fine.

But if I am planning on getting new tires, should I get those before the alignment and frame check?

Scratch that. Looks like my tires (front 195/60r/15, rear 235/605/15) are on major backorder at every place I have called. Looks like I will just have to get the frame and alignment checked/done before I get this tires replaced.

First comment Jim is regarding the "rag joint" you have in your last picture. The attaching plate on the upper shaft is supposed to be shaped exactly like that. That is good and is part of what allows this joint to flex slightly and allow for angle differences between the steering box and steering shaft. What is not good is all of the bolts on that joint. It appears that your rag joint has been "rebuilt" with a quickie repair kit. One of the folks here on TC, JIML82 (?) used to be a steering systems engineer and has nothing good to say about these kits.

The way this is supposed to be put together is:

1. The rubber disk is rivited to the lower side of the joint and has steel pins that extend up through those slots in the upper joint. Those pins normally do not touch the slots but will/can if the rubber distorts. Those pins also provide positive connection (read: failsafe) to this critical steering connection.

2. The rubber disk is bolted to the upper side of the joint using shouldered bolts. This shoulder is very important because it allows the bolts to truly be tightened without over compressing the rubber disk. Further the bolts will stay tight as the metal of the shoulder does not shrink/compress over time. If my guess is correct, you have plain bolts here and they will loosen over time as the rubber ages.

It is not normal for your steering wheel to turn more in one direction than the other. This makes me wonder if PO did an improper steering box swap. You are going to love this... but I would like you to take 3 more pictures :) All three pictures will be the view from ground up showing the steering box and the pittman arm in A) full left, B) center, and C) full right positions. If center is straight as it should be, and left and right are not equal, then we will know if the steering box stops are incorrect.

Note that one steering stop is way up inside the box and is a bugger to get out while the other is part of the end cap and is very easy to swap. I think this will cause exactly the offset you are describing. It would also mean you really should be rubbing on *both* sides and may have a sub-optimal wheel/tire combo on the front :clonk:

There really are worse things to rub against than a nice rounded sway bar.

Measure you body mount bolts in X pattern.

Example, the distance between the front left bodymount and the rear right bodymount bolts shoule be Identical to the distance between the front right bodymount and the rear left bodymount.

This can be applied to any suspension points as well(balljoints to bodymount etc..)


If the measurements on the X pattern are not the same, then the frame is bent,

I will go out and take pictures now.

Just for the record, the car has a 2" drop all around.

if there is a better tire combo than:
Front: BFG R T/A 19560R15
Rear: BFG R T/A 23560R15

Now would be the best time to let me know as I have been driving around to all the tire shops trying to get new rubber.

I like the meaty look of the rear tires and like that the fronts are a little smaller so it gives it a little drop in the front.

That being said, if there is another combo that would cause my problem to go away and give me better gas mileage, I am all for it. I also would not be opposed to getting 4 tires the same size since it would ease in rotation and in the caze of a blowout/spare scenario. Although I know this would raise me in the front and change the stance it has now.

Stay tuned for pictures in a few minutes. I need to take a breather first. it is hot as balls outside and driving in that car with no AC all day wiped me out.

Ya gotta love living in California. Weather folks claimed 70's today up in the mid-section but it felt like high 70's.

Sorry for the pics. i hope they get you what you need. My camera is great, but has problems going wide at close range. And space is at a premium under there. I tried to get as many angles as possible, but I couldn't get the whole shebang in any one pic.

http://datapusher.org/chevelle/steering/

I know it is hard to get under there...

These two are close to what I was thinking of:
http://datapusher.org/chevelle/steering/left-014.jpg
http://datapusher.org/chevelle/steering/right-024.jpg

Note the index mark on the pittman arm and the flat on the steering box in particular. What I was hoping for is three shots from exactly where you took that right lock shot from. Want to take away the perspective changes so we can tell how far that mark moves left, right, and that it is in the center for straight. Even better make a fine line mark on the steering box aligned with that index in the straight ahead position first.

Lots of trouble I know... and a good alignment shop will start by putting everything straight ahead and centered. Of course a bad one will just slam it through and make the toe right then send you down the road.

datapusher are your tie rods (outers) on top of the spindles ? it looks like they are hitting your sway bar.mine mount from underneath luke

Yeah I figured they would be worthless.

I will take the same shot at center, hard left and hard right.

as for tie rods... let me go look.

It looks to be below if not level to where the spindle centers on the rim.

9 new pics!

find a dirt road and drive in a straight line for lets say 200 feet approx. get out and look at the tire pattens then you'll know if shes not true. redneck alingment gauge.:thumbsup:

Another redneck trick is to use the same dirt road for a brake test, to see if a malfunctioning brake is causing the car to pull to the side. Slam the brakes at 10 mph or so and check the marks on the road, that will tell you if the brakes are working evenly.

finding a dirt road in the city is about as likely as finding a tree or front yards ;)

never mind about the tierods turn the laptop over and see there on the bottom . did your car come with power steering if not and you put power steering on what pitman arm did you use? if you used the manual arm it is the wrong one. luke

finding a dirt road in the city is about as likely as finding a tree or front yards ;)

Not a problem, you can do the same test on a paved road. You just have to drive faster. :D

sebastian uhhhhh huh?

did your car come with power steering if not and you put power steering on what pitman arm did you use? if you used the manual arm it is the wrong one. luke

It wouldn't even fit, would it? :confused:

i will half to check the garage i have both the manual and power pitman arms .i will check the numbers also do not know if there is spline difference . luke

are thos stock spindles or aftermarket spindles? is it possible that the steering arms on the spindles are not symetrical? cant tell from the pictures, in one of the pictures it appears to be some rubbing between the tie rod adjuster and the sway bar, cant seem to find the picture again to give the name but check your swaybar to see if it was just road grime or an actuall contact point between them.

never mind about the tierods turn the laptop over and see there on the bottom . did your car come with power steering if not and you put power steering on what pitman arm did you use? if you used the manual arm it is the wrong one. luke

Jim....don't worry about this.they are not interchangable.

I have a 65 Chevelle with a two inch drop spindles from superior. The bolts for the tie rod sleeves hits my sway bar when the bolts are pointing horizontal. They don't rub all the time and since I repositioned the bolts, clearance has not been an issue. I probably get a new aftermarket sway bar to see if gives me more clearance.

The spindles shouldn't be drop springs. The drop should be from springs. Not sure if the spindles are stock or not.

Ok this one I like:
http://datapusher.org/chevelle/steering/_center-040.jpg

This indicates to me that your pittman arm is straight in the center position. I base this on the location of the index mark versus the flat on the steering box.

The left and right are harder to tell as the perspective angle changes slightly.

You may want to do some reading here (Jim Shea's steering papers):
http://jimshea.corvettefaq.com/?page_id=5

Lots of helpful and useful stuff in there.

If I do some math and play with the numbers...

1.5 turns left and 1.75 turns right means you have 3.25 turns lock to lock. That would be a fast 12.7 ratio steering gear which are 3.25-3.5 turns lock to lock. So your steering box has been upgraded somewhere along the way.

You only get about 0.86 the travel to the left as you do to the right. The full travel Chevelle boxes had 43.5* total travel, or 21.7* to a side. That would suggest you have 18.6* to the left which would normally correlate to a 37.2* total travel.

Now the goofy part is as I think about it some more, the travel limit to the left is the end cap and not the internal ring as I was thinking before (lots of parts going this way to make other parts go that way... easy to get confused there). So it may be that your turns would be equal if your clearance was equal. How much clearance do you have on the left side with the wheels cranked to the right?

I am still thinking an alignment check would be a good thing. You probably want to share your concerns with the alignment guy so they look at a little harder.

Just to update you all. I have had some trouble locating replacement tires for my car. As soon as I get them delivered and mounted up I am going to go over to the place Bomber '67 recommended, Anderson Frame & Alignment Company.

Have them look at the frame and align the tires. Hopefully that will solve some of the problems if not all.

I will be back on to share the results.