Gotta ask this. I bought a 3m hook it system for the DA and MA and it is really nice except the disc sometimes fly off. I could not even keep a disc on the 6" and took the pad back today and got another one. The paint shop said this is the first time anyone has ever had this happen. Is there a trick to making them stay on or is this just .01. Thanks for any replies in advance

John Weaver

Were you using 3M paper? The 3M hookit system is just that, a system. The buggers at 3M made it nearly impossible to use other paper on thier pads.



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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

MartinSr, what do you think of the "Hook-it" system? I'm doing a consulting job with a dealer shop in Texas and am strongly leaning toward recommending they stop using the system simply because of cost. I haven't personnally used it, but I don't see where it's any better than the "stick-it" discs/paper, but it is waaay more expensive.

I am using the correct disc, or so the paint shop said anyways. They said this is the first time anyone has ever had this problem, but I not so sure about that either. I am no body man, but as far as the quality and labor time, these disc outperform the stickback disc 2 to 1.

John Weaver

vettefella- I am not MartinSr but will share opinion. We use Hook-it exclusively. Except for very small quantity of Stick-it for use on tube sanding for contours. Have 5 body techs and 2 paint. No way would we switch back to Stick it. Far less waste from roll style of D A discs getting dirty, the edges stay attatched to pad, feel they last longer, less time to change. For a production shop they work very well. The painters have carts set up and keep them in the box. All staff members have their own inventory in their work areas. Our staff is VERY material sensitive, they take pride in not wasting product. They are very pro-active at finding faster, better less time consuming methods. With this attitude of staff, it is easy to justify the additional expense. For a production shop TIME is the most important measure. For a hobbiest, the Stickits are fine, however, storage and aging of product may result in roll style Stick-its being more expensive due to waste. Our abrasive material expense is the smallest part of our materials expense. Liquid product is by far the the largest component of materials cost. Our paint vendor can break down all costs in various product areas. I know I am from Minnesota, the home of 3M, we HAVE tried other approaches, always come back to 3M. Karl

Make sure you have the right pad and paper combination.There is Hook it, and Hook it II.A Hook it II pad or paper will not work with Hook it pad or paper.I had the same problem.

Make sure which 3M Hookit System you are using. There is the regular Hookit and the Hookit II system. Pads and discs will not interchange.

I agree with "MATB" on the fact that for the overhead cost, for the do-it-yourselfer, Stick-it is the cheaper way to go.

Since the shop I manage is an "In House" shop, we generate no capital. I have to budget my pennies very carefully. Time, product cost and waste are all prime factors in determining which product I use. By switching to Hookit I have cut my paper loss by at least 1/3. Since we do a large amount of spot repair, grit changes can be made quickly without the loss of the disc. The Hookit can be tossed on the work cart whereas Stickit needs special care to save and is usually a futile attempt at best. Stickit is simply not cost effective for small jobs requiring minor sanding. I have also found that pad life is extended and the intermediate pads are a godsend.

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When in doubt, Gas it!

Vettefella, Karl said it all. It really depends on the guys using it. But, I have also seen where the guys that will toss away cheap paper like it is Kleenex will use a quality paper longer. One of the first things shop owners would say to me when I pitched the Velcro paper was "I can't spend that kind of money to have these guys throw it all over the floor." What he didn't realize is they are throwing it all over their floor because the cheap paper they are using is CRAP. If you gave someone a quality paper that actually cut for a while, they are not going to throw it away WHILE the paper is still cutting well. They will toss the cheap paper because it STOPS cutting. Of course they will toss the cheap paper a lot, it is costing them back breaking work! Why would they keep a dull disc on their sander so they can "rub" it on the panel, for fun?

I use to do a demo where I got a piece of metal with paint on it, like a discarded hood. I had the painter or preper sand with their cheaper paper down to bare metal and strip as much paint off as they could. I had a stop watch and would give them three full minutes. When the three minutes were up, we measured the area they stripped and figured the square inch of area they were able to strip in that three minutes. I then had them do the same with the paper I was hawking. After he was done, we measured what my paper had done and compared. You would be surprised at how much money they were LOSING using the cheaper paper. I had one guy with a very large truck painting shop who bought paper for $15.00 a roll (some garbage made overseas). He would always say "When you can beat that price I will buy from you." I asked him every time I was in there, can I do a demo. He just repeated about the price. One day he was fed up with me asking and said go ahead. Right then the 3M rep walked in (I had to kick his a$$....just kidding) WE did the demo, my paper against his 3M purple hookit, against the $15.00 a roll crap. we had to force the painter to keep the cheap paper on the sander, he went to pull it off at less than a minute. We did the demo with one sheet of the cheap stuff and with multiple sheets, just to see if you could possibly save using the cheap stuff.

When all was said and done the guy was PAYING his guys $153.00 dollars MORE in labor to use the cheap paper!!!

I lost the sale because the more expensive 3M Purple paper worked 20% better than what I had. The shop immediately switched from $15.00 a roll to $36.00 a roll, so much for "saving money."

Sand paper amounts to an average of 5% of the shops paint material costs, while sanding labor accounts for an average of 30% of billed paint labor.

The labor cost should be the focus.

SLowpar, I never like it when a sales man says "I have never seen that before". He sells a ton of the stuff, so he is really saying either you are a complete moron or everyone who uses it is too stupid to tell him about the problem. Either way it sounds like crap. If you post the exact part numbers of the paper and the pad, I can check them with my 3M catalog and see if they match. I tell you, 3M has a number of different "Hookit" style systems. I have an Orbital Huthins air board that has the regular "Hookit" pad. There are only four grits available for it and those have to be special ordered. The other "Hoodit"s won't work at all. You need to do some homework to figure out what you have.

By the way for you doityourselfers, the Hookit can really work well for you. The extra money is more than saved when you figure you can reuse discs so many times. I know that if I am doing something at home that is small, I use the 36 maybe to knock down the filler, then take that $1.00 or more disc off to go to 80 grit. What do you do with the 36 grit disc? Lay it down to get dirt on it, try to reapply the protective plastic over the stickit glue? I know, I have been there. If it were Hookit, you simply put it back in the box for the next little job.

Also, those high end papers cut SO MUCH BETTER than the cheap stuff. I am an old man so maybe it's me, but I HATE to work harder than is necessary. If I am sweating over some filler work on a nice saturday afternoon, I want the darn thing done as fast as possible. Plus, good sand paper to a bodyman is like a sharp knife is to a Chef, the dull tool only causes trouble.

I still have a lot of paper in my garage from when I was a rep. I have a lot of cheap paper that I picked up when I did a "change over". One day I was stripping the paint on the hood of my Gran Sport with a 40 grit 8". I used the cheap stuff and stripped up to the first body line on one side of the hood, a strip about one foot wide from the front to the back on the side of the hood. It took one of these cheap discs to do it (about 15% of the hood). These are Econobody retail pack discs. I then grabed the Carborundum Red, a top of the line product that costs about twice as much. I stripped the REST of the hood with it and went on to cut some filler too! It is very important to use high quality "tools", they really pay off.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 09-07-2002).]

First, let me apologize to slopar for disrupting his topic question.

Thanks for the feedback on the Hook-it. I usually personally try products before I pass judgement one way or the other. I have a large supply of Stick-it for my personal projects, so I haven't had a need to try the Hook-it. Besides, the stick-it was free. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

In considering cost effectiveness, don't ignore the little things. Sure, labor costs are #1, liquid materials are high on the list too. Let's say that sandpapers do constitute 5% of materials costs. I've managed a shop that purchased well over $250K materials in a year. Assuming all other factors are considered, every dollar saved on sandpaper is pure profit. Saving pennies can add up to many dollars in a high volume shop whether it's a sheet of sandpaper or a fraction of a labor hour.

Again, thanks for the input.

Pleae don't apologize. this is great information. I have the hook it 2 pads and disc. I was just wondering if this just part of the deal or what. One thing I am gonna do with the 8" disc is cut them down for the 6". It gets rids of a lot of the wear spots on the disc and makes use of them.

Thanks again,
John Weaver

SLOPAR, sorry I guess I never did respond to YOUR question. Glad others answered. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/redface.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/redface.gif Karl http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif