We took my son's 69 chevelle to the body shop almost two months ago, we talked to the body man before taking the car down to discussed what we wanted, then set up a time to take the car down for him to check out.
After he checked the car over and make some subjections we agreed on what should be done(adjust doors/fender/hood/ fix rust at bottom of rear window/ a couple of small dents, install front and rear window trim and an paint job) an a dollar amount to try to stay in ($3000. cash), and that he
could have it done in a month. My son checked on the car a month ago (still had a lot to do), so we decided to give him more time. I did call to let him know that I knew he had alot more to do on the car and that we were willing to give him more time but we wanted the car by the middle of this month.
My son went down today to check on the progess.
Well after two months it appers that he has only primered a little over half of the car, done a little putty work on the hood and drivers door, adjusted the the doors/fenders and hood and removed the rear window.
Needless to say I am less than happy with this out come. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/mad.gif
I called and left a message on his phone that I will be coming down on the 27 of this month. I feel he is not taking care of my interest with doing what he said he would do.
Well, I am perpared to bring the car home with me when I go down the 27.
I have two questions.
First, he charges a shop rate of $35.00 per hour, what would be a fair amount to be charged for the work he has done?
Second, it looks like I am in the market for a boby shop to take the car to. I live about 35 miles southeast of K.C. Mo and would perfer to find a shop close to home, could anyone in the area recommend a body shop that is reliable and is reasonable priced.
Sorry for the long post.
Mike

In your post you mentioned $3000.00 CASH. Is this a real shop or someone doing it on the side? The approach to bring closure to this problem will be totally different. With a legitimate business the are several avenues available to you. Options may be more limited with a private party. Keep in mind if things fall apart further this could be a very expensive lesson. Karl

Karl
This is a mom and pop shop, in a small town not to far from where I live. The shop has be in business since 1978
It appers to me that he is using my son's car as a "fill in". We need to get this car finished, my son and I have spend the last two years working on the car.
Both times that my son has gone down to check on his car the shop owener (Jim) has been rude to him. I don't know whats this guys problem is but I do know that I do not what It to be my problem. In short he has not bothered to call me to explane his side, he has not kept his end of the deal and he has been rude to my son a paying customer.
I have decided that I no longer trust Jim and feel that he doest have my best interest in mind, so I do not what him to work on the car, I am going to pay him what he is due and take my business eleswhere. That is why I was asking to try to figure out what I might be paying him you the work already done. I do know that this will end up costing me more money, but inorder to get the car finished I will rack it up to a lesson learned.
Thanks
Mike

I have been in the situation where I have taken a car in for repair and it did not fit with the flow of the shop. It is very easy for the larger and resto jobs to move to the back burner. Unfortunately, even those starting out with the best intentions can fall into this trap. When one of your other customers come rolling up with their daily driver messed up, they WILL take priority over the hobby car. I am not saying this is right but it is, the way it is! If your son is similar to my daughter, he may wear his emotions on his sleeve and is ill equipped to effectivly negotiate an outcome. There may be value in you calling and asking to have lunch with shop owner (in a non threatening manner). Remember good cop, bad cop. If he is unwilling to take the time to "break bread" pick a time mid-week, mid-day to stop by unannounced. Ask to sit down and discuss options. Understand that he is possibly as frustrated as you are. Suggest that you really want him to complete repairs, but you need his pledge to perform. As part of this presentation ask him if he would rather just negotiate a fair price for work completed, and have you take car away. If he is really overwhelmed he may see this as, light at end of tunnel, and be very reasonable. If he is a jerk, or a phony BS'er you will know by middle of conversation. Is he a member of Better Business bureau, or a trade Association? Anything that can be done to negotiate a fair outcome to all will be the least painful in time and $$$. It is very difficult to determine value of what he has completed, virtually impossible. Best way to set table for value is to ask, ask part of earlier discussion, if he thinks he is 1/4 or 1/2 done etc. That will give you a basis to determine what your buy out might be early in dialogue. Also allows you to challenge: If you are 90% done, when can I expect the other 10% to be complete? How many hours of work left? All these questions will provide you with information needed to try and wrap this up. Based on your discription, I am sure your son is a great young man, but it is VERY easy for people on both sides of issue to trip over testosterone. He has done nothing wrong, but to want his car back. The problem is the repair person and his failure to communicate and complete project. Hope it works out! Karl

I just went through this same exact thing.All I heard was "this is all I have to do to finish".It was always the same things for and he would always be finished in a few hours but it dragged out for weeks.I told him he I was to pay anymore It was going to be finished and I would load it up and take it home.He called and said he needed to be paid and of course I asked was it finished.He said it would be but I didn't have a trailer to get it on and I was at work when he called.He got pretty rude with the pay thing and I told as of now I cant come down unless I find a trailer to carry it home.He said ok,so his help promptly walked out him(his son which wasn't supposed to be working on it in the first place).I call him back after several tries of him not answering the phone and tell him I busted my butt to find a trailer and I would be there to pay him and take it home(I didn't know his help walked out and he didn't bother to tell me it wasn't finished)he said ok we would talk.When I get there it is in primer but the trunk isn't finished,the back glass area is finished,didn't put the braces back in the trunk(said it would have to be done with the car off the frame)broke my door latch,little odds and ends here and there.Needless to say I was fuming.I said lets load it up(all he had to say was it wasn't finished when I called).We go to settle up he started to add things here and there(the exact same thing his old boss did and the reason he said he left there)and the price was getting higher and higher with a unfinished car.I told him he wasn't going to get all that because it wasn't finished and he goes into the song and dance(whining)that he spent so many hours on the car there was this and that and I promptly told him he saw the car before he priced it and I told him to expect the worst case scenario.We finnaly settle on a price that i was not satisfied with but at this point I just wanted to get out of there and I told him to mark my bill paid>He marked it paid this amount and I left and looked at it on the way home and turned around,went back and made him mark it paid in full.He didn't like it but I didn't care.I finally got all my parts back last week after about a month but the only problem there was making him realize that he still had some of my parts.I marked it up as a expensive learning experience and I'll never go back there or recommend anyone else to either.Good luck with this.

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John 67ss
ACES #2887
Team Chevelle Gold #127
www.mylegacyforlife.net/67ss (http://www.mylegacyforlife.net/67ss)

First things first.. GET THE CAR OUT OF HIS SHOP. As long as you have a title and you have a tow truck/trailer go pick it up.. Bring title and all documents with you. If he DOES NOT allow to remove it.. CALL THE POLICE. They will come and you will be allowed to remove it under legal authority. I do not care what anyone else says, at the point where you get mad at the person doing the work they are 10 times madder at you for nagging them and you will get crappy work done! DO NOT PAY A DIME.. you read that correctly. If he wants his money so bad he will come for it. and you should treat him exactly how he treated you and your son. As soon as the car is loaded on the trailer drive it to the closest shop and get a written estimate of finishing the car the way he was supposed to finish it. Pay that man the difference of his estimate and the new shops estimate. This way you have a broken contract, and you made good on what he completed in your contract. No small claims court will fault you for this. I've been screwed and have seen people screw others in the same manner this guy is screwing you... Good Luck and I hope everything works out for you.... And as a reminder get everything in writing.. it might cost you more up front, but it will save you in the long run!

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X-Ray View of my Chevelle :D (http://www.normieschevelle.com/sideview.jpg)
Getting Closer (http://www.normieschevelle.com/passfull.jpg)
my baby in primer (http://www.normieschevelle.com/prime/primerdrv.jpg)

Karl
Thanks for the sound advice, I would like to see Jim the shop owner finish the job, but I am concerned that I might just get the same old run around. I really don't have a problem with him slipping jobs in front of my son's car (he is doing this to make a living) but it would have helped if he would have just communicate this to me(which he has not done). I am flexable and willing to work with him. Nothing can be ganed from being a hard nose.
Should he be willing to work it out, then so will I. But as you said in your reply that if he would like out of this project and we can come to an agreement on price for work done then it may be best for everyone to part ways.
Who knows maybe a talk could be just the thing to get this all ironed out.
But I must said that unless I feel that Jim is truly commented to finishing the job then I will be taking the car home with me.
I hope that Jim nad I can see each others side of things and be able to come to a soild understanding. Hope for the best but be able to handel the worst.

John
Thanks for the reply.
I hope things turn out better for me than they did for you.
But as with most things I expect a person to keep their word, because I must set an example for my family so when I give my word I WILL stand by it. A man is only as good as his word. I never have liked being jurked around, and always try to do business with people that are honest and upfront. I understand that things happen and I have always be willing to work things out, but I do have my limts. If a person always puts their best foot forward then things will work out.
Just don't pee on my leg and tell me thats its raining!
Mike

Normie, maybe the laws in your state are different, but there is NO WAY a customer can remove a vehicle from my shop unless they have one of the following: A court order, payment in full of the bill in a manner that is acceptable to me (cash or method of payment of MY choosing), or I am stupid and leave it outside so they can steal it back. We are not some scum bag, low life repair facility, however we have on many occasions dealt with scum bag, low life customers. We have a legal system that settles disputes, when all else fails. Been to small claims court twice in 16 years, won both times. Been through arbitration at Small Business bureau once, after all my efforts to help customer were rejected. Arbitrator told person to pound sand. A legitimate business will do almost anything to settle a dispute in a fair and balanced manner. My advice to mpar is based on reasonable people, trying to find closure to a bad experience. I always assume the best of both parties, until proven otherwise, however, any good business must protect themselves from those few that don't play by the rules. No police officer in his right mind, in our area, would do as you suggest. Ever had your car towed from private property when it was illegally parked there? You WILL pay to get it back. Posession is first and formost in this type of situation. This is a civil issue and Police will not intervene unless it becomes criminal, assault, trespass etc. Send all these posts to your attorney, very interested in legal opinion. Discussion and negotiation are the best options available to mpar. It is way too soon in this process to resort to any of the measures you suggest. It may feel good to think about your options but outcome may not be desirable. By the way normie, how is your car doing? Keep waiting to see pictures of it painted. mpar, good luck, karl

normie
I would perfer to settle this in a calm and respectful matter if possable, should Jim the shop owner let him emotions get the better part of him then I would pay the man for the work performed. If he has done the work then he should be payed for his efforts. This way we will have cut our ties with each other and both of us can get on to more important things.
As I have stated in the above post I feel it is necessary for me to set an excample for my children, if they see me getting all bent out of shape then they could beleive that it is acceptable to act in a matter that is less than becoming.
Hopefully Jim and myself can act like adults and come to an understanding that is acceptable to all.
Either way I will insist that the car is completed in a timely matter and that he should take pride in his work as it is a reflection of himself.
Mike

Why is this a recurring theme?

I feel for you Mike. Been there done that. In the end, the shop our stuff was at went under and two of Dad's cars were unfinished after 2 years and $8000 of pre-paid work. My hood, trunk lid, and doors were completed, but I had to bounce em. He started to redo the hood before he closed, so I can't use it now. Unless of course I pay someone to fix it again, after I already paid $1000. Pisses me off to no end. I just put the trunk lid on because it was still better than when it was taken off the car.

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my 67 droptop (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/mychevelle2.jpg)

Interior (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/interior.jpg)

big block (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/motor.jpg)
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Dad's 67 droptop (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/dads67.jpg)

I call it Body Shop Prison.
Unless the Shop is a 100% resto shop. 995 of the time Cars like ours are FILL IN work.
As long as Insurance jobs are in process " You will go to the rear of the line . PERIOUD. No shop mananger would or shoud deviate from that practice.
But as the car owners Frustration runs High as your car sits and sits and sits in BSP.

It's a matter of simple economics, unfortunately. He was wron to promise a date if he was viewed a fill in cash work.
I agree on the diplomatic approach. IMO you never get anything setteled by posturing.

If he's been in business sience 78 he been around the block a few times. Talk to him try to work out a satisfactory UNDERSTANDING
of how your son'scar will be handled.

Now if you had taken it to LMC on Dream car garage. He fixed the font cowl and heater box plenum on a early Mustang. And for $5,000. aprox to fix. I am sure he went to the FRONT of the line. and to top that off that was just in the rough welded in and primed according to the shows host!!!!

Wayne

Ps in PA you can't Just go get your car ether,

Please don't take this as you need to walk in tell him off and leave.. I am simply saying it is time you pulled your car out of there.. If you can agree on a price then great.. However, his son has completed work on your car which you can not guarantee is quality work. The gentleman has strung you along, and has been rude to your son. If you go over there and offer him less than 3 grand for shoddy work, he might say "Your not taking a damn thing" and leave you standing in the cold! You NEED to be prepared for that! In NJ if you tell a police officer that the owner will not release your vehicle to you, they will remove it for you! I believe this is the same anywhere, especially where you or the owner has nothing in writing... It is YOUR property, not the shop owners! That is the basic law.. Many owners think they deserver way to much money for screwing you around for months and not finishing the project. I've seen it, and had it done to me a long time ago. Let's put it this way.. If the owner had a signed estimate from you and did not pay as agreed, he could take your car! What do you get when the shoe is on the other foot! By all means try being nice.. But you will most likely get shoddy work from him from the point you sit down with him.. (my opinion) it's just best all around to find someone else to finish the job.. Would you pay for a meal if it wasn't what you ordered? How about 3000 bucks for a computer that wasn't what you expected?.. My current stress level must have come through on the first post http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif Good Luck either way you go!

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X-Ray View of my Chevelle :D (http://www.normieschevelle.com/sideview.jpg)
Getting Closer (http://www.normieschevelle.com/passfull.jpg)
my baby in primer (http://www.normieschevelle.com/prime/primerdrv.jpg)

A note from the body shop side. I don't run or work (professionally) in a body shop, but spend a lot of time in one (my best friend is a body shop owner). First of all, regardless of whether your car is a "fill-in", your agreement with the body man, whether verbal or written, is a contract. The terms agreed to are binding and can not be changed without negotiation. If things are not going as per the agreement, then the terms have obviously changed. How the negotiations are accomplished is another matter. On a personal note, if I was unhappy with the quality or progress of the work, I would find another body shop. I agree with your statement that payment should be made for the work done - of course, that will be subject to negotiation as well. On another note, the $3000 price is probably based on a "fill-in" level of work. Body shops in my area generally charge $35 to $40 per hour for collision repair/insurance work. If the same rate were charged for restoration level work, few of us would be able to afford it. My buddy does restorations on a fill-in basis only, but it is clearly communicated to the customer that this is the case up front, and there are generally no deadlines set. Duration of the job is determined by the amount of insurance work coming in the door. There are many requirements placed on collison repair businesses by the insurance companies, so there is not much choice in the matter. If scheduled finish times are the driving issue, then the price goes up so that the bill get paid while insurance jobs are turned down. As it was said in another post, it is simple economics. It's also possible that your body man is taking greater pains in his work to do a quality job, and as a result, taking longer to finish. However, if this is the case, he should be able to explain what is being done (and should really consult with you first if the completion date is affected as a result).

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1967 Chevelle Malibu; 1955 Chevy Wagon;
1978 Ford F150 4WD

Thanks for all the replys.
I will undate after sept 27 to let everyone know how it turned out.
Mike

Here in MO you can not just go get your car. How do I know this, lesson learned the hard way. In 1987 the body shop working on my Camaro went under. The owner of the building confiscated everything in the shop, my car as well. He was owed back rent and he was going to get paid. He planned on auctioning everything off to settle the debt owed him. The landlord knew the car was mine and didn't give a damn. I had to pay 110.00 to get a court order to remove my vehicle and everything that belonged to it. A county deputy had to be present while I collected my car and everything that went with it. Sad part is I had to do it all over again with the next body shop when he left town and headed for PA. The second body shop took all my new GM sheetmetal and used it for another Camaro, ins. job and what he didn't use on that Camaro he sold back to a dealership to get credit on his account. Had to get a court order and Jackson county sheriff to get my car back again.

In Minnesota the police WILL NOT interfere, unless the cop is your brother-in-law. They will separate parties, diffuse situation, make a report. For them to assist in removing car, the owner would probably have to report it stolen. That would open another legal problem, giving false report to a police officer. When I have posession of a vehicle I have to protect it and contents. I also have to protect my company. I have been there in a situation where customer wanted to take vehicle without paying bill that was authorized. We both called local authorities, they removed him, not the vehicle, he lost in small claims court. mpar is in a different position as he just wants the shop to fulfill their responsibility. I am on his side ALL THE WAY. Our industry gets beat up enough, without us bringing it on ourselves, by failing in our commitment to serve the customer. If the shop owner cares at all about reputation and ethics, he should do what ever is possible to fulfill his commitment, in a timely and quality manner. If he cannot, then he should heavily discount the work actually completed, settle with mpar and apologize. It makes me crazy when I hear these horror stories. It is clear to me that just because someone can fix a car, it doesn't mean they should be in business. Many of the business failures described (in my opinion) are caused because shop owner can't price product properly, manage business effectively, or in some circumstances, their life. Karl

Thanks for the info. Been looking for a paint shop and have hear of the body shops from hell. I now know some of the things to lookout for and questions to ask.

Except now I am really paranoid about turning my el camino over to a shop.

Just incase the body shop guy Jim is unable to finish my sons car I call a shop in Lee's Summit Mo. The guy that I talked with was up front, he told me that he work on these kind of jobs but they are "fill in's".
Ofcourse I want the car finished, but I am willing to work with the shop no matter who ends up with the car as long as they contact me letting me know what is going on.
Commutation is the key word here.
Mike

This is the reason why i am going to do the bodywork/paint on my car. I will not have the time or cash to pay someone to have a car sit for months and nothing getting done. If i cant do a certain thing the i will take it in. Now i just need to learn how to weld. Can you say hack job? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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Rob
1970 chevelle malibu
454 soon to be 496/Muncie M-20
RATIFIED
(out of commission as of now)
"Mind Over Matter"
If I believe I can pull this resto off I will then be able to.

I just realized that I am going about this all wrong.
What I should have done was to get full coverage, then drive the car into a TREE http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif
I then would be able to take it to any shop that I wanted to, they would get me right in and have it fixed and back to me in no time:cool
What was I thinking http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Can't help but make one final comment. I bought my 66 Elky in the fall, drove it ONE month, put in storage. Had some free time in winter, no snow, shop slow, brought it out of storage to "paint". Eight years later it is still in BODY SHOP HELL. Total restoration full frame off, http://www.chevelles.com/forum/redface.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/redface.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/redface.gif My goal now is to make it to Chevellabration 03. THAT is MY definition of "BSH" Sometimes we shop people don't treat ourselves any better than our customers. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif Karl

update
A few day ago I call Jim the shop owner and left a voice message telling him that I hoped that he did not take my last message the wrong way, that I feel that it would help it I come down to see the car and talk things over.
Well I went down this morning with a box of Donuts in hand. He was friendly and open to conversation. We checked out the car, Jim showed me what had been done and what was left to do. From what I seen the car is shaping up nicely. I would say that he is roughly half way done with the body work.
I did explane that I understand that he needs to do the insurance jobs over my sons car because he can make more from them that he will on a car like my sons. Jim echo for the most part what "more ambition than brains" and others had said. I asked if there is anything that I could do to help Jim. We then started talking about money and agreed that I would pay for what has been done so far (as a show of faith). I feel that
everything went real well and Jim will do a good job as well, he did say that he will "try" to finish the car by next month. I told him that I would appreiate if he could do that, even through I do know that you never know what might come in the door next. Over all it went well and I feel that Jim will get the car done and do a good job.
I am glad that I went to see him and talk things over. I do beleive that it would be best to leave my son (youth/testosterone) out of it at this time and let me take care of it.
Thanks for all the Replys, they have been alot of help. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif
Mike

Stop by unannounced next week, and the next. It does provide motivation. Give him NO more $$$ till done. Take an interest in what he is doing. If there is no progress in your next two visits, suggest that as the collision season is nearly here, it would be in his best interest to get it done! Remind him that you do not want it there all winter that there are many more things to do on car, and that driving in snow is not an option. If nothing has gotten done, and you have any sense that he is BSing you, revert to normie's advice. Get it out of there. Sounds like you have already cleared up $$. If you have to take it out, and can identify that you paid for more than you should have, there is always small claims court. You are being more than reasonable, now it is his turn to perform! Good Luck Karl

Based on the body work allowance which would be around $1900 I payed for the work done so far which was about 50%, I hoped that this would put the ball in his court. I did express to him that we do have more things to do to the car and I am needing to "wrap" this project up so that I can go onto other things. I went into detail, besides working 50+ hours a week I also help my father on the farm, both of my sons play football all the honey do's ect. ect. so as with most everyone else, my time is spoken for. So when I take on or help with something else other things get put off. If I were to get this car done complete then that would free me up for other things. (Maybe like a day off). Granted in the winter time things do slow down guite a bit, so I dont mind running my a## off the rest of the year.
I do plan on dropping in on Jim ever so often (during the week), I can go to work early and take off in the afternoon so that I will be able to catch him at the shop.
Mike

[This message has been edited by mpar (edited 09-28-2002).]

Read the post by MARTINSR confessions of a body shop owner. 9-25-2002. Lots of useful information.
I just in the midst of this "ritual". My body man is no different than most I'm finding out. I do plan on taking MARTINSR's advice and try to hurry up the process a little by trying to pay on my project as it progresses. Good luck, sounds like a little communication and some smiles went a lomg way towards an end. What kind of donuts did you buy http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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1969 El Camino SS 396

A dream coming true
She says it's a nightmare

[This message has been edited by Dwight_69SS (edited 09-29-2002).]

Glaze http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif