Guys, My name is DG (long term member in Ohio).

I am an Assistant Scout Master in my sons Troop (Troop 311, Lagonda District, Springfield, Ohio). I also seem to be the only "car guy" leader.

Our Troop picked up a 16 passanger bus (86 Ford E-350 conversion), that we have done a lot of work to (rebuilt transmission, tires, brakes, etc).

Now the sponsoring Church wants individual seat belts. Factory bus belts are kinda pricey, especially for a Scout budget. The leaders, like myself have kept costs down by doing much of the work, and rebuilding or repairing parts.

I have a couple sets of 70 Chevelle lap belts that I can make work if I mock up some simple brackets (I can do that). But I only have 2 sets.

So, I can afford shipping, but I need some donated belts. Color and exact year is not important, but belts can't be rotten or cut from the buckle or metal-bolt tab. I can use the belts from the retractor side too.

If you got a couple extra you can throw my way let me know. I need ~14 pairs.

We also need a cheap set of gauges (water, oil) for the Ford 460 block (at least it's a big-block). :)

Send me an email: chevelle70@woh.rr.com - for my address.

Yours in Scouting,
http://cspack173.com/tecumseh.gif
DG

are you sure those are long enough? aren't the seats raised off the floor? also have you check with the state safety board? i know in most states, belts are not even mandatory in busses. so i'm thinking if you put belts in, and even though they may not be mandatorty, if something were to happen, it might make you liable. what your doing is great, i just don't want you to have problems after the fact....

How about calling a local salvage yard, if you tell them they're for the Scouts, they may even donate them..

You should put out a want ad on racingjunk.com for used belts. I'm sure there's racers out there with expired SFI stuff laying around, that would be glad to help. The kids would probably love that, too. 5 and 6 point harnesses on the bus. ;)

deffinetly look to local buisnesses and junkyards when i was in boyscouts and getting my eagle scout we got alot of donations for differnet things and eagle projects from hardwear stores and whatnot so deffinetly check them out and dont forget to tell them its a tax write off...

best of luck

Ryan Billings troop 144 deer isle maine

eagle since 03

The Church wants the belts.

We have a leader who works for I.H., and the factory bus-belts are rigidly mounted to the seat frame, not to the floor. I asked that same question.

We know what factory belts look like, and run ~$16 per set x 16 sets ($256+install hardware). Those new belts are not as nice as the 30 year old GM belts I have.

I will check to see if there is some ruling to convice the church otherwise (aftermarket add-on belts).

The local yards are not really into this kind of support, we have tried to get help with transmission parts, etc....

also then you might want to talk to your local police and fire departments i know our local fire department used to use old cars for practice and whatnot and if we ever needed anything they were more than willing to help.

wish i had belts id gladly send them to ya

You may want to have someone check liability on this. I know the church wants to protect the kids but could installing your own belts open them up to a suit if there's ever an accident and one fails?

I did some checking on the seat belts. The vehicle is a 1986 E-350 conversion. They were not required to have passenger belts at that time.

We do not appear to be covered under "school bus" rules.

I may need to ping my DE (District Executive) to see if this has come up before in Scouting.

I agree with the other poster that said although you're trying to do a good deed, I would not even think about installing non-factory belts. I am a forensic engineer (we do accident recon and product liability) and you would not believe what some lawyers will go after (and win.) If an accident were to happen, I can almost guarantee that you will be in for a world of hurt (regardless of whether the seatbelts are safe/unsafe.) Just my .02...

The Church wants the belts.

We have a leader who works for I.H., and the factory bus-belts are rigidly mounted to the seat frame, not to the floor. I asked that same question.

We know what factory belts look like, and run ~$16 per set x 16 sets ($256+install hardware). Those new belts are not as nice as the 30 year old GM belts I have.

I will check to see if there is some ruling to convice the church otherwise (aftermarket add-on belts).

The local yards are not really into this kind of support, we have tried to get help with transmission parts, etc....
Have each one of the kids parents ante up $16 for factory seat belts. I'd gladly pay 100. Even if I couldn't afford it.

You may want to have someone check liability on this. I know the church wants to protect the kids but could installing your own belts open them up to a suit if there's ever an accident and one fails?

DG, Kurt brings up a good point. It's sad state of affairs, but the dreaded L word has to be considered. Our church just got rid of their passenger van because of insurance and no one had the proper license. (CDL)?

I am Scoutmaster of Troop 404 here in town so I can relate to the low/no budget situation. Here's a couple of ideas you might be able to use to raise money for the correct belts.

We do a hot dog sale at Lowes once a month for the boys to raise money for camp/outings/etc. On any given Saturday from 10-3 we clear anywhere from $300-$500. after spending about $200. on food and sodas. We give the sodas away for a donation and sell the dog for 1.50 or for 2.00 a combo dog/chips/soda. I understand Wal-mart will do this AND match up to 1,000. in donations.

The other thing we did a few years ago when we wanted to raise money to purchase new canoes, the committee embarked on a letter writing campaign to local businesses soliciting donations. Within 6 months time we raised $2,800. and purchased (8) 16' Mohawk Blazers, paddles, throw ropes, etc.

BSA is well thought of and you will be amazed the help that is offered....you just need to ask.

Best of Luck to you and your Scouts.

The boys do a really good job of fundraising selling popcorn, food events and such for camp and the basic gear. They even did the concessions at my local Chevelle Club show this year, with almost 100% participation. So far they have only been part of the big purchase of the bus.

Fundraising is a touchy subject with the B.S.A.. As the chartering organization (i.e. Church) owns the Troop/Pack we have to be careful about crossing into grey areas. The Troop/Pack cannot offer any kind of tax write off without involving our local Council. I know Troops/Packs do all kinds of things that are not "by the book", and asking questions like these has been know to cause all kinds of problems. I know, I asked a bunch at "Woodbadge" last year, and eventually most attendees got really quiet when the Regional B.S.A. Pro. laid it out.

It's a misconception, but I know is done all the time, that Troops/Packs are non-profit and can solicit funds directly from businesses. We use the Church'es Tax ID for banking purposes and purchases, but the Troop/Pack is not "non-profit" by themselves. They are also (I can't speak for all) prohibited from direct solicitation in B.S.A's name. They can only participate in fund raising events where the Council has approved, like Popcorn.

The other events, like selling hot dogs (like you and I have done) have rules too, like they cannot be done in Class A uniforms, and must have approval of your local council, hence the Fund Raising Request form.

Fundrasing in the Church's or chartering organizations name is wide open (they have thier own rules I bet), but not to be done in the B.S.A. uniform or in the name of the B.S.A..

I do appreciate you guys replying, as I know Scouting is important long after you have grown up. Some of us get to return to Scouting" through our sons (and daughters).

I think the ideas of getting the parents to "sponsor a factory belt" is probably the safest way to go all the way around.

So, I will "remove the email request".

Thanks

I'm an Eagle Scout, and I'm on our troop committee. My responsibility is transportation... I make sure everythings "legit" when our troop travels.
I've also happened to use my seatbelt in my van.
http://nastyz28.com/astro/van1.jpg
5 people (barely) got out of that alive. Obviously what was left over went to the junk yard.

Don't get anything safety related from the junkyard. My belts were used up.
http://nastyz28.com/astro/P6180032t.jpg

You can buy DOT approved belt sets for $20/each. Basically a simple lap belt anchored on either side of the seat. If I was approached to buy $20 worth of seat belts so my kid could travel in the scout van I wouldn't hesitate to cough up the $.

I also help people restore muscle cars. I've talked about seat belts 3 times today... helping people retro belts into old muscle cars so the owners kids can ride in the car and be safe.... I'm not afraid to voice my opinion on having good safety equipment. You never know when it'll be needed. And if it ever is needed - it better work (i.e. be in good condition).

Lastly, in order to work, it needs to be in use. I usually don't have to tell scouts riding with me to buckle up, but if they don't, they will buckle up before we go anywhere.

The boys do a really good job of fundraising selling popcorn, food events and such for camp and the basic gear. They even did the concessions at my local Chevelle Club show this year, with almost 100% participation. So far they have only been part of the big purchase of the bus.



The troop my son belonged to makes a lot of money from their Christmas Tree pickup. It's free, but they ask for a "suggested donation" which last year was $7. Many people leave more than that. Over the last few years they have been able to purchase 6 canoes and a trailer to tow them. Parents and leaders with trucks volunteer, people leave them at the curb, and they have arrangements with a local tree service to grind them up for mulch.

>They were not required to have passenger belts at that time.

To get a tour permit you must fill out what vehicles will be transporting kids.
The # of kids in the vehicle. And the # of seat belts in the vehicle.

I.e. my suburban, I can take 7 kids plus me. If I say 10 people are travelling in the thing, but there's only 8 seat belts... I'm 2 short and the tour permit will be rejected. Not having a tour permit means you're not covered by the BSA for that trip.

Put belts in the van. It's the right thing to do. You won't get sued for doing the right thing, plus you'll be covered by the BSA.

> You won't get sued for doing the right thing...

Nasty, please dont take this the wrong way (or as argumentative,) but right/wrong will have little or no relevance if there is an accident and an experienced attorney gets involved.
The only way to go when other people are involved is FACTORY belts. :beers:

NastyZ28,

I checked the trip permit and it says,

d. Seat belts are provided, and must be used, by all passengers and driver.
Exception: A school or commercial bus

The bus we have is not a passenger van, it is a conversion. More like an air port shuttle.

But in all, I will push for factory belts. I might even whip up a "Buy-A-Belt" flyer for the boys to take home.

Thanks

Why not go with a full size LWB 18 passenger van like what the airports use? Basically those long E series Ford vans? Did you get this bus so cheap as to make it work somehow just because of that?

Reason I ask is because those 18 passenger Vans will have the proper seatbelts installed in the first place right from the factory.

The van/shuttle was cheap, since the transmission was bad.

There were several other issues we have worked on too. The last thing will be to get the air conditioning working. It has both dash air, and a conversion unit underneath.

It did not come with passenger seat belts since it was an 86. I think it was more like 18 seats. We took two out to be at the B.S.A. 15 passenger limit to drive without a CDL. When my son crossed over the Troop grew to 20 boys. After the next crossover in 07 the Troop will increase by 7 or more. The Troop is young, so we do not have but a couple boys around 15, so not much attrition.

>but right/wrong will have little or no relevance if there is an accident and an experienced attorney gets involved.

I see your point, and/but we all know you can be sued by anyone, for anything at anytime. However, your chance of getting in trouble (or taken to the cleaners) if you do the right thing and still have a problem is usually limited. If you're negligent, then it still may be limited. I'm speaking from experience here. The other party was grossly negligent and underinsured, and I was still screwed. I had top shelf representation too, not some ambulance chaser.

Which brings me to this important point:
Have the appropriate insurance - whoever touches the big van. If you read your policy, there's usually a per person and per incident threshhold. Keep in mind if your responsible for 10 people in a van getting hurt, at $50K/per (generous)... that's $500,000. Most folks simply get the 100/300 and consider it adaquate. Especially dealing with kids... they usually get 1st class treatment. Me & 1 of my boys basically had the same injuries and the same treatment. I cost $2500. My son cost $12500. So you can easily be in the hook for a pile of cash... which is where insurance comes in. A CDL is required for someone engaged in commercial activity (except in Georgia and if you're underage and operating a quasi-biz on a shoe string). Transporting scouts to an event is a non-commercial activity. The assumption with a CDL is the person operating the vehicle will be qualified (trained) to do so and will be appropriately insured. Anyone here at work who touches work vehicles for any reason has a CDL.

re: Exception: A school or commercial bus

School buses (the yellow ones) and commercial buses (i.e. grayhound, trailways...) don't have seat belts. So they're stating the obvious in the rules. All other vehicles should have belts.
My origonal blab about "doing the right thing" -
consider: allowing kids to ride in a van/bus/conversion without belts. Even though the vehicle may not be required by law to have belts. The BSA requires them. So they won't cover you. If anyone gets hurt, and you've opted to allow kids to travel in an unsafe vehicle (i.e. one without belts) - that's the definition of negligent. And now you're on the hook bigtime. If you take all precautionary measures and still some folks get hurt - that's called an accident, and the insurance usually will address that.

Call your council, BSA is tax exempt as far as I recall, and they may have the ID number. Scouts don't need seatbelts, they just tie themselves in.

YIS
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