Well I'm fixing to to dive into the body work on my '70 and have a few questions. The fille panel below my back glass has a few rust pits in but not all the way through. I had a guy suggest using All Metal body filler in this area. Good or bad idea? I'm also taking the chrome off of my fenders and doors, weld up the holes or use the same stuff? What kind of body filler do you guys recomend for the rest of the body or do I use the above mentioned as well. Thanks for the input and suggestions.

If you have a hole weld it up, forget about the all metal, duraglas filler is what you want, none of the fillers are moisture proof, but duraglas is the best at not retaining moisture.

Once you grind that weld down, if you could spray some epoxy on that bare metal, then use the filler, then k38, thats pretty much first cabin.

Rob

I agree with Rob, clean the metal first then apply two coats of epoxy primer and allow to setup overnight, then use Duraglass or Everglass or Marglass on any heavily pitted areas and on seams where strength may be a concern. Finish the work with Evercoat's Rage Extreme or similar. Sandblast all those pitted areas.

I've done some testing here in Roadsalt Country and find the Allmetal type fillers to be junk compared to Everglass, nobody uses the stuff in this area anymore because it just doesn't hold up as well in these conditions.


http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3817/11blendingtheseamsqu0.th.jpg (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11blendingtheseamsqu0.jpg)

Weld! Weld! Weld!! I broke down and bought a Lincoln mig welder from Indiana Oxygen and what an unbelievable tool this is. If you've never welded before, get an old hood or fender, grind a spot where there's a hole comparable to the one you want to fill on your car, and practice. It won't take you long to get the hang of it. Try adjusting the heat until you burn a hole into the practice piece, then back off a little on the dial. You need penetration of the weld to make it stick properly. This method of practice will help you get it. Also go for the instant darkening helmet from the get-go. No more flipping down the helmet to weld. So easy!!

On welding up the holes does it need a piece of metal behind the hole? I think the trim holes are about 1/4". This epoxy is it a type of primer? Thanks for the info.

Go to search and type in (welding trim holes). Try that first, if you still aren't comfortable re post.

Rob

Epoxy is a primer, I would search (epoxy primer). You can learn a lot with a search.

Rob

I have had far better luck with All Metal than with Duraglass.
I was a die hard Duraglass user until about 12-13 yrs ago. Have had zero problems with All Metal. I have used it over epoxy for filling pits many times.
It doesn't get much saltier in the winter than it is here.

As far as welding up 1/4" holes- guys place a piece of brass behind the hole if possible to keep the welds in the hole. The brass does not stick to steel welding wire or incorporate into the weld. Keep a wet rag on hand to cool the area and don't hit it too hard with the welder to reduce the chance of warpage.
I buy epoxy primer from PIVCO in Indiana. They sell Kirker brand epoxy primer for less than $90- a hell of a lot better than the $180 I spent locally for the "name brand" epoxy prime! They have a catalog > 1-800-468-6894.

I use DP 40 on the bare metal, Duraglas filler over this, K200 next, paint over this. Never had any issues.

Thanks for all the input. Looks like I'm going to start on the body this weekend. Thanks again.

On welding up the holes does it need a piece of metal behind the hole? I think the trim holes are about 1/4". This epoxy is it a type of primer? Thanks for the info.


Chris, check out Southern Polyurethane's Inc. for some top quality epoxy primer at very reasonable prices (CHEAP!), they sell it in quarts and gallons. It's the best I've ever used. http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/index.htm

Sorry guys, but All Metal does not absorb moisture like plastic based fillers. The reason Bondo that is jammed into rust holes bubbles is because it sucks up moisture and grows. Many years ago for a magazine, I performed a test. We made a ball of Lightweight plastic filler, a ball of Duraglass and a ball of All Metal. We weighed each ball on a triple beam, then threw them in water over night. Next day both the Lightweight plastic and Duraglass (which is just reinforced plastic filler) gained substantial weight, the all metal gained NO weight. This is a fact, I welcome you to try this.

Now sanding All metal, now that is a real treat, but worth the effort. We still use it on panel seams and NEVER have the raising in the sun issues that Duraglass and other plastic fillers have in heavy applications, like a quarter to roof seam. In fact I have a $50K paint job in here from another shop we are digging out the Duraglass in the quarter seams as we speak and re shooting the car because the seams grow in the 100 degree heat down here.

The European's have a system that does not put anything against bare metal except epoxy, then do all filler work on top of the epoxy. This is a good system as long as there is sufficient cure time to avoid shrinking and roll back. Now if you are using the European method of Epoxy before any fillers (which we do except on seams), All metal may not adhere well to epoxy. We use Extreme Rage and Polyester Spray filler. The good stuff, no Slick Sand crap.

Address two issues.

Trim Holes - I use two diff. methods. One - install a steel pop rivet for filler metal, grind flush on face with a flap wheel, mig weld, then finish off both sides. Yes, a couple of extra steps, but it makes for a perfect job. Two - flatten a piece of copper tubing (3/4" TY-L water tubing) and use this as a backer to weld against. Only issue with doing this is, the copper has to be dead flat against the back of the panel - no gaps - or you will burn the egde right off. In most spots, it is very hard, if not impoosible to hold the copper against the back flat while welding from the other side, that's the main reason a just use the steel pop rivet method.

Regarding All Metal : I did an emmersion test also. Took some cured All Metal no more than 1/8" thick and submersed it for 1 week in water. It showed no signs of softening or swelling after 1 week under water.

Sorry guys, but All Metal does not absorb moisture like plastic based fillers. The reason Bondo that is jammed into rust holes bubbles is because it sucks up moisture and grows. Many years ago for a magazine, I performed a test. We made a ball of Lightweight plastic filler, a ball of Duraglass and a ball of All Metal. We weighed each ball on a triple beam, then threw them in water over night. Next day both the Lightweight plastic and Duraglass (which is just reinforced plastic filler) gained substantial weight, the all metal gained NO weight. This is a fact, I welcome you to try this.

Now sanding All metal, now that is a real treat, but worth the effort. We still use it on panel seams and NEVER have the raising in the sun issues that Duraglass and other plastic fillers have in heavy applications, like a quarter to roof seam. In fact I have a $50K paint job in here from another shop we are digging out the Duraglass in the quarter seams as we speak and re shooting the car because the seams grow in the 100 degree heat down here.


That's pretty much been my experience also.
I usually grind or coarse machine sand ALL Metal than go over it with Rage X.

I also think the All Metal is a finer or creamier product and adheres in small pits better than the coarser Duraglass.
Prodigy, any opinions/tests on that?

Opinion, yes, test, no. It would seem you are correct in thinking the Duraglass would bridge small voids. We do not use Duraglass on car bodies. We do use Duraglass a lot on our stereo fabrication. I know when I grind into thick areas of the Duraglass it is not uncommon to have large voids (pin holes or crators in this case) in the middle of the mixture. So it would not surprise me to find voids against irregular surfaces like pitting.

We use a mud hog with 80 and knock the All Metal down, block with 80 and then use Xtreme Rage for finish work.

All Metal is expensive as fillers go, and hard as hell to sand, so I imagine a lot of shops turn their nose up to it.

Well went and bought my paint supplies and body work materials today. I talked with the man at my local paint and body supply house. He pretty much told me the same thing that Prodigy Customs did. I bought all metal filler for the minor rust pits and seams and some Rage 100106 in a purpleish colored can. He said that there was a better filler made by Rage but was out of it. Do I use this filler or wait until he gets the other in stock? Thanks again for all the input.

Your cool with Rage, Extreme Rage is just more money, but no real benifits I see. But we use it anyways, LOL!

Double post, sorry

We use a mud hog with 80 and knock the All Metal down, block with 80 and then use Xtreme Rage for finish work.


What is a mud hog?

What is a mud hog?

Bondo eater, Bondo hog, 8" DA

Gotcha. Never heard it called that

Been hangin round the rednecks down here to long I reckon!

Frank, I'm copying and paste, only way I how to quote. Heres what you just said.


Now sanding All metal, now that is a real treat, but worth the effort. We still use it on panel seams and NEVER have the raising in the sun issues that Duraglass and other plastic fillers have in heavy applications, like a quarter to roof seam. In fact I have a $50K paint job in here from another shop we are digging out the Duraglass in the quarter seams as we speak and re shooting the car because the seams grow in the 100 degree heat down here.

The European's have a system that does not put anything against bare metal except epoxy, then do all filler work on top of the epoxy. This is a good system as long as there is sufficient cure time to avoid shrinking and roll back. Now if you are using the European method of Epoxy before any fillers (which we do except on seams), All metal may not adhere well to epoxy. We use Extreme Rage and Polyester Spray filler.
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All metal does not adhere well to epoxy, then you're saying you put all metal on your seams, how do you keep the moisture from working it's way into the seams.

You're also saying if there is sufficient cure time, the filler over epoxy is okay.

Duraglas and extreme rage are two all together different products, if you put epoxy over bare metal then duraglas over the epoxy, let it cure right, there should be no problems.

You said you're digging the duraglas out of a $50,000 paint job, just because the duraglas failed, maybe they didn't let it cure right.

I have researched the three forums extensively on epoxy, duraglas and all metal, and what I have read, is all metal isn't that good.

As far as pricey, it doesn't matter to me if it's a little more money, I would use it, but theres to much stuff out there about all metal isn't that good.

I would think a body seam would be more susceptible to moisture and rust then any part on a car.

Don't take this question the wrong way, I respect your opinions, and learn a lot from experienced body men like yourself, but if something doesn't sound right I will question it.

Rob

Lets use a floor pan as an example.

Floor pan supports are spot welded to the pan, and there is small gaps in between and around the spot welds.

Lets say you sand, wire brush or sand or bead or whatever, blast the pans and supports.

A lot, or the majority of 40 year old pans and supports are pock marked and pitted.

So some body filler here on our bare metal, if you want them perfect, you will need to get that filler at the edge of those supports, and a little bit under the edge.

If you spray like an epoxy for example, you can get that epoxy under that flange fairly good, if not by spraying, with a short bristle brush you can dab it in there lightly.

Back to the filler, without epoxy under it, if you force the filler under those gaps, you still can't get it in there like a liguid epoxy. If you only use filler, you will probably loose that factory gap.

Rob

Maybe I was not clear trying to make a already long post not any longer. On seems and big voids like a quarter panel to roof seem, a area that has a LOT of girth to it, after spot blasting, after welding, we All Metal those Seems before epoxy. To further explain it without writing a book, The epoxy first, fill later method is specifically intended to prevent plastic based fillers from sweating against bare metal. It is not uncommon to pick off old plastic filler and find the bare metal orange under it. Anyway, Because plastic fillers are undeniably absorbent and All metal is not, it would appear there is not the same danger of sweating issue with All Metal. Also, we stitch weld solid all our work, so there is no danger of contamination from the back side. On overlapped panels like floor pans on a original, we do not fill those seems with anything if the factory did not seal them as that would not be correct restoration. IF the factory sealed those seems it would have been done with a seem sealer, which we would use a 2 part seam sealer over epoxy. If we are doing a custom that requires the seems disappear, we would stitch solid weld those seems. As far as filling pits, we use a high end polyester spray filler that goes up to 50 mils, over the epoxy.

s far a sufficient cure time, I am referring to letting both the epoxy and the plastic filler sufficient time to clear to bond to one another. I did not mean to use All metal over the epoxy, although that may be OK, I just have not tried it, and usually problems from these test do not show up for quite some time, and I do not feel like performing this test, LOL!!

Here are some pics. Sorry for the picture quality

And do not worry about questioning me. I sometimes do not communicate well when typing. Lisa may tell you I do not communicate well at all, LOL!

What do you use to sand down the All Metal filler, regular DA or something else? Thanks again.

8" DA or Bondo Eater as many call it

Frank, your quote.
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(Because plastic fillers are undeniably absorbent and All metal is not, it would appear there is not the same danger of sweating issue with All Metal. Also, we stitch weld solid all our work, so there is no danger of contamination from the back.)
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You said it (appears) there is no danger of a sweating issue. I guess you could say there is a possibility of sweating.

All metal is spread on bare metal and ground welds, but when lead was put on these cars, heat was part of the process to bond the lead to the bare metal.

Anytime you weld on metal, it's a sure bet it will rust at the weld area quicker then any other place on the panel.

Technology changes, but at this point, epoxy is the best thing out there as far as sealing moisture out.

You also said.
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(On overlapped panels like floor pans on a original, we do not fill those seems with anything if the factory did not seal them as that would not be correct restoration. IF the factory sealed those seems it would have been done with a seem sealer, which we would use a 2 part seam sealer over epoxy.)
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So you're saying you don't seal overlapped floor pans on the bottom because it is not correct. I did some more research and found, what they believe, but it is still a little up in the air on what they used, depended upon what factory built the car. Some are saying red oxide on the floor pans and rose primer on the trunk. There are a few posts on this if you search body filler, it takes a while to find all of it, but most of this information is coming from our more knowledgeable people on correct restoration.

I don't think there is anything absolute on this from what I read.

So I would think putting epoxy on this bare metal then painting it with whatever would duplicate the original would be as close to a correct restoration as it could be.

So If I have this correct, you are putting all metal over bare metal, then filler over the all metal, then epoxy over the filler. If this is the case, you are sealing it from the outside only, and you don't think it will rust between the the metal and all metal.



If you paint those unsealed floor pans, you could paint them with epoxy and whatever paint you put over it, you couldn't tell epoxy was in there.

You mentioned about not making an allready long post any longer, I agree with you on that, but we both have different opinions on this, and as long as we can express our opinions on this subject in a gentlemanly manner then it's a good idea to sort it out.

You have enlightened me on all metal, and it sounds like you not only do top notch restorations, you will also discuss how you do things on an open forum. That tells me you're an upfront guy.

I'm ready to throw in the towel on this one, and thanks again for taking the time out of your busy schedule to help out on here, You have a good one, Frank

Rob

OK, I am copy and pasting now. Look for bold print for ansers.Frank, your quote.
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(Because plastic fillers are undeniably absorbent and All metal is not, it would appear there is not the same danger of sweating issue with All Metal. Also, we stitch weld solid all our work, so there is no danger of contamination from the back.)
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All metal is spread on bare metal and ground welds, but when lead was put on these cars, heat was part of the process to bond the lead to the bare metal.

There are no adhesion problem with All metal on bare metal

Anytime you weld on metal, it's a sure bet it will rust at the weld area quicker then any other place on the panel.

If the weld is blasted, as I stated, and all contamination removed, and if All Metal will not allow water through it, your golden

Technology changes, but at this point, epoxy is the best thing out there as far as sealing moisture out.

Epoxy is the best thing for adhesion and moisture, but All Metal also adheres and is moisture proof. So you are in no danger of rusting under the All Metal, just like there was no danger of rusting under the lead. And I have been around long enough to have lead experience also.

You also said.
================================================== ==
(On overlapped panels like floor pans on a original, we do not fill those seems with anything if the factory did not seal them as that would not be correct restoration. IF the factory sealed those seems it would have been done with a seem sealer, which we would use a 2 part seam sealer over epoxy.)
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So you're saying you don't seal overlapped floor pans on the bottom because it is not correct.

No, I did not say I did not seal them, I said I do not SEAM seal them with seam sealer. I said we do not seal these seams in response to your bondo on seams statement above. Of coarse floors prime it like anything else.

I did some more research and found, what they believe, but it is still a little up in the air on what they used, depended upon what factory built the car. Some are saying red oxide on the floor pans and rose primer on the trunk.

Many here do not know, but I did years of research on these subjects. I produced videos, did technical stories, and held technical restoration seminars at NCOA and USCC conventions for many years until I quite restorations. I found red oxide and black primer bottoms, but that has nothing to do with body fillers.

There are a few posts on this if you search body filler, it takes a while to find all of it, but most of this information is coming from our more knowledgeable people on correct restoration.

I am no longer a expert on concourse restoration, I have intentionally forgotten as much as I could about correct nut and bolt restoration, LOL!

I don't think there is anything absolute on this from what I read.

So I would think putting epoxy on this bare metal then painting it with whatever would duplicate the original would be as close to a correct restoration as it could be.

Agreed

So If I have this correct, you are putting all metal over bare metal, then filler over the all metal, then epoxy over the filler. If this is the case, you are sealing it from the outside only, and you don't think it will rust between the the metal and all metal.

All Metal, Epoxy, plastic or polyester filler or Polyester Spray filler as required, urethane primer sanded with 150 then 320, Urethane primer sanded with 320 and 600 scuff



If you paint those unsealed floor pans, you could paint them with epoxy and whatever paint you put over it, you couldn't tell epoxy was in there.

Agreed

You mentioned about not making an allready long post any longer, I agree with you on that, but we both have different opinions on this, and as long as we can express our opinions on this subject in a gentlemanly manner then it's a good idea to sort it out.

You have enlightened me on all metal, and it sounds like you not only do top notch restorations, you will also discuss how you do things on an open forum. That tells me you're an upfront guy.

I have no problem discussing things. We consult and share information with dozens of shops and builders. We have a little network that helps one another instead of butting heads. It works very well. And for the record, I disagree with some of my best friends, but we are still friends. Usually I end up saying my 25 years of work speaks for itself. but that is not to say other ways are not great also

I'm ready to throw in the towel on this one, and thanks again for taking the time out of your busy schedule to help out on here, You have a good one, Frank

Good night John Boy, LOL!


Rob