Hello,

Just wanted to throw my combination out there and see what comments come back. (hope fully not too many negative ones :)) I am open to improvements (obviously). Just a little background. The motor used to be a 468 with TRW pistons (L2349F60), topped off with 049 Oval port heads, a performer RPM intake and a 3310 converted to a 4150 carb. I ran the same headers on it, 2 inch primary Hedmans. Camshaft for the 468 was a Lunati hydraulic flat tappet with .525 inch lift , I forgot the rest of the specs, but it was not a dual pattern cam. Being that I got heads that are probably a little large I went with a small cam to begin with. Transmission is a manual TH400 with a TCI Super Streetfighter torque converter. Axle is a 12 bolt with a Richmond 3.73 gear set and the original Eaton (rebuilt). The car is a 69 Chevelles SS and I used to drive the old engine combination in Florida, I've since moved back to Germany and I took the car completely apart to restore/improve things, I started working on the engine at the same time. Please let me know what you think of the current engine combo. Appreciate your time. Thanks!

Alex

454 2-bolt main block bored .060 over
496 stroker kit with 10:1 (119cc) forged JE pistons
Scat standard length forged rods
Scat forged crank 4.250"

Doug Herbert HER-CBH3 Billet Roller Cam 2200-6000 RPM range, Advertised Duration 285/285, Duration @.050 226/226, Lift .595/.595, Lobe Center 110c

World Products Merlin Single Plane Intake
Holley 850cfm 4150 Vacuum Secondary carb
ATI damper
Jesel belt drive
World Products Merlin Aluminum cylinder heads "Grumpy Jenkins" 310cc 2.19 intake 1.88 exhaust valves
Hedman headers with 2 inch primaries
Crower Stainless 1.7 rockers

Love the BB strokers! When you say standard length rods, Im assuming you mean 6.135. That's something I would change, the longer rod (6.385) will be a better choice, I believe. And the roller cam is a good choice also, but you can step up in specs...most guys with 496 and more are running cams in the 248 to 258 @ .050 range, maybe .680 or so lift. That engine is going to want lots of air. Im not sure how 'streetable' you want to make it though. Im sure that cam will work fine in your combo, but I think you're leaving a lot behind with it. Im sure many other guys will chime in. John

Yes Sir,
6.135 rod length with a 1/4 inch stroke on the crank. I do plan on making this streetable, but then again, what is streetable. I would like to run pump gas and have the engine perform to the best of its ability. I plan on driving it on the street and improving things such as the cam as I go. Being in Germany, where gas is 4x more expensive than in the states, I don't plan on driving it to work, etc. We do have bracket racing here and I do participate in that with another vehicle at the moment. Would definately be something for the weekend. I drove her while in college with the 468 in FL and complained about the gas getting expensive then. I think high-test cost $1.28 before I left. Now I am kicking myself for thinking that was expensive.
I know the cam is small but I didn't want to install a huge expensive cam & springs that were going to make it a dog right off the bat. I have the same intake with a 4500 base and a "new" 1050cfm Dominator in a box. I will be tempted to run that eventually if the engine will allow.

How big can I go with the camshaft keeping it "streetable?"

Thanks,
Alex

With a NA engine the shorter rod is better when using good flowing heads which you have. The trend to go with shorter rods have evoleved of the last few years. The shorter rods rpm quicker, have shorter dwell time at TDC and BDC, and pull on the intake harder during the intake stroke.

The Scat 1/4" stroker I believe uses the 6.385" rod, otherwise it won't balance worth a hoot.
I have the scat stroker and it required .250" long rods.

That said, go with more cam. That one will idle puppy smooth and run out of breath around 5000.

Also, pump premium here is $3.25, so you are saying it's $12 a gallon there?

Have fun!

Ron

Ron454, Scat makes a couple of stroker cranks with different rod lengths. I just bought a 4340 one that was originally external balance for use with stock length rods, but it's had heavy metal added to front and back counterweights and it balanced fine. I'm glad that the prior owner already have the heavy metal in it before I bought it or it would have cost me a chunk in balancing $$$. It's their -2 model and sells for $1000+ but I scored it for less than $200, brand new with heavy metal added. I'll be running longer rods on it, though, but just for lighter pistons, plus I already had a good set of Lunati Pro Mod rods that were 6.385".
I agree with the others, that's a very small cam for a stroker. Use a bigger bumpstick and let 'er eat!

Hello,

Just wanted to throw my combination out there and see what comments come back. (hope fully not too many negative ones :)) I am open to improvements (obviously). Just a little background. The motor used to be a 468 with TRW pistons (L2349F60), topped off with 049 Oval port heads, a performer RPM intake and a 3310 converted to a 4150 carb. I ran the same headers on it, 2 inch primary Hedmans. Camshaft for the 468 was a Lunati hydraulic flat tappet with .525 inch lift , I forgot the rest of the specs, but it was not a dual pattern cam. Being that I got heads that are probably a little large I went with a small cam to begin with. Transmission is a manual TH400 with a TCI Super Streetfighter torque converter. Axle is a 12 bolt with a Richmond 3.73 gear set and the original Eaton (rebuilt). The car is a 69 Chevelles SS and I used to drive the old engine combination in Florida, I've since moved back to Germany and I took the car completely apart to restore/improve things, I started working on the engine at the same time. Please let me know what you think of the current engine combo. Appreciate your time. Thanks!

Alex

454 2-bolt main block bored .060 over
496 stroker kit with 10:1 (119cc) forged JE pistons
Scat standard length forged rods
Scat forged crank 4.250"

Doug Herbert HER-CBH3 Billet Roller Cam 2200-6000 RPM range, Advertised Duration 285/285, Duration @.050 226/226, Lift .595/.595, Lobe Center 110c

World Products Merlin Single Plane Intake
Holley 850cfm 4150 Vacuum Secondary carb
ATI damper
Jesel belt drive
World Products Merlin Aluminum cylinder heads "Grumpy Jenkins" 310cc 2.19 intake 1.88 exhaust valves
Hedman headers with 2 inch primaries
=
Unless you already have the parts use the 6.385 rod. It will internal balance without issue in most cases with a decent piston weight.
The cam is way too small for a 500 inch engine.
Look at something with closer to .700 lift, hi 240's, low 250's intake & about 8 degrees more exhaust for starters.

If you don't have the parts yet you might email me, I have helped a few folks in Sweden & Belgium with some of the stuff you are looking at & hopefully saved them a couple of dollars too ;)

Alex, me, I'd get those durations at .050" lift near 250. A good friend used the Crane 236SR in his 509, and while very, very streetable, it left a TON of power on the table ( as my 439 out HP'd that motor by alot) To wit, a good solid flat tappet cam will out muscle the small solid roller, I think. Then why bother with the $$$$ of a roller setup.

I dont know how hard , or easy, it is to get cams shipped over there, but at a MINIMUM, ( and I told this to my 509 buddy), I'd use a cam that profile close to the old Ultradyne I run, 243/251 @.050. Lunati can do it for you on a solid roller at, I think, 650 lift.

It should remain quite streetable, even at a 110 lsa ( certainly on the 112lsa), and slap the Herbert cam around.

I think I personally would go something like a 248/253, a smaller dual pattern with more on the intake side.

Even something like an Isky 620 ( 248/248) will be all done by 6000 or so. A split pattern with 248/249 IN, say 6200 rpms or so. THat should match the 3.73s, yes?

Your cam choice is VERY conservative however. You dont want to go slower than the 468, do ya !? ;)

I'm using a Comp. custom grind cam in my 496 that is .252I & .256E @ .050 with .714 lift on a 112 LSA. I now wish I would have listened to Tony Mamo and went a little bigger on duration! He tried to tell me when I bought my heads! But, this cam is very streetable. I just think I'm leaving a little power on the table with it. And my stroker kit from Eagle came with 6.385 rods. Listen to the sound clip in my sig. and see what you think of the idle. Also, this cam is not a dog on the bottom end! Hope this info. will help a little.

Will

Here is a good compromise in one of the new VooDoo SR lineup

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN%2D60232&N=700+115&autoview=sku

Shawn

I agree most definitely with the cam opinions.....your real on the small side! A cam like that could be driven everyday in a motor of 100 less cubes. In your 500 incher, it will basically be "non existant". At the very least Id say 244/252 at .050 with .630 plus lift. And thats still mild enough with all those cubes. My opinion would be to start lookin at stuff like 248/255 at .050 on a 111-112LSA and get at least .660 lift in there.

With that cam, the dynamic compression will just kill you and detonation here we come. Not a very good choice. The guys on here are a very good source, listen to them.

The cam you mentioned would be for a daily driver 396.

LOL, I am happy that your comments came back with so much scrutiny on the cam specifics. Gentlemen, I know the cam is very small. I ordered it before I bought the stroker kit. I was going to run the 468 with the World heads but since the stroker kits are so cheap at the moment, and I had the engine apart for a small rebuild, I decided to go "all the way." It was bigger than my old Lunati which was still conservative compared to other cams in 468 inch motors.
I really appreciate your comments and recommendatons though. Good information as I am not very well versed in cam dynamics.
You would still recommend running a split-pattern cam with the aftermarket heads? I thought that was needed with the stock heads that had weak flow on the exhaust port. I did see some comments with split patterns favoring the intake. Which is better?

Wolfplace, thank you for the offer but I already have all of the parts. It's an external balance kit and I would swear that it has the 6.135 rod, but I will double check before I stick my foot too far into my mouth, okay Ron454?

I definately don't want the motor to be slower than the 468 and it is still on the engine stand. (The Chevelle has awhile before it will be done) Therefore I can still make changes easily.

Dominate67, I checked out the Voodoo cam on Summitracing. Has anyone else looked at that cam? Would that do me right?

Ron454, okay, I didn't know that premium cost over $3 dollars in some areas. I guess if I calculate the price of premium here being about 1.48 Euro (per liter) into dollars = $1.88 multiplied by about 3.78 = approximately $7.13 dollars per gallon. Taxes are a bitch!

Can someone explain the method of how to order correct valve springs for any cam I may purchase? My current springs are only good for .600 lift or so. I believe they are Pioneer. (came with the heads)

Thanks again,
Alex

In the case of the Voodoo SR UDHarold on this board or Steve at Lunati can match you up with the correct springs. The Voodoo i quoted you is a few sizes under mine and i am pleased with my own. They are designed for Street use and easy ( as a roller cam can be ) on the valve train. I know some general guidelines but there is no need to quote them ill let the vender do that. In my opinion you only want to run enough springs to control the valve at your effective lift and intended RPM range any more is wasting power and increasing wear point failure ect.

If UDHarold doesnt answer contact Steve at lunati.


Shawn

Could anyone give me a horsepower/torque guestimation with the proper cam? With one of these larger cams (250+ duration) I wouldn't have to twist the motor to 7300+ rpm to make good power would I? I wonder at approximately which RPM the peak HP and TQ would find themselves at.

I see Wolfplace runs a dyno, so I am sure you have seen many "similar" engines. Someone's guess would be beneficial too.

I don't plan on running anymore gear than a 3.73.

Thanks,
Alex

My friend setup a similar unit with same compression but 310cc canfields.

With a roller in 260/268 and around 680 lift it made 699.7hp@6500rpm.

Strong torque.

I like the Xr292R cam from comp cams. Makes alot of torque and will max out around 6000 in your engine.

In my 468 i got 671hp with it and 310cc canfields.

Any cam maker will be able to tell you or give you a reccommended spring and what the open/closed pressure and installed height should be. I went with a hyd roller in my 489 and it is between .630/.640 lift and 240-250 in duration and it is very mild and very streetable. Mine is a split pattern but I'm running stock heads with some work.

Hello everyone,

I tried to send a PM to UDHarold but apparently his mailbox is full. Can anyone contact him and divert his attention to this thread for a couple of minutes? Is Steve of Lunati also an active member on this forum?

Thanks,
Alex

69ChevelleSS,
I don't know what your power goals are but I will address the camshaft that you have now. It has been my thought process that if you give an engine alot of head then you can take cam away from the engine because the heads can easly fill the cylinders with short duration. The opposite is true and plays out in NHRA Super Stock cars all the time.

The following was a project I was part of a couple of years ago. The project was an affordable do it yourself retro fit of base 502 BBC in boats that make 375HP to 415HP from the factory. A factory 500HP engine is a $12K option in the marine market. The customer set out to provide the following: an affordable alternative to factory power, 525HP, good idle characteristics, useable with wet exhaust.

Here is the build and results:

502cid - 100% stock short block other than min. deck cut to make flat
8.8 compression. Did not zero deck - pistons .012" down + .040" headgasket
850 Sea Demon 82P 90S
HVH 1" Super Sucker
HV/Brodix 2000 Intake
Canfield 310 heads / CNC Chamber / No Port Work
Cam - custom Hyd Roller Just under 225 at .050 I w/112LSA

2" Primary Schoenfield Headers - dyno mufflers
Will test Gill Exhaust again when done testing in this state

Belt driven Sea Water pump working - cross over - alternator working - no PS pump.

89 octane fuel - yep, Winter Blend right from the gas pump.

35 Degrees total timing - HEI external coil distributor ( yes, the computer one) with Jacobs amplifier/coil

RPM HP Torque
2100 194.3 483.8
2200 206.6 495.67
2300 217.5 498.52
2400 231.0 505.70
2500 243.9 512.60
2600 256.8 519.00
2700 269.2 523.36
2800 279.9 524.64
2900 288.2 521.78
3000 295.2 516.70
3100 302.8 513.17
3200 312.2 512.08
3300 323.2 514.40
3400 336.7 519.97
3500 351.9 527.69
3600 374.4 542.69
3700 387.9 550.14
3800 406.6 562.41
3900 424.7 572.21
4000 440.7 578.35
4100 457.4 584.13
4200 468.2 586.44
4300 480.3 586.50
4400 490.9 585.93
4500 500.4 583.75
4600 508.8 580.29
4700 515.1 576.90
4800 526.3 575.77
4900 531.4 569.77
5000 536.0 563.20
5100 540.2 556.26
5200 540.9 546.34

So if your goal with the 496 is 550HP and around 600#/ft of torque it is do able below 6000 rpm and running on 89 octane.

cstraub,
Thank you for your input and the figures you've provided. Now concerning my power output, I am looking to drag/bracket the car, but not in a professional manner. So I supposed that peak HP is less of a concern than a flat torque curve. I see your engine has very nice torque figures, but I don't know how well you can relate boat performance to car performance. With your comments you seem to be going against the grain on this thread stating that since I have larger heads I can get away with a smaller cam. Now this is what I thought myself, and is what I stated in my initial post. The one large difference I see between the engine you cited as a example and mine is the compression. 8.8 compared to 10:1. Could this be a large deciding factor in camshaft selection? How about the LSA difference? 110 vs. 112? Could someone please explain to me what difference this will make? When is it better to have more or less LSA?

BTW I need to thank Stef's again. They saved my hide. I bought a Stef's BBC pan a couple of years ago from Summit and I either lost the pan bolts or they didn't come with it. In any case, I bought two pan stud/bolt kits and nothing worked, all too big. I called Stef's and they sent me the right bolts after I explained my situation. (not free, but I wasn't expecting that) Seems like someone went out of their way to help me out. I wrote an e-mail with a thank you note to the e-mail on the Stef's site, hope someone got it.

cstraub,
Thank you for your input and the figures you've provided. Now concerning my power output, I am looking to drag/bracket the car, but not in a professional manner. So I supposed that peak HP is less of a concern than a flat torque curve. I see your engine has very nice torque figures, but I don't know how well you can relate boat performance to car performance. With your comments you seem to be going against the grain on this thread stating that since I have larger heads I can get away with a smaller cam. Now this is what I thought myself, and is what I stated in my initial post. The one large difference I see between the engine you cited as a example and mine is the compression. 8.8 compared to 10:1. Could this be a large deciding factor in camshaft selection? How about the LSA difference? 110 vs. 112? Could someone please explain to me what difference this will make? When is it better to have more or less LSA?

BTW I need to thank Stef's again. They saved my hide. I bought a Stef's BBC pan a couple of years ago from Summit and I either lost the pan bolts or they didn't come with it. In any case, I bought two pan stud/bolt kits and nothing worked, all too big. I called Stef's and they sent me the right bolts after I explained my situation. (not free, but I wasn't expecting that) Seems like someone went out of their way to help me out. I wrote an e-mail with a thank you note to the e-mail on the Stef's site, hope someone got it.

Boat, Circle, Drag engines are all the same. In reality you are trying to achieve a powerband in a certain rpm range. The above 502 had to idle at 750 rpm to go in gear and it had to accelerate from 750 to 5200 rpm while moving a 5000# object.

In your case with a bracket car consistancey is the key. You need a powerband within the rpm range you want to run the engine that is nice and smooth as not to load and unload the suspension so that the car will run the numbers time and time again.

The above engine in a bracket car would be no ET demon BUT with that kind of flat power, a good suspension, and a good driver could make for a very consistant car. In '01 or '02 a fellow by the name of Van Greer went to the NHRA Nationals as a Divsion Champion. His race car. . . '73 Suburban, 2wheel drive, with a 454 CID. This "race car" was by no means fast but the combination of Van's driving skill and the knowledge of the where the engine made power made the combo a championship combo.

In this world it is give and take. Same with heads and cams. If you are running a CID within an rpm range that the heads are not maxed out then the camshaft will not have to work as hard. My customers for the most part have been engine builders in drag, circle, and marine. I have maintained this philosphy in all applications and as a result have been very successful. If you don't plan on turning this engine to the moon, then you won't need a large camshaft. You need to fiqure out what your max rpm is going to be and go from there. A light car you can narrow up the powerband somewhat, make it more peaky because you don't have the mass to move. If it is a heavy car you need a broader powerband.

Hope this explains a few things.