I have seen POR15 mentioned so many times on forums like it was the cure for the common cold. I come from a back ground in auto paint that laughs at such products. It is also the largest by far percentage of market. This would be the auto refinishing and OEM finish industry. The biggies like PPG, DuPont, Sherwin Williams, Sikkins, all have recommendations and products for repairing rust. I can assure you that NONE of these recommendations include a product that tells you to simply cover the rust like POR and the others. So, with my experience in the technologies used (limited, understand, I am NOT a paint chemist) and an understanding of WHY these companies would make these recommendations I can't for the life of me understand how POR and the others can make the claims they do.

I ask the question why wouldn't these "big boys" make a similar product? They have the resources to buy and sell these "little people" who make some of the rust products with the money they spend on coffee cups in their board rooms. Why wouldn't they make a similar product?

Well, I can agree that they may not because they don't want a part of that market. This is possible, they will drop products simply because they don't make "enough" money on them. So with that in mind, maybe the restoration market isn't big enough for them to want a piece of. The risk of offering a product that they would have to stand behind is too large for the small profit available.

Well, I am not one to simply read the label or sales pitch and believe it. So, I am going to take all of you believers up on your challange to put up or shut up. I have already gotten some POR, Picklex, Zero Rust, and I have some others coming. I am going to prepair a sample of each, following the directions to the letter. These samples will be put on the coast of Califorina about 100 yards from the ocean. It should be no time before we find out just how good these products are.

Secondly, I have began collecting the MSDS on them and studieing the chemical makeup to REALLY understand what they do and why. I can tell you that so far..I have found that they toss a lot of words around like "dielectric ability" (which simply means it doesn't conduct electricity, somthing I would think all paints can claim) and "Chemical affinity" (which means "a relation of biological groups involving resemblance in structural plan and indicating a community of origin" the word is mostly used in relation to marriage and personal relationships). So far with my limited research they have told me nothing about what they do other than what is in the sales claims.

Of course some things they claim like "converts rust" is what ALL etch primers or metal conditioners that contain acid do.

So, I am began this little project for a few reasons. First of all I want to know personally if these products do what they say. If they do, I would like to use them from time to time when I don't want to clean the metal properly. I would like to be able to tell all of you who want to rely on them if you really can. I want them to do as they claim, I really do. So this will not be a tainted test. I will do everything in my power to make them work.

If you have any ideas for my project please give them to me or forever hold your peace. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Martin, I applaud you courage to attempt this project. I understand many that frequent this site "swear" by some of these products, and, I suspect, won't like hearing your results. I would like to see you also include in your "study", pieces coated with major manufacturer( DuPont,PPG,Spies,etc.) products used in the recommended fashion. That is: Clean,rust free metal, followed with etch prime, followed with urethane primer,followed with a single stage urethane. A "Factory" recommended process for items such a car frames,etc.
I am already confident of what your results will be. As a professional restoter, I will only use products like POR15 on trunk and interior floors and would never use them om exterior, exposed panels or parts. However, that's just my opinion. Since people here seem to have great respect for you, I trust that your evaluation of your testing will be fair and honest. If you are interested,I would be more than happy to provide you with a test part coated with the best Spies Hecker has for your testing. E-mail me.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GVMLS6:
Martin, I applaud you courage to attempt this project. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gordon,he's painting a few panels,not going into combat! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif I think theres some guys here with successful 'experiments' riding on their trunkfloors,on their floorboards and on their framerails, that have been painted with POR for many years now.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by boomhauer:
Originally posted by GVMLS6:
Martin, I applaud you courage to attempt this project. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gordon,he's painting a few panels,not going into combat! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif I think theres some guys here with successful 'experiments' riding on their trunkfloors,on their floorboards and on their framerails, that have been painted with POR for many years now.

However, have they been exposed to the elements constantly, or have they been "sunny weather" drivers? THAT'S the real test!



------------------
MalibuJerry350
TC Member #1279
Original owner '70 Chevelle.
595,000 miles on car.
Hey, if it's got wheels, DRIVE IT!
My Chevelle: http://hometown.aol.com/erie614/myhomepage/index.html

Don't forget Eastwood's Corroless.
As for why the big boys don't make similar products, it's simple. It's exactly as you stated. Por caters to a niche market, the restorers, as does Eastwood. The big guys make finishes for the entire industry, from the manufacturers to the auto body repair shops. From my own experiences in dealing with big corporations, they don't waste their time with niche markets.

I installed a new battery tray in my Chevelle about four years ago. I sanded the enamel paint off of it and coated it with Por 15 before I installed it. Also, the radiator overflow has deposited anti-freeze on it, so this should be a good test subject under real world conditions. I'll pull the battery and take a look and see what it looks like. It will be the first time it's seen the light of day since I dropped the battery in. The combination of battery acid and anti-freeze should be even worse than salt water exposure.

According to local Por rep I've spoken with out of Houston, the reason for painting over rust isn't because Por is supposed to be a rust converter. Instead, Por likes a rough or toothy surface to cling to. They recommend removing all loose rust and scale with a wire brush before application, or using a bead blaster to roughen the surface a bit, or using a chemical etch.

I'll get some pictures posted as soon as possible. I haven't seen the battery tray (under the battery) since I installed it, so it could be an eye opener either way. I'd also like to remove the tray and take a look at the inner fenderwell beneath the tray. I coated that area also since it was so badly pitted.



[This message has been edited by Randy Mosier (edited 12-29-2002).]

I've put it on parts of my older PU where some surface rust was starting. Being in a snowbelt and all everything get's a fairly decent test around here. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif is all I'm going to say.

Peter

[This message has been edited by Peter F. (edited 12-29-2002).]

I've had mixed results myself. First time I used it, it seemed to work perfect. BUT, it didn't seem as bulletproof as they make it sound. The most recent time, I couldn't get the stuff to work right period. Would not stick, no way no how. Sandblasted the parts, scrubbed 'em down. Used their metal-ready, etc. Stuff just did not want to co-operate. All in all, I'm not yet convinced for the price it costs.

Good luck!

------------------
Eric Taylor
Mr. E's Garage (http://www.geocities.com/L65chevelle/72chevellepage)
72 Malibu 350 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/ericsvellepic1.jpg)
68 SS396 basket case

Go MARTIN GO!! I share your concerns on these "super products". I am old and stubborn enough to think that there is NO replacement for good preparation and QUALITY materials. In theory, rust, has three elements: ferrous material (metal)-oxygen (air), and H20, (water). If a panel is rusted, (not perforated) does the rust stop if you seal off air and water? Will these super products stop the rust in those deep pitts? In 30 plus years my experience has been mixed using conventional products. As you know the mainstream products in use today are FAR superior to the lacquer and enamel based materials of the past. In 1978 I repaired three rust spots,(lower front fenders,and one pinhole in the 1/4) on a 69 Buick Lesabre GS. Car was nice, well cared for. Refinished complete, RM Lacquer, with clear added to last four coats. Car had typical surface rust under wheel opening mouldings. Used Dupont 215s zinc chromate under lacquer primer. Held up fine. Surfaces were VERY well cleaned and properly prepped. Car was dry garage stored, summer driven only, and driven approximately 80,000 miles. Twenty plus years later, redid car, paint was crazing. Repaired new rust, rear window area, under vinyl top, rear of lower 1/4 panels. ALL rust was caused by GM'S use of that spongy stuff on lower 1/4s and moisture trapped by vinyl top. My point being, that good prep and how vehicle is to be used, have thet greatest effect on longevity. Have used over 2 gallons of POR15 on my 66 Elky frame off, however, the way it was prepped, and the fact it will never see another Minnesota winter, I probably could have used Krylon aerosol cans to prime and paint. Add to that, a quality rustproof material in all enclosed areas, that car will out live me by many years. Your test, and those that expose their cars to daily use in harsh conditions will be the true test!!! Thanks, Karl

Okay, I have pictures. I took them this morning and I have to say, I'm pleased with the results of four years worth of exposure to battery fumes and spilled anti-freeze. I'll get them posted as soon I get them transfered to my hard drive.

To make this a true test IMO I would go in these steps.
1. A panel cleaned and large enough to cut into 4-5 pieces.
2.reclean panels as per manufacturers directions.
3.prep with perscribed primers
4.Paint per directions
5.wait 10 days and expose to elements
6.leave panels exposed 1 year and exanine.

I do know from my own experience in aircraft maintenance that primer and paint alone will not prevent corrosion. I work heavy overhaul on commercial aircraft, so I deal with corrosion and corrosion prevention on a daily basis. The best way we've found to keep corrosion at bay is to seal the surfaces of the sturcture after painting. Primer and paint are still important, but that alone will not prevent corrosion. I've been in overhaul long enough to see airplanes come back into the hangar that were previously treated with sealer, and the results are profound. When properly sealed, corrosion recurrence is minimal. Of course, it wouldn't be practical or attractive to spray sealer on the outer surface of your car. I'm talking about internal structures that are closed up and covered behind panels. But we do spray sealer on the backsides of outer skins, and this is what I believe Por was intended for in automotive applications. It's meant for structures and for the backsides of sheetmetal and in other areas where it doesn't have to be aesthetically pleasing. Rather than a rust converter, it's used to seal metal to keep air from coming in contact with it, since oxygen is the essential element of corrosion. I've seen coffee and lav juice spilled all over sealed aluminum structural components with hardly any ill effects at all. You have to cut off the oxygen. Even the epoxy paints and primers we use won't do it by themselves.
The way we go about sealing the metal is different. In aviation, we seal after priming and painting. When using Por in an automotive application, it seals and color coats at the same time. But the end result is the same, though the products used are different.

Now, by no means am I a schill for any company like Por. They don't pay my taxes or my mortgage, so I have no loyalty to them whatsoever. Like Eric, I've had days when the damn stuff just wouldn't flow out the way it's supposed to. It can be fickle at times. I don't know if it has a limited shelf life, if they run off a bad batch occasionally, or what. Sometimes, it's just downright aggravating to work with. But those occasions have been rare, and from my overall experience and follow-up four years after the fact, all I can say is, it seems to have worked very well for me. I'm not trying to dispute Martin's opinions in any way. I have the utmost in respect for him, and I'm very interested in seeing how his experiment turns out. Truth be known, I love these types of experiments!!

As soon as the batteries for my camera are recharged, I'll post the pics.

[This message has been edited by Randy Mosier (edited 12-29-2002).]

Here are some pics, before the battery was removed and before cleanup:

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0409.jpg

More here, before cleanup:
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0412.jpg


http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0413.jpg
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0414.jpg
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0415.jpg
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0416.jpg
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0421.jpg


After cleanup, Please note that the overhead light I was using caused some reflections that appear to be rust, but it's only the light.

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0422.jpg

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0423.jpg

In this picture, you can see what I mean by the droplight reflection. That's not rust. http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0424.jpg
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0425.jpg

Notice around the edges. The paint is not chipped or cracked. It's not even softened up any. http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0427.jpg

Same here. That's the way the light was reflecting, not chipping or cracking. It's very smooth when you run a finger across it. http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0429.jpg


Here are a couple with the overhead light turned off:

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0434.jpg
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Dcp_0437.jpg

I've been reading your posts for a while and appreciate all you do for us out here. The information and insight you bring saves us countless hours of research. THANKS A MILLION!

As for the test, it takes special a character to take the time to do these things for us....just know it is appreciated.....a LOT!

I can tell by a few of the posts already that you've struck an emotional chord with POR 15. There are some products I'll swear by today, but if somebody can show me something better, I'll definately make the jump. Paint technology has improved so much in the past few years that trying to keep up with had has suceeded in only making my head spin. I've learned to keep an open mind and always try to learn from those around you. (at least some of the time)

MARTINSR...you've definately earned and "ATTA BOY" on this one.

------------------
~moderation is great... as long as there is plenty of it!~

Im not sure if this would be considered a large company or not?
I believe the "Pettit" AKA "Hobby Poxy" paint company has been making a product very simular to POR 15 for years now.
Its called Trailer Coat and is used here in Fla. for salt water boat trailers to keep the salt from eating them up, I have also heard it's not as good as POR?
T.C.

I have been testing POR 15 for about 4 years now. UV light will kill it. I have had it on some deep pitted mild steel 4 year now exposed to salt water (tug boat) and it has held up great, no rust through yet.

I just wish I could dip my hot rods in it before paint.

Guys, Guys, come on now lighten up. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif First off, if you read my opening post I am very open on this. Yes, I start with a bias. HOWEVER, I said that I WANT these products to work and I mean it.

If you read it, you will also understand my background and why I feel like I do. As far as never using it so how can I make an opinion? Well, going back to my background and what I do know (though as I said, I am not a chemist) about the technologies in this industry, I can make an educated guess at the products. A doctor doesn't have to know the insides of that "Medibolic" herb pill they sell claiming that you loose weight while you sleep. They would know by the education they have that there is no such thing as this magic diet pill. I am NOT in anyway saying I am an autobody "Doctor," but even a first year med student would know that there is no such thing as this magic diet pill. Just like I don't have to know what brand of paint you are using when helping with a problem, urethane is urethane, epoxy is epoxy and so on. The technologies of these rust fixers are quite honestly at face value seem to be nothing special. However, as I said, I don't fully understand them. So, that is why am doing the test and the studying. I am not going to read the claims on the label and believe it, I'm sorry. I also understand that I nor my opinion is the end all, my opinion is just that opinion. UNLESS of course my opinion is based on fact. I can pass on facts that I have learned (like from this test) or I can pass on facts that are "generally excepted facts" like urethane primer is 2K. If I post something that is my opinion I say why I support that opinion. Believe it or not, that is fine. If I post generally excepted facts, then I will still explain why. This too, you can believe it or not. The thing is, if you don't understand clearly what is being told to you, you should not make a rock solid opinion. That is where I am at with these products. I have supported my opinion with the facts I have, yes by never using the product. Well, I am ready to learn about them and understand them. I KNOW I will learn something and I know that I will find that some of these products will have something to offer me and some of you. I also have to assume that some of them will offer nothing. But, I will find out what I can, you guys have peaked my curiosity.

Gordon, thanks but I have to agree with bomhauer, we will save the Curagous for the guys who walk up to a car to give them a ticket not knowing if he will be looking down a barrel of a 9mm. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif But I appreciate the thought. And thanks for the offer.

Boomhauer, http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif you make me raff. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif. I understand your passion. But the "tests" of what has been done to the trunks around the world really mean nothing. You need a standard to test it against. A rattle can of Rustolium may have done the same thing. The thing is, there is one thing I understand and support that POR and the like say. If you seal off the rust from moisture and air it will stop. True, we of course have know this for a long, long time, nothing new. And knowing that, yes, a simple rattle can do wonders. If you have also sealed the trunk from leaking you will "fix" the rust.

Thanks for your testimonies guys. The thing is your results can be very subjective. Now Hunter, boy, that is hard to beat. I just want to see it up against other products and a standard.
Listen guys, I LOVE to be proved wrong. Do you know why? Because if I have been proved wrong it means I have been taught a better way to do something. I truly want to find out how they work. YES I am skeptical, but as a very wize man once said, "How can one be certain without first having doubt".

For all of you that supported my effort, I thank you. To all that challeged me, I thank you too. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif




------------------
1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Hey Martin, I hope you don't think I was challenging you. I was merely posting pics of a Por treated part after four year's worth of exposure to battery acid fumes and anti-freeze spills. Like I said, I have the utmost respect for you. One of my earliest mentors was a body man down in Moulton, Texas named Herbert Haase, and let me tell you, he would share your opinions and skeptcism (?) of products like Por. But the things I learned from Herbert are worth more than the gold in Fort Knox.

Remember, I said the stuff can be finicky at times, and I can't explain why it just won't work right for some people. I painted a set of bucket seat frames with it last year, and I couldn't get a good smooth finish out of it no matter what I tried. It just bubbled up and fish eyed all over and I had to coat the frames several times to get good coverage. Bad batch? Shelf life? Who knows? Every other part I've used it on has turned out good though, and all I can do is testify to my own experiences. When I pulled the battery, I did so not knowing what I would find under there. But had I found a bunch of softened, peeled, and flaked paint along with a rusted tray, I would have posted those pics too. If a product doesn't work as advertised, I want to know.

[This message has been edited by Randy Mosier (edited 12-31-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy Mosier:
It just bubbled up and fish eyed all over and I had to coat the frames several times to get good coverage. Bad batch? Shelf life? Who knows? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That'll happen if the can is shaken instead of stirred or even on a rough road trip during shipping. forms little microbubbles that dry then burst.

I cant wait to see the test results. I used POR on my spindles and swaybar and it came out great but im really, really interested in this test. I've dropped the sway on the floor, dropped a BFH on the sway, and knocked the spindle off of the bench and the stuff didnt scratch or chip. But im really interested in how it weathers and stands up....especially to the ocean winds. Too http://www.chevelles.com/forum/cool.gif

I used Zero Rust to cover up some surface rust on quater panel. It's been a year so far and still looks good. Tried Tremclad first but it started rusting through within a month. Also my car has been sitting on the driveway for the last 4 months, with the Zero Rust directly exposed to the sun. So far so good.

Later
Steve

Thanks for your efforts on this Martin.

I'll be very interested in the outcome too. Got my own "test" of sorts going now too - I did my rusted out half-roof in POR, covered with POR-bonded fiberglass mat, then filler - per POR's recommended use. Soon to be completed with primer-filler, and paint. Guess I'll let y'all know how its holding up in about 2 or 3 years.

I'm somewhat of a believer in the POR product and so far I've had good results with it.

I'm an even bigger believer in the scientic method of discovery. Martinsr seems to be approaching this test with the right attitude and I look forward to seeing some results. This will not, or should not be a quick test. We will have to be very patient.

Clark

being someone that has not found Por to be the wonder cure all that it claims to be I am also interested in your results. I have used it on my 72 as well as eastwood's cooreless (sp?) with limited sucess/failure. I also owe MartinSr alot. He helped me through many rough spots on my rebuild and I think his test will be invaluable to those of us who rely on experts like MartinSr to help us.

I am now collecting the parts for my 70 project, scored a good roof last weekend, and I'd like some real world/professional opinions on using the various "rust inhibitors" on that project. I'll be keeping an eye on your results MartinSr, as I'm sure many others will.

------------------
72 Chevelle and a 70 Chevelle with a crushed roof
ACES # 4051 MCC # 448
TC # 1549 81/70 Cruisers

[This message has been edited by Professor_SS (edited 12-31-2002).]

MARTINSR--I repeat---GLAD you are taking the time and energy to do this. Whatever your findings! Your contributions to this site and our hobby are appreciated, well documented, and beyond reproach. Thanks again Karl

Randy, please, this is no big deal. Really, I am not upset about any of this. I am use to explaining myself and apologizing for things I have said. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Unless someone's goes off completely, I have no problem with disagreements. Your photos are great and a good basis for the product. Testimonies are only so good. I really want to understand the technology of these products. THAT is what I am after.

Thanks guys for your support and I will keep you posted.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MARTINSR:
Randy, please, this is no big deal. Really, I am not upset about any of this. I am use to explaining myself and apologizing for things I have said. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Unless someone's goes off completely, I have no problem with disagreements. Your photos are great and a good basis for the product. Testimonies are only so good. I really want to understand the technology of these products. THAT is what I am after.

Thanks guys for your support and I will keep you posted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My sentiments exactly! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif

I'm relatively new to all this, but here's my .02. I love the POR-15. I've used it a couple of times now with zero problems. I have to say I bought the metal ready and marine clean and followed the directions EXACTLY. I felt I went overboard on the cleaning (if you can), but if it messed up I didn't want to feel like it was because I didn't get things clean enough...That all said, I haven't used it anywhere that is exposed to sunlight, so I haven't topcoated it either time.

I used it on my floorboards and I think it came out great! (see body work link below).

If there is something better out there, I can't wait to try it!!

This should be interesting...very interesting.

------------------
JR
TC #1098
My 69 Convertible (http://www.erols.com/ruther/69conv)
Body work and interior started June 02 - UPDATED 9/29/02 (http://www.erols.com/ruther/69conv/bodywork)

My 2001 Z28 - LS1 (http://www.erols.com/ruther/z28_5.jpg)

So, what were the results?

Thanx,
mark.
'71 Fodor
383 "Smokey"

Well, after I got all your cockles in bunch I haven't even got the darn thing in the weather! I have gathered a number of different products, gathered some nice rusty metal and that is where it stopped. Sorry about that. I did learn a little about the products. POR for instance is actually a varnish like material made from a resin from a soft pine tree in Florida, amazing stuff you can find on the internet!!! The first can I opened was a clear POR, I was floored by the smell and the appearance, it was regular old varnish. This was before I learned the resin fact. In fact, I am told that the POR stands for "Products Of Resin". I know, I just know that there is a varnish product out there that the MSDS sheet would prove they are one in the same. I have found similar things happen in other investigations I have done with products.

This is not to say that the POR company is lying or anything like that. It does just as the advertize. The "encapsulating" of rust is simply a fancy way of saying it "covers" the rust. It does NOTHING chemically to control the rust, eliminate the rust, "convert" rust, nothing. It simply is covering it like a tarp would, hinding it from view.

This doesn't mean that it isn't doing something useful, it just means that it is not doing what most think it is.

I'll keep you posted. http://www.v8buick.com/images/smilies/znaika.gif

MARTINSR,

Are you going to use clean sheetmetal sandblasted clean or rusty scalley sheetmetal?

I used the POR15 on my 69'. However I did not paint over any rusted sheetmetal. I sandblasted all surfaces such as frame, suspension components, underbody, floor, core support, front inner fenders, trunk floor and inside the bottom of the doors, inside bottom quarters and inside lower front fenders. I had my Chevelle completely diassembeled. So each piece was coated twice with regular POR15 then topcoated with POR15 Chassis Black. By the way I did not brush, I sprayed all surfaces and components.
I choose this product because of the claims that it is suppose to seal out moisture. Unlike paint that is porous, POR15 is suppose to be non-porous.
I also choose this product since I live in the NE US, Ohio, also known as the rust belt. I don't have any intensions of ever driving my total resto in the rain or snow and salt. However I also do not want to have to ever do a total resto (9-1/2 years) again.
I understand my paint will not last forever but did use what I felt to be the best BC/CC for the outside body finish, Glasurit/Diamont.
I do hope that your test results are positive. I read up on many products before making my selections... (I'm just an average guy 1st resto). Hope I made the right choices.
My car has been completed for nearly four years and so far I have no negative feedback on POR15 or any of the other products I have used. graemlins/hurray.gif
Some of my pics below show the undercarriage in detail and the finish I was able to obtain by spraying.
Looking forward to your results and comments. :cool:

just make sure you apply it directly to bare metal for best results, preferably sand blasted and preferably to areas that don't get hit directly by the sun unless topcoated. (yes UV will damage it)

Pstonhead, FastSS, funny you should say that about sand blasting because as I remember POR instructions specifically say NOT to sand blast. They say you SHOULD leave the rust there, just brush off the loose scale. graemlins/clonk.gif

I've seen several posts on this site, not in this discussion, that claim Por converts rust. Just to be fair I have never seen them claim to convert or alter rust in any way. They actually state the opposite and say that some of their competitors claim to convert rust and that its just not possible. From thier web site:

"it prevents rust from recurring by protecting metal from further exposure to moisture. "

Not waving the POR banner, but just dont want to bust their chops for not doing something that they never claimed to do.

- Doug

Not to be difficult but form their product description:

"POR-15 APPLICATION PROCEDURES
Surface preparation:
Rusted surfaces are best; seasoned metal and sandblasted surfaces are also good.
"

We had brought some of this (Por 15) in the lab a few years back and were playing with it a little.

It contains isocyanates (N=C=O molecule groups). These are also found in our moisture cure urethanes. How this works is that you will apply Por 15 to the surface and it will adhere to the surface and cure by chemically locking up any and all H2O groups. Without H2O, no more rust can form.

Crankshaft

Originally posted by dougs70ss:
Not to be difficult but form their product description:

"POR-15 APPLICATION PROCEDURES
Surface preparation:
Rusted surfaces are best; seasoned metal and sandblasted surfaces are also good.
" Doug,

Thanks for saving me the time looking this up. I certainly would not have spent over 6 months sandblasting parts had it said not to. graemlins/angry.gif I specifically recall this statement you have quoted. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by dougs70ss:
Not to be difficult but form their product description:

"POR-15 APPLICATION PROCEDURES
Surface preparation:
Rusted surfaces are best; seasoned metal and sandblasted surfaces are also good.
" Notice it does say basically what I did, "Rusted surfaces are best"

Originally posted by MARTINSR:
Pstonhead, FastSS, funny you should say that about sand blasting because as I remember POR instructions specifically say NOT to sand blast. They say you SHOULD leave the rust there, just brush off the loose scale. graemlins/clonk.gif POR-15 Directions for use... Page #2...Questions and Answers... Question #8

Q-What is the best surface on which to paint POR-15?

A- POR-15 likes rusted surfaces best. Seasoned metal and sanblasted metal are also good. POR-15 does not adhere well to smooth, shiny surfaces, but will adhere well with the proper preparation.

MartinSR,

You know what they say your memory is the second thing to go!... I Can't remember what the first thing is! graemlins/clonk.gif

Originally posted by pstonhead:
just make sure you apply it directly to bare metal for best results, preferably sand blasted and preferably to areas that don't get hit directly by the sun unless topcoated. (yes UV will damage it) I think the "damage" is just cosmetic. The actual POR itself remains intact.

i see that you are going to try pickelit, lots of luck , i tried it and it didnt work , i think the worst part about rust convertors is that you must use water to neturalize the acid, (water,metal= more rust) lots of luck
Ron

There was one preperation method the local Por rep recommended against, and I think it was glass beading. I'll have to double check this next time he's in the area.

I have used POR-15 on various projects for about a year. I don't think anyone disputes that sandblasting before painting is always better, but this product (and others) gives people the option to do a quick cleanup, etch and paint. Under certain circumstances this is extremely valuable. For example, my son and I rebuilt the rearend in his 72 Chevelle with a 3.73 and posi and decided to degrease, wire brush and POR-15'ed it. It turned out very nice and has lasted so far a year without any noticable change. I have painted cars for over 20 years and I really don't think aerosol or automotive paint will survive nearly as well under those circumstances.

This test seems like a very good idea and I will be looking for the results.

I use a product called Chassis Saver. It is very similar to POR but it is a heck of a lot cheaper and their tech support is the best. I pay $67.75 per gal for Chassis Saver and $23.75 per quart. I found out about these guys last year and I'm glad, I was going broke paying $100 a gallon for POR. Check them out, they even sent me a free sample.

Forgot the link...must be time for some sleep!
http://www.magnetpaints.com/underbody.asp

Were these test ever carried out???

i didnt read all that but from what i understand its a rust "encapsulator" meaning it doest covert it.. it just kills it preventing further corrosion..

I use a product called Chassis Saver. It is very similar to POR but it is a heck of a lot cheaper and their tech support is the best. I pay $67.75 per gal for Chassis Saver and $23.75 per quart. I found out about these guys last year and I'm glad, I was going broke paying $100 a gallon for POR. Check them out, they even sent me a free sample.

x2 ive used tons of that stuff and i love it.. i really like it when sprayed.. it flows to a glass finish..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/brantleyb/chevelle/th_100_0818.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/brantleyb/chevelle/100_0818.jpg)

Hey Martin, Great idea.

These guys paid a lab to do your test on POR-15 and their product (among others) and published the results. Other labs have tested it also. I've yet to find another product that publishes these kinds of scientific test results. I used this on my rear housing and elsewhere and it worked great. http://www.rustbullet.com/


How about throwing this stuff in the mix? I've used it too with excellent results. Comes in oil and latex base.

http://www.rust007.com/

FWIW, I know the owner/inventer of POR-15. The product was created accidentally while trying to develop an adhesive. I agree that it has it's pluses and minuses. I don't care for the non-UV stable part and that it is actually a rust "encapsulator". The rust is still under it waiting for some moisture to re-activate it's corrosive properties.

While I believe it is possible to convert rust to a more stablized coating (with phosphoric acid) it still then becomes another coating, not native metal. I don't know if that's bad or not. If it's stable and doesn't "grow" is it ok under paint? I'm not a paint guy so I have to listen to you pro's.

We'll all be awaiting your experince with your test. Thankss for taking this on.

/herb

if it sits under there and minds its own business and never shows its nasty face again then i dont have any problems with it.. but then again.. lots of people are overly anal..

WOW, this thread was started in 2002.

I don't know if Martin has ever done the tests.

I have used POR and Coroless. I did the suspension, chassis, firewall, and entire underbelly of my 67. This was completed in 2000. Since then I have put approx 40K miles on it with alot of highway driving and lots of rain.

Prep for the coatings varied by component, some parts were blasted clean all the way to some parts just getting a quick wire wheel on a drill. All components have held up well and have not noticed any reoccurance of rust on coated parts.

I can say that the POR is much more chip resistant than the coroless. Of course I do have some rust showing in spots where the coatings were chipped completely off.

Besides being faily dirty after 6 years the underbelly of the car seems quite 'clean' if you know what I mean. I'm quite sold on the POR any if anyone wants to see the real world results first hand we'll crawl under the car at CB06...41 days away

I have it on the underside of my car, the suspension and the firewall, and I'm not all that impressed with it. I also use Eastwood's product and given that both hold up about the same, so/so, in my experience; I think Eastwood's wins out for cost and ease of use. The only thing I see that it does better is the flowing out without brush marks. It is easily chipped, rust will creep under it at any edge, and it fails when exposed to brake fluid.

I really do like por's epoxy putty however. great stuff. Even used it to repair a cracked chain saw engine, tough as nails.

Man, talk about a blast from the past! I remember when this was originally posted. But I didn't realize it had been over four years. Damn, where did the time go?

But in the time since, I used silver Por to coat my front and rear floor pans and finished result was fantastic! I also used the powermesh material to patch some pitting in the driver's side pan and the stuff worked as advertised. It's strong as armor plating. So far, my results have been great.

And the battery tray? Four years after posting my reply to Martin's original post, it still looks as good as it did the day I painted it.

So MARTINSR. Where's the results of your test? After reading this I wonder if I made the right decision to POR-15 90% of my car. So many people said it was such good stuff that I used it on nearly everything. Hmm, it will be garaged for the remainder of it's life so I may never have any problems.

I can't vouch for Por15 but I used a black Zero Rust on my 16' utility trailer 4 years ago. It was really rusty. I used a grinder with a wire brush to get the scale off first. It's out in the Tx weather every day. Still looks good. It does chalk if you don't clear it. I used it again a year ago for my metal garden shed roof. This time in tan. Still looks good and no rust bleed thru.