In reading 69ragtop's POR dialog, the recent how much did you pay dialog, of course MARTINSR's stuff, and some of my own stuff. I'm sitting here wondering OK, what is the optimum way for a guy on a budget to get a decent paint and body job to dress up his car?

I'm sure I can't be alone in having to make do with my car. There is no way I could ever spend $5,000 on paint and body for it. But do my limited resources have to keep me from my chosen hobby, and from enjoying my car? I think not. So what's the least bad way to go?

Let's assume the following:

$1250 budget

The owner:

Owner has the basic 3-5 horse compressor, electric sander, nice assortment of hand and standard misc power tools. Owner has no welding equipt and has no interest in buying it or learning to weld. Owner is very handy and is the guy all the neighbors come to for any type of car or home repair question, and of course, to borrow tools. Owner is willing to buy inexpensive hand and power tools necessary to do the work. Owner is willing to do all body and prep work and maybe shoot paint himself for the first time.

The Car:

Car looks like hell, but already has new engine and trans. Car has rust on roof from vinyl top with holes rusted through in some areas. There is also some of the standard rust through in the quarters behind the rear wheels. Minor rust through in window channels. Body is otherwise good. Current finish consists of original paint, cheap previous paint job over original, and misc. primer areas from most recent prior owner.

The Job:

Owner's budget is fixed. That's all there is. Owner understands he will not be getting the best job ever, but knows that even painting the car with gloss latex enamel would be a 100% improvement from its current appearance (NOT thinking of this, just making an example).

Owner is looking at holes and thinking - Hmm, fiberglass...... Owner is looking at paint and thinking - you know, if I sanded that stuff off and primed it I could get a cheapy paint job and still have money for some trim and w/strip.......Owner is dreaming of riding around with arm out window nodding at appreciative waves.......

What does owner do?

A good friend of mine stripped his 64 Beaumont down to bare metal,took off all the trim then called a guy from Maaco to come and have a look and give him a price.The guy said $1200 to finish and paint it.The body in bare metal was kind of rough and needed some bondo work so I thought for $1200 bucks it will probably look like s*%&.Remember that this is Canadian money we are talking about!Well he got the car back last month and I was amazed-impressed.It looks great and I think along with many others that he got a great deal.Try em.....

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1970 SS396 & 1967 Sport Coupe

Thanks - yes, I too used Maaco on my last project and was also pleased and entirely satsified with what I got for the money.

Not really looking to start another Maaco thread here - want a more general discussion of a variety of options.

Jack I can appreciate your situation. Remember the old phrase "pay me now or pay me later"? Well if the rust doesn't get cut out it will return.
I hate having my El camino setting while I wait on my bodyman. Had to wait to get the money together, had to wait and gather the information to put it back right, have been waiting on the bodyshop since Mar. See a pattern. I just think of another phrase,
" Good things come to those who wait". and it keeps me sane.
I think you'll be happier if its done right and not a quick fix. Just my .02

Jack, most things can be done by a first timer,rustholes are a problem.You can cut all the rust out make a patch and glue it in with a product from 3M or Duramix,we use it in the bodyshop all the time.Have yet to see the glue fail!!Used it as a quickie repair on my neighbors lincoln and still looks great after 2 years.Materials will be around $800.Try and find a painter who could shoot it in your area.I've walked a few people through a job,you do ALL the work and I,ll shoot it for $100 kinda thing. Mike

Glueing patch panels in place seems your best option without a welder. Go to the Duramix website or Fusor websites. Lots of great info on their varieties of glues and how to tips. I found a supplier of Duramix who will lend me the applicator gun for no charge if I buy his product. The supplier of Fusor will rent me a gun. You should find similar suppliers. Search panel adhesive on this site for more info also.

Yea gluing body metal together,now thats doing it right!!No rust will ever get behind that panel.

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1970 SS396 & 1967 Sport Coupe

Glueing panels is much better than welding when it comes to rust. First off, you don't burn the metal which is the first place it will rust. Second, you don't leave the seam unprotected. If you use an adhesive you TOTALLY seal off any bare metal. I feel very confident that when I glue cars, I am doing the best thing for the customer. I don't glue much, I weld 90% of the panels with adhesive only on a few places.

Glueing on a door skin is defenetly the best way to do it, as far as I am concerned. All for the above reasons.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Thanks guys for the info on gluing patch panels. This is a new concept for me and one I'll definitely look into.

Can anyone provide a basic summary of the process, tools needed, and cost of the adhesive?

What is a good source for the patch metal? Body shop junk bin? Roof flashing tin?

I'm also curious about experiences others may have had with patching small areas with fiberglass.

Don't have anything technical to share, just wanted to say that I got some awesome sheetmetal for making patches by rummaging through the cutoffs at a local body shop. I think they were 1/4 panels from an '80s Chevy truck, still had the GM label. Same gauge metal as my Caprice.

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Tony Nausieda
1970 SS 396 L34
1977 Caprice, roller SB406
1965 Le Mans EFI'd 468, M22, Global West, etc

My budget paint job will run around $4500. I saved about $1000 by stripping the car myself. I've gone the Maaco route before and was happy for the money I spent, but this time I want a "show quality" paint job. The highest estimate I got was for $9K. The lowest was $3500. Went with the shop that had a place for my ride indoors and that extends a lifetime warranty. Since the shop has been in business for about thirty years, I figure they'll be around if I need them down the road.

I think the only way that Maaco's prices are so low is that they must use inferior products. My body guy said the clear that he uses is about $300 a gallon. The devil is always in the details.

Tim

glued the panels on my 70 that stuff is awesome but i agree with TimC the supplies to paint my car cost over 1000 bucks used sikkens autobase. by the time i was done i was up there if you factor in base coat, clear, reducers, thinners, high built primers, with the hardners and activators, sand paper alone isnt cheap then the extras masking tape, paper, plastic, this stuff really adds up martin and eric should be able to vouge for that. i just think you get what you pay for to have things done that cheap at least where i'm from people cut corners and things come back to haunt you. if your on a tight budget i think its better to do it one step at a time then save up the money and do the next step

Thanks, good, helpful. But some are missing the point a little. $1,250 total. All there is. Ever. No later. Ever. Sikkens not required or desired. $300 gallon clear not desired or required.

Get me there for $1,250? Best way possible for $1,250.

When I started playing around with bodywork and paint and had no cash and no real tools, I used to pop rivet patch panels in, finish with bondo, and spray the car with $30 fleet enamel. Paint for a couple hundred bucks, now THAT was cheap! Looked fine for a few years until the rivets vibrated enough to show repair work and moisture got into the filler and bubbled out. I learned not to use pop rivets and bought a $300 no name mig and started welding in the patches. Repairs now looked much better and actually lasted. Started spraying with acrylic enamel with hardener and got much better results, still under your budget. You can paint your car for $1250, but you really should fix the rust right if you plan on doing this once and having it last. Cut out the rust, get someone to weld pieces in for you, do the bondo and finish work yourself, spray the car with PPGK200 primer surfacer, block sand, spray with PPG enamel or polyurethane with hardener, wet sand and buff. Cut corners on the rust repair and you might as well spray it with $30 a gallon farm enamel, cause the bondo work WILL come back and you get to do it again. If you have no desire to weld then you have to find someone who can. If the body work is right, even the farm enamel will look good!

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Dave
70 chevelle ss396 conv
66 chevelle ss396 hdp/conv
68/72 chevelles
55/57/61 chevies
TC member #493
Never forget Earnhardt!

Glueing patches is ok,but you will see it after its painted.If you glue a a quater panel for example you have to weld the sail panel.If you were to glue it,the seam will show up as a 'Ghost line' later down the road.say you glue a square patch on your lower quarter,the faint outline of the square will show up after a while.Dont know why but it is but it is.

The adhesive is real easy to use,just grind to bare metal apply glue to both panels and clamp or put a couple screws to hold the patch.As someone said it completely seals all the bare metal,something you can never do welding.As far as paint goes I know Carquest sells some off brand paints that are a lot cheaper,as long as they are two part primers and clears they work pretty well,espesially painting in a garage.They dry fast!!I use Dupont 7600s for door jambs and underneath hoods,it air dries in about an hour.All these paints will look good if you let the clear sit for a couple days before wetsanding and buffing. If you need more info hit me off board at painterdude169@msn.com Mike

Drptop70ss is right-

I am in the middle of doing just about exactly what you are talking about. I made the assumption that I could get a professional paint job for around a grand by doing the work myself- I was wrong! I am now months behind and severly over budget because I got in over my head. I have gotten great advice on this site which has helped, and I am learning a lot and do not neccessarially regret going as far as I did, but my budget was a little more flexible (not much, but I don't really have a choice anymore) If you really have 1250 to spend, I would go the budget route, make the car look decent and then in a couple years when the rust starts to cause problems again hopefully you will have the $$ to do it right. Just be aware that the rust will probably come back worse than it is now, but the bright side is that you will have gained the experience and you will be much more knowledgeable going into this the second time around. Plus- if you really go budget you can stay well under 1250, why spend that much money (1250 IS a lot of money) without getting good results. I say spend a few hundred to buy some time, and do it right a couple years donw the road when there is more $$ available. What ever you do do not strip the car to bare metal if you can avoid it- I did and that opened up a whole new can of worms that I needed to deal with and don't have the time or money to deal with! Long post- sorry, just relaying my (limited) experience

Good luck-

Nick

70isfine is right,but for around windows and bottoms of quarters you won't see the line,especially on light colors. Mike

I had a thread about my 66 a while back. It had been 15 years since I went out looking for a quality paint job. My body man reminded that times have changed and cars are generally rougher 15 years later. My price tag as of right now is 5K but I expect it to go higher but no too much more hopefully. I saved 1500 to 2000 by stripping it myself. I have seen some bodget paint jobs look good and some not so good. It will really be all about your expectations. Body shops just do not have an interest in this kind of work unless they specialize in it.

Good luck,
John Weaver

OK I am new to this so here is my question
( I am currently in the process of redoing a 70 Chevelle) What if all the paint is striped, the car is sprayed with POR 15 and then their primer and then body work is done,then the car is professionaly primed and painted. Would'nt this prevent the rust from coming through. Naturally you would have to spray everwhere with the POR 15 and their primer, but it seems that this would work.
Again - I am not that experenced at this , so it's just a thought.

Kevin

Let's separate the "refinish" part from the "body" part. As a shop owner we regularily "refinish" late model cars for $2k to $3k. This includes removeal of a lot ornamentation. It does not include major stripping or body repair. There is a big difference between "refinishing" a car and "restoring" one. Jack's description is that of a vehicle that needs A LOT of body repair before we even consider refinishing. If he just wants it shiny, the local "Shake & Bake" can help him out for an amount well within his budget. Where we are left with the impossible charge is if he expects to arrest or even hide 30 years of age and abuse. Just buying cheap paint will not solve his problem. nor will massive quantities of fiberglass and filler. If Jack wants to acquire a welder, learn to weld, learn and do all body work himself, he may be able to reach his goal. As others have said, there is a place for adhesives, and some of the high density fillers. His only restriction will be his level of knowledge, tools and his time. Karl

Here's what I would do -

For the small holes, use fiberglass patches and a coat of bondo. I've had some on floor boards last over 5 yrs now with no noticeable change. I believe the resin's a good sealant (although many will argue that.) You need to be able to get to both sides of the hole - it's tough to feather a patch if you only put it on the outside. You'd have to remove your headliner to patch holes in the roof (although you'd probably want to do that if you were welding too.)

Depending on how bad the rust is in the rear quarters, you may need to use repair panels. The glue should work fine on these if you don't want to weld.

In prep for paint, I wouldn't strip to bare metal, but I would sand down to the original primer, then prime and block sand where needed. Remove all your trim and take it to Maaco.
--
Ed

"There's never enough money to do it right the first time; but there's always money to do it again."

68Elkie, a version of that was on the wall of one of the first shops I ever worked at.

"Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over"?

I was lucky enough to work in a full on restoration shop for a couple of years as one of my first jobs. I learned to do it right. I had spent my first year in a shop doing used cars! Talk about a steep learnign curve!

Kevin, forget about the POR unless there is a specific reason. If you are looking for a "bestest fastest" way here it is along with other ideas here.

"Fix" any rustout by sandblasting and then Everglass or "Kitty hair" by Evercoat. I have seen both of these products use in this manner with great results. Prime the plastic filler work. Sand the entire car with 220 on a DA. Spot prime the large thrus.

Use a good enamel PRIMER/sealer and shoot with a Economy line of paint like NASON or OMNI in a urethane single stage.

There is nothing wrong with NOT doing a full on strip and frame off resoration.



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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Depending on your skill level you may want to check with your local community college’s continuing education classes. The local one here has an auto body night class with all the major tools like welders paint booth, spray gun, etc… and a semi retired instructor with over 30 years experience for $125 a semester. You have to furnish your own hand and small tools, supplies and the car.