I have been reading through posts for the
last two days and have learned a lot, however I was hoping you could make a
recomendation for my cars situation since it is a combination of posts
that I have read. Here it goes-

-rear quarters are new, primed with DP90
-decklid is an decent (old) repaint with a few scratches
-doors/hood are also a decent repaint with a couple of very small rust areas that I need to grind down and fix
-front fenders are new, with the factory coating on them

I would like to get the whole car into primer, it will take me a few
months once its primed to get the cash to paint it so I would like something I
can drive and leave it alone for a while.

What are your thoughts of DP90 vs Martin SR for what I will be doing?

Do I need to etch prime the rust repairs, and then put a epoxy over it?
What about urethane?

What do you recomend for the flexable rubber pieces?

What are your thoughts of DP90 vs Martin SR for what I will be doing?

Thanks a ton!

The DP line is a great line and a favorite of epoxy users so you can't go wrong. The Martin Senour epoxy #5120 (gray) 5121 (black) have more solids and will do a great job also.

I would personally only use a urethane on panels that require any surfacing or blocking. That probably includes your new quarters. So I like the idea of etch primer on all bare metal and then urethane. You can urethane over the DP primer you have. The etch is an added corrosion resistance. You "can" add it under the epoxy, I feel you must add it under the urethane.

As for leaving the car in primer, either urethane or epoxy would do the job. But if it is exposed to a lot of sun light expect the primer to break down a little. If it doesn't "white out" and start looking chauky, it will be fine. This usually takes a number of months or even years depending on the product.

Plastic and rubber parts need to be painted following the recommendations of the paint company you are using. If it is bare plastic or rubber you should use an adhestion promotor. If it is previously painted or primed by the manufacture you can skip that. But the particular brand you use could tell you to add hardener to the base, or flex additive to the clear, read the tech sheets.



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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

So would it be accurate to say that etch primers are epoxy primers?

Is it than ok to spray a urethane primer over panels that have paint on them currently, as well as new parts with factory primer?

What Martin Senour part #s would you recommend? (I don't quit trust my local NAPA counter guy)

And finally, is this something that I can do in my garage without a fresh air supply?

Thanks again!

No, etch primers are usually 1K(1 part) primers that are useful in corrosion protection. Epoxy primers are 2K(2 part) primers that are used, but not as effective as etch in corrosion protection.
I agree with Martin that etch primer, followed with urethane primer is the best all around system. You don't ever want to put yourself n a position where you have to sand any epoxy. It's too hard to sand. I Can't believe that people are still talking about and using DP primers. PPG have been telling it's techs that not to use it for any applications. They only continue to sell it because so many painters can't wean themselves of it. I'll say this again: PPG says don't use DP as a pre primer, use etch. PPG says don't use DP as a sealer because it can cause "die back". When the manufacturer tells you not to use a product, why do people continue to do so. I don't get it.
As to your second question, it would be OK to use urethane primer over old paint work but far better if you strip it first, apply etch primer, them urethane primer. And as to the second part of the question,yes,you could apply urethane primer directly on NEW panels produced within the last few years but,if your new panels were newmany years ago, I personally would want to get the primer off to make sure there is no possibility of rust going on under the primer.
As to your last question, I don't belueve that if you are priming and painting one car over several years or even one year, you don't have that much to worry about. Just use a good, new respirator,a paint suit, and maybe some eye protection and you should be OK. It's only if you paint day in and day out that you need more protection.

Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports http://groups.msn.com/Restorationphotos/shoebox.msnw?Page=1

"etch primers are usually 1K(1 part)" They are?? Everyone i ever used was two part,the prime and the converter.The converter is basicaly a metal conditioner mixed with the prime.Thats where the etching comes in.The only 1k etch primes i have seen are the rattle can type.

Etch primers are 1K in that they don't catylize(or crosslink chemically) like epoxies or urethanes do. The acid is just added to the primer much like it is in the case of "rattle cans"

Gordon, most etch primers are refered to as 2K. Anything that uses a "Catalyst" "reducer activator", etc is 2K just as anything with a "Hardener" is.

Here is Martin Senours 8847 PDS, http://www.martinsenour-autopaint.com/pds/martin/8104.pdf It is called a "two componant" in the first line of the discription. PPG's DX1791 MUST be mixed with DX1792 "catalyst" which makes it a 2K.
biggblokk, this etch 8847 Trio/PRIME is the one to use. Now, if you want to save some money, here is some inside information. Use Econobody 15210, it IS Trio/PRIME for half the money. If the NAPA guy doesn't believe me, tell him to get both MSDS pages and compare, they are EXACT.

As far as applying it over paint and factory primer, you are wasting money. It won't hurt a thing, but etch is designed for applying over bare metal for adhesion and corrosion resistance. If it already has primer or paint, you can sand it to get a great adhesion and the primer or paint there is going to give you as good corrosion resistance as you are going to get at that point, nothing applied over the top of it is going to change that, good or bad.

If you have a lot of sand throughs, go ahead and apply the Trio/PRIME dusting these sand throughs, then urethane prime the entire panel.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Martin, I'll have to respectfully disagree. Adding acid to etch primer does not make it 2K. Check with your paint manufacturer. If you use your reasoning, even laquer could be 2K if you add thinner or even retarder. The key is catylization and chemical cross- linking. This doesn't happen with etch. The other key is reversibility. If a coating cannot be wiped off with solvent(laquer thinner)it is is 2K.If it can be wiped off with thinner it is 1K, ie. etch primer.
That being said, there are some etch primers that are 2K. Spies has an etch that is mixed with a hardener that is used under their spray polyester. All of their other primers are considered 2K.
Gordon VM
http://groups.msn.com/Restorationphotos/shoebox.msnw?Page=1 Restoration Motorsports

Biggblokk, since you don't live too far away, e-mail or call me for info on paint or if even if you are interested in restoration services. Your e-mail doesn't work.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports
708-371-3790 http://groups.msn.com/Restorationphotos/shoebox.msnw?Page=1

Gordon, I understand I had a hard time with that also. The point is "something" is in the "activating reducer" that forces some sort of "cure". I have studied the MSDS and I don't see anything obvious but I am no chemist. I do know that M-S 8847 is insoluable, you can wipe it with lacquer thinner and it will not come off.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Like martin and gordon mentioned the best method is etch followed by a urethane primer.
Expoy primer any brand of expoy, be it PPG or sherwin williams, should not be used on bare metal. PPG no longers recommends the use of DP primers on bare metal and so do the big three. Look through any GM, ford or dodge repair guilde lines and the use of etch primers must be used in order for the car to retain their factory warrenty.

Ive just had too many bad experiences with DP primers on bare metal and know of others that had the same problems. Once I swithced to etch I no longer had the problems that I had when using expoy. I stripped my car down to bare metal then applied two coats of dp40. About two months later the car had rust bubbles coming through, the entire car!! Ive got parts that I stripped and just applied one coat of etch and they look the same the day I painted them and some are three years old. Just my opinion and experiences with expoy primers...Eric

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1970 chevelle
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a buick baby
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/sevt_chevelles

"Use Econobody 15210, it IS Trio/PRIME for half the money. If the NAPA guy doesn't believe me, tell him to get both MSDS pages and compare, they are EXACT."

Like MartinSR said- that is the part number for the Martin Senour etch primer. It is GREAT etch primer and it is TOUGH. Not for the "leaving it in primer route", but tough as in accidental scrapes and whatever don't scrape it off and A LITTLE exposure to sun and rain isn't going to toast it. I am currently using it- and am glad I took MartinSr's advice and looked at the PDS for it and TRIOPrime. It and the TrioPRime are the same product- just not the same price (which is GOOD). Your plan for your car sounds like what I am doing- here is my plan-

MS 15210 Etch PRimer

then

MS ???? TInt/PRime URethane PRimer (going to have to leave it in this awhile- but have read here MANY times it will hold up well, and all you need to do when your'e ready to paint is scuff and shoot- NO SEALER!)

Good LUck-

DP (out dated) maybe so, depending on what your using it for.
if your using it for bodyshop in today out tomorrow you might have shrinkage problems no time for solvints to dry out.

i use it for frames and anything that bolts to the frame, underbody and underhood stuff.
first i sandblast then applie two coats of DP90. ive had this stuff on parts for 10years with NO RUST PROBLEMS

etch primers, most people dont know but DP is a self etching primer. just dosnt say it on the label. it is the closet thing you can buy to match the EDP coating the factory puts on body parts.
it was designed for use on stainless and alum. so just imagine what it will do on plain old steel.
if applied correctly!

i know of people that have had brake fluid on DP and it didnt lift.
but just like anything in life their will be people who like it, and people who dont.


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70 SS396 CHEVELLE
70.5 Z/28 RALLYSPORT
ACES#4390
some pics http://community.webshots.com/album/12590431pqkzKyilTC



[This message has been edited by DONNY (edited 07-10-2002).]