This is alittle off the subject of bodyshop but this forum is my main hang out because of what I do for a living and that is body work. I finally got feed up with all the insurance compaines and all their BS when it comes to dealing with repairing a comsumers car. They dont care about the quailty they just want it done the cheapest and fastest way possible. then when the comsumer gets their car they complain that they didnt get that new fender they got a used one and that the aftermarket bumper doest shine as much as their orginal one. I get to listen to their BS about how I didnt put on the right parts and how it took so long, they just cant get the idea that I have no control over it, its the insurance company. Ive had it!

When its not a insurance job and a consumer brings their car in for some tocuh up I get to answer the phone every day and hear them ask hows my car coming, how much longer? All the time am thinking if you just leave us along and let us do your job instead of you bugging us it would be done faster, but NO!

Its hard for me to bust my a$$ on someones car that they themselves dont care about, why should I care if that quarter isnt dead straight if they dont care for the car as awhole, its just a means of getting to point A to B.

I guess I cant take this anymore, its gotten to point where I cant sleep at night I dont care to come in to work, I dont care frankly about anything. So I put in my two week notice last week and am done. I like doing bodywork but cant take the all bullsh!! that goes with it.

I decide to get away from everything and go on a little road trip out to the east coast. Go where ever the road takes me, see the world out side of Iowa. This coming saturday Iam packing what can fit in my truck and headed out east. For some reason I want to see niagara falls but after that who knows.

So if there are any fellow TC members out there on the east coast that wouldnt mind BS'ing about chevelles for a hour or two let me know and I would be glad to swing by, he!! Ill even buy the beer.

Thanks for letting me vent take care and have a good one...Eric

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1970 chevelle
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a buick baby
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/sevt_chevelles

Sounds to me like you have the IA blues.

There have been plenty of times that I wish I could do the same (just pack up and cruise the US aimlessly).

Best of luck!


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David
Camaro - '68 327 Coupe (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/cars/68camaro.htm), '86 Z-28 IROC 305 TPI (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/cars/86iroc.htm)
Corvette - '73 Mako Shark II (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/), '82 Cross-fire (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/cars/82vette.htm), '01 Coupe (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/cars/01vette.htm)

No matter what we do as human beings, even if we try our best, we'll never, ever make everyone happy.
DON'T TAKE IT PERSONAL! That will eat you alive!

With that said, sometimes the best thing to do to clear your head and revitalize the soul is a ROAD TRIP!

well if your get to the maryland/DC area give me a shout.

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72 Chevelle and a 70 Chevelle with a crushed roof
ACES # 4051 MCC # 448
TC # 1549 81/70 Cruisers

My friend is so fed up with the insurance companies dictating, telling him what he can and can't do and how much they will pay that he is seriously thinking about closing down his body shop and using it only to restore cars

In fact he has already gotten very picky about what he takes in
One of his body men quit and he says I don't even think I'll hire anyone to replace him, I'll just do what I can and what I want to do myself

In the future, I look to see all the small shops gone and the ones that are left will be owned by the insurance companies


As for the phone calls, I told him to get an answering machine so he don't have to quit what he is doing to answer the phone

Start a company doing classic cars. I have no idea about the Chicago area, but back home around Indy, people who will actually work on an old car is hard to find. We finally found one and he ended up screwing my Dad out of $8000 and me out ouf $500. He did good work WHEN he actually wanted to do it.

I have 3 other friends, all my age or younger (late 20s/early 30s) who have started companies that don't do any insurance work, only "fun" stuff, and their list for work is looooong. Dave builds street rods start to finish and has a 2 year waiting list and is building six figure cars.

Do the hobby a favor and come back from the dark side (insurance work) and help the rest of us out !!!


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my 67 droptop (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/mychevelle2.jpg)

Dad's 67 droptop (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/dads67.jpg)

Eric,
I don't think you've lost it at all. In fact, I think you're about to gain "it". Best of luck.

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Jim

"We have enough youth, how about a fountain of SMART?"
My '69 (http://www.geocities.com/jimschevellepage/)

It sounds like you need a vacation, and how! I sympathize with your plight. My insurance co. was all set to fix my daily driver when it was in an accident 3 years ago. When they heard how many miles were on it they said they'd write a cheque instead (what, for $2000 THANKS http://www.chevelles.com/forum/rolleyes.gif ). I insisted they fix it since it was a clean hit that didn't affect adjoining panels or gaps. Well, when I got the car back I was pissed off. Instead of an OEM fender they went with a cheap offshore fender. The wheel opening was extremely crude, like a 3 strike stamping instead of about 6 or 7. The fit sucked and the body shop of course heard about it. They were just working within the budget that the insurance co. gave them (peanuts). I would have happily paid $120 extra out of pocket for a decent fender. I realize that paying them for 10 years doesn't give me an entitlement to a body-off resto, but in their terms it is called 'betterment' which means the car is fixed to a point better than it was (mine was really mint). Unless you have a professional appraisal to vouch for the car's value then that's just the way it is.
Unfortunately most body shops are under the gun for the paying insurance companies. True craftsmanship is expensive and most people would choke on what it costs for that.
Eric, I don't doubt that you got into bodywork because of the sense of accomplishment and pride of craftsmanship. I'd still love to get into it myself just so I could control the finished product. The reality is that 'He who pays the piper calls the tune' and ideals are at odds with the reality of the business. Take a nice break to clear your head, then reassess your situation. BS can and does happen in every profession. I know musicians who love making music but got out of the business because of the BS. Good luck and stay cool.


[This message has been edited by Cam (edited 08-13-2002).]

Eric, if you ever get the way of NC be sure to holler at me! Will be glad to take ya out for a brewsky, heck, I will even buy you one! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif
I work with Ins. companies all the time only mine is with medical claims.
YOU don't EVEN want me to start on that. Would make everyone sick sick sick. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/mad.gif

Have a great trip and relax buddy!!!

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My Dream - Buttercup (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/butercup.jpg)

1970 Chevelle SS 396 350
2001 Chevy Silverado 4x4 Z71 350 Vortec
Team Chevelle #0796
ACES #05033
Late Great Chevys #162426
American Muscle Car Assoc. #000488
Real women don't have hot flashes, they have power surges.

Life is short, Enjoy it!! Do whatever makes you happy. Dont forget the west coast, take advantage of your quiet time.

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1965 El Camino
350-turbo 350
"someday it will be finished"

If the east coast includes the south, come by and see us in NC. I'm just a little east of Raleigh. Beer, pork BBQ and hospitality are our specialities. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif
B~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brian
"If things ain't going right, go back to sleep. Dreams will get ya there."
66 SS396 frame off WIP (http://home.mindspring.com/~btlinder)

Eric, You can come visit an Iowa transplant in the Sunshine state. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif
I pity anyone who's livelihood is dependent on insurance companies.

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TC #364
Aces #4309
Jeff's 69 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/daytonajeff1.jpg)

Hey Eric,don't feel bad.I lost it about a year ago and quit my flat rate DRP dealership BS body job for the same reasons you stated.I could't take it either,the insurance company pays $40 for a fender made in Taiwan and pays an hour to put it on(of course this time is based on the removal and reinstallation of a OEM fender that actually fits)And you spend half your day trying to make it fit like a $300 OEM fender.Whats wrong with this picture?I bust my ass to make a peice of crap fender fit so they can save some bucks, and the customer gets a non OEM part?And i also take a hosing on the time i'm paid to install it.I had to fight for all my R&I times and follow up on all the supplements to make sure i got paid for them.I put used quarters(no trim time!)on vehicles only a year old,And the salary for all this insanity?A whopping 37K a year (if i can clock the expected 55 hrs in a 40 hr work week of course.)I said screw it and went to work for a restoration/custom shop.That was OK until i got laid off when everyones wallet tightened up when the economy went south.Heres an idea for you.My good friend and former coworker was just hired as a claims rep for a major insurance company doing auto claims only.$40k a year to start,full training and a company vehicle,laptop,digital camera ect.I have an interveiw with the same company on thursday and they seem real interested in talking to me.Seems they want guys with some real world experience for a change.Hey if you can't beat em join em.If your interested i can shoot you the website that lists openings and how to apply.It seems like the perfect thing for a bodyman who wants out of the shop but not out of the biz.Good luck

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http://photos.yahoo.com/ochrisl
Updated 8/10 PAINT!

Eric, If you get to Southern Maryland, I'll be glad to take you over to meet BillK and maybe Wally too. If you want, I'll email you my phone number.

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Leo Paugh
Maryland Chevelle Club #017
A.C.E.S.#3731
progress has little to do with speed, but lots to do with direction.
Maryland Chevelle Club (http://www.chevelles.net/mcc/mcc.htm)

Eric, Take a break. Enjoy the drive and meet some of these great people. Hate to lose you from this industry, we both know that we NEED good people. All comments above are accurate. In our shop they only way we keep our sanity is to divide responsibility between all. Body people do body, paint people do paint, estimators write estimates and assist customers. We have a parts person, production manager, two estimator/customer service people, one administrator to insure ALL paper work flys with insurance co, detailer, building maintainance person, and two owners. Parts person also handles mechanical parts for that department. These people provide support and resources for 5 body, and 2 paint staff. That is almost a 1 to 1 ratio of support to production. Just spent $2000.00 to re-certify all body staff in welding (I-CAR) Spend approximately $600.00 a month on collision related computer software. Shop is I-CAR gold class certified, all techs are trade school graduates, have passed all ASE tests for their specialty. Average age of production staff is 35. We Have four Caroliner benches, one Chief G18, Two Spraybake down drafts, and two Spraybake prep stations. Like it or not collision repair is big business. I started out 16 years ago at age 36 in two rented stalls, I did all those jobs. Worked 14 to 16 hours a day. Never could get enough done. Had to grow and add staff to survive. There are environments in our industry where you can prosper and be happy, fixing cars. Find a larger independent shop that is committed to providing the support you deserve as a craftsman. Let the shop resolve ALL insurance related issues. My guys make 70 to 90K a year plus benefits. Minnesota does NOT allow use of aftermarket sheetmetal without owners' permission. Used parts are utilized, however, we get paid to fix damage or send them back. The insurance companies will ALWAYS have a significant influence over our rates and procedures. Without the insurance industry everything would be lowest bid, cars would not be properly repaired, and we would REALLY hate this industry. They have the money, they make the rules. Most state insurance commissioners have a VERY close relationship with the insurance companies. TOO close, Our protection is an educated customer, constant, effective negotiation, and an active trade association. Have a great trip, if you get lost, stop in Lakeville Minnesota, I'll buy. Karl

I feel your pain. 10 years ago I owned a body shop in the middle of some big EPA crack downs and was frightened into a new line of work and only work on classic cars as a hobbie.
My new buisness (home painting contractor) has the same pitfalls you described its nothing but putting out fires everyday for mostly ungrateful customers who dont care how many hours you work or how often you see your family. I think of driving across country at least 20 times a day.
They say you should ask yourself what you would do if you were independantly wealthy and didn't have to work, and create a new career for yourself in that field. Some might say you couldn't loose because your interest in that one thing would drive you to succeed. Who knows?
Good luck and if you drive through NW Indiana look us up we've put up many friendly travelers /billiards, BBQ, BEER, and of course all the chevell and el camino bs you can stand (mostly el camino)

Hey if you are planning to come to South Carolina let me know as I am still working on replacing the rear seat floor pan. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif I am getting closer at getting all the spot welds drilled out. Cheer up take a break we are all pulling for you.



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Deon
72SS454 Clone
Website (http://home.sc.rr.com/deon)

I quit the dealership for the same reason except I was in the mechanic shop dealing with warranty companies. One time I was told to send a crankshaft to the machine shop to have one journal turned. The machine shop sent it back, said that the thrust face was worn. I was relieved. I liked Karl's answer. As a mechanic I shouln't have to deal with negotiating what we will and wont do. A good shop forman/service manager/adviser will take care of most of that.

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64 ElCamino (http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jul/20027306594843713937468.jpg) 350 700r4 3.42 posi

Thanks everyone for the kind advice, it put a big smile on my face when I saw that 17 people had replied and not a one called me loon!

Many times have I thought about staring my own little resto shop out of my shop at home. I enjoy slinging mud and getting covered in primer dust. Who knows I just might do that when I get back home. My boss at the shop I work at now even mentioned I should do that. He's a big time street rodder and always building rods and knows lots of others that are looking for body guys that do work on older stuff. He even mentioned that if I do start one he would quit building his own and hand them over to me to build due to he just dont have the time to build them anymore. The only hang up I have about starting something like is I dont have the name. I think it would be hard to do without some type of name for yourself started, maybe not I dont know. Plus the other factor is my age am 24 years old. I started going bodywork when I was 14 and have been doing it ever since, even have a degree. I did my first resto on my 72 truck by the age of 17. After that bought my first chevelle and finsihed that a year later only to sell it. The thing is on the age deal is that when I go to shows and people see my cars or my trucks they say "thats pretty cool that your dad let you drive his car."

All I say to that is its mine and I built it myself all by myself. Some people just cant see that some 24 old kid can build something like a 72 chevy truck or a 70 chevelle they think that daddy bought for them. I just dont think people would feel comfortable letting a 24 year kid restore their car, maybe am wrong for thinking this but it just what ive dealt with in the past.

What do you guys think?? Would you feel alittle on the uneasy side if you walked into the shop that is doing your car and saw someone of my age working on it?

AWW fu@# it I know am good, resto shop here I come MAYBE. I would love to meet all guys out there and drink a beer or two. If you want just email me your phone number and hopefully Ill see you sometime. Like I said before Il buy the beer, hope you like Rolling Rock! Once again thanks for letting me vent and get out of my system and hope to see some of you guys...Eric

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1970 chevelle
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a buick baby
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/sevt_chevelles

I'm a about an hour south of Charleston, so if you hit SC, give me a yell.

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Honey, its not a $200 hat. The distributor was $200, the hat came with it. kevin d
Classic Cars and Trucks of Beaufort #72
TC #1108
ACES #4586

Sevt, no one starts "with a name". You make your name(reputation) as you go. If you are good at what you do, the name will come. When I started a small shop many years ago as a sideline, it took about six months to build a client base by word of mouth advertising. I did mostly Corvettes and classic/special interest cars by appointment only and I usually was booked several weeks in advance.

One word of advice...If you intend to stay in the body/paint business, you may need to adjust your thinking about insurance companies. Stop viewing them as an adversary and look at your dealings with them as a firm, but courteous, negotiating partner. A great number of the adjusters/appraisers have worked in body shops and know what it takes to properly repair a vehicle. I've never had a problem getting what I needed from 99% of the adjusters including additional labor to correct aftermarket parts or the labor expended attempting to fit an unfitable aftermarket part. The 1% that I had problems with, were barred from my shop.

Eric, trust me on this. If you do even 1/2 way decent work (which I'm sure you exceed) THEY WILL COME! You won't have to advertise and you will not run out of work!
I was doing body & paint again after a long absence as a hobby only. A few months after I finished my first car, i had 5 cars lined up to do for friends and aquaintences. I don't even know how it happened! It sure wasn't planned. I started quoting really high prices to scare them away. It didn't work! They paid!
I moved and don't really have a shop to work now. but if i did, I'm sure people would be knocking on my door. You're the right age to start a business and not look back. If you have a shop @ home already, you're at a big advantage with low overhead. You won't be able to work out of there for too long but it will provide a great place to start. Good luck and have fun cruisin!

I said it before and I'll say it again. Reliable, trustworthy bodymen who work on the old stuff are worth their weight in gold. Go for it! Of my three friends I mentioned earlier, one is 24, one is 26 and the other is 31. And they all have a waiting list.

Go for it!

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my 67 droptop (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/mychevelle2.jpg)

Dad's 67 droptop (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/dads67.jpg)

Eric, bring your trailer and you can take my 64 home to have something to do when you get home.

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Leo Paugh
Maryland Chevelle Club #017
A.C.E.S.#3731
progress has little to do with speed, but lots to do with direction.
Maryland Chevelle Club (http://www.chevelles.net/mcc/mcc.htm)

Eric....Good Luck in your adventure....

I, too, and pitching it for the "good life". I am currently the Electrical Shop Superintendent at a manufacturer of conveyor systems for the auto industry. We build the electrical control panels that run the conveyors. Management and I have very different views on how you build a quality product, on time and under budget. Well my shipping clerk (certified mechanic on the side) and I are about to enter a partnership in a 6-bay service garage one block east og Gratiot Avenue in Eastpointe, Michigan.

Been my lifes dream to have my own business and now I am closer than ever and am not giving it a second thought about giving up my $55K/yr stress laden pain in the a$$ friggin' job. I don't tip the good stuff anymore, but if you get to the Detroit area I can guarantee you that you will not find a better BS'er in the state.

Take care, keep the shiny side up, and good luck. E-mail me if you want my number.

Oh yea, I am 48 and i got a wife and two kids still at home and one in college.

Mike

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"What I need is an exact list of specific unknown problems I might encounter."
Team Chevelle #858
A.C.E.S. #...52hundredandsumthin"http://hotred66ss.homestead.com

wow, the only difference between me & you is Im 25. Ive had a few cars in magazines, and love to do resto and custom work, but hate insurance work. my wife just had a baby so im a little hesitant on going off on my own. I say if you can, do it. I am as soon as I can.

Well Eric if you plan on seeing the Falls,you will be taking your life into your own hands! As you will have to drive right into the drinking,partying,swearing,story telling,and part time preachers section of T.C. You can't get there without going right by me,then it gets worse! You'll have to get by Gene Chass, and then Framer if your luck is really bad!!!

Eric, hang your shingle out. That's how I started, out of my garage. I've grown out of the garage and into a shop. I've specialized in the work the "big" high-production shops don't care to do; restos, complete refinish, dent and ding specials, custom paint work. Basically the stuff that is customer pay, not entirely insurance. The only advertising I've done is a few "custom" paint-jobs and several restos when I was just starting out, the rest has been word-of-mouth. I have two fleet contracts; rental car agency and an used car dealership, for the bread-and-butter stuff, the quick turn-n-burn easy money. Then I choose what I want to do next, yes I turn some work away, but it's for my sanity. I still do some insurance work, it can pay well, but I pick it. In my opinion, anyone who is talented in this business can do very well! Keep your head up and go for it http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif
And if your road-trip heads North, we can still catch the tail end of the Salmon runs. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif
Good Luck

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'68 SS-396 (still workin' on it)
"Need a good hobby?? I recommend drinking"
-2 Below Custom Automotive
Fbks, AK.

Eric,
I've been in business 12 years, and have a lot of experience in making customers happy. Part of the problem you describe is customers that don't care for the car.
I have a suggestion: Go get several copies of the street racing magazines, and focus a new business on custom bodywork geared toward the age group with the most disposable income (teenagers), and the most competitive peer group when it comes to 'looks'.
I guarantee you'll get rich quick, and sleep nicely at night.
I'll be waiting for my commission http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif
JR

Eric,
Sounds to me like you've got a lot of common sense and take pride in your work! You'll go places and I have no doubt about that! Stick to your guns and hold on to those values of quality workmanship because guys from the OLD school are hard to find nowadays.
I'm in Central Pa. near the Susquehanna River so if you are close in your travels give me a holler and we'll do a little smallmouth bass fishing! Awesome stress relief!!

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Scott Wolfe
Leck Kill, Pa.
70 Chevelle SS L34

If you do take off somewhere, and come through Chicago (which you'll have to from Iowa), and want to stop by, just let me know. I'm in Forest Park.

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my 67 droptop (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/mychevelle2.jpg)

Dad's 67 droptop (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/dads67.jpg)

Eric.. If you head to New Jersey (or want too) I would be glad to have you!!! Heck.. You can even put in a few hours on my baby to get the bug of noone caring out of you http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif Seriously if you want to swing by let me know and I'll send you my number http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

PS If you are looking for a start in restoration I know of a guy here in NJ that need someone and he ONLY deals with classics.. If you are as good as you say (which I don't soubt) he'd hire you in a minute!

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X-Ray View of my Chevelle http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif (http://www.normieschevelle.com/sideview.jpg)
Getting Closer (http://www.normieschevelle.com/passfull.jpg)
my baby in primer (http://www.normieschevelle.com/prime/primerdrv.jpg)

[This message has been edited by normie (edited 08-15-2002).]

Hello!

I didn't get a response from my email, so I'll ask you out here in the open where I am sure you will see it.

I have a car that needs paint. If you would send me a quote, and it is something remotely in the price range I am looking at, then you could have my car for couple of months before you would even get a call - but most likely I still wouldn't be ready for it and just need a look to keep steamin ahead on the rest of the restoration. Email me! I don't care if you don't have a name! I plan on going to at least some shows and stuff and your name and contact info sure would make it on my spec poster!

Nat

Oh yeah - if you just want a short road trip, I am just north of Waterloo/Cedarfalls, one of the like 5 bigger towns in Iowa. You could stop by - and even though I can't have any beer I sure love to talk cars! My dad does too, and I bet he would drink at least a couple!

Also - People sure better believe that I am just about the only person to have turned a wrench on my car or I will be a little upset! Being 18 though, I am sure they won't believe. I am just watching some of the major stuff this time (the actual painting, short block assembly, rear end assembly) so that I can do it next time. lol. Probably the only way there will be a next will be to sell this one, but I would lose way to much money then http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif

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Restorin' a '69 Malibu/SS Clone
396 - .030 over
Complete Performer Package, Closed Chamber Oval Heads, and way to much invested.
700-R4, Bow Tie or Phoenix?
New Front Brakes!
And frame is bare right now, reassambled soon!

[This message has been edited by R&NMalibu (edited 08-15-2002).]

[This message has been edited by R&NMalibu (edited 08-15-2002).]

Not to worry Nat, that is how most of us got started, mostly by watching and cleaning parts/scrapping gaskets.

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Leo Paugh
Maryland Chevelle Club #017
A.C.E.S.#3731
progress has little to do with speed, but lots to do with direction.
Maryland Chevelle Club (http://www.chevelles.net/mcc/mcc.htm)

Eric, here is a tip. Pledge your word and keep it. If it takes losing a little time to satisify a unhappy customer, then do it. Tell your customers you are expensive and worth it. Then prove it to them. I started at 22. Word about good work travels fast and if you are good, the best customers will find you.

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jmhardin@yahoo.com
1967 Chevelle Malibu stock 90% original
1965 SS Convertable - rough

The 67 Beast before restore (http://users.bscn.com/~jhardin/chevelle%20pics/Chevelle_on_trailer_pass_side.jpg)

Thanks everyone for the great advice. I wisH I could stay and chat for awhile but its time to leave!

Y0ou guys have a good one and again thanks, hope to see some of you later...am out of here...Eric

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1970 chevelle
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a buick baby
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/sevt_chevelles

TRAVEL UPDATE - Eric was last spotted heading east on I-80 after stopping in the Des Moines area briefly Sat. morning. After getting a few measurements off my car I tried to convince him we needed him in Iowa (especially on a certain convertible whose owner is anxious to get completed) but he seemed to have a determined look in his eye as he merged into traffic and put pedal to medal.

An Eric sighting in wonderful New Jersey!! After getting lost in da hood and being rescued unscathed we went over to the resto shop and had a look around and had some dinner. I also took him to see my work in Progress. Very Nice Guy.. Pleasure to meet him. Although I think he was overwhelmed by Trenton, I think he had a good time and will always remember the hamburger http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif I didn't try to convince him to stick around as he seemed to have the traveling bug... Good Luck and Safe Trip Eric http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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X-Ray View of my Chevelle :D (http://www.normieschevelle.com/sideview.jpg)
Getting Closer (http://www.normieschevelle.com/passfull.jpg)
my baby in primer (http://www.normieschevelle.com/prime/primerdrv.jpg)