I have to think of where to begin here. I purchased a restored 69 Chevelle SS about 3 months ago. There have been some modifications to the motor, to include headers (thought this may pertain to the problem) and a performance ignition system, intake, cam, etc.

About the 10th time I took the car out for a joy ride, I parked in a lot by a local park. When i got back in the car, i turned the key, and nothing. No clicking or anything. It was like there was no starter even in the car. The accessory lights came on and all. After about 45 minutes, i tried again, and it fired. So I drove it to my house, and turned it off in the driveway. When i tried to fire it again about 5 min later to put it in the garage, same thing. So I jiggled wires, looked around for anything apparent, but ended up waiting it out again.

So I take the battery down and get it tested. It is borderline, but still had life. I didnt want to chase ghosts from a questionable battery, so I put a new one in.

Next day, same damn thing. So this time, I tap the solenoid with a 3/8 12 inch extention, and it fires. Must be a stuck solenoid. Problem solved, right????? Wrong. So I put a new starter in (not rebuilt) and got similar results. Check this out. With the new starter, I am able to get it to start one time by tapping the solenoid. The next time, it doesnt work. So I hook up some jumper cables, and it fires right up.

So now I am thinking, alternator must not be doing its job. I occasionally see the generator idiot light on (sometimes bright, sometimes dim, but very sporadic). So I follow the factory manual, and rev it to 2000rpm and put a multimeter on the alternator housing and the positive lead on the alternator. I get a high 12s reading (not 14s as expected). So now I get a new alternator and install it, and the damn thing still does it. Now all I have to do is hook up jumper cables and she fires right up.

I thought maybe the headers were heating the starter up too much. I have the heat shields on both the starter and the solenoid. I have waited until it was cool to see if that was the problem. I have tried rotating the engine manually to see if it was a high spot on the flywheel. So what the heck could I be facing at this point? I have checked my grounding from battery to engine, battery to frame, engine to frame. If anyone could at least point me in a direction of something else to try, it would be greatly appreciated.


HELP!!!!!

Thanks in advance,

Bob Borner

Sure had a strong feeling that the ground strap between engine and body wasn't doing it's thing, but you say you checked that. Check it again?

Or, you could do what millions of other people do, and that is let it idle for hours on end, and never shut it off!

haha maybe ignition is going out. or it could be the distributor. maybe one of the wires got burned. i forgot the name of the certain wire. but it has happened to me before. check it out. its in the pickup and rotor.

Had the same problem in my 76 Trans Am. Always when the engine was hot and setting for a while. One time when it wouldn't start I poured water over starter and solenoid (not easy). It started right up. That told me that its just getting too hot being so close to the headers. I had a shop make a high torque starter out of the stock starter and sometype of heavy duty solenoid, it solved my problem some how.

Sounds like resistance in either your positive or negative battery cables.
Even though they may look good, they erode inside and will not transmit enough juice.
Replace both cables with good cables. And buy good cables. I mean the ones that have the heavy ends soldered on. Get 2-0 or 4-0 minimum.
Don't buy the el cheapo cables with the bolt on ends.

It's possible you got a bad rebuilt starter as well.
Did you have it bench tested before you installed it?

Nate

Sorry Guys But I Have To Say That You Are All Chasing The Wrong Issue. I Have Encountered This Problem Many A Time.i Have A Guy That Works On My Cars For Me And I Have A 38 Chev Pu That Runs 10.20 1/4 Mile. Well I Was Doing Alot Off Strret Racing And The Cops Showed Up One Nite And There I Was , Slicks, 2 Jugs Race Fuel, 3 Bottles Of Nos And A Truck That Wouldn't Start. Needless To Say It Was Fixed The Next Week, And Never Ever A Problem Again. He Hooks A Relay In Line And It Cures The Hot Start Problem . He Has Performed This Procedure Dozens Of Times And It Has Never Failed!!!

I had a similar problem with my 69. Is the alternator an int. regulated one? if not, the connections going into the voltage regulator might be loosening up or the voltage regulator could be bad. I had the same issues, changed the voltage regulator, and thing started fine after. hope that helps.

in what line?

Does your car have an HEI distrubitor ? If so, check the module. I had a simular problem and that's what it turned out to be.

i dont know if it would cause those symptoms but if you upgraded to an hei you need to lose the resistor wire that ran to a points distributor....just from the solonoid tapping stuff im going with cable guy (Mr69, i think), get good heavy cables, i got some beefy ones from napa and put in a remote solonoid and an optima battery and i never had a single non-start till the optima died after almost 6 years of reemarkable service, i'd pay twice what they charge for those things, just for the service... not to mention the lack of acid and its user friendly side effects, anytime ive seen modules go out they just didnt start, ive never seen one effect the cranking system...good luck

one last thought: i dont know if you dropped the starter out but i'd check the connections going into the starter, sometimes the backing nut (or whatever you call it) that holds the lug tight to the housing comes loose and check the ground connection from the solonoid to the starter, sometimes they dont handle abuse well either

oops, i see now where you did swap out the starter....nevermind:)

I'm also betting on bad battery cables or ground straps.

But some other possibilities - neutral safety switch or ignition switch is bad or loose.

Sure had a strong feeling that the ground strap between engine and body wasn't doing it's thing, but you say you checked that. Check it again?

Or, you could do what millions of other people do, and that is let it idle for hours on end, and never shut it off! stupid answer
Engine to body ground straps have absolutely nothing at all to do with the starter, the starter gets it's ground from the block which gets it's ground from the neg, battery cable.

HEI has nothing at all to do with the starter either.

Nate is on the right track, not enough power to the solenoid caused poor connections somewhere or a weak solenoid.
(you can't ever assume a new part can't be the problem)

A remote Ford solenoid or relay will solve the symptoms.

Dean, you're right! That was a stupid answer! I take it back.

Dean, you're right! That was a stupid answer! I take it back.

No don't do that, I don't want to be the only person on here posting stupid answers :)

I had this same weird issue with a 69 Camaro. Turned out to be the ignition switch above the steering column. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, no rhyme or reason. Replaced the switch and never had the problem again.........just a thought!!!!

You Could Make This A Lot Easier On Yourself If You Checked Voltage At The Solenoid With Someone Turning The Key. Or Just Try The Screwdriver Start Technique.

Seen this on a 67 Camaro. The wire harness at the fire wall where it attaches to the fuse box had a bad connection. If you pushed on the harness the car started. The car did the same thing did not crank at all.
Do the jumper wire test on the starter (start wire) and for the heck of it on the ground issue use your jumpers and attached the jumper right to the starter to varify the ground. You need to be sure the starter is getting the power from the ignition switch.
Quick test use a volt meter with jumper wires on the starter to check power to it. Then go from there.

I agree that from the original question, we got way off track, if you don't already have one get a ohm / voltage meter. Now days there cheap, get a digital one, any radio shack, OSH, auto store, hardware store etc will have them. Then you can meter the voltage or lack of voltage to the solenoid. Then you can use it on ohm's / continuity to check all of your ground straps.

dont forget to let us know if and when you find out for sure what the problem is/was...we're on the edge of our seats here

theres an exact thread of what brains saying, but, it died without him solving the "jiggle the harness" problem, or at least, telling us if he solved it, for my money anytime theres wacking or jiggling of hardware its gotta be a connection (or lack thereof) of some sort, intermittant (read that: "happening at the worst possible times") electrical problems are the worst

Sorry about that guys. I had to complete my "honey-do" list yesterday, and didnt get a chance to play. I did pickup 2 new 4ga battery cables (the good ones from Napa as stated with the fixed, soldered ends), as i did notice, when i took the old negative cable off, some corrosion on the end. I will put them on today. If that doesnt solve the problem, I will pull out the trusty Fluke and start testing. I am going to work on it today, as I took a PTO day from work :)

I want to thank everyone up to this point for giving me so many more ideas to try. I will post my results as they come.

Bob

O.K., I must've been crazy ! The Chevelle had starting problems. Sometime it would and sometime it wouldn't start. You never knew when it would happen. What finally fixed it was the module in the distrutor. No doubt about it. Haven't had starting problems since. Except when I get a tank full of bad gas.

Oh yeah, no doubt a bad ignition module will keep a car from starting, Just can't have anything to do with the starter solenoid operation because it's a totally different circuit.

There is a couple of problems with checking the voltage;
1. It is almost impossile to get a meter lead on the "S" terminal, especially with headers and especially when it's hot which is when you need to be checking it.
2. If you could get a meter on it and have a helper hit the key, it will probably work fine then since intermittent electrical peoblem have a way of never failing when you are checking. :(

What I did on my son's car is attach a piece of #14 stranded wire long enough to reach up near the battery to the "S" terminal while the engine was cold.
Then when the solenoid failed to engage I could check the voltage AND touch the wire to the positive battery post to start the car.

but, ya still love those new cables, right?...if nothing else, you know thats not the prob

the ignition module absolutely will not effect the starters ability to turn over the engine,period. the relay idea is stupid. it may work,but all that means is that it is making the solenoid work by giving it a full 12 volts (indicating that that is what it is lacking),due to either bad grounding,voltage drop by the time it hits the soleniod,or heat soaked windings in the starter (from headers). unhook the (small) power wire from the solenoid and have a friend turn the key to the START position while you test with a volt/ohm meter,and be sure you are getting a full 12 volts. as far as the grounds go,like they said you can't see most of the problems the cables will have,corrosion will be inside and is DEATH to conduction of both power and ground. again the ohm meter can tell you what you are dealing with. i can't tell you the numbers you are looking for,but for a 4-6 foot long,large diameter power/ground cable,the ohm resistance should be quite minimal (i'd ask a local electric or wire supply store). if the resistance is out of spec. for the guage and length of the cable then it has internal probs and needs replacing. if the problem happens when the car is cold as well as hot then it is not heat soak. however if it is,i HIGHLY recomend a new AC DELCO permanent-magnet vortec style starter. i got one from the junkyard off a 96 and up 454 truck with a 168 tooth flywheel,and it bolted right up with the same wiring hook up.it cost me $55.00,it's the size of a beer bottle,weighs 1/3 to 1/4 if the old one and is not affected by the heat like the old cast iron one. the best part is that it uses 1/3 of the amps that the old one did to operate,and the gear reduction sounds awsome! (this was the fix for my hot start problem). DAMN I TYPE TO SLOW,YOU GUYS COVERED HALF MY STUFF WHILE I WAS TYPING!

I had the same problem a month ago, I replaced the starter. The problem appeared to be a deadspot in the starter. I have not had the problem since.

Aside from the hot and ground leads direct from the battery to the starter and block, it's worth changing the hot lead to the terminal. Had similiar problems. Mine was grounding against the core support due to dried wire insulation.

painless wiring sells a relay with directions. also put a late model perm mag starter in car.

Sorry for the late reply, I had to fly out of town for business. I replaced the terminal wires with the soldered ones I got from napa. Unfortunately, I have the same problem. I didnt have enough time to run a test probe to the S post on the starter. I took the car down to Subway to test it out. Sure enough, when I got out of Subway, the car would not start. It was the exact same problem. I took out a 12" 3/8 extention and touched it to the positive terminal on the starter and leaned it against the S post, to start it. That worked fine.

When I got home, I tested it again, and got the same thing. So I hooked up the jumper cables, and this time the starter engaged, but the gear did not engage the flywheel. And after I backed the key off so the starter wasnt engaged, the starter stayed on for a few seconds, but the bendix gear never engaged the flywheel. After a few seconds it stopped on its own. I tried it again, and it started fine. This thing is just quirky. New starter, alternator, battery, and a whole variety of problems. Just out of curiosity, if I mount a remote solenoid, will that address a heat issue from the headers? Sorry, this is the first time i heard of such a thing.

Other than that, I will be back in town next Monday, and am going to test the wiring itself from the ignition switch in the steering column to the starter. Anyone have any other ideas based on my new/continuing symptoms?

Thanks again,
Bob Borner

I had the exact thing happening with my 67 a couple years ago. Cold start worked fine, but after a little tour and a few stops in town, it would not turn over, no click nothing. With a boost away it would go. Very frustrating. I checked and cleaned connections, replaced solenoid then starter, with no change.
One day I noticed my rad had a pinhole leak and pulled it out. Almost plugged solid. Had it recored and not a starting problem since. I have to assume in my case anyway this was allowing the motor to overheat and between it and the headers was just allowing too much heat getting to the starter.
Sounds crazy maybe when you are thinking electrical problems only, but hey its worth a check.
Good Luck, I remember how frustrating that problem was.
Dunc

A Ford solenoid will get rid of the hot start problems. I have'nt had a problem in 4 years after installing one on my 454. I used one from a 75 Lincoln V8 with all accessorys. $12. total. How to hook up.
http://www.454malibu.com/ford_solenoid.htm

OK, still troubleshooting. But I was just wondering, based on the overheating problem, wouldnt it go away when the car cools down? I went out several hours after shutting the car down, and it still wouldnt fire. I was able to put my hand on the header with it only being slightly over room temperature.

-Bob

Sounds like you may have 2 problems now, new starter going out and the original problem. Constant hot start problems can make the solenoid go bad. If it always started by jumping the starter BAT terminal to the "S" terminal, then the original problem is poor current flow to the "S" terminal. The starter "S" terminal is one of the highest current drawing items in the car except for the starter itself (even if its only for a few seconds) Electricity flows this path to reach the "S" terminal.........

To check the entire starter circuit, electricity flows from the battery to the junction block, to the 4 way splice, to the horn relay, to the bulkhead connector, to IGN switch, to neutral safety switch if automatic or clutch switch if stick shift, to the starter "S" terminal. Check all connections and switches along this path. You may have a bad connection or high resistance in a switch.

To find the problem quickly, you need to do a "voltage drop" test. With the key in the crank position, test the voltage at various places, wherever there is a large drop in voltage, thats where the problem.

Ah this thread is killing me. Get some extra wire and attach it to the S on the starter. Run the wire into the car and hook it to a spare switch or a start button. You don't even have to mount it just use it for testing. Hook the other half of the switch to a battery connection. When it won't start try hitting the switch or button and see if it starts. If it starts the wire to the starter is bad. If it still does it then heat has affected the starter.
I drag race a 10 sec. (all roller big block that you can barely turn over with your hand) with a factory starter and it always cranks. Relays are are just extra stuff not needed under the hood. The car should start like it came from the factory. If it doesn't then something is wrong.

I would replace all wiring. I like the idea of new wiring anyways. This is a bit off topic but I had a starting problem with, my lawn tractor. I take old lawn mowers from my family members that dont run just to mess with them. I took an old 84 Craftsman tractor from a friend of a family member about a year and a half ago and that starting system really gets me red in the face everytime I fiddle with it. I fixed the rear end problem and soon after the battery died. After I replaced the battery it stoped turning over completely. I could jump the solenoid. I replace the unit with a Meyer Plow unit (lol dont ask) and it started. Then the battery died again and I started jump starting it with my dads truck. I think the solenoid lets through alot of energy and my dads truck battery allowed more juice into the starter for a longer period of time because I didnt let off the key because the battery wouldn't die because it was connected to his truck and I burned the starter out. Now power gets to the starter but not through it. Im rambling now but maybe you have a problem again that you already fixed. BTW im planing to rip out all of the wires on the tractor and change the starter, theres only a few so its not hard for me to do. Its in good condition and the blade deck is mint. Im also planning to put in a 20 horse 2 cylinder from my uncles rider to replace the 75 psi original 12 horse now 12 catpower engine. With the 6 speed I should move.:thumbsup:

Like has been said it's a hot soak problem. Do the headers rap around the starter? We used to cut about half the coils out of the sol. spring and on the race cars just leave it out but on a street car I wouldn't take it out. The ford sol is the best fix as it appears your heat shields aren't doing their job.

Thought about this for a long time last night. I have a question. Does the car back fire when you rev it up and let out of the gas when in neutral or while driving? If it does I bet the carb is not jetted correctly (running rich). Either too rich or too lean. Both can cause exhaust temerature to rise very high. If your creating too much heat in the headers then your cooking your starter. I guess it could get so hot that you could be damaging the windings in the solenoid.

It isnt backfiring whatsoever. When it runs, it runs very strong with no anomalies to mention (The temp guage never goes above around 190). I am going to run the wire to the S-post as several members have mentioned. If that doesnt get me anywhere, I have to be suspect of the new starter.

Someone asked if the headers wrap around the starter. They run close, but they do not wrap around it at all. It is very easy to pull the starter out. The only thing in the way are the transmission cooling lines.

I will wire up the post tonight, take it out for a spin, and try to reproduce the problem, and see if my makeshift starter switch works.

Thanks to everyone for being patient in what is probably the busiest time of the year for me.

-Bob

Wow...now I'm curious now too.

OK, I just hooked up a 2 pole switch. I took one pole to the positive terminal of the battery, and put the other pole on the S-post on the starter. I recreated the problem (that was easy enough). When I hit the switch there was nothing. I even hooked my multimeter up to the switch to verify that when I closed the switch I saw 12 volts, which I did. So it seems the solenoid may be bad on my new starter. Anyone disagree at this point that my next move should be to replace the starter.....again?

Thanks,
Bob

I love to hear everyones opinions!! maybe you should replace and do all the upgrades as everyone seems to say, then their wont be no concerns just an empty pocket:D

Bob, that is not elimiating the positive cable from having high resistance! The best way to figure your problem out is to first ck batt power, no lower than 12.4v? next take the you multimeter dc, one jumper to the + pole of the starter and other to the block no lower than 12.1? then try same thing while someone is helping you crank it, should have same nothing less than 9v. Last ck the s terminal with one test lead and the other test lead to the block again, have a helper crank it, if its lower than 9 volts, let me now what ya come up with! just tryin to help!

Just rechecked some of your post and found where you hit the starter and it started. Try this hit the starter while someone is cranking it. I bet it works. Seems to me that the headers are getting too hot and causing the starter to get too hot. This is from the post where you stated that is had a new cam intake and so on. If your not jetted correctly it will cause excessive heat in the headers. I would really like to know how hot your exhaust is running at. The only thing you could try is some synthetic lube in the solenoid to help it engage. Sounds crazy but a little oil can make a big difference. Just ask my trans fluid soaked starter, it loves it. (long story on the trans fluid soaked starter). How about this. Try letting it warm slowly and keep starting it till it does it. Like at 140, then a 150 and so on till it stops working. You said it usually runs no more that 190. Did it always run that hot or was it after you changed the cam and all. It could be that the carb is jetted too low.
I see that even if you installed your relay like the (four letter word) guy would like you to do it would still do the same thing. You just verified that its most like not a wiring problem and adding a relay would not fix your problem.

I think he said he has 12 volts to the solenoid and it's not doing anything.
Seems to me that only leaves a couple of possibilities.
1) 12 volts going to solenoid but no good ground present (bad connection from negative battery post to engine block.)

2) Bad solenoid.

If there was a problem with the positive battery cable, he wouldn't be getting a 12 volt reading under load.
At least the solenoid would be pulling in, even with no positive cable connected at all.

High school science class - heat will break down a magnetic field. A magnetic field is created inside your solenoid to pull back the plunger than in turn engages the flywheel and the contacts on the rear of the solenoid similtaneously. The heat from headers is disrupting the magnetic field. The cure is to insulate the solenoid from the heat. You'll need to fabricate a heat shield from sheetmetal or wrap the headers with insulating tape.

The only thing accomplished with the addition of another relay is to give you another potential problem somewhere down the road. No one has been able to explain to me how this is supposed to help. You still have to create a magnetic field at the starter solenoid and the heat that causes the problem still exists. It doesn't boost battery voltage or create a "cleaner" voltage as some have tried to explain. There's nothing mysterious about electricity, 12 volts is 12 volts, period. The best connection you can have between the battery and the positive post of the solenoid is a straight length of quality battery cable WITHOUT having another set of relay contacts to contend with. The same goes for the ground cable. The starter grounds through the block which should be directly connected to the negative side of the battery via a good quality cable. Now, I would take a good look at the bracket the ground cable is fastened to, which if memory serves, would be the alternator bracket. It could be that the bracket itself is not firmly bolted to the block, which would cause the same problem as having a loose battery cable.

This is the familiar old big block hot soak problem that we've been dealing with for decades. Barring some one of a kind problem that's unique to your car, the heat shield is the most effective solution. You might check with Summit or Jegs to see if someone makes one that's ready to bolt on.

Adding a second relay (solenoid) is really fixing the symptom rather than the problem but it seems to work great for most people.

I *think* the reason it works is because it's not just a heat soak problem alone but a combination of heat and several points of voltage loss due to old bad connections.
Adding the second relay bypasses all those places where the voltage drops are occuring, allowing more voltage to the starter.

I ASSUME when he had 12 volts showing going to the "S" terminal and NO solenoid operation, he was checking it when it was not hot.

So I will try what you say, but the question I have is: If it is the headers getting the starter too hot, why is it sometimes bound up first thing when it is cold? I just went out and tried to fire it up, and got nothing. So I hooked up the jumber cables, and it fired right up.

Before I do anything, I am going to check the voltage drops as suggested.

The headers being too hot because of jetting makes sense. The car was never properly jetted for Denver altitude having come from sea level basically. It is just that this happens sometimes when cold as well, which puzzles me to the heat issue.

-bob

I know you already did this once, but you might want to try another battery and check how stable your mounting is. It's possible you've got a battery with damaged plates.

Don't we all wish we could teleport? This problem would drive me nuts till I figured it out.
Did you try hooking the jumper cable to the starter housing and attach the other end to the battery?

Not only that but someone might give a hand if he had his location in his profile.

The problem is sometimes hard to diagnose because so many different things can cause the same symptom plus if there is more than one problem it can really be tough.

I can't remember when a new starter didn't do the fix fo me but I never run headers cause they're more trouble than they're worth.
I take that back, an intermittent bad relay for the chip in the key thing did fool me one time .

I'm sticking to my first post.

It's either the cables or the battery.

Replace the cables with some 2ga

I had a similar problem with a 74 Cheyenne pickup that I once owned. It gave me fits for weeks. It would engage the starter and turn the engine, but the engine wouldn't turn fast enough to start. It would turn very slowly almost to the point where you get that chattering sound from the solenoid. It did turn out to be a bad ground cable. It looked perfectly fine on the outside and the exposed conductor strands at the connectors gave no indications of any problems. But when I stripped the insulation back a bit further, all I saw was green. The strands underneath the insulation had completely corroded.

What about this? You paint the block where the starter mounts and then also paint the bolt that hold the starter. Now the starter when mounted doesn't have a good ground due to the paint. Every time I have had to reinstall my engine (every 2 years) (sometimes sooner, all roller race engines are hard on parts) I always make a point to not paint where the starter mounts. It makes sure that the starter has a good ground connection to the block.

Oh forgot, I thought of this last night. Take a jumper cable and attach it to the starter housing. Take your volt meter and measure the voltage from the battery ground and POS. terminals. Record the voltages. The voltage on the NEG. terminal should be zero....duh but I want to know what it is when turning the key both when its working and when its not. If you get a volt reading when turning the key on either try it has a bad ground. Now when checking on the POS terminal you should get the same voltage as you do reading both terminals of the battery. If not then you have a bad ground. This should really be interesting to see what the results are.

OK, I will get voltage drops across all the requested points when I get home from work today. I will post all the results as soon as I get them.

-Bob

OK, the story gets better now (right). So a friend of mine stopped by to take a look at the car. He had never seen it. So I figured I would take him for a ride around the neighborhood, then I would start my troubleshooting after he left. So we are driving around the block, when all of a sudden I here what sounds like 2 misfires, and the whole thing went dead. It was as if someone went in and removed the battery. I had no lights, accessories, anything. I checked all the fuses, and everything looks ok. Does anyone know what I should be looking for here? It was a lot of fun having my neighbor tow me and my friend back to the house.

Sorry to take two steps backwards on everyone.

Bob

It almost sounds like you lost your ignition sourse and the engine missfired from the heat remaining. If you lost everything then you have a loose connection someplace im thinking. I havent read all the pages here but if it hasnt been mentioned already, check all your connections and grounds.

Looks like what ever was causing the problem just showed you all its cards.

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking. Whatever this ends up being will end up being my initial problem as well. I will be in the garage all day working on this one. Will let you know.

-B

Sounds like you blew a fusible link. They generally only blow when you have a major short to ground. See pic below for locations

http://www.madelectrical.com/images/chevym1.jpg

If it was a fusible link wouldn't still run off the alternator? Last I checked it should, that's if the alternator is working correctly. I would be looking for some strange ground problem. Maybe the new ground wire has gone bad especially since there was a starting problem and the only way it would start was by giving it more current to get it to turn over. The high current could have stressed out the new ground wire over heating it causing the lead to get hot then creating a cold loose connection.

There is a lot of small gauge wire between the ignition switch and the starter. Even more if you have a console with the neutral safety switch. Changing out all that wire with 12 gauge helps. From my experience, hot start problems are more prevelant in cars with the neutral safety switch in the console floor shift.

If it was a fusible link wouldn't still run off the alternator? Last I checked it should, that's if the alternator is working correctly.
No. Fusible links are there to protect the cars wiring from the battery. It takes a major short to blow a fusible link. If the one by the horn relay blows first, all power is lost to the dash area including the ignition. If the one by the battery blows first, The short will probably still be there, pulling the voltage down so low that the car would stall anyways.

OK, here is what happened. For some reason, whoever originally rewired this car ran the positive battery cable down to the starter as they should. Then, instead of coming straight off the main terminal to feed the rest of the car, they ran it off the starter post (basically same effect, but unnecessary length of wire in a vulnerable spot). So I have the positive cable to feed the rest of the car, coming off the starter then going back up around the battery tray where it joins the rest of the wiring bundle.

So what happened was, that wire melted on the header and shorted, thus removing power to everything. Unfortunately, after fixing the problem, I am still plagued with the starting issue.

So today, I will be moving that wire up to the post as it should be, then I am going to start checking voltage drops.

So I am two steps forward again, but still at square one :(

-Bob

No. Fusible links are there to protect the cars wiring from the battery. It takes a major short to blow a fusible link. If the one by the horn relay blows first, all power is lost to the dash area including the ignition. If the one by the battery blows first, The short will probably still be there, pulling the voltage down so low that the car would stall anyways.


Yep, your right I wasn't thinking straight. He's lucky it didn't catch fire. I had a Nova that the main feed to the starter hit the header pipe when we were working on it and it caught fire and damaged the battery. Nothing you can do but put water on it while someone atempts to pull the battery terminal off. That wire coming from the starter to feed the rest of the car is how my race car is set up. The only difference is I think its a 8 gauge wire that runs back into the car to run everything else.

Im getting ready to get my scrubs on resume troubleshooting. But for laughs, i hit the key when i got home, and it fired right up. This is the first time that it actually didnt fire when hot, and then fired when it cooled down without the need for jumper cables. So I think we had multiple issues, and my rewiring the positive for the rest of the car solved one of them. Before, it wouldn't start hot or cold when it didnt want to. Now we are down to a heat issue. When I reroute that cable straight from the battery post away from those evil headers, my problem may be solved. Cross your fingers. Will let everyone know when I do.

-Bob

I had the same problem. I went through a few starters and the same thing. Finally i switched to one of the mini starters and a heat shield and have never had a problem since. I'm sure it was the heat from the headers.It was quite embarrassing when going to leave a show and the car wouldn't start.

He's lucky it didn't catch fire.
Yes, he is very lucky. People have lost entire cars to fire from electrical shorts and not having any fusible links or fuses in place.

OK, here is what happened. For some reason, whoever originally rewired this car ran the positive battery cable down to the starter as they should. Then, instead of coming straight off the main terminal to feed the rest of the car, they ran it off the starter post (basically same effect, but unnecessary length of wire in a vulnerable spot). So I have the positive cable to feed the rest of the car, coming off the starter then going back up around the battery tray where it joins the rest of the wiring bundle.

Yes, a very unnecessary length of wire. 71's and earlier have a long main feed wire length anyways and that just made it longer, and with it being heated by the exhaust, could have been your problem. As copper wire gets hotter, resistance goes up. 72's and later have the main feed off the starter BAT terminal, but the horn relay was moved to the firewall, to make wire length shorter.

When I reroute that cable straight from the battery post away from those evil headers, my problem may be solved. Cross your fingers. Will let everyone know when I do.

When rewiring, (especially main feed connections) be sure to crimp and solder the connections. Even a small amount of resistance can wreak havoc on your cars wiring. Also be sure to have all the fusible links in place in case of shorts.

When rewiring, (especially main feed connections) be sure to crimp and solder the connections. Even a small amount of resistance can wreak havoc on your cars wiring. Also be sure to have all the fusible links in place in case of shorts.

Very very very true! Most people that don't crimp wires for a living don't crimp them very well. The vibration along with the water and corrosion that can occur will cause more problems in the future. I've always believed in crimp then solder the wire to the connector. It insures a good connection along with some protection from corrosion that gets in between the wires. Plus it will never pull out, (may break) but never pull out. BUTT splicing wires is another no no. Always put them together and solder them followed by some heat shrink.

I knew the fix two seconds into the thread. I did skim through the other posts, but may have missed something, if so I appologize for any redundancy.

Dean was on the right track back on page one, aside from plain old "rectal,cranial inversion" (head in the nether regions) of the previous owner/electrician.

With your system in stock but functioning condition, this is a common problem associated with aging electrical systems. Connections, switches and old wiring gradually develop resistance, then heat adds a lttle bit more, just for good measure. The starter solenoid is actually has a rather sizeable winding as far as relays (electro-magnetic switch) go. With less than optimum voltage, you may hear the click, however, it may be insufficient to maitain a suitable contact between the battery + terminal and starter terminal (inside the solenoid itself). Weak contact from the internal "plate" and the two contacts will arc, therefore introducing more resistance (carbon).

Like said earlier, assure adequate voltage to "s" terminal on the starter solenoid. To do this without changing old parts or rewiring everything, use an additional starter relay that is less demanding in the initiating voltage department, hence Deans Ford starter relay (Standard Ignition SS-584). Myself, I prefer using a Chrysler starter relay (Standard Ignition SR-103), less than 1/2 the size and no plastic to melt or break. This particular number is self grounding so only 3 terminals are present, but most any SR # will work, differences are # of terminals and mounting brackets. Mine is mounted on the firewall right behind the passenger hood hinge. Easily accessible to attach a remote starter switch on (Adj valve lash, compression test, etc....without partner or getting in and out of the car), while barely noticeable. Run a 12g wire direct from your battery junction block (inside fender, completely out of site), take the wire from your ignition start off the starter solenoid and connect it to "I" terminal on the new relay. Finally add a new wire runninr from the relay "S" terminal to the "S" terminal on the starter solenoid. Avoid hot spots (melted wires) and never think about it again.

I have done this on all 4 of my '66, as well as, numerous customer and friends cars. It's hardly a crutch for the symptoms, just a ways to a means, utilizing the original wiring and circuitry, but supplementing for engineering that never accounted for 40 years of service.

Well I guess that cured my problem. I havent had any problem with starting ever since I changed out that wire. I can comfortably drive my car places and shut it off without fear (knock on wood).

I cant begin to thank everyone enough for all the insight that was given to me. I have leaned more about my ignition than I ever imagined. Good luck to everyone with their rides, and hope to see you on the posts in the future.

If anyone is ever in the Denver area, I would love to hook up for some cruising.

Thanks again everyone,

Bob
bborner@gmail.com

I knew the fix two seconds into the thread.
The fix yes, but not the solution. Yes the starter relays do work but are not for everyone. For street/strip, modded cars they are fine. Some like the stock look and don't want a Ford or Chrysler starter relay hanging on the fender or firewall. Just my .02

We'll be in Castle Rock Colorado August 11th-12th for the
ACES Rocky Mountain Chevelle Regional show.
See ya there.

http://chevelles.net/rmcc/showapplication.pdf

hmm, I sure messed that ^up with that link and now there is no edit button so I can't do anything about it. :o

hmm, I sure messed that ^up with that link and now there is no edit button so I can't do anything about it. :o
You are a mod and can't do anything about it??? Link is from you hard drive, not a web address

Yeah No edit button there to click on.
Firefox browser does some strange things sometimes
The link was from my address bar which I copied to clipboard.

{edit}I fired up IE and the button was there with it. :confused:

Hasnt Anyone Ever Heard Of Heat Soak?

The fix yes, but not the solution. Yes the starter relays do work but are not for everyone. For street/strip, modded cars they are fine. Some like the stock look and don't want a Ford or Chrysler starter relay hanging on the fender or firewall. Just my .02

I feel that way also 100%.

Hasnt Anyone Ever Heard Of Heat Soak?

No, what is that?

i had the same problem with mine after i bought it.
it would only start when it felt like it.
my problem was a bad neutral safety switch.
check that out, that may be your problem, if you didnt fix it already.


aaron