Yesterday our shop had a visit from the S-W tech rep. I always like to get him aside and find out all the latest stuff, up and coming, and the dirt on my old fellow employees smile.gif

Anyway, I was really surprised to hear about the latest in preping blend panels. In the collision repair industry this is a non-damaged panel that is adjacent to the panel being painted that you will be blending your color out onto so your color "looks like" the rest of the car. smile.gif "Looks like" because it doesn't really "match", you are simply creating an illusion that it does. smile.gif

Anyway, these blend panels on a late model car are usually a nice bc/cc and you "scuff" the top of that clear to make a nice surface to blend and then clear the whole panel. For years (at least in my neck of the woods) this has been done one of two ways. Either you wet sanded it with 1200 or so, or you used a "scuff gel" and a gray scuff pad (sometimes white). It is a pretty sloppy job with water getting everywhere but produces a super nice job. The scuff gel with gray scuff pad is how I prefer to go. It leaves the blend panel with a nice even "haze" for adheasion and I have NEVER seen a failure using this method (when done properly). It doesn't leave any sanding scratches and it so easy to get down in body lines and the like for a perfect "hazy" finish.

Well, it appears this is not going to be the only kid on the block. Our tech rep tells me he is going to be coming by with a lesson on dry sanding the blend panels.

Now, it only makes sense being dry sanding clear with an orbital sander is an option for cutting and buffing clear. So it is only natural to cut the old clear for blending.

I have to tell you, I don't do ANY cutting and buffing anymore (it isn't my job). I am no expert on the latest and greatest, but when I did cut and buff with an orbital sander DRY, I thought it worked pretty well. I do know of many people using the method with great success.

Preping blend panels comes with the same concerns, cutting thru the clear on the edges and being able to cut EVERYWHERE including down in the body lines. I was amazed at the times I did so with cutting clear that the "innerface" pad (a 1/2" thick foam pad between the paper and the pad on the orbital sander) allowed you to go over body lines without it digging in. It really worked well.

Anyway, he is coming around in a week or so to go over the procedure with the paint dept. I can't wait to see it.

Have any of you guys seen or done this? How about cutting clear for buffing, any of you do this dry?

Martin, funny that your S-W paint rep showed you guys this. When we were spraying S-W up til about 2 yrs now I guess, our S-W showed us this method 3-4 yrs ago. Ive been doing it since.
Gee and I thought us Iowans were still in the stone age :D

Must say its WAY faster easier the great thing about it is you dont spend time blowing and chasing water out the seems.

Its all I use expect a time or two when I use the scuff pad and gel. I use 800 grit on a soft interface pad. Like I mentioned earlier doing it for more then 2 yrs now, yet to see a failure and any problems with the blending edge on that 800 grit.

Also do the cutting the clear prior to buffing with this same setup. The first go around I use 1200 and depending on the surface shape I use that interface pad. If its flat then I use no interface pad. Curved then I use it. Then I move up to 1500 and ALWAYS on the interface pad. Then I starting buffing, I use Megiuars(sp?) products with foam pads. Ive been doing this method for probably a year now.

Depending on the clear and HOW long it has sat Ill go over it with 3M's Trizact 3000 grit WET before buffing. On my fast clear(dc3000) you need to get on it within a few hours of spraying. Buffing the next day is darn near impossible. Ive found that 3000 grit REALLY speeds up ANY buffing process that it somewhat buffs the surface back.
On those pesky clears like DC3000 that dont give up those sand scratches(even 2000 grit) to well that 3000grit is the cure.

Martin I really do believe that using that DA and cutting the clear DRY is a better process. Its faster, removes any dirt easier and when it does NO DIGGING in the paint as it would be WET. It also to me cuts much more level and flat.
And to me that greatest thing about cutting dry is that its pretty much mess free. If you or the other guys in the paint dept are neat freaks like me its the ONLY way to fly.

Also see that 3M is now releashing or soon to be, DRY process for blocking out primer, NO MORE WET SANDING graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/hurray.gif

I really don't see any difference it will make if the panel is scuffed wet or dry as long as the texture is right for adhesion. For years myself along with most of the shops in my area have prepped adjacent panels dry with yikes! a RED scotchbrite pad dry. It scuffs really fast :D . You must apply a coat of midcoat clear before you blend the base coat color but it works just fine. I've even used 400 grit wet smile.gif The midcoat clear (transparent basecoat) lays down just fine offering a smooth surface for the basecoat color to attach to. Try it. If you're using 800, 1000, 1200 or 1500 to prep/scuff then you're wasting time in my opinion, the surface shouldn't need to be any smoother than the repair area that's getting the full paint next to it which most shops finish at 400-600.

WOW :eek:
I was using this technique way back in the early 90s! This was way up in Northern Minnesota...talk about the stone ages.
We mainly used the 1200 & 1500 on the DA prior to buffing, not necessarily for blend panels, but man I'm surprised that this is still something new 10 yrs later!

BUFFING, The 3M trizac stuff and Abrillon, and similar hit this area about 5-6 years ago, I keep some of the 2000 and 3000 in the shop but for best results I still feel the initial cut should be made by hand with a THIN rubber block and 1000 or 1500. The interface pad does nothing for correcting any surface texture problems or denibbing which still needs to be done by hand. Just my opinions here, don't want to ruffle any feathers. A person's own preference for the way things are done should be based on what works best for him.

What sevt_ said.

We only use water to wash our hands, drink, AND fix pesky defects (excessive flow) with the stone. smile.gif

Karl

Ditto in my area.. Been Dry for many many years..The 3M system ..

As for hand sanding ..only on Top End full show finish,, 1200,1500 with trusty DA.. Then a 2000 wet Hand sanding., with waffle backer.B-4 Buffing

if the panter had a bad day (lot's of bolders ) Start with 800 to plow the feild.. graemlins/angry.gif

You guys are WAY behind the times, Maaco been doin it that way for YEARS :D I'll stick with water.Remember this is just my OPINION!!! Mike graemlins/beers.gif

Guys, you missed the point here. I only brought up the dry sanding to buff as a comparison.

How many of you are dry sanding blend panels?

Mike, did you say the same things about foam pads, PSA paper (or velcro for that matter), orbital sanders, polyester putty, laser measuring systems, down draft booths, short wave infrared curing, 1000, 1500, 2000 and up paper (I remember back in '79 when "ultrafine" was released, the first paper finer than 600), urethane primers, etc.

All the above products were met with the same skepticism by many guys.

I rememeber when I was reping when I had intruduced a new clear to a mixing shop who had use the old clear for many years. The owner called me to tell me how thrilled he was with how his painter could lay that clear down and how he had next to zero runs and so forth (I had also given him a clinic on gun set up at the same time). Anyway, a few months later I was up there I told him about a new primer. He got all pissed off and said that he loved the old primer and all I want to do is sell him more products than he needs. I reminded him about the clear (his face got a little red) and said "I come to you with this primer the same way as I did with that clear".

He was humbled to say the least.

It is a good lesson proving the point my father the career salesman has said for many years.

"Your doctor wouldn't learn a thing after leaving college if not for the salesman".

The new products, and procedures brought by the sales rep should be welcomed. smile.gif

Martin, Ive been dry sanding the blend panels since the S-W rep showed us this method sometime ago.

I love having the paint reps stop by bring some new products or toys to play with. About a month ago PPG rep brought over some UV primer. You apply it via spray bomb and cure with a UV light for 2mins, then sand way. WAY COOL graemlins/thumbsup.gif The stuff is clear kinda wierd appling paint over that bondo spot :eek:

Life is hard enough the way it is why not make it easier on yourself.

See how clean your dishes get running a dry scotchpad over em?
Water and soap remove silicones!! Is this rep now gonna sell you a bunch of fish eye eliminator to put in your clear?
I prefer to get most of the dirt off the car before painting, then rub it out later. My .02
Mike

Well, there you go Mike, some discussion on why you wouldn't do. That, if you notice was how I started this thread, just asking about who may be using the procedure.

You will also see a number of posts from others who use it all the time and have been for years with success. So, it does work.

I understand your point, using a scuff gel and water cleans the heck out of the surface. The water would also kill static electricity. But you can't expext it to do ALL the cleaning for you. If your surface is covered with silicone, rubbing it INTO the surface by sanding it with water isn't the trick, silicone isn't water soluable remember. The food on your dishes IS water soluable so the soap and water are ALL you need to clean them. The contaminants on a car are a whole different story. I totally agree with you, really. There are contaminants that ARE water soluable and cleaning with a scuff gel and water can remove them. We are talking about other methods here. Maybe a water borne surface cleaner?

I think, the thing is to get the surface clean with a surface cleaner (aka "wax and grease remover") and THEN sanding it.

You can't pick and choose what to believe from the tech rep. These guys know more than us about the products and there uses, A LOT more. S-W company isn't going to send them out with a plan to screwup all there customers work, does that make any sense? Think about that, "Ok guys, we have this joke of a procedure to go out there and tell our customers. It should really make our products and us look bad, now hit the streets".
They WANT VERY BADLY to come in with a product or procedure to set THEM appart from the other paint companies, not to push the customers away. If we TRULY understand what they are offering, then make a decision to use what they offer or not, that I understand. We can't just follow them blindly. But if we do not want to believe what the representatives of the company who developed and produced what we are using, who are we to believe? It just makes good sense to listen to them.

Have you heard the commercial on the laser jet printers where the people are making lame reasons why they don't have a laser printer in their office? "Lasers in the office, are you kidding, they distroyed a whole planet in Battle StarII with a laser".