Well, again, I wish I heard this 2 months ago :eek: I bought a gallon of PPG's OMNI cortez silver to shoot on my '70 SS, but now a recent post tells me that it is completely worthless junk and should not be applied to anything :(

Should I trash the gallon of OMNI and now go spend whatever on a different line of paint ? :confused: Yes, I plan on keeping this car and expect it to look nice for a long time, but am not expecting perfection. What should I do? I really thought I had researched this here very well and was aware that it is not top of the line paint, but was not told back then that it was total crap that won't last !!

John,

I'm no expert either, but after reading the posts about the PPG Omni, I would not use it either. Hey, look at the bright side, at least you haven't sprayed it yet. I know they won't take it back, maybe you could sell it on Ebay!

Mike

Was looking around on your website and found some interesting pics.

How many coats of base coat did these take you to get coverage?

http://users.ev1.net/~jaaustin/chevelle/teal_sample.jpg

http://users.ev1.net/~jaaustin/chevelle/firewall_cortez.jpg

2 coats base and 2 coats clear and aside from an orange peel issue due to my adjustment being wrong at the compressor (poor atomization), I thought it sprayed well and looks very nice. The firewall actually looks like a mirror for the most part. I would sure hate to shoot the car and have this paint turn to useless faded crap on me. :confused:

I can only speak from my own experiences, so take them for what they are worth. I have shot Omni three times, and all three time it turned out like crap. 1st time was on a rebuilder Cavalier in the dark purple color. The paint had so little pigment in it that it took over a gallon to paint the front clip and it still did not cover. You could see right through it in the sunlight. I ended up stripping it and spraying Nason on it. The second time was my personal 91' S-10. I shot it in bright red and it covered great. But in about a month it started to fade, and then within a year it had completely faded, chalked over and had started to peel off. The last time I was working on my uncles 96 GMC 1500 rebuilder. He bought Omni due to it's price. The color was the Indigo Blue metallic and we had the same problem as with the purple. We bought 6 quarts of paint which should have been plenty to shoot a regular cab pickup, but all we got sprayed was the box. So having said all of that, I would never spend money on this junk again. I would just spend them money and buy something that is worth a darn.

Yes.... real crap IMHO. takes 4000 coats to get coverage and it doesn't lay down well for me. Well worth the cost for their better product. Also, I discovered, well actually was eventually told, that the omni black paints have a strange pigment in them that fish-eyes when sprayed over k36 unless you use a sealer over the k36. I wasn't told this until after I had stripped a motorcycle tank to bare metal, cleaned it, primmed it sanded it sprayed it with the omni and cleared it, 3 times...... graemlins/angry.gif

Mat and Rick, I really appreciate the actual experience you have described here. It's plain scary :eek: The thing that gets me is how PPG can sell paint that is so worthless instead of discontinuing it. :confused: Is it the base color itself or the urethane clear, or both that aren't worth a darn ? Do I have to trash all of this stuff ? I believe what you're saying and guess I need to make other plans as far as paint brand and supplier. :mad:

I have a company nearby that sells Dupont. What is an affordable Dupont line that won't look like hammered sh!t a year from now ? I appreciate the help and I am still very surprised that I am just finding this out now :confused:

If you seal the car with gray sealer, i dont see you having coverage problems with silver. As far as the indigo blue, i have sprayed it in Dupont Chromabase a lot and unless you have the correct undershade(Valueshade as Dupont calls it) it will not cover.This is common with many newer colors by any paint manufacturer(well at least most but thats another debate) I had a repair that i had primed a light gray.Dupont calls for Valueshade 7 on that color,which is almost black. Ok, so i counted 15, yes 15 coats before i got that light gray spot covered.Now imagine doing a complete paint job with a primed quarter, a red fender light gray primer spots all down the sides. You'll dump a ton of paint trying to cover all that and at $60-$80 a quart thats not what you want!You get the idea? Now with the almost black Valueshade sealer,indigo blue covers in two to three coats.My point is use a similar shade undercoat and make the whole car that shade before shooting your color.Dont use the color to hide primer spots,use the selaer for that,just use the color for,well..color! That avoids having to worry about covering a car polka dotted with primer spots and different color body panels. You'll crap yourself when you see how much paint you save.You have to do this with the top shelf lines,i hate to think what its like trying to cover with the thinned out Omni. As far as durability, i cant comment on Omni.We addressed the coverage problem with silver anyway. If you dont want to use it,i suggest shooting the jambs with it.Then use something better on the outer panels. If you go with a gray sealer an an HVLP i could see you painting the outside with two quarts of silver basecoat. So how much is two quarts of the better quality base (maybe get three if you got the cash) and good quality clear going to cost you? Just some food for thought.

I love PP&Gs upper line of paint and clear and that is all I use. The Omni is their low end crap that I hear they sell a lot of to used car fix up places and those 200 dollar repaint and such shops. I really don't know how they sell so much of it, but I guess a lot of folks are so shocked when they get a quote on the price of good stuff (I paid 35 bucks for that pint of black BC) that the cheap stuff has a market (I think that omni stuff was like 18 or something) But if you factor in ease of application, better color coverage, and durability, espec on something you plan to keep, then the higher price is not really all that hard to put up with. Now, having said that, I had nearly 1500 bucks in paint and related materials with my 72. But man, what a finish... and I'm a amateur. My biggest thing is, the pros can probably lay the cheap crap down and make it sweet, I need something more forgiving, and something that is going to make up for my lack of skill. My car has 2 BCs and 3 CCs and I used a little under a gallon of clear if I remember correctly.... I'd have to look it up.

With that tank, my buddy brought it and a quart of omni over for me to help him with it. I put two coats of black BC on and it looked like rattle can sprayed from 3 feet away. I know I put 5 or 6 layers of base on at least. Then I put the first coat of clear on it and it immediately fish-eyed. I figured the surface had something weird on it from the work my buddy had done to it so I let it dry over night and then stripped it to bare metal. After hours of re-prep I started again and actually got to the final clear coat before the fish-eyes popped out. Yep, time to strip it again. right here is where I should have just said screw the omni, but my buddy is a bit financially challenged and I was trying to help him out and I knew he really couldn't justify springing for the extra bucks to buy new paint and clear. So, like a moron I gave it one more shot. Well it all looked good when I first got it finished... next morning I get it out in the sunlight... yep fish-eyes, smaller ones but still there, and you could see the damn primmer in places right through the black... So I drag the thing down to my buddy who is a semi retired body guy... he takes one look at it and says you didn't use the sealer did ya????

I didn't know anything about sealer, my tank owner buddy wasn't told about the fact that PP&Gs omni black reacts with the k36 primer that I use. Now, in the PP&G guys defense, he might not have assumed that I would use the k36, but you would have thought that he would have mentioned it as a potential problem to the tank owner... First I had ever heard of this problem... So out of my pocket I spring for a pint of the good stuff, strip the tank, re-prep, two coats of BC and I used some CC I had in the shop.

The kicker is, the guy puts the tank on his bike, I have 3 days and 35 bucks of my own money in it at this point, and he takes it to the local biker bar to show it off. Well when he comes out, someone has kicked or knocked the bike over resulting in a big dent and scratch in the side of the tank. I imagine, I see another tank for him as soon as his tax money comes back :(

I suppose coverage could be a concern, but more of a concern to me is the general idea that this paint will fade, chaulk and peel within a relatively short period of time. I have no fish-eye in any of my practice shoots, but I am using the Sherwin Williams Ultra Fill II urethane primer/surfacer. The silver seems to cover that well.
I won't take a chance with the OMNI because I simply have too much time invested in chemical stripping of the entire car as well as PPG DP50LF epoxy primer and the Ultra Fill...... Anybody interested in an almost full gallon of PPG OMNI cortez silver basecoat, reducer, urethane clearcoat and hardener :( ? What I have will paint your car..

Texas, am not a fan of OMNI as I have too many experiences using it that have gone bad or just poor results.

Am with 70isfine, some colors are JUST poor at coverage be it OMNI or R-M diamont.

That ultra fill primer you are using is pretty darn close in shade to that silver, so it will help on the OMNI poor coverage problems.

I think if you kept the OMNI basecoat but sprayed a good PPG clear over it you will be fine.

As for the black OMNI basecoat, Deltron the good PPG line also needs to be sealed prior to topcoating on K36, due to the high solvents in that black. Sealing holds back those solvents from touching the k36 primer.

Dont get me wrong Ive stated many times that the Dupont line NASON in my eyes is the best value based line but still Id spring the extra cash for regular PPG or dupont.

Why not do it right the first time and forgot about it???

Texas 70, What Omni clear are you spraying? The Omni line is budget paint for sure but I've never really had any durability problems when I've used it. There is a little more gloss dieback than the premium products but nothing drastic, and nothing that can't be taken care of with a polish buff. Color coverage isn't as good as the premium paints for sure but as mentioned earlier the correct sealer of primer color has a lot to do with that. The clears dry harder- faster so buffing isn't as easy as some other clears but tollerable IMO. I've actually done show winning paint jobs for people with these products. I've never seen any adhesion problems or chalking and cracking like previously mentioned.

The way I look at it is, Omni isn't going to provide the ultimate depth, gloss and duabilty of a good polyurethane, but for some jobs it's OK. To put this in perspective, Omni would have been considered the high end product back in the early to mid eighties had it been available. Look at the graphics picture on my web link- this is Omni on a sled-one year later it's still perfect. The 69 Camaro has Global D893. The Vette has Global 8101

This is no sales pitch for PPG, but the Omni line is OK in my opinion. I'll be using Global on my Chevelle though----it's going to have to be perfect smile.gif

i Just thought i would throw in my experiences, i used PPG Omni on my circle track car and thought the paint was the best stuff i have ever shot, i sprayed it on some old crappy primer that was hardly even scuffed, i sprayed a really dark purple over grey primer and it covered in 2 coats, out of one gallon of paint i had enough to paint the whole car 2 times. once before i raced it and once before i am racing it this season. I even used cheap clear and it was an awesome looking car. car can be seen at this link http://www.dirtdrivers.com/directory/viewdriver.asp?did=600

Really.... I didn't use a sealer over the k36 on the better quality paint.... my guy didn't suggest it so I didn't do it.... guess I just lucked out with it working with the better quality stuff because it didn't fish-eye and came out great.... thanks for telling me that.... should we use a sealer on all dark colors or just the black?

Originally posted by sevt_chevelle:
Texas, am not a fan of OMNI as I have too many experiences using it that have gone bad or just poor results.

Am with 70isfine, some colors are JUST poor at coverage be it OMNI or R-M diamont.

That ultra fill primer you are using is pretty darn close in shade to that silver, so it will help on the OMNI poor coverage problems.

I think if you kept the OMNI basecoat but sprayed a good PPG clear over it you will be fine.

As for the black OMNI basecoat, Deltron the good PPG line also needs to be sealed prior to topcoating on K36, due to the high solvents in that black. Sealing holds back those solvents from touching the k36 primer.

Dont get me wrong Ive stated many times that the Dupont line NASON in my eyes is the best value based line but still Id spring the extra cash for regular PPG or dupont.

Why not do it right the first time and forgot about it???

Rick, thanks for pointing that out

should we use a sealer on all dark colors or just the black? Just black. You need to seal K36 and k38 JUST when appling BLACK. The reason for that is because of the high solvent content in PPG's black DBC. If you look on the label of DBC black 9700 it clearly states mix in the ratio of 1:1/2

If you DONT seal and mix black in full strength you run a REAL GOOD chance of the basecoat soaking into that primer. Then when you come back and clear it all that solvent is NOW escaping or trying to escape thro that clear causing solvent pop.
Boy is that cool looking when that happens graemlins/thumbsup.gif

If you are luckly enough for it NOT to pop then it will kill the clear in a few days.
Guy I work with is buidling a 01 Ford F150 painted black. Both doors are full of mud, primed blocked and painted in one day. He's too stupid and ingornat to KNOW the products and I didnt tell him that you need to seal it smile.gif Anyway its been about 4 days since he painted the doors and the gloss on that clear is half dead because of all that extra solvent applied over k36 got soaked in then later caused dieback or loss of gloss

http://www.chevelles.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=009777

John,

Posted the link because that is the post that set you off. Right?

I posted a reply to that link.

You made a wise decision to actually practice with those paints. That is a Test that everyone should actually try to see what they think for the results. It also allows some practice time with your equipment and choosen products to dial them in.

Most people are in a big hurry and don't take the time to practice. Most people are in a big hurry and don't read the product sheets. Then they are in a REAL BIG hurry to correct mistakes that could have been reduced or eliminated if they had not jumped right on their Project.

Finally they jump on the product afterwords and proclaim it is JUNK.

Originally posted by sevt_chevelle:
Rick, thanks for pointing that out


[QUOTE]Boy is that cool looking when that happens graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I wouldn't exactly call it cool looking :eek:

thanks again, that is one of the great things about this site. I learn something useful here every week.

I'm feeling better now about the OMNI now that you guys have chimed in (Bob, Eric, Rick, 1970SS427 & D71).

Bob, I'm not sure exactly what clear I'm using, but it is an OMNI urethane. I can post the # later.

Eric, I'm glad to hear from you on this and I will plan on getting a better grade of clear. Any suggestions ?? BTW, I got my 16" long board for block sanding from autobody.com yesterday :D

1970SS427, thanks for the post and you have a cool car graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Yes Rick, thanks. I will not be shooting black and did not use the K36 or K38 so that will not be an issue in my case.

D71, Yes that was the post that really surprised me :( I'm assuming some of the bad experiences that were posted there were because of that reason, bad prep and being in a hurry. As you can see, I have practiced quite a bit and I feel I could apply this BC/CC just fine as long as the product is worth spraying.


I will be spraying the OMNI basecoat and an upgraded clear over that and if it turns to crap, I will let everybody know at that time. Thanks again.

my daily driver Honda was painted at maaco for $300 with cheap enamel... 300 for materials and labor!!!! i did the prep with rattle can primer over bondo where needed and wet sanded the whole car.. came out really nice and holding out great after close to 3 years..especially considering i was 15 going on 16 when i did the work.. for a daily driver or beater cheap paint os ok in my opinion.. but on a car you plan to keep for a long time definitely spend extra for the good stuff.. in the end it will be worth it..

Texas, One thing I do and do well is read the tech sheets on EACH product before I spray and I do take my time. So I know my bad experiences with OMNI are not due to lack of user knowledge or bad prep.
I say what I say about OMNI because of poor experiences time after time. Yes Ill admit there are products in the PPG line that I wouldnt use because I believe that they are junk, same with every other paint line Ive sprayed.

Anyway Ill get to my point, you will be fine if you keep the OMNI base just spray a GOOD PPG clear over it like 2021, 2042, 2055 even 2082.
The OMNI clears that I used were basically water, had clearity problems and turned yellow after a few months and some even weeks. Buffed like a bastard, plus I think they have POOR durability.

I would apply more then just 2 coats of base even if it was PPG Id still apply more then 2 coats. Ive never sprayed OMNI in silver but going from other colors that Ive sprayed I would think nothing less then 5 or 6 would cover. But then again Ive NEVER sprayed OMNI in silver and plus that primer you are using is pretty darn close to that silver in VALUE.
Value(lightness or darkness) is one of three parts in color theroy. Each color has a specific value, so if you apply a color over something of the same value then it will take less effort to hide or cover.

Once again Id stick with the OMNI base as you already have it and just upgrade to a good regular PPG clear.

John, I would at the very least pick up a couple of spray out cards from the paint store. These are a thick paper 6x10" or so card that has black and white sections, many times in a checkered flag pattern. Buy a pint of DBU or DBC in the same color. Then spray your OMNI on a card and the DBU/DBC on another card. See how many coats it takes to cover them. You may find that the DBU/DBC is much better at hiding as well as ease of application because of less mottling of metallics. Or you may find that with this particular color there is no difference.

If it covers well and you are happy with the way it sprays out, COMPARED to the DBC/DBU then use it. It WILL NOT fail at any faster rate than the highend if it is well taken care of. Without an advanced weather test, who knows which one would last longer.

If you see a noticeable difference and the high end is much better, scrap it, it just isn't worth the money you will loose.

John,

It seems you have the OMNI MBC covering to your satisfaction. It also seems as if you have the substrate in a solid matching color to aid in the coverage. You have followed the advice that is often given for applying the OMNI MBC from people that use that product. smile.gif

The OMNI MBC is often the prime target for people disliking OMNI as an entire product line. With your intended plan will be using the MBC product that most if not all complaints sling snot about for poor covering quality.

The OMNI products such as MC161 CLEAR is one which several people have used and rated as a quality - budget clear that will last. An extra 3rd coat of MC161 is recommended for sanding and buffing because if you cut any clear to thin it won't last. The OMNI EPOXY PRIMER MP170 is also a noted value - I use it VS DPxxLF. Personally kind of like the New OMNI MP282 High Build/Surfacer Primer.

Did you know that MAACO uses Martin Senour aka relabeled S&W on their High End jobs. Have seen their Quality Jobs fail in less then a year and come off in Sheets. Let's just for the sake of relation to those failures refer to Martin Senour as JUNK. Maaco is often in the public headlights for product failures. MAACO should use a better quality paint instead of that JUNK S&W relabeled Martin Senour Brand. Again it is related to failures and people often talk about Maaco jobs failing so Martin Senour relabeled S&W must be JUNK. See how it works? graemlins/waving.gif

If you upgrade paint stay away from the JUNK Martin Senour brand because Maaco has problems with it and it has earned them a bad name. smile.gif The Martin Senour Brand has a Good Troubleshooting guide online for a reason and even include pictures for their own paint problems.

http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/reference/troubleshooting_guide/sw_tsg.pdf

Don't tell no one but you can have problems like that with any of the products on the Market. The reason the MS came off in sheets was probably due to Maaco not prepping the substrate surface properly. Of course it could just be Higher End JUNK Paint being used for their Quality Jobs too. Which ever way you want to view it. That is why I've never tried Martin Senour. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Again as previously stated do what you think you can afford to do. It is your project and if you can afford it then by all means scrap the OMNI and spend more money on the upper end products from PPG.

Ever watch that show called MYTH BUSTERS? Seems you have busted one MYTH. MBC 2 coats with complete hiding to your satisfaction. I would suggest 3 just for added assurance and the spray out cards are a good recommendation.

Straight from the Martin Senour Troubleshooting Guide:

"TRANSPARENCY
(Poor Hiding, Poor Coverage, Translucent)
The original finish or undercoat is visible through the topcoat.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
CAUSE_____________________________________________ ________
(A) Color not thoroughly stirred/agitated.
(B) Color over-thinned/reduced.
(C) Substrate not uniform in color.
(D) Wrong color undercoat used.
(E) Insufficient number of color coats applied.
REPAIR _________________________________________
(1) Apply additional coats of color until hiding is achieved.
(2) Or, sand and apply similar colored undercoat/ground coat and refinish.
PREVENTION________________________________________ ______
(A) Stir or shake paint material thoroughly, making sure all pigment is in solution/suspension.
(B) Thin/reduce according to product label directions.
(C) Use a sealer or ground coat to provide a uniform color before topcoating.
(D) Use an undercoat that is similar in color to the topcoat.
(E) Spray until hiding is achieved."

Straight from PPG Trouble Shooting Guide:

"Description
Underlying surfaces visible through the paint film, most frequently in hard to spray areas, on lower panels or on sharp edges and contours.

Cause
Inadequate thickness or poor covering power of the colour coat. This is frequently due to:

a) Poor spraying technique.

b) Inadequate lighting, insufficient or cramped working space, inaccessibility of surfaces.

c) Poor mixing of materials.

d) Reduced thickness of the colour coat due to excessive compounding and polishing.

Prevention
a) Use the correct spraying technique, ensure even and adequate film thickness.

b) Work under good lighting conditions in a properly sized spray booth, pay special attention to inaccessible areas.

c) Ensure that the materials are thoroughly mixed.

d) Avoid excessive compounding and polishing.
Take special care on edges and sharp contours.


Rectification
Flat the affected area and repaint."
http://www.ppg.com/cr-refinish/phase1/frmShowDefect.asp?LanguageId=4&IntDialCode=44&ProcessStage=0&ShowPicture=0&DefectId=96

Several people have tried OMNI Products and liked them on their "beat up rusted out wheelbarrows":

http://www.paintucation.com/rich.htm

http://www.hotrodsandhemis.com/paint/Cab.html

The examples I used to post were 4-5 years old for application and still holding up well before being sold. One was a Harley and the other was a 51 Studebaker Truck for "beat up rusted out wheelbarrows."

Put a smile on MartinSr aka Brian's face and use the Upper End Maaco Brand paint errr mean Martin Senour Paint. BTW am just a hobbyist so listen to the Professionals. graemlins/beers.gif

I certainly don't want you to use OMNI. Use the Upper End PPG to insure that if you have any failures then have done everything you could to prevent them. The upper end products are more worthy but the lower end is more worthy then credited too. Do you want Prime Rib or Sirloin? Do you want Champange or Beer? Last I checked Prime Rib and Sirloin were both filling and both Champange or Beer would get you drunk. Their is always going to be a cost factor and a difference. Again get the Prime Rib and Champange and get rid of the pain and fears.

Life is to short and Rich Gadberry is gone or you could get his advice for the link above concerning his "beat up and rusted out wheel barrow." His OMNI paint job & work outlasted him. Does his work resemble a "beat up and rusted out wheel barrow?" :(

Lastly something for you to read and decide as to what is intended for a defensive posture about Cross Fire. Why was there any interest in defending Cross Fire which is a Martin Senour Brand? You read it and decide.

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB73&Number=590774&Forum=UBB73&Words=Cross%20fire&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=590275&Sea rch=true#Post590774 (http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB73&Number=590774&Forum=UBB73&Words=Cross%20fire&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=590275&Search=true#Post590774)

D71, I have a nasty streak that shows up now and then that causes me to rub some folks wrong, but methinks you make me look like Mr. Personality. Now I understand why Len invited you to not visit his site anymore.

Just chill, dude. We can each have our personal opinion without getting overly sarcastic at those who disagree with us.

D71, I hope you mean Martin Senior the paint company and not MartinSr the guy, who led me by the hand through my 72 project as well as the replacement of the roof on my 70.. If you mean the later... them there is fighten words! ;)

Vettefellow, me thinks you put that well and me thinks you and I share a common problem... including me rubbing you the wrong way... should we use the word rubbing, when talking about something we do to other guys???

Prof, you have a point. Lemme try to come up with another word in place of rub. Naaa, you understood what I meant...as long as some of these other hairy legged dudes don't get the wrong idea.... smile.gif

Originally posted by baddbob71:
Texas 70, What Omni clear are you spraying? The Omni line is budget paint for sure but I've never really had any durability problems when I've used it. There is a little more gloss dieback than the premium products but nothing drastic, and nothing that can't be taken care of with a polish buff. Color coverage isn't as good as the premium paints for sure but as mentioned earlier the correct sealer of primer color has a lot to do with that. The clears dry harder- faster so buffing isn't as easy as some other clears but tollerable IMO. I've actually done show winning paint jobs for people with these products. I've never seen any adhesion problems or chalking and cracking like previously mentioned.

The way I look at it is, Omni isn't going to provide the ultimate depth, gloss and duabilty of a good polyurethane, but for some jobs it's OK. To put this in perspective, Omni would have been considered the high end product back in the early to mid eighties had it been available. Look at the graphics picture on my web link- this is Omni on a sled-one year later it's still perfect. The 69 Camaro has Global D893. The Vette has Global 8101

This is no sales pitch for PPG, but the Omni line is OK in my opinion. I'll be using Global on my Chevelle though----it's going to have to be perfect smile.gif Sorry this took so long, but I am using the OMNI AU MC161 high solids urethane clear. Do you suggest I get a higher quality clear from PPG and shoot that instead ? Might that make a difference ? If so, which one ? I would really like to be able to use the basecoat I already have. Like I said before, I am painting the car myself to save money, the car is going to be a weekend racer and cruiser and not for car shows necessarily. If I were expecting show quality, I would spend $10,000 and have the pro's do it.
I do not expect perfection. If this finish does fade, chalk or peel, can't I wet sand or do whatever is needed to prep the surface and shoot over it with something better later ? Or, would I have to strip the entire car down to metal again :(
Thanks to all of you for the info and advice graemlins/thumbsup.gif

UPDATE:
quote from sevt_chevelle
Texas, One thing I do and do well is read the tech sheets on EACH product before I spray and I do take my time. So I know my bad experiences with OMNI are not due to lack of user knowledge or bad prep.
I say what I say about OMNI because of poor experiences time after time. Yes Ill admit there are products in the PPG line that I wouldnt use because I believe that they are junk, same with every other paint line Ive sprayed.

Anyway Ill get to my point, you will be fine if you keep the OMNI base just spray a GOOD PPG clear over it like 2021, 2042, 2055 even 2082.
The OMNI clears that I used were basically water, had clearity problems and turned yellow after a few months and some even weeks. Buffed like a bastard, plus I think they have POOR durability.

I would apply more then just 2 coats of base even if it was PPG Id still apply more then 2 coats. Ive never sprayed OMNI in silver but going from other colors that Ive sprayed I would think nothing less then 5 or 6 would cover. But then again Ive NEVER sprayed OMNI in silver and plus that primer you are using is pretty darn close to that silver in VALUE.
Value(lightness or darkness) is one of three parts in color theroy. Each color has a specific value, so if you apply a color over something of the same value then it will take less effort to hide or cover.

Once again Id stick with the OMNI base as you already have it and just upgrade to a good regular PPG clear.

Sorry sevt_chevelle, I jumped the gun without reading all of the latest posts. I definitely did not mean to include you in the "poor prep" statement earlier. On the contrary, you and Martinsr have proven to me over the months that
you both really know this stuff and would not question your abilities. ;) You had obviously answered my question clearly before I posted the follow up question. Thank you for the good news and I will follow your advice to a "T".
Thank you.... again graemlins/waving.gif and sorry for the confusion

quote from Martinsr:
John, I would at the very least pick up a couple of spray out cards from the paint store. These are a thick paper 6x10" or so card that has black and white sections, many times in a checkered flag pattern. Buy a pint of DBU or DBC in the same color. Then spray your OMNI on a card and the DBU/DBC on another card. See how many coats it takes to cover them. You may find that the DBU/DBC is much better at hiding as well as ease of application because of less mottling of metallics. Or you may find that with this particular color there is no difference.

If it covers well and you are happy with the way it sprays out, COMPARED to the DBC/DBU then use it. It WILL NOT fail at any faster rate than the highend if it is well taken care of. Without an advanced weather test, who knows which one would last longer.

If you see a noticeable difference and the high end is much better, scrap it, it just isn't worth the money you will loose.

Great advice as always Brian. I WILL do this.If I decide that the MBC is covering well enough, can I then mix the remainder of the DBU or DBC into my OMNI and make use of it ?

Thank you

D71, what the hell is your problem??

Am sure people rant and rave about OMNI if all they've ever shot is sh!tty arse synetic enamel!!

Ive sprayed tons of implement paint for guys in my area that restore old tractors cus they think thats the only way to go, cus that tractor came from the factory with THAT paint.
Just comparing that pure junk to OMNI, OMNI wins HANDS DOWN. See "HOW IT WORKS" if Ive just painted nothing but implement paint before then was handed some OMNI, I too would think it was GOD LIKE!!!
Ive used the OMNI basecoats, clears, primers, and sigle stage urethane and I still wont spray it on MY WHEELBARROW cus its pure friggin JUNK. And to be frank I could care less if some cheap arse with a 51 stude painted his truck with OMNI graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/hurray.gif for him.

Big deal you find TWO people that like OMNI. Bet ya I could find MORE that DONT like OMNI and wouldnt spray the rust that fell off the wheelbarrow with OMNI.

Sorry but when you've in and around the business for 15yrs spraying paint almost every friggin day, you tend to learn whats good and whats NOT. Ive sprayed PPG, Dupont, that JUNK S-W :rolleyes: , sikkens and valspar and each of its VALUE base line, so I think I have a pretty good clue on what works and dont.

I guess if some guy can paint a harley with OMNI and have it look good on the NET I should go out the shop and throw out all that high dollar crap PPG paint I have and invest in some OMNI. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Cause what the hell do I know, am just some punk in Iowa who paints for living and doesnt have a project pic posted on the NET

What the hell does listing paint problems on the tech section of the MS website have to do with paint quality?? GEE could it be to help you figure what happened if you do have a problem, instead of waiting around for a paint rep??
Last time I checked PPG had a similar setup on their site does that make PPG a JUNK product???

You ever take a PPG painting certitfication class?? If you have like ME then you would know that the first damn day is nothing but paint problems and the correct fixes for those problems. Plus they give you a CD-rom of nothing but pics of paint problems and the fixes so you can review the material if that problem comes up on the job. So just because PPG spends ALL that time discussing problems and then gives you a CD containing more info, that makes them a SH!T company???
Must be if we use your comparsion like you did with Macco and MS.

But please do share more of your KNOWLEDGE am all ears and love a good lesson :rolleyes:

Ah, D-71 I just thought I would clear something up being you are looking facts to archive in on your hard drive to use in other forums.

Sherwin Williams in the parent company, Martin Senour is a "LABEL" within the Sherwin Williams company. It is a LABEL that was "given" to NAPA auto parts (Aka Genuine Parts Company) in 1936 as an exclusive label to be distibuted by the 7000 some odd NAPA stores in America, Guam, Philippines, and China (though I beleve the China opperations has ceased). MARTIN SENOUR is NOT a company, it is simply a "label" of Sherwin Williams.

Just thought I would clear that up, I would hate for you to be giving information out your butt and not the fact based info you usually give.

Holy crap Dee, you can really dig like Columbo. smile.gif I know sometimes I post fast and maybe what I said wasn't clear. I'm sorry for that let me illaborate on what I said over that at the other forum. You said in your previous post "Why was there any interest in defending Cross Fire which is a Martin Senour Brand? You read it and decide"
I don't want anyone here to miss what I said so I copied and pasted it here to help you out.

From the Chevytalk site posted by Martin senour in response to someone saying Cross/FIRE "sucks".

"I only shot it a few times and had a wonderful time doing it. I assume there is going to be transparent colors as in any system and this IS the cheap stuff like OMNI and NASON, I have heard they are both very transparent. But before you beat up the product, could it have been mixed incorrectly in the store? Sure it could have".

"I only shot it a few times and had a wonderful time doing it" I think it is clear that I have little experiance with the product, but THOSE few times were great. I hope this wasn't too miss leading.


"I assume there is going to be transparent colors as in any system and this IS the cheap stuff like OMNI and NASON, I have heard they are both very transparent."
I admit there are transparent colors in all brands which is true, right Dee? Then I say in caps (maybe I should have made them BOLD ) that Cross/FIRE IS (oh wait, I didn't say "Cross/FIRE", even though that is the subject the thread was on I shouldn't have assumed that when I said "this" you would have understood I meant "Cross/FIRE" I am sorry for that) I digress, that Cross/FIRE IS the cheap stuff like OMNI and NASON. Ok, so I compare the great (so you think I think) Cross/FIRE with the junk (so you think I think) OMNI. Now, that doesn't seem right does it. If I am so hypocritical as you say I am I can't imagine I would say such a thing. Hmmmmm then I say that I have heard OMNI and NASON are transparent as well. Well, in my travels all over the state of California seeing thousnands and thousands of jobs and talking to hundreds of painters, that is what I saw and heard. Now, I hope you are not saying I am lieing, that wouldn't be nice.
"But before you beat up the product, could it have been mixed incorrectly in the store?"
That does happen Dee, really. I have seen it a number of times, one being a Martin Senour paint at a NAPA store where some guy mixed it wrong adding twice the amount of mixing clear.
"Sure it could have"
That line makes no sense what so ever, maybe that is what thru you?

Now, I am not going to go search the ChevyTalk forums looking for the thread where I talk about how why I don't recommend Cross/FIRE anymore, at least not a blanket statment. You must have forgotten to get that one to share with us. I could go there and make a link to here where I explainn (but I have a life, so I will quickly explain) why I once made a big deal about Cross/FIRE but learned from talking to my old fellow employees at S-W (that is Sherwin Williams you Dee being you are probably not familiar being you have never worked for them as a paint rep) that Cross/FIRE wasn't as great as I thought. I stopped preaching it then and there. Not that it was such a bad product but I just didn't feel comfortable advising someone on something that I wasn't totally positive about using REAL facts not having painted a few things in my garage.

I hope this clears everything up.

MARTIN SENOUR is NOT a company, it is simply a "label" of Sherwin Williams.

Just thought I would clear that up, I would hate for you to be giving information out your butt and not the fact based info you usually give.Think I covered it:

MAACO uses Martin Senour aka relabeled S&W To the rest have to :D

Originally posted by D71:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />MARTIN SENOUR is NOT a company, it is simply a "label" of Sherwin Williams.

Just thought I would clear that up, I would hate for you to be giving information out your butt and not the fact based info you usually give.Think I covered it:

MAACO uses Martin Senour aka relabeled S&W To the rest have to :D </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry Dee, you were clear on that point. I was dodging punches throughout your whole post so I must have gotten dizzy.

quote from sevt_chevelle:
Ive used the OMNI basecoats, clears, primers, and sigle stage urethane and I still wont spray it on MY WHEELBARROW cus its pure friggin JUNK.

another quote from sevt_chevelle:
Anyway Ill get to my point, you will be fine if you keep the OMNI base just spray a GOOD PPG clear over it like 2021, 2042, 2055 even 2082.

Eric, I assume this contradiction is based on the fact that I will upgrade to a better PPG clear and that I am shooting silver over the SW Ultra Fill Primer and should get acceptable coverage ? Just wondering :confused:

quote from Martinsr:
If it covers well (MBC) and you are happy with the way it sprays out, COMPARED to the DBC/DBU then use it. It WILL NOT fail at any faster rate than the highend if it is well taken care of. Without an advanced weather test, who knows which one would last longer.

If you see a noticeable difference and the high end is much better, scrap it, it just isn't worth the money you will loose.

Brian, if I decide that the MBC is covering well enough, can I then mix the remainder of the pint of DBU or DBC into my OMNI and make use of it ?

Texas, I have different beefs about OMNI on each product. My beef on the basecoat is coverage and its a tad less user friendly.
Other then that OMNI basecoat is a ok product. Like mentioned before just upgrade to a higher end clearcoat.

Dont mix the OMNI in with DBC or DBU, dont mix DBU with DBC, they are totally different technologies, who knows the wierd reactions that would follow.

I wouldnt even spray out that OMNI basecoat for cover coats then come back and spray PPG basecoat over that.

If you decide to scrap OMNI base then THROW it out. Dont even try combining it with another basecoat system its asking for trouble.

But like mentioned before that OMNI base will be FINE under some PPG clear, Ive done it several times. Just DONT combine OMNI base with PPG base.

John, as Eric said DO NOT MIX ANYTHING. What I would suggest is to tell the guy at the paint store what you are doing. Tell him that if the DBC/DBU works that much better for you than you will be buying a gallon. Ask if you can have that pint at a discount for your test. He could even mix you a half pint (if he wanted to) and maybe even pour off some reducer from an open gallon in back that I would bet he has. smile.gif I know most guys would like to see the test them selves so he may be more than happy to help you out with it.
I know I sure would like to hear. Silvers can sometimes be hard covering, if OMNI is as good, than that would be good to know. I would like to see you paint a scrap fender or something with it. Got to a body shop in town and get a Honda fender or something out of the scrap bin. Seal the whole thing with primer that you have on your car. Put a few black stickers or something on the fender at a coverage test. Spray half the fender in the OMNI, let it dry good then unmask the other half and cover the OMNI, then spray the DBC/DBU on that side. Then unmask and clear the whole thing with what ever clear you plan on using. Make sure you know how many coats it took each one for complete coverage. That is the only true way you can do a fair test. You just can't say that it does or doesn't work because you had a problem or didn't have a problem once.
Unless you have a BLIND test you really know nothing, including me. Of course that one line will now be copied and posted on some site the next time I explain my mantra "the highend paints will by the odds provide you a better product". I have never said that OMNI was junk, quite the contrary, I found it to be a formidable opponent when I was selling paint. As a value line goes, it is a very good one.

OK,
I'm a backyard car restorer with some training in paint.
I work at a vehicle manufacturer painting vehicles...
Miles and miles of Imron.

Anyway,
I'm a tightwad and have used Omni with mixed results.

Sprayed a '72 Camaro in Cranberry red.
Single stage Omni Urethane.

Paint came out OK, was orange peeled more than I thought it should be, but color sanded and buffed out GREAT.
Lacquer appearance.

Painted my beater truck with Omni base clear.
Gray 90 chevy.
basecoat laid down nice. Metallic spread good,etc.
very happy with the base coat.

The clear was a PITA.
it was orange peeled, dry in spots, etc.. I thinned it about 10% and it still seemed too thick.
I was using a conventional gun...
I laid it on WET and it still came out horrible.
Let it dry a day, wet sanded, and bought another couple of qts.
Thinned it a little more, and still same problems. Not as bad but still pretty poor quality.

Later learned that the conventional gun and hi-solids don't work well together.

Dad wants to try it on his Chevelle, but I'm talking him into some DuPont, as I've always had good luck with it.

I think OMNI willworkOK using the proper equip.
Also you get used to what you use and obviously familiarity makes success more likely.

I have explained this before that without a good test or seeing LOTS of examples in the field (this is what I base my OMNI comments on) you just can't say. You can say with all honesty, that YOU have had wonderful experiances. And that is maddening when YOU KNOW that the product works well yet others also have hands on experiance who say it sucks. I sold Martin Senour everyday, how many times do you think I heard on my first "cold call" in a body shop that Martin Senour SUCKS? I used it everyday for 15 years, I had seen tens of thousands of gallons shot, I had and seen many cars win awards with it, I had seen many shops thrilled with it's color matches as well as performance. Yet, here was this guy telling me it sucked. Well, his few experiances were bad, now he has the opinion that it sucks. Well, the same can happen if his few experiances were good.

If you can't get out and drive 40,000 miles a year to hundreds of shops to see first hand what something will do, you BETTER do a comparative test. I said "blind" test in the last post, that is actually wrong, it is a "comparative" test. You could make it "blind" by having someone else pour your paint into the gun. That way when you shot it you wouldn't know what you were shooting and make a real honest find on what was better.

I have done this often. I wanted to find out what the best weld thru primer was. Well, at least the easist to use, how well it protected was another issue that would take much more through tests. But I had some problems with a weld thru primer. I just couldn't use it without serious welding difficulties. So, instead of saying it was crap or that particular brand was crap. What I did was go out and buy about five different brands of weld thru primer. It wasn't cheap, one can (Autotech) was $16.00! I cut a number of pieces of sheet metal from one sheet so the metal would all be the same. You need to make EVERYTHING out side of the product you are testing to be the same. Otherwise you know NOTHING. So, I sprayed all the different primers on the different pieces of metal. I then welded them, one after another until all pieces were done. THIS told me something. Using all the different primers on different cars "May" have told me something, but not like THIS test. I found out that the primer I was selling (S-W) was the worse, I NEVER asked anyone to buy it again. The best was Autotech (go figure, the most expensive remember the "ODDS" thing?) but the SEM was a good middle ground and that is what I used for quite a while. That test cost me about 35 or 40 dollars, but it was well worth it.

If I was spraying ONE car as you are, I would want to know ahead of time how the products worked and if I could do something or use something to provide me with a better or easier job. There is nothing controversial about that.

Oh, yeah and to agree with Dee once more (I agree with most everthing he says, I don't know why it has to get personal) the USE of the product is a LOT more important then the label that is on the can.

During my weldthru primer test this was evident. I found the outcome was related to application nearly as much as the product used. If even the best one was applied too much and not allowed to dry good it would give nearly the same poor results. However, if all were applied properly and allowed to dry well there was a distinctive difference between them.

Again, "all things equal" except the product is needed.

I actually did a few tests,once with the primer just applied but dry to the touch, and then again with them fully dried. Fully dry makes a big difference. I thought I would mention that.

MartinSr,

"MartinSr quote: I have never said that OMNI was junk, quite the contrary" MartinSr quote: Some "value line" products like NASON and OMNI are junk. Some "value line" products are great."As for your recommendation go back and read page 2 of this post.

READ What is posted and John's followup:

To someone reading it OMNI and Nason are junk. Second sentence some Value Lines products are great. Which ones are great for Value Lines if OMNI and NASON are JUNK? Don't you see the problem? Need, I quote more for what you wrote? Why do you think John made this post for his concerns if it was not for you calling OMNI JUNK?

Don't you get it?

*******

I could care less what paint John uses because it is his project. If you read back through I am not pushing the OMNI but am stating it is better then what some have already stated. John has already proved it is covering to his satisfaction with 2 coats.

One other thing a Local jobber makes a Custom OMNI Silver MBC mix that out sells HOK Shimrin locally for use under HOK urethane candy. Why would anyone want to use the CUSTOM OMNI mix when it cost more then the HOK Shimrin? Simple because they have tried both. Duh yeap!

Later

P.S. Don't act like you guys aren't trying to get personal. I wasn't throwing punches because these are just words and my free time.

Oh my God! You are equating "Some "value line" products like NASON and OMNI are junk. Some "value line" products are great." as me calling ALL OMNI junk, are you serious?

If I you want to pick that ONE sentence out of the PAGES of text that I have typed to try to make you understand, I am sorry you misunderstood what I meant. "SOME value line products" MEANT "some products WITHIN the OMNI line are junk" If you can say that you are under the belief that EVERY SINGLTHING with the OMNI name on the label is great, well you just couldn't say that, period. It would be ludicrous.
Now, let's just say it is true, EVERY SINGLE product with the OMNI name on the label on it is great, that doesn't change the fact that I also mentioned NASON and the word "SOME" when refering to "Value line" products LIKE OMNI and NASON. Those other "value line" products would INCLUDE Cross/FIRE. JUST because I didn't say the word, it is included in the LIKE (value line) phrase.
Others here have called OMNI JUNK, I didn't,what the living hell are you picking on me for? :confused: Do you think I was the one who stole you Stingray Schwinn when you were in sixth grade or something?

My God, I can say that "some Martin Senour products are junk some are great" As well as "Some posts on this forum are junk while others are great" Does that mean I am saying Martin Senour and all posts are junk?

I love Buicks, but I can say that some Buicks are junk and some are great. Does that mean I am saying "Buicks are junk"? Please Dee, quit while you are behind. My Lord man, I am not kidding, you have some good things to say about painting, SAY THEM. Say what you want to say about your experiances with what every product you choose to help answer questions and leave the philosophy and semantics to some other forum.

MartinSr,

Did your RECENT JUNK OMNI post make John think All Omni Products are sheeet or not? Go read the friggin reply on page 2 of this post topic!

You are the person running around talking about OMNI as JUNK. You RECENTLY WROTE and POSTED IT.

Like it or not some people value your opinion. I've even learned several things from you. Now when you blanket state products like OMNI for bad mouthing then you have condemned the whole line of products. Witness John and his worries because you certainly didn't address what is good or bad from OMNI or Nason.

P.S. You can lay off the snippets or they are coming back to you in 10 fold.

"Please Dee, quit while you are behind." "Do you think I was the one who stole you Stingray Schwinn when you were in sixth grade or something? "Since John has ALREADY spent his money on some often recommended or not recommended OMNI Products is it Personal to him?

I really hate to get involved in this crap BUT, when I first came to this forum I mentioned that a brand of paint was crap and was informed that I was just to used to spraying ONE brand of paint and questioned my painting skills hmmmm...That a GOOD painter can use anything.I sprayed the Omni basecoat followed by a different brand of clear.That was over a year ago and no problems YET. Mike

D71, let me state something that even YOU cant take out of context. You are a MORON!! No need to run around from site to site taking peoples words and twisting them out of context just so they can fit into that narrow minded little head of yours.

This WAS a good topic til you stepped in and started running that mouth of yours.

Quite evident that you simply enjoy stirring the pot every place you go be it chevytalk or the autobodystore. All it does is make you look like an idiot graemlins/sad.gif

Ive yet to read one bit of useful information from one of your posts in this topic. But yet you continue to spout off, and for what just so you can distort words in a sentence :confused:

John just a bit of info on that DBU bascoat since you mentioned it before. Unlike OMNI and DBC, DBU has a potlife. Potlife is basically shelflife, after that potlife has expired DBU is NO longer any good. The reducer for DBU is an active reducer it catalyzes it. So if you do get DBU DONT add the reducer to any paint you dont intend to spray within that potlife time.
I believe that time frame is 8hrs, but am sure D71 will be hanging on my words and post a link to correct me smile.gif
Plus DBC has a much cleaner look to it...Eric

Sad to see this post get so personal. We all have better things to do than put each other down. Maybe I just have good luck, or maybe I have flashbacks of products I fought with 20 years ago, but I think most of the Omni products are Ok. I did have some lifting problems with the SV clear when I tried it on a budget S-10 Blazer repaint a year ago, never used it again. The older Omni clears have proven excellent. The MP282 primer is an unbelievable fill primer that sands like a dream, testing has shown no shrinkage problems period, and I would recomend it to everybody.

what's up with this D71 guy anyway? Real nice guy there... :confused:

Gee, Texas asked for our input/opinion on a product. It would seem that most of us have had mixed or poor results with it. Did D71 formulate the OMNI product or something? Someone would think we insulted this moron's wife or something...

Edited

[ 02-19-2004, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Hot66ss ]

edited

[ 02-19-2004, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Hot66ss ]

D71, now that you insulted almost everyone on this forum why don't you take your toys and go home.Also take your opinions and advice because they are not welcome here.I never got the impression that Eric owned a shop. If you were registered at this site for more than six months you may have read many posts he made about his employer and his position. Everyone you insulted has contributed to this this site for years and for you to come in here and run your mouth and expect anyone to respect your advice or opinion is pathetic. No wonder you have been told to hit the road everywhere else. Your attitude and insults would get you a blanket party at any shop i've ever been.

LATER

:D

WOW :eek: D71 seems to have a real chip on his shoulder. It's a shame this post had to go downhill like that. I've been gone all afternoon and evening and came back to find this verbal assault. :(

Brian and Eric, I'm sorry you guys had to hear all that crap. D71, from now on please stay out of any of my posts or we won't be playing :D
You have personally attacked the guys who are helping me with my project which, to me, means you have attacked me :mad: Since you find it so easy to verbally attack these guys, how 'bout attacking me, or call me stupid, or dork ? No, I'm not in my early 20's and no I don't have a slim build. I am 43, 6'-4" and 240 pounds. Believe me when I say you do not want to attack me or my friends. Nuff said about that !
I'm trying to learn from these experienced guys and I DO value their opinions and recommendations. I will apply what I learn from them to my project and you know why ???? Because they have proven to me and many others that they DO know alot about this topic and are willing to share their knowledge free of charge and I thank them for that graemlins/waving.gif Alright....I'm OK now ;)

Man this is really getting personal and I can understand why. Eric and Brian have just now spent 3 days of their valuable time defending themselves to this looser. D71- You will not win this argument at all. These two guys have a rock hard reputation here and on other sites as well. The time these guys spend helping others with their knowledge is priceless. I have friends that own body shops in my home town and have rebuilt 3 previous vehicles in the past with their help. Eric and Brian have posted more helpful info on this site than I have learned on my last 3 projects. Sorry for chiming in here (as I dont post that often, I am a quiet guy that likes to gather information and store it in my head) I just couldn't let this go on and not say anything. These 2 guys could have been reading other posts and helping people with their projects instead of defending theirselves to some one that has a problem. Thank you to Eric and Brian for their knowledge and time that they put in here. If you dont agree with someone here just state your opinion and let others choose what they want to believe, as this is the home of the FREE.

Jamie Clayton
67ss

we should all just spray paint all of our velles primer red or primer gray and call them trailer queens! We all know how Rustoleum holds up so theres really no arguement!

graemlins/beers.gif

keep the rustoleum for the trailer, not the queen

I'm just glad Dee didn't dig up some of my posts from over at the beastiality forums I frequent. Now THAT would be embarrassing. :D

I really don't get it. He and I have had a problem since the first post over on another site. I know I can be a little crass, talking before I think. But usually I can clear it up with a heartfelt appology. In his case I even sent a personal email telling him how my mom had just passed away and that I was typinig this out of line post to him right at the very minute of my birth only a week after her passing. It was a seriously honest appology. I thought he could understand I am human and we can disagree.

It is like I have said to a number of people over the years on these forums. First, this is just a garage we all BS in. If I were to say something out of line in my garage while we were BSing, it would all be straightened out in seconds and that would be the end of it. There would be no fight, no throwing anyone out. It would just be solved, and that is it. It is no big deal, I have REAL things to worry about. I have little children, a wife I love, bill to pay, hell there was two women beat to death out in the street about 200 yards from my home a couple of weeks ago!! There are REAL things to worry about.

I could give a rats butt about any of these products, I don't sit across the Thanksgiving dinner table from them!

If you will notice, I don't hardly ever mention brand labels. I talk about technologies, they are consistant from brand to brand. EVERY SINGLE issue that comes up could happen with every single brand. Every single thing that comes up can be solved, with nearly the same answer.

That is something that I have said over and over in my discussion with Dee, he is largely right. Following the manufactures recommendations is more important name on the label. If you were to use this OMNI, as it is recommended, it WILL provide a good outcome. There may be better outcomes with other products, but that doesn't mean that the OMNI is "bad". I have never said anything different. Well, I guess if you went thru every single word I have ever posted you could find some line I have writen that would contradict what I just said. But that is NOT the spirit of what I say.


I told him a long time ago, both our opinions can live side by side. Neither trumps the other.

This thread was looking like a polictical thread over in bench racing. I thought it was going to be the first every locked up by the administrator in the body and paint forum. smile.gif

Don't sweat it Brian smile.gif

Many of us here are lurkers trying to learn a few things, and you've been one of the most helpful people I've read on this board-one of a select few I might add. I thank you for putting up with that abrasive 'fellow'. Sounds like he has a few issues.

Does the "D" stand for D!CK??? :eek:

Sorry mods, I HAD to do that=he's earned it.

Also-what's your opinion on using BASF Glasurit paint, purely out of curiosity. My old car used that, and I loved it smile.gif

D71, I have just one piece of advice for you. And that would be to just leave this forum all together. I have been here since 1998 and have been reading posts from both Brian and Eric for years. I have never once got the impression that Eric owned his own shop. I have followed his postings religiously since he always seems willing to help out someone who is having problems with a project. And I really don't care how old the guys is, if he has more experience in something, I am going to listen to him. I started hanging around my dads shop when I was about 2 years old, and painted my first car at the age of 11 (with help of course). So get off his back and pack up your crap and move to another board. graemlins/waving.gif

Originally posted by Sid Coleman:
Many of us here are lurkers trying to learn a few things, That is something not everyone understands. I visit a few forums where they have counters on the amounts of "hit" the thread has had, or your own post. They will sometimes in the multi hundreds of hits while the post may only have a few responses! Many, Many people read them that are not posting.

Almost every single time I post I am talking to all those people who may be "lurking" as well as to the guy who asked the question. OR, I will clairify something someone else has said or challenge them on what they said. Sometimes it isn't a big deal and I hate to say "your wrong" to someone giving an opinion but I want it clear to EVERYONE that this may not be a way to go. Or at the very least, I am telling everyone by my challenge to get more information, it isn't as simple as it sounds.

Because of this sometimes I sound too "challenging" or at the very least too often. Well, I have to admit, I am one to challenge just because I want to often as well. So, sorry, you may not know when I am doing it if it is for the lurkers or I am just being cocky. But, who cares, lets talk it out, it is nothing personal for goodness sakes.

Hey MartinSr, I have never found you to be crass and you have been more than helpful with both of my projects. A couple of times I got the impression that my stupidity was getting on your nerves but I never thought you were rude or condescending. Same goes for Eric.

This D71 guy has a real issue with someone or something... maybe his old lady wears the pants in the family, he has a sort pee pee and he's a 90 pound weakling so all the girls at school beat him up when he was a kid; the only place he gets to act tough is on the Internet where no one can reach out, grab him, and give him the butt kicking he so desperately needs. We have no need for that crap here.

Go away little man and let the big boys get back to work. :D

Originally posted by Professor_SS:
Hey MartinSr, I have never found you to be crass and you have been more than helpful with both of my projects. A couple of times I got the impression that my stupidity was getting on your nerves but I never thought you were rude or condescending. Same goes for Eric.

This D71 guy has a real issue with someone or something... maybe his old lady wears the pants in the family, he has a sort pee pee and he's a 90 pound weakling so all the girls at school beat him up when he was a kid; the only place he gets to act tough is on the Internet where no one can reach out, grab him, and give him the butt kicking he so desperately needs. We have no need for that crap here.

Go away little man and let the big boys get back to work. :D Thank you Professor. That was very well said graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Ran into a problem similar to this on a bike forum,guy was askin about clear, and their paint guru said to always mix the clear and reducer then add hardner? Any system I have used says clear,hardner then reducer.I questioned him about it and he preceded to tell me about every show car and bike and how many trophies he has won.
Now I might be a little crass at times BUT as Brian said just trying to get the correct info out there to ALL who might be reading. My last post was "WOW very impressive, makes me sound like a HACK" and left it at that!!
Guess I'm trying to say life is to short to please everyone, I quit trying long ago. Mike

Mike, that's funnnneee! Y'all would be in trouble if you were trying to use a clear that didn't need a reducer! smile.gif i.e. Dupont ChromaClear 7500S, V7500S and the new replacement 7900S.

Anyway, IMO, you add the hardner, then the reducer only on even number days and then do the reducer, then the hardner on odd number days. If it isn't done exactly like that, the paint will slide right off the car if you do an emergency braking maneuver above 50 MPH. Honest! smile.gif That's the way I've always done it and I've never had the paint slide off when putting on the brakes really hard at any speed. That tells me it's the correct way to mix the clear. Oh! One more thing...you have to use thoroughly washed 100% cotton baby diapers as strainers otherwise you'll get a crappy paint job.

Additional paint mixing and application lessons can be obtained by crediting my personal pay pal account. Thank Yew and Good Evening. smile.gif

I wonder how much time that schmuck wasted in front of his computer scouring over Eric's previous posts to write that little diatribe.

My pops spends enough time on here as it is, but thanks to that moron, my dad had to waste time replying to D71's little pot shots, when he could have been calling his SON! graemlins/sad.gif

Hey dad, maybe you can help me out with the right kind of primer that I should be spraying under my broken heart ! :D

Ya Vette, just wanted to make sure guys out there when they read 2 to 1 + 10% were adding the hardner first and not 10% hardner ya know!! Why would ya mix the thickest and thinnest first anyways? I always use the wife's old pantyhose for strainers,makes the paint smell funny though!!!
Jeeze Brian that was a kick in the pants from the kid huh!!! :eek: Mike

Hey guys, MARTINJR there IS my oldest son. He is working on adding a '65 Buick Gran Sport to his sig smile.gif Good to see you Joe.

I hate to disagree with you guys but I was told by the tech dept at S-W to mix in the reducer before the hardener. That is, if it is writen so in the ratio. If that is what the mixing ratio says 4:2:1 for instance. The reducer is the 2. That is one reason, you mix it in order just to reduce (if you'll pardon the pun) confusion. If it was 4:1:10% well of course then you add the solvent last. In this ratio, the reducer has ALREADY been included in the clear, JUST as it should be. The reducer added to the clear is likely a low voc acetone, oxall (sp?) cocktail and the 10% a urethane reducer to make it more "palatable". smile.gif Secondly, if you reduce it first, the visocosity being lower allows the hardener to mix easier. These days of ultra high solids hardeners it is even more important.

I was told there could even be a "shock" and premature linking. This may sound far fetched, but I figure, it is one of those things that is "free" and it might as well be done as I learned, to avoid trouble.

OK, now that I've struggled through all that BS, I want to comment on the original post.

I've painted my car twice with Omni. Both times it looked good when I was finished. Both times I knew that it wasn't a "forever" paint job.

When I got some severe gouges and feathered 'em out, then touched it up, it looked horrible. The transparency became blatantly obvious.

Both times, I had to buff and wax the paint regularly to get rid of the cracking and chalking.

This is with a single stage urethane.

When I do the body-work properly, I'll use a higher quality of paint. Of course, that's gonna be a BC/CC job at the very least. Sometime in the not-too-distant future, if all goes well.

BTW, I did like the Omni gray urethane primer. It seemed to do it's job perfectly.

Originally posted by cjlandry:
OK, now that I've struggled through all that BS, I want to comment on the original post.
Ain't it the truth (including MY bs) glad to get back on track.

Yes, please keep it on topic. thanks

You guys are discussing clears that require adding a reducer and then the hardener. The OMNI MC 161 clear I have used up to this point is only a 2 part system. Urethane and hardener mixed 2:1.
When I upgrade to a better quality PPG clear, which I plan to do, will that be a 3 part system containing urethane, reducer and hardener ?

John, go back and read my response to the clear mixing issue. Your 2:1 clear simply has all solvents needed in it already, or the hardener has it. There are two reasons for the lack of adding reducer. One is marketing, it is easier for people to use, thus a selling point. There have been products over the years that this was done for that reason. Some of them very notible, like IMRON.
Then there is the VOC issue, these days a lot of these products have the VOC exempt solvent it it to make them VOC legal and hard to screw with. If they have you add a solvent, people will add more or the wrong one putting the product over on VOC. It could also be a formulation that could be sensitive to to incorrect solvents or mixing and the proformance of the product could be effected if it is mixed EXACTLY as they want it.

Because it had no solvent added to it isn't a bad thing is my point.

Thanks Brian, I went back and looked at some tech bulletins for a few of the clears recommended by Eric and see that they are a 3k system requiring a reducer as well as a hardener. Have either of you used the PPG "Concept" 2002 high solids polyurethane clear ?

Click here to see the "Basics of Basics" to paint technologies (http://www.camaros.net/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002645)
I have never used that clear. But I wanted to clear up something. Read the "Basics" on paint technologies at the link above. Because the clear may use three componants doesn't make it a "3K". In fact, there is no such thing. ANYTHING with a hardener is a "2K" and that is it. It doesn't matter if reducer is added, flex additive, or what ever. It is still just a 2K.

Texas, Ive NEVER used that 2002 clear. The big clears in my area are 2021 and dc3000. DC3000 and 2082 are clears that I DONT recommend for a complete paint job as they are TOO fast and you wont be able to keep a wet edge.

Dc3000 is the fastest PPG clear right now with a recoat time of 4 mins and bascially all I can do is a front and door maybe two doors if I really bust it.

2042 on light colors has a rep of yellowing out. Last summer we painted the new shop truck late 90's s10 painted white. Used 2042 and within a few months it was a nice shade of yellow. Know of a few other shops that have experienced this with 2042 on whites.


2055 is MY personal favorite PPG clear, but a very tricky little sucker to spray. Pretty much all clears you spray you spray it how you want it to look. Well on this one you DONT. If you look on the tech sheet it even mentions this, it says to back of the fluid. If you spray this clear the way you intend it to look you will be sanding out runs. Ive been there MANY TIMES smile.gif

Either 2021, 2042 and 2055 will make great clears.
Any reason why you select that 2002 clear? Not saying its a bad choice or bad clear, just I know NOTHING about that 2002 clear.
I guess Id ask around and see what your local PPG shops are spraying.

Texas, I did a demo on that clear a while back,was fairly easy to spray and was a one coat clear as I believe some high solids clears are.Didn't do much rubbing with it, maybe a couple dirt nibs but seemed to rub ok.It was kinda thick for me but the rep said I could thin it about 10% after the hardner was added of course!! Been my experience the high solids clears are a little harder to spray and rub. Some clears are made to be sprayed in a booth and baked,others are better suited to air dry,say spraying in a garage with not much air movement.Some of these clears will set up twice as fast in a good booth with lots of airflow than in a garage with a fan out the door. My .02 Mike

Ok lets see if I can write this without causing any rants or finger pointing.

I also have purchased some Omni products but havn't started yet,


Is the only real problem coverage?....I shot a test panel ...mp170 epoxy/mbc acrylic basecpoat/mc261 clear... the color was black and it seemed to cover well to me I see no signs of primer or light coverage on only two coats. My only problem was bad orange peel, I am not shure if it's me (newbie painter) or my cheap ass gun, I tried and tried again making adjustments to the gun using "basic's of atomization" and was able to reduce the effect of orange peel but it is still there, and not even close to being good enugh to be srayed on a car. (I plan on buying a 1.4mm sharpe colbalt....is this a dependable gun?).

Other than the orange peel it looks ok to me, I plan on painting the car blue, Is it possible I might have problems with a different color than black (primer is grey).
If I can work out the orange peel with the new gun I would be happy with how things worked out, but is this stuff going to last? I dont want to have to re-paint 2 years down the road when I could be buying a set of heads instead of paying for paint I should have already used?


A decent reply without anyone wanting to come through the computer screen to slap me or someone else would be great!!!!!!!!!

Jeff, it was mentioned earlier (by Eric I think) that the problem you may run into with the OMNI black is "fisheye", but that may have been related to primer. I'll let him clear that up for you. ;)

Eric, I asked about the 2002 clear because I saw it listed in the tech bulletins at PPG, but you had not mentioned it. I was just curious if it was also an option.

I think many folks are learning a lot about PPG basecoats and clears and how to apply them from this post alone. I know I am. Thank you guys graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Jeff, the gun AS WELL AS your air supply can make all the difference in the world on your atomization. The Cobolt is a pretty good gun for the money. However, if you search the Sharpe website you will find the Platinum available "refurbished" for only about $175.00. That is my favorite gun for home hobbiest (as well as myself) it is a highly atomizing gun. It also only needs 7.5 CFM, the lowest of any HVLP. The lower CFM means it doesn't need as much compressor as other guns.

On the coverage of a particular color, you bet that can make a HUGE difference. That is what we have been saying, even the high end products will have one color that covers like a dream and then another that is like a candy color. So if you have tested in black, the blue could be a killer. And, if you don't use some somesort of standard to compare how it covers you know knowthing. If you spray it over a completly gray primed part, that isn't going to tell you much. It may look like it covered well because the substrate was all one color. If you were to put a coverage test sticker that is a black and white checkerboard on that primer, THAT will tell you how good the paint covers.

Originally posted by MARTINSR:
However, if you search the Sharpe website you will find the Platinum available "refurbished" for only about $175.00. Brian, did you mean "Titanium" ? What model are you talking about specifically ? I saw one model listed at 7.5 cfm, but it was a "Titanium" pressure feed (cup on bottom)......
http://www.sharpe1.com/shp-sw.htm

NEVERMIND.....I found the Platinum redface.gif sorry bout that.

I'd like to buy one so I at least know I am using the right tool. The price is right also. Thanks ;)

Like the Dodge Omni the name implies.. (lol)
PPG's OMNI paint is the "Wal-mart" of paints.

Pay more get alot better. I deal with paints on a daily basis as I am into body-repair / paint.

To me the Omni series is like a bottom line product aimed and marketed strictly for price.

Would work great on a winter beater, keep it off your summer car.