Hi.
I'm rebulding sbc 350 and i need to install new rods and pistons. They are stock with press-fit pins. What is the best way to do it without a risk to broke something ??? Yeah, i understand, that the best way is to go to the machine shop, BUT - no chance here, in Russia :) I have some skills in engine rebuilding, but not related to the engines, made in USA... Also i haven't any expensive tools - just wrenches, torch and so on :)
Any ideas ?
Thanks.

The best way is to heat the end of the rod. Here we usually use a custom made electric heater that has a jig setup so that you can quickly insert the pin to the correct depth before the pin takes on the heat from the rod and is difficult to move.

It is a bit tricky and some experience is helpful.

You can probably fabricate an electric heater for the rod end and also fabricate a jig that will allow you to quickly slip the pin in to the correct distance.

Sandy is correct, heating the rod small end works best.

You do need to be sure and setup a jig though to properly locate the pins.

When you heat the rod, you must get it to temp, have the piston with pin inserted into one side.

You will place the rod in position, being sure the piston is settup to face correctly on the rod. The rod has a beveled side on the big end that MUST be towards the radius of the rod journal and NOT facing the other rod.
The rod bearing tang grooves should be towards the pan rail on an assembled Chevy V8. Piston arrow or notch towards the front of the engine block also.

Once you place the rod in the piston, you have to press the pin quickly into the rod and other side of the piston. Wear gloves and be QUICK :)
Then once it is in, squirt oil on the pin so that it will be drawn into the pin bores of the piston.

When you setup your jig, take into account that the rod will be slightly offset to one side of the piston when you drive the pin in, when you center the rod after it is all together, you want the pin centered too.
So basically you will push the pin in slightly too far, the rod will also be pushed against the "far" side of the piston from your hand as you push, and then after it sets for about a second the press fit will take effect.

Squirt your oil, and center it up, double check your assembly, check for any binding, and set it aside in a clean area.

Good luck.

WOW! Hot rodding in Russia, that has got to be a challenge!

The previous posts are correct, devise some sort of jig to locate the proper pin location/depth, heat the small end of the rod and install very quickly. Make sure that you have everything figured out in advance, because if the pin is not correctly positioned, it is almost impossible to remove it without damaging the piston.

In addition to heating up the small end of the rod to a cherry red level you should also put the wrist pins in your freezer over night. This causes them to contract. Heating the small end of the rod causes the hole to expand. The greatest temperature differential is desirable.

You can do this operation in a free hand manner but it is a tense moment while you try to get the wrist pin centered in the piston at the same time you try to get the rod to the center of the wrist pin before the whole assembly becomes immobilized.

I have done this operation several times freehand. Its a tense moment but I haven't failed yet.

FWIW I use my oxy acetylene torch for a heat source. It works very quickly.

Good Luck :)

Thanks a lot, guys... It was really easy to install pins :) About one minute for heating rod with oxy acetylene torch and pin comes in very easy :)
So the engine is assembled, today i'll install it in the car and will fire it up ;)

In addition to heating up the small end of the rod to a cherry red level you should also put the wrist pins in your freezer over night. This causes them to contract. Heating the small end of the rod causes the hole to expand. The greatest temperature differential is desirable.

You can do this operation in a free hand manner but it is a tense moment while you try to get the wrist pin centered in the piston at the same time you try to get the rod to the center of the wrist pin before the whole assembly becomes immobilized.

I have done this operation several times freehand. Its a tense moment but I haven't failed yet.

FWIW I use my oxy acetylene torch for a heat source. It works very quickly.

Good Luck :)
=

You absolutely do not want to heat the rod to a " cherry red"
A little brown to lightly blue is about as hot as you want them.
If you have not done this before get some temp sticks which are a crayon the melts at a certain temp & use it as a guide
You want about 600 degrees not 1500 degrees, this is a sure way to destroy a rod.
This is a bit tricky so it would be nice if you could get ahold of some old stock rods & pistons, press them apart & practice on them before starting on yours ;)
Doesn't make any difference what kind, just something to get a "feel" for what you are doing here. :thumbsup:

I used to spend a considerable amount of time at an engine builder back in Minnesota when I lived there. They had some custom built electric pots that were about 4 inches square and had an heating element in the bottom. They would stick the small end of the rod into those heaters and they wouldn't take them out untin they were cherry to nearly yellow (as in VERY hot). Those guys are still in business and still use the same style pots to heat the rods. By now they have built engines numbering in 5 figures all with the rods getting the same treatment.


I had a D/MP Chevelle w/ a 283 back in the 70's the rods in which were assembled to the 12 1/2 compression forged pistons in exactly the same way. That engine saw some 10000RPM missed power shifts on several occasions and was properly shifted at 7500 RPM Hunderds of times. There is NO one who can tell me that the method I outlined won't work.

I have tons of empirical evidence that it will do NO harm to your connecting rod. Of course if you are using aluminum rods then this method is NOT for you.

Using an Arbor Press to press in the pins is fine as long as you have all the correct fittings and really know what you are doing. However over time I have seen a lot of good pistons ruined bu guys that didn't know what they were doing.

Whatever, do what you want Wolfplace everyone has his pet method. I am sure you have had a bad experience with heat. I have not. :)

char,
Nobody is saying not to heat the rods, just not as hot as you are saying. I have seen them come loose and they are always blue, like they were overheated. I use a Sunnen rod heater which is very similar to the setup you describe, but the rods never get any color in them other than a very occasional light brown tint. Try this test ..... take an old rod and measure the small end bore with a bore gauge. Then heat it up to a cherry red like you said, put a pin in it and let it cool down. Now press the pin out and measure the rod again. Let us know the results. I read somewhere that a rod can loose half of its press fit by getting it too hot.

I used to spend a considerable amount of time at an engine builder back in Minnesota when I lived there. They had some custom built electric pots that were about 4 inches square and had an heating element in the bottom. They would stick the small end of the rod into those heaters and they wouldn't take them out untin they were cherry to nearly yellow (as in VERY hot). Those guys are still in business and still use the same style pots to heat the rods. By now they have built engines numbering in 5 figures all with the rods getting the same treatment.


I had a D/MP Chevelle w/ a 283 back in the 70's the rods in which were assembled to the 12 1/2 compression forged pistons in exactly the same way. That engine saw some 10000RPM missed power shifts on several occasions and was properly shifted at 7500 RPM Hunderds of times. There is NO one who can tell me that the method I outlined won't work.

I have tons of empirical evidence that it will do NO harm to your connecting rod. Of course if you are using aluminum rods then this method is NOT for you.

Using an Arbor Press to press in the pins is fine as long as you have all the correct fittings and really know what you are doing. However over time I have seen a lot of good pistons ruined bu guys that didn't know what they were doing.

Whatever, do what you want Wolfplace everyone has his pet method. I am sure you have had a bad experience with heat. I have not. :)
=
Fist off if you had a small block you were in fact spinning to 7500 what was it doing with pressed pin rods??
Even GM didn't use pressed pins in their 302's which were a fairly high RPM deal & this was from the factory.

Secondly, what do aluminum rods have to do with a press fit scenario

I am not here to argue with you. You "hung out at a shop that did something that if you are correct goes completely against the recommendations of every association, every production engine rebuilder, every private engine rebuilder & every trade school since the 60's that I know of
I have been doing this stuff for about 40 years & I have actually done a few engines in this time.

If you do not believe what I as well as Bill is telling you how about checking with say Sunnen that makes the rod heaters, AERA that is pretty well respected in this venue & has a few guidelines regarding how hot to get a rod, any reliable source to find out about what happens when you get over a certain temperature with different metals
I can tell you that it is absolutely not acceptable to get the rod to a cherry red condition regardless of what you may think you saw people doing.
If you turn a rod red to yellow & stick a pin in it, it will not return to the correct size when is cools
This does not come from hanging out at some shop, it comes from the people that make the heaters as well as the people who make the rods, from well respected trade associations & from personal experience.

As Bill stated, I never said not to heat the rod as this is in my opinion the only acceptable way to install "pressed" pins & I use basically the same heater as Bill does.
A press is used to remove the pistons

What I did say & I stand by is you do not get the rod "cherry red", This is too hot, completely unnecessary & is destructive to the rod.
Again do a little investigation from any of the above mentioned sources.:(

ok wolfplace..perhaps I mistated "cherry red" ok. Semantics. They were damn hot. They glowed. I call it cherry red you call it something else. whatever.

With respect to my 283 I had a set of 327 rods resized and balanced to use in my .030 283. They had considerably more beef to them than the 283 rods did. I raced the bejeezus out of that motor. I powershifted that rig countless times. and missed shifts at 7500 RPM more than once. Lord knows how fast I spun that motor when I missed a shift. I had VERY good valve springs. I never once broke that motor from start to finish. When they closed Minnesota Dragways AND Twin City Speedway in 1978 I gave up on dragracing. I sold the motor to some circle trackers and they took it and had some small success with it. Pressed pins? Man! Are you an elitist! Some of us youngsters back then didn't have the bread for full floaters. Golly I'm sorry no one at that time told me not to spin my motors all the way to 7500 RPM. I just naturally assumed that if I had the right stuff then I could do it.
Z28? 302? Bring it on bud. My little car was quicker than a stock Z28 by a large margin.


Those rods were heated to what I would refer to as "Cherry Red" and assembled on my pistons while I stood there and watched. Say what you will they withstood considerable abuse at my hands for three years before I sold the car.

The guys that assembled those rods/pistons are called Wagamon Bros. They have a monsterous engine rebuilding facility in North Minneapolis. They are still in business today. I personally did business with them from the early 60's to 1986. Over the years I got to know Wally and Perry Wagamon quite well. Since they were a bit older than I I have no idea if they are still alive but googling Wagamon Bros surely brings up their web site.

If you go look it says "Family owned and operated since 1957". Just for grins why don't you give them a call and tell them that they shouldn't heat rod ends "cherry Red". I am sure that they will have an answer for you since I imagine they have done several hundred thousand rods in the last 59 years.

FWIW the heating elements in those pots glow "cherry red" and the rods are set right on the elements ( well not right on. The elements are recessed in channels.) after a suitable time the rods glow the same way.


Finally I almost NEVER give advice on this forum unless I have considerable empirical evidence in my memory bank. I am not always 100% correct but I am normally pretty close. The "Cherry Red" thing is something I have also done with my own equipment. Once again without a failure.

One of the things I do on this forum is try to give guys methods or advice to solve their own problems reasonably and cheaply. I try to give practical advice for the real world. Thats how I learned what I know. By doing it. I'm not reading all this crap out of a book. I know what works and what doesn't cause i've done it and in most cases many , many times.

ok wolfplace..perhaps I mistated "cherry red" ok. Semantics. They were damn hot. They glowed. I call it cherry red you call it something else. whatever.

With respect to my 283 I had a set of 327 rods resized and balanced to use in my .030 283. They had considerably more beef to them than the 283 rods did. I raced the bejeezus out of that motor. I powershifted that rig countless times. and missed shifts at 7500 RPM more than once. Lord knows how fast I spun that motor when I missed a shift. I had VERY good valve springs. I never once broke that motor from start to finish. When they closed Minnesota Dragways AND Twin City Speedway in 1978 I gave up on dragracing. I sold the motor to some circle trackers and they took it and had some small success with it. Pressed pins? Man! Are you an elitist! Some of us youngsters back then didn't have the bread for full floaters. Golly I'm sorry no one at that time told me not to spin my motors all the way to 7500 RPM. I just naturally assumed that if I had the right stuff then I could do it.
Z28? 302? Bring it on bud. My little car was quicker than a stock Z28 by a large margin.


Those rods were heated to what I would refer to as "Cherry Red" and assembled on my pistons while I stood there and watched. Say what you will they withstood considerable abuse at my hands for three years before I sold the car.

The guys that assembled those rods/pistons are called Wagamon Bros. They have a monsterous engine rebuilding facility in North Minneapolis. They are still in business today. I personally did business with them from the early 60's to 1986. Over the years I got to know Wally and Perry Wagamon quite well. Since they were a bit older than I I have no idea if they are still alive but googling Wagamon Bros surely brings up their web site.

If you go look it says "Family owned and operated since 1957". Just for grins why don't you give them a call and tell them that they shouldn't heat rod ends "cherry Red". I am sure that they will have an answer for you since I imagine they have done several hundred thousand rods in the last 59 years.

FWIW the heating elements in those pots glow "cherry red" and the rods are set right on the elements ( well not right on. The elements are recessed in channels.) after a suitable time the rods glow the same way.


Finally I almost NEVER give advice on this forum unless I have considerable empirical evidence in my memory bank. I am not always 100% correct but I am normally pretty close. The "Cherry Red" thing is something I have also done with my own equipment. Once again without a failure.

One of the things I do on this forum is try to give guys methods or advice to solve their own problems reasonably and cheaply. I try to give practical advice for the real world. Thats how I learned what I know. By doing it. I'm not reading all this crap out of a book. I know what works and what doesn't cause i've done it and in most cases many , many times.
=
So,,, how many engines have you taken apart that had rods in them that looked like they were overheated from oh say GM, Ford, Chrysler??
Crap, never mind,,,

Ok,,, you are right & I am wrong, Bill is wrong, every other engine builder I know is wrong, every shop I know is wrong, GM, Ford & Chrysler is wrong,,,, every import engine that has "press fit" rods is wrong, the Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association is wrong, the Production Engine Rebuilders Association is wrong,, every text book on engine rebuilding I have ever seen is wrong but you are right :sad:

I am done with this, people can do their own research or call anyone they wish that does rebuilding & form their own opinions,,,,

If you go look it says "Family owned and operated since 1957". Just for grins why don't you give them a call and tell them that they shouldn't heat rod ends "cherry Red". I am sure that they will have an answer for you since I imagine they have done several hundred thousand rods in the last 59 years.

Wolfplace you are getting way to intense.

Wagamon Bros. 3719 3rd St. NE
Minneapolis , MN
763-789-7227

Like I said. Take a look at their web. Give them a call. The owners are Perry and Wally Wagamon.

I haven't been there since the mid 90's maybe they do it differently now. I know for a FACT that thousands of engines were assembled that way for years at Wagamon Bros. Maybe the industry doesn't like that any more. So be it. You do it your way and I'll do it my way and when we are at the end of our lives lets get together and discuss how many rod failures we've each had :)

My 383 rods are bluish on the small ends. Guess that means they heated them. Well that was last summer and many thousands of miles ago. Guess what? No failures yet. But I'll promise you this. If one of my rods break and I can see that its a fracture where it was heated I will immediately post it here with full apologies to you all. You can put that promise in the bank Mr. Wolfplace sir. You too BILLK.

I used to spend a considerable amount of time at an engine builder back in Minnesota when I lived there. They had some custom built electric pots that were about 4 inches square and had an heating element in the bottom. They would stick the small end of the rod into those heaters and they wouldn't take them out untin they were cherry to nearly yellow (as in VERY hot). Those guys are still in business and still use the same style pots to heat the rods. By now they have built engines numbering in 5 figures all with the rods getting the same treatment.


I had a D/MP Chevelle w/ a 283 back in the 70's the rods in which were assembled to the 12 1/2 compression forged pistons in exactly the same way. That engine saw some 10000RPM missed power shifts on several occasions and was properly shifted at 7500 RPM Hunderds of times. There is NO one who can tell me that the method I outlined won't work.

I have tons of empirical evidence that it will do NO harm to your connecting rod. Of course if you are using aluminum rods then this method is NOT for you.

:)

10000 RPM power shifts and 7500 RPM hundreds of times HMMMM If you want to blow smoke up our ass you better build a bigger fire then that my freind. From now on try to post some factual info that has some truth to it. Press fit aluminum rods now I have heard it all.

And if your using stock rods in 7500 RPM engine it can't be much for a power plant. LOL.


In addition to heating up the small end of the rod to a cherry red level you should also put the wrist pins in your freezer over night. This causes them to contract. Heating the small end of the rod causes the hole to expand. The greatest temperature differential is desirable.

You can do this operation in a free hand manner but it is a tense moment while you try to get the wrist pin centered in the piston at the same time you try to get the rod to the center of the wrist pin before the whole assembly becomes immobilized.

I have done this operation several times freehand. Its a tense moment but I haven't failed yet.

FWIW I use my oxy acetylene torch for a heat source. It works very quickly.

Good Luck :)

I am with Mike and Bill on this one heating a rod up cherry red is very unexceptable in the engine industry or even turning a rod blue. At our shop we may only hang 2 or 3 sets of press fit rods a year and we use the Sunnen rod heater that does not heat the rod up CHERRY RED as in most casses the rods hardly changes color.

And using a oxy acetylene torch for a heat source sounds kind of back yard to me as its not a very controled heat sorce.

Another vote for mikes method...

I use a sunnen CRH-50 to heat my rods... I also use temp sticks. I never get them over 450 deg... I usually shoot for 300/350 if the rods are the correct size this temp works well and you will not "stick" them..

I have a bit of back ground in metalurgy form my full time job and i can tell you cherry red will result in a damaged rod at some point.... It's just a fact, not and argument....Most steels will get red hot around 800 degrees. and along with that 800 degrees is right around the temp that most steels will normalize... The problem is that normalizing can either make the steel stronger/harder or weaker softer....(change the grain structer)
I personally never did the R&D on a stock rod so i cannot say witch way it would go but there is no need to since you can assemble the rod with half the heat....


Keith

10000 RPM power shifts and 7500 RPM hundreds of times HMMMM If you want to blow smoke up our ass you better build a bigger fire then that my freind. From now on try to post some factual info that has some truth to it. Press fit aluminum rods now I have heard it all.

And if your using stock rods in 7500 RPM engine it can't be much for a power plant. LOL.




I am with Mike and Bill on this one heating a rod up cherry red is very unexceptable in the engine industry or even turning a rod blue. At our shop we may only hang 2 or 3 sets of press fit rods a year and we use the Sunnen rod heater that does not heat the rod up CHERRY RED as in most casses the rods hardly changes color.

And using a oxy acetylene torch for a heat source sounds kind of back yard to me as its not a very controled heat sorce.


Ok..I give! You professional engine builders are right and I am wrong.
The professional racing engine builder that JUST did my 383 last summer heated my rods up enough to blue the small ends. I know this because I assembled the engine. EVERY rod was blued. So what? The engine runs fine. As I said in an earlier post you do it your way and I'll do it mine. In the end we can all sit by a nice comfy fire and reminisce about how many broken rods we've had. My total to date? (rapicky calculates) um...to date is ZERO.

THAT SAID, I take issue with this :

""If you want to blow smoke up our ass you better build a bigger fire then that my freind. From now on try to post some factual info that has some truth to it. Press fit aluminum rods now I have heard it all""

Three things sir:

#1 At NO time have I EVER spoken that way to anyone on Team Chevelle. I have had disagreements but I have always been polite and respectful to all , sir.

You belittle yourself ,sir ,when you speak like an immature little gutter snipe.

#2 At no time did I ever say that I had ever press fit aluminium rods. Frankly I wouldn't know an aluminum rod from a whatever. I have never had an engine with aluminum rods and probably never will. My exact quote was :

"Of course if you are using aluminum rods then this method is NOT for you"

How you permutated that into press fitting aluminum rods I do not know. If you don't press fit aluminum rods so be it. I wouldn't know nor do I care. I probably should never even have mentioned aluminum rods. I am ignoran't of aluminum rods. I freely admit it.

Sir, if you cannot imaging winding a blueprinted and balanced 283 to 7500 RPM regardless of how many times, that simply points to your ignorance of the 283 engine. God knows I wasn't the only one. There were tons of 238/327 engines at the strip many of which were doing exactly the same thing I was.

Back in the day when I was substantially younger than I am now I was into the rush of RPM. I would race my shadow for the sheer exhiliration of it. I was an RPM junkie. Those days are over now but 35 years ago they surely were not.

That particular engine was a forged pistoned , 12 1/2 to 1 compressioned .030 overbored , General Kinetics cammed , solid liftered , OTC 292 casting ported and polished headed ,Hedman headered, 750 Holley dbl pumpered, Edlebrock Torquer manifolded , Borg & Beck three finger clutched , Lakewood scattershield housinged, M21 transmissioned , 12 Bolt 4.88 geared 9" slicked,1965 Chevelle. It weighed 3420lbs with me sitting in the drivers seat according to the scale at Minnesota Dragways sometime in the vicinity of 30 years ago. This was a local strip. None of that exotic NHRA starting line goop nor did I have a "line lock" I couldn't afford such treasures. I had just as much car as my youthful pocketbook could afford.


BTW with that little teeny motor on the first day I ever had it at the strip the fourth run was a 12.96 @ 106 MPH. (FIRST DAY, sir) Somewhere in my collection of Chevelle trivia I still have the timing slip. The following weekend I broke the clutch ( I guess it didn't like those 6500 RPM launches.) That was the final weekend of the season and regrettably the dragstrip closed never again to open. I will never know what that car could have been tuned to because Minnesota was fresh out of dragstrips. At least any that were accessable to me.


Now then, Lets just imagine what might take place when missing a power shift at 7500 RPM with an engine like that. Lets just guess at the terminal RPM when I got my foot out of the carburetor shall we? You see? I emulated guys like "Sox & Martin", I power shifted my little Chevelle. When I missed a shift at 7500 RPM it was WOT. None of this granny shifting for me. Do you think an addidional 2500 RPM is likely unloaded at WOT?


I only had an 8000 RPM tach so I'll never really know but one thing I do know , my valve springs kept it all together. Oh yes? did I forget? The valve springs were the three piece kind. You know? The ones with two coils and a flat wound dampner? They allowed for some pretty unreal RPM. I no longer remember the specs but they were formidable.

Needless to say the tach pegged. You are right in that I may have misstated the ultimate RPM. Maybe it wasn't 10,000 RPM. Maybe it was 11,000...I just don't know.

Of course , sir , you weren't there so clearly you are ignorant of any facts about my car at all. Naturally of course that didn't stop you from delivering us of your opinion in a most immature manner. Its been my experience over the years that ignorant people often do that. In the future , sir , if you must chime in at least be mature about it.

I am betting that there is some one out there who reads these posts who has a tach with a "tell tale" needle who has missed a 7500 RPM power shift. Maybe that person or persons might step forward and let us know how high a small block might spin when missing a WOT power shift at 7500RPM.


Using a torch is "backyard". How snobbish , sir! Combine that with "ignorant" and you become a truly prize package. :) There are VASTLY MORE of us backyarders successfully building racing engines than there will EVER be of you "professional" engine building mavens with your glorious manufacturing facilities.

I have "blown" exactly one engine in my entire life. I mean truly DESTROYED. It let go in the lights spectacularly. Big clouds of smoke and all. Know what? Thats is the ONLY engine that I EVER had some one build for me. It was my 1968 Hurst Olds. I spent $2000 on that engine getting it race prepped by a "BIG" name racing engine builder in Minneapolis. Thats was BIG $DUST$ back in 1968. That was darned near 1/2 of the price I paid for that car brand new. 4 runs is all I got before I drove over my own oil.

Since then ( lets see now.....rapidly flicks fingers...thats 38 years ago. yup 38.) since that occasion every engine that has been built for a car of mine was built by ME! Thats a bunch of engines. Including my present 383 assembled in my humble "backyard" this past summer.


In closing I will apologize to BILLK , Wolfplace and the other courteous gentlemen herein if I got you riled up with my methods of doing things. I hereby promise never to attempt to build you an engine. Nor will I ever ask you to build me one. What happened to me with that Hurst Olds engine only happens to me once in a lifetime. I trust NO ONE!


In closing, sir, I will not apologize to you. In fact I figure you owe me one.

My 2 cents in this flame ;)
MY way of installation was:
at first i've try to install pin in the old rod from 305 engine just to understand - how much i need to heat a rod... By the way - it was quite cold weather, so the pins was a little squized ;)
And only after it i begin to work with new pistons...
As for torch and "backyard" - as i say before - there is no GOOD engine shops within 1000km from me... And those, that are near - they are idiots (well - one of this shops installed pistons for my friend on his engine from VAZ-2106 "LADA"... They are also press-fit. That shop installed pistons in WRONG direction on rods and said to my friend that it's OK - maybe the engine will be a little nosiy... And no warranty - so he ended with buying new pistons again. Bustards.) In this conditions i prefer to use "backyard" technology, but to be sure, that everything is assembled in correct way.
For sure - ther was NO direct contact of the flame from torch with the rods - i was using a kind of metal screen to deflect HOT air to the rods (eah, i know, that using a oxy torch on the metal changes the structure of the metal)...
As for heating - no, there was no glowing of the rods, but remember, that pins was quite cold, so it was easy to install em in MY conditions...

I think that it was Abraham Lincoln that once stated.

" It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth (or type) and remove all doubt."

Just my .02 I wish that I was a mod so I could just delete this whole letter writing contest.

Helps to put the pins in the freezer over night too.

Ok..I give! You professional engine builders are right and I am wrong.
The professional racing engine builder that JUST did my 383 last summer heated my rods up enough to blue the small ends. I know this because I assembled the engine. EVERY rod was blued. So what? The engine runs fine. As I said in an earlier post you do it your way and I'll do it mine. In the end we can all sit by a nice comfy fire and reminisce about how many broken rods we've had. My total to date? (rapicky calculates) um...to date is ZERO.

THAT SAID, I take issue with this :

""If you want to blow smoke up our ass you better build a bigger fire then that my freind. From now on try to post some factual info that has some truth to it. Press fit aluminum rods now I have heard it all""

Three things sir:

#1 At NO time have I EVER spoken that way to anyone on Team Chevelle. I have had disagreements but I have always been polite and respectful to all , sir.

You belittle yourself ,sir ,when you speak like an immature little gutter snipe.

#2 At no time did I ever say that I had ever press fit aluminium rods. Frankly I wouldn't know an aluminum rod from a whatever. I have never had an engine with aluminum rods and probably never will. My exact quote was :

"Of course if you are using aluminum rods then this method is NOT for you"

How you permutated that into press fitting aluminum rods I do not know. If you don't press fit aluminum rods so be it. I wouldn't know nor do I care. I probably should never even have mentioned aluminum rods. I am ignoran't of aluminum rods. I freely admit it.

Sir, if you cannot imaging winding a blueprinted and balanced 283 to 7500 RPM regardless of how many times, that simply points to your ignorance of the 283 engine. God knows I wasn't the only one. There were tons of 238/327 engines at the strip many of which were doing exactly the same thing I was.

Back in the day when I was substantially younger than I am now I was into the rush of RPM. I would race my shadow for the sheer exhiliration of it. I was an RPM junkie. Those days are over now but 35 years ago they surely were not.

That particular engine was a forged pistoned , 12 1/2 to 1 compressioned .030 overbored , General Kinetics cammed , solid liftered , OTC 292 casting ported and polished headed ,Hedman headered, 750 Holley dbl pumpered, Edlebrock Torquer manifolded , Borg & Beck three finger clutched , Lakewood scattershield housinged, M21 transmissioned , 12 Bolt 4.88 geared 9" slicked,1965 Chevelle. It weighed 3420lbs with me sitting in the drivers seat according to the scale at Minnesota Dragways sometime in the vicinity of 30 years ago. This was a local strip. None of that exotic NHRA starting line goop nor did I have a "line lock" I couldn't afford such treasures. I had just as much car as my youthful pocketbook could afford.


BTW with that little teeny motor on the first day I ever had it at the strip the fourth run was a 12.96 @ 106 MPH. (FIRST DAY, sir) Somewhere in my collection of Chevelle trivia I still have the timing slip. The following weekend I broke the clutch ( I guess it didn't like those 6500 RPM launches.) That was the final weekend of the season and regrettably the dragstrip closed never again to open. I will never know what that car could have been tuned to because Minnesota was fresh out of dragstrips. At least any that were accessable to me.


Now then, Lets just imagine what might take place when missing a power shift at 7500 RPM with an engine like that. Lets just guess at the terminal RPM when I got my foot out of the carburetor shall we? You see? I emulated guys like "Sox & Martin", I power shifted my little Chevelle. When I missed a shift at 7500 RPM it was WOT. None of this granny shifting for me. Do you think an addidional 2500 RPM is likely unloaded at WOT?


I only had an 8000 RPM tach so I'll never really know but one thing I do know , my valve springs kept it all together. Oh yes? did I forget? The valve springs were the three piece kind. You know? The ones with two coils and a flat wound dampner? They allowed for some pretty unreal RPM. I no longer remember the specs but they were formidable.

Needless to say the tach pegged. You are right in that I may have misstated the ultimate RPM. Maybe it wasn't 10,000 RPM. Maybe it was 11,000...I just don't know.

Of course , sir , you weren't there so clearly you are ignorant of any facts about my car at all. Naturally of course that didn't stop you from delivering us of your opinion in a most immature manner. Its been my experience over the years that ignorant people often do that. In the future , sir , if you must chime in at least be mature about it.

I am betting that there is some one out there who reads these posts who has a tach with a "tell tale" needle who has missed a 7500 RPM power shift. Maybe that person or persons might step forward and let us know how high a small block might spin when missing a WOT power shift at 7500RPM.


Using a torch is "backyard". How snobbish , sir! Combine that with "ignorant" and you become a truly prize package. :) There are VASTLY MORE of us backyarders successfully building racing engines than there will EVER be of you "professional" engine building mavens with your glorious manufacturing facilities.

I have "blown" exactly one engine in my entire life. I mean truly DESTROYED. It let go in the lights spectacularly. Big clouds of smoke and all. Know what? Thats is the ONLY engine that I EVER had some one build for me. It was my 1968 Hurst Olds. I spent $2000 on that engine getting it race prepped by a "BIG" name racing engine builder in Minneapolis. Thats was BIG $DUST$ back in 1968. That was darned near 1/2 of the price I paid for that car brand new. 4 runs is all I got before I drove over my own oil.

Since then ( lets see now.....rapidly flicks fingers...thats 38 years ago. yup 38.) since that occasion every engine that has been built for a car of mine was built by ME! Thats a bunch of engines. Including my present 383 assembled in my humble "backyard" this past summer.


In closing I will apologize to BILLK , Wolfplace and the other courteous gentlemen herein if I got you riled up with my methods of doing things. I hereby promise never to attempt to build you an engine. Nor will I ever ask you to build me one. What happened to me with that Hurst Olds engine only happens to me once in a lifetime. I trust NO ONE!


In closing, sir, I will not apologize to you. In fact I figure you owe me one.

Keep posting as I enjoy a good laugh and I am sure the next post you will be up to 12000 RPM with press fit rods and stock parts.

I used a oxy acetylene torch before i bought my sunnen heater. I probably did 12/15 engines like that with no issues...I also used the temp stick with it to be sure i did not over heat the rod. The biggest thing with the oxy acetylene torch is keeping the heat on the beam part of the rod and not getting the very end to hot... With a bit of practice it will work ok for you. Maybe not the best way but it does work....

Charbilly, I am not going to tell you that what your shop did didn't work for you, but it still does not make it right...Just because something works does not always make it the correct way of doing things...... Ever see a fat guy in a speedo????? It might fit but it's just not right!!!!!!

A red hot rod end is wrong no matter if it worked for you or not.... You stated that the last set of rods you got were blue on the ends,,,, that a big difference from red hot....

Keith

This is fun. Kinda like these novels that my girlfriend reads. You can read a sentence or two in the first chapter, then go to the last chapter in the book and it is a rehash of the sentences in the first chapter. Have always wondered what is discussed in all the other chapters. . . . . .

Gee Whiz- where's "God" when you need him???

Hinkson? If thats you....it must be real dark in there. You know...the place where you stuck your head.

There are some people who are born to be arbitrary , and just down right ornery. If I had my head where you obviously have yours I guess I would be arbitrary and ornery also. How do you deal with the odor? Final word on this subject :

Everything I have said stated in this thread is the gods honest truth. I have done each and everything that I said I did. I am not motivated to lie about things. That would serve no purpose. Unfortunately hinkson neither do you, and thats sad.

Hinkson? If thats you....it must be real dark in there. You know...the place where you stuck your head.

There are some people who are born to be arbitrary , and just down right ornery. If I had my head where you obviously have yours I guess I would be arbitrary and ornery also. How do you deal with the odor? Final word on this subject :

Everything I have said stated in this thread is the gods honest truth. I have done each and everything that I said I did. I am not motivated to lie about things. That would serve no purpose. Unfortunately hinkson neither do you, and thats sad.

Just comparing apples to apples what is the name of your shop and what else do have for equipment as I am sure you will make something up as that what you have been doing so for.

With the emails and calls I have gotten in the last day or so I'm not the only on that thinks your blowing smoke and with all the BS your spreading thats where the smell is coming from.LOL

charbilly,
Ok, I know I said I was done with this post but I think you kind of brought some of this on yourself
You got a wee bit defensive in your first answer to me telling everyone how impressive your 283 was & telling me to "bring it on Bud" in regards to my non existent 302 which I never said I had.
Just stated how GM decided to install pins in the 302 not something I had,,, I couldn't afford one either.

You also stated you couldn't afford "floated rods"?? Well a lot of us could not afford cool stuff but most I know used the good old GM factory rod & just honed the pin end, drilled a hole for oil & ran it.
Simple, cheap, effective,,, & known by any shop that actually did performance stuff in the late 50's & early 60's,, hell, it's still done in some Street Stock & Bomber stuff.

And just so you know, I have had & have driven a few cars over the years including a 283 in a 55 Chevy that was one of the original 101MPH club members at Fremont back in 1960 or so.
Don't believe any of this, go do a search on some of my older posts, they have lots' of pictures of most of what I have owned & driven from a 65 Chevelle to a Blown Alcohol Dragster.
Enough horn blowing,,,:)

Carl may be a little more "outspoken" than I but don't think the thought did not cross my mind when you kept telling me to call some shop that I highly doubt did as you think they did if they are half as good as you say.

A few quotes in case you forgot,,:
"Pressed pins? Man! Are you an elitist! Some of us youngsters back then didn't have the bread for full floaters. "

To "bring it on bud"

That I am too "intense" regarding what I feel to be misinformation.

Now,,, how about we all drop this crap, you admit just maybe you ain't supposed to get rods "cherry red" & we get back to engines,,,,, :rolleyes:

==========
V8fan,
Read your post that you tested on some junk stuff, found out what worked & got it done, glad to hear it worked for you.
Good to hear of some great old "backyard" thinkin that we all have done over the years that worked for you.
Good luck & have fun building your engine & any questions this is the place to get answers,,, & be "entertained" at the same time,, :D

Sometimes this place be better than TV :cool:

I'm with Mike and CNC on this one.
I've "backyard" done ONE set of pins in my life. I was about 16 yrs old and used the stove in the kitchen (always makes Mom proud) which had gas burners to heat the small end of the rods.
It worked well but IMO it is well worth it to just pay a machinist to do them if that is an option.
Mike and CNC can attest, that machinists don't get paid enough for this operation... R&R pistons...

I'm certified as a master machinist but don't have the equipment personally to do all of my own stuff, so I use machine shops for some of my needs.

I had a local DFW shop do some work for me when I first got back from the military and it didn't take me long to decide to go elsewhere...
It is a well known place, been in business forever, I've personally known the owner since I was 16, I worked for his family when I was 17-18 and at the time hung out in his shop learning in the early am.
He does rods with a torch and by hand, then finishes with a press as needed.
Now that I KNOW the right way, I was very disappointed.
The torch doesn't bother me as much as the fact he uses a press on a new piston. There is a certain amount of stress placed on a piston when you use a press, it may not ruin a piston, or ever matter, but I don't like to take risks when I'm dealing with a $600 set of pistons, going into a motor that will cost thousands...

You know what guys I am gonna state unequivocally that you are right and I am wrong. "cherry red" or anything approaching cherry red is too hot. I finally agree. To all I apologize.

My body of experience, My 283 and its performance are apparently all a figment of my imagination. Regrettably I never took any photographs of the car or any other substantiating documentation.

The only thing I have left of my years of dragracing is the time slip of the first day (and a partially dismembered trophy from my 1967 Oldsmobile 98 Luxury Sedan. 16.26 @86MPH proving that I'll race anything that runs) that I ever took the 65 chevelle to the dragstrip and at this point I am unmotivated to dig it up.

Early on in this thread I agreed that perhaps "cherry red" was a mistatement. I guess no one noticed that. Its a you say "potato's" and I say "potato's"...you know that old saying about accent and inflection.

This whole thing started with that mistatement. I will , however , say that I personally will NEVER allow anyone to "press" a pin into a rod and piston assembly. I don't care how big a body of evidence the industry has nor what all of you guys collective experience is I still say that heating the rod to "whatever" temperature is necessary is a better way to install a piston on a rod than "Pressing" it.

With respect to the "Automobile Manufacturers" pressing piston pins into rods that has absolutely NOTHING to do with what is right or wrong. They do that for two reasons. #1 they can afford to buy quality machines to do that. #2 its cheaper ( read "quicker") to press than to heat due to "economies of scale". ( look it up if you don't understand "economies of scale). If it were less costly per unit then you can bet they'd be heating too.

Any of you "experienced" machinists who would disagree that it takes a truly gifted guy and a VERY high quality machine with an enormous collection of different fittings to accomodate every rod/piston combination AND press the two together without the very real potential of damaging the piston, have your head buried in the sand!. And lets agree, a damaged piston is "JUNK". There is no repairing that kind of damage.

I have done my fair share of piston installs with a torch. I have never had a problem. I will continue to install pistons that way albeit not likely a lot anymore cause I can no longer do much physical labor.

With respect to Carl Hinkson I don't really care that he "may be a little out spoken" His behavior is beneath contempt. Those of us who voluntarily take our time to assist other Chevelle owners out of the goodness of our hearts do NOT deserve that kind of treatment. He needs to grow up.


As I said in an early post. I KNOW occasionally that I may deliver misinformation. I admit that. When it happens I am happy to correct myself when it is brought to my attention,

That said however I have a massive amount of experience working on virtually every marque made in America and most of those made in Japan and Europe also. I have owned and built a total of 4 Chevelle's including the one I presently own. I have owned 5 chevelles but the 5th was the 1970 LS6. I can hardly say I built that as I bought it new.

I quit counting engines that I rebuilt at the 100th. I no longer care. The 100th was decades ago. I have used a torch on every rod I ever plugged into a piston. THAT SAID...I agree that "CHERRY RED" was a mistatement and I AGREE that the rod need NOT be heated that hot.

Having said that......should one forget himself/herself and accidently overheat a rod end DO NOT panic. Just stick the pin thru the piston/rod assemble and continue on. I am confident that the world will not come to an end nor will your rod suffer any undue damage if any at all and it'll happily do its part to pump air for a long long time.


For those of you who think that these posts are tedious and unnecessary I cordially invite you to go do something else. You can bet that there are many guys in the background who read all of these posts and no matter what the subject is they read and learn. They may never post nor reply. They may only read.

I am talking to those guys also.
I am also talking to the guys who , on a tight budget , need a practical way to install a rod onto a piston. Not all of us can afford the luxury of tossing an engine into a trailer and dumping it off at the machine shop to be built into a powerful drag racing engine. Some of us do our engines piecemeal like I did with my present 383. My final bill for that engine was $1500. I invite you to take your 350 smallblock fully assembled to your local engine builder and have handed back to you a fully assembled 383 stroker for $1500.


Gentlemen what I am always trying to do is to give EVERY reader in Team Chevelle the benefit of the 4 decades of mechanical experience that I have in doing engines , transmissions , differentials , suspensions...ad nauseum at home with the tools that the average guy typically has to work with.

I know that you machine shop owners , High performance parts store owners or in some other way "connected" automotive people can generally afford to do it "right" by your definition. I believe however that some if not all of you sometimes forget the grass roots guy who has every tool he owns in one of those "Craftsman" tool boxes with the handle on top.

He's the guy I try to reach. Thats why I recommend that he heat the end of his connecting rod and freeze the pin overnight to assemble the two. "Cherry Red" was a poor use of words and for that I apologize. I definitely do NOT apologize for the method.

You know what guys I am gonna state unequivocally that you are right and I am wrong. "cherry red" or anything approaching cherry red is too hot. I finally agree. To all I apologize.

My body of experience, My 283 and its performance are apparently all a figment of my imagination. Regrettably I never took any photographs of the car or any other substantiating documentation.

The only thing I have left of my years of dragracing is the time slip of the first day (and a partially dismembered trophy from my 1967 Oldsmobile 98 Luxury Sedan. 16.26 @86MPH proving that I'll race anything that runs) that I ever took the 65 chevelle to the dragstrip and at this point I am unmotivated to dig it up.

Early on in this thread I agreed that perhaps "cherry red" was a mistatement. I guess no one noticed that. Its a you say "potato's" and I say "potato's"...you know that old saying about accent and inflection.

This whole thing started with that mistatement. I will , however , say that I personally will NEVER allow anyone to "press" a pin into a rod and piston assembly. I don't care how big a body of evidence the industry has nor what all of you guys collective experience is I still say that heating the rod to "whatever" temperature is necessary is a better way to install a piston on a rod than "Pressing" it.

With respect to the "Automobile Manufacturers" pressing piston pins into rods that has absolutely NOTHING to do with what is right or wrong. They do that for two reasons. #1 they can afford to buy quality machines to do that. #2 its cheaper ( read "quicker") to press than to heat due to "economies of scale". ( look it up if you don't understand "economies of scale). If it were less costly per unit then you can bet they'd be heating too.

Any of you "experienced" machinists who would disagree that it takes a truly gifted guy and a VERY high quality machine with an enormous collection of different fittings to accomodate every rod/piston combination AND press the two together without the very real potential of damaging the piston, have your head buried in the sand!. And lets agree, a damaged piston is "JUNK". There is no repairing that kind of damage.

I have done my fair share of piston installs with a torch. I have never had a problem. I will continue to install pistons that way albeit not likely a lot anymore cause I can no longer do much physical labor.

With respect to Carl Hinkson I don't really care that he "may be a little out spoken" His behavior is beneath contempt. Those of us who voluntarily take our time to assist other Chevelle owners out of the goodness of our hearts do NOT deserve that kind of treatment. He needs to grow up.


As I said in an early post. I KNOW occasionally that I may deliver misinformation. I admit that. When it happens I am happy to correct myself when it is brought to my attention,

That said however I have a massive amount of experience working on virtually every marque made in America and most of those made in Japan and Europe also. I have owned and built a total of 4 Chevelle's including the one I presently own. I have owned 5 chevelles but the 5th was the 1970 LS6. I can hardly say I built that as I bought it new.

I quit counting engines that I rebuilt at the 100th. I no longer care. The 100th was decades ago. I have used a torch on every rod I ever plugged into a piston. THAT SAID...I agree that "CHERRY RED" was a mistatement and I AGREE that the rod need NOT be heated that hot.

Having said that......should one forget himself/herself and accidently overheat a rod end DO NOT panic. Just stick the pin thru the piston/rod assemble and continue on. I am confident that the world will not come to an end nor will your rod suffer any undue damage if any at all and it'll happily do its part to pump air for a long long time.


For those of you who think that these posts are tedious and unnecessary I cordially invite you to go do something else. You can bet that there are many guys in the background who read all of these posts and no matter what the subject is they read and learn. They may never post nor reply. They may only read.

I am talking to those guys also.
I am also talking to the guys who , on a tight budget , need a practical way to install a rod onto a piston. Not all of us can afford the luxury of tossing an engine into a trailer and dumping it off at the machine shop to be built into a powerful drag racing engine. Some of us do our engines piecemeal like I did with my present 383. My final bill for that engine was $1500. I invite you to take your 350 smallblock fully assembled to your local engine builder and have handed back to you a fully assembled 383 stroker for $1500.


Gentlemen what I am always trying to do is to give EVERY reader in Team Chevelle the benefit of the 4 decades of mechanical experience that I have in doing engines , transmissions , differentials , suspensions...ad nauseum at home with the tools that the average guy typically has to work with.

I know that you machine shop owners , High performance parts store owners or in some other way "connected" automotive people can generally afford to do it "right" by your definition. I believe however that some if not all of you sometimes forget the grass roots guy who has every tool he owns in one of those "Craftsman" tool boxes with the handle on top.

He's the guy I try to reach. Thats why I recommend that he heat the end of his connecting rod and freeze the pin overnight to assemble the two. "Cherry Red" was a poor use of words and for that I apologize. I definitely do NOT apologize for the method.
=
charbilly,
Please reread my posts, all of them.
I never stated that pressing a pin in was the correct way to do this.
I do not believe any one else disagreed with you that heating is the correct way to install a piston pin.
I completely agree that heating them is the correct way.
As far as I know the OEM does not press them, they heat them also & I never stated differently.
The AERA does not recommend pressing, they recommend heating.

The only difference of opinion I had was the temp at which the operation in question is or should be done.

Ok, I am really done beating on this now, I think the points have been made,, possibly more than once :boring: :D

Heh heh... more gas on the fire!!! When I overhauled my 283 in high school auto shop, we pressed the pins in. I trusted my well-experienced shop teacher; little did I know that he was all wrong! I guess my 283 didn't know it was wrong either, for it ran a long time that way, and additionally, the pistons have now been removed from it and are still salvageable- in great shape!

Just for the record, what does the factory overhaul manual have to say about assembling SBC pistons to connecting rods? ('65 my manual is in another state with the car)

GEEEEEE --------I Was thinking I might get blood splashed on me, Should I go to a FORD site--------WHERE is the blood press. pills and the Prozak!!!
My hat is off to the Nextel Eng. Bldrs. Spin that sucker 9 Grand for 4 or 5 hours without lifting except for pit stops. Watching the drags last week, The funny cars--Dragsters----A comment was made they produce 6000 H P. Thats about 700 HP per Cyl.---- P.S. How does John Force get his wrist pins in the big paint buckets hes using? Big hammer or a burns-o-matic torch?
Everyone just calm down, Will a weed wacker run on Nitrous?
P.S.
Its not that I dont know nothing!!
I dont even suspect nothing --- Bob