I had one guy do the body work and he didn't want to paint the car because he didn't have a paint booth. So I found another guy to paint the car in a booth. the guy that did the body work did a good job I thought. He primed it with PPG NCP primer and block sanded then wet sanded with 320 grit. I took the car to the other guy to have it painted. originaly I was going to have him spray it with DP sealer,but after reading some posts on here that said there was no need to use sealer I checked around with some people and asked if sealer was necessary. The guy that sold me the paint and materials from the PPG store said that it was not necessary as long as the whole car was in primer.So he sprayed the car today with no sealer. He used PPG deltron 2000 BC/CC in Stellar Blue. Car looks awesome but can see scratches!! I got on the phone to the guy who did the body work and asked what happened-- "I thought it was ready for paint"!! He said that I needed to seal it to fill in the scratches before the paint went on... I thought that he had sanded it with 600 grit but he only used the 320.. what is the right way to do it?
Should it have just been sealed before the paint to fill in the scratches or should it have been sanded with the 600 and not needed sealer?? I'm confused!!!
Also does anyone think those scratches will come out with a good buff job????

If there in the primer, under the base coat, under the clear coat i don't think anything is going to get them out.

OH $#%$ I"M BUMMIN'

That is the problem with having different people do the work, they always blame the other guy. Depending on the color, 320 should have worked. It is pushing it big time, 500 or 600 is best. But I have a feeling it isn't even 320. Or, it is 320 wet paper that was used dry. Anyway you look at it, you are stuck. The guy with the "you needed the sealer to fill the scratches", that the heck is that about, how about sand it with finer paper so you don't need to fill the scratches!
Do these scratches appear to be the final sanding, in other words, ALL over on ever square inch? Or could they be only where the car was blocked and instead are 180 or something that didn't get sanded out properly?

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

MartinSR
What would have to be done to get the scratches out for this guy?
Would it be better to prime over the new paint and sand better or just wet sand the new paint down to the scratches?

c.c.c., if you were to sand the clear down with 600 and shoot another coat or two of color and then another two coats of clear, it would be a very smooth finish. In fact, if the scratches are in the primer, the clear has already "buried" them and it would only take a little sanding to "fill" them.

The sad part is, some communication between the bodyman and the painter would have eliminated the problem.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Thanks MARTINSR,
The car was wet sanded with the 320, I stopped in while he was doing it, but didn't know at the time that it was only 320. He mentioned quickly that it needed to be sealed, but didn't say it was to "cover" scratches. The guy that did the painting put on seven coats of base coat (blue) trying to hide the scratches. Then three coats of clear. When I saw the car last it was still in the booth under the bright lights, I'm hoping that when it's outside it won't look so bad. Most guys that have seen it think that they will come out with buffing. Do you think so or should I just start wet sanding again? If so, what grit paper? And will it need to be repainted or just recleared? Thanks again for the help!!

Ozzy, if those scratches are in the primer, no buffing is going to help. If you cut the top of the clear flat, you will still see the scratches. It is like laying a piece of glass on your lawn, you can still see the "texture" of the lawn through the glass.

I am not convinced it was all the bodymans fault. I don't like hearing "seven coats of base" that is too much color. I agree, there are times when you apply more than the usual three coats, but when I hear seven, all I think of is that base is full of solvent and it "helped" the scratches not hid them. When you have so much solvent, it gets soaked up by the primer and "swells" the scratches. Or it softens the (soaks up) top coat of primer that was used to fill coarser, blocking scratches and it "falls" down into those scratches. I just don't like the seven coats of base part.

What to do now? All you can do is sand it flat as I mentioned with 500 and re-shoot color and clear. Be careful not to cut through the clear or even come close to cutting through it. Just sand it nice and flat with 500 wet and use a Sqeegee to wipe away the water so get a good look as you are going. Then the painter should be able to apply two coats of color and two coats of clear, it will be beautiful.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

MARTINSR sounds like he knows his stuff. I would wait a week, color sand the car and buff it. It might cure your problem. If it doesn't scuff it all up and reshoot it. If you have to shoot it again it's a good time to fix any body work that didn't come out perfect the first time. I must have painted around 75 cars now and never have used sealer.

It doesn't matter if you wait a week and sand it and buff it, because the scratch that is causing you to see the scratch is still there. Like was mentioned with the glass on your lawn analogy, it wouldn't matter how smooth or thick the glass is, you still see the lawn. The only solution is to sand the whole car (500-600 grit, not P500 or P600 grit. there is a difference) and shoot another couple of coats of color and reclear it.

Thanks for all your help guys!
Sounds like the best solution is to sand and re-paint. I don't think I will be able to do that though. I'm way over budget now! I'd have to buy all the paint and clear and what not and pay the painter again and also would have to buy the stencil stripe kit again... It sucks!!!!!!!!!
I guess I'll have to live with the scratches! they really aren't that bad ,but they are noticable if you're looking.
most people that have seen it don't see them until I point them out...
thanks again..

ps should it have been sanded with lighter paper or what's the answer?

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DRIVE HARD
69 ss396

Ozzy,

What you need to know is what layer the scratches are in..below the sealer ,base or clear...Its a good idea to use sealer (which shouldn't be sanded) to get an even base color and might fill some scratches.
I agree with MartinSr that 7 coats of base
is alot..Sounds like not enough finish sanding..Alot is personal preference but my dad paints alot and usually wet sands with
400 for a final sanding before sealing. He sealed my car was before painting and took only 2 quarts of base for good even coverage.
Are you sure the scratches aren't in the clear?? I was horrified when he wet sanded my shiny clearcoat after
application ...1000,1200,1500 grit but after
buffing its extremely shining and smooth.
As MartinSR said regardless your scrathes should be filled and at worst you might have to cut into the clear and rebase and reclear it. Might be an expensive way to get a very smooth paint job but it will certainly work.
After just having a similar experience with scratches I'd definitely recommend buffing a test area and see what happens..
good luck


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best regards
Importtech

Dupont says their Chromapremier sealer can be applied over 220 scratches,wait 20 minutes and spray the base.Have you ever seen basecoat sprayed over 220 scratches?Yikes.I could see where the bodyman could have finished with 220-320 and expected the painter to use a wet on wet sealer and he didn't.The painter should have known.If he saw sand scratches he should have wetsanded the basecoat and reshot it instead of trying to bury the scratches.Also what color was the base?Some colors are very transparent and unless you have the correct color sealer or primer down you could easily spray 10 coats of color before you get coverage.Thats the reason for Duponts Valueshade system,which is basically using a specific undershade to so the paint will cover better and cut down on materials.

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http://photos.yahoo.com/ochrisl
Updated 4/30/02

sounds like both ways were right then; just had a lack of communication!! The painter was in kind of a hurry because he was doing it as a side job at work...
but I can't blame him because he just sprayed what I got him for materials and I crossed the sealer off my list at the last minute after talking with the guy at the paint store---guess that's why he's at the store and not painting cars!!!!!!!!!!! I just read on here that there was no need for sealer. I guess I missed the part about sealer covering over the 320 scratches.
Afterwards the painter said he always uses DP sealer before he paints a car---I guess not ALWAYS!! But he thought that we sanded with 600.. ALL AROUND CLUSTER$#$#!!!!

THANKS A LOT GUYS


by the way the color is stellar blue from a 96 blazer-love the color-hate the scratches--

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DRIVE HARD
69 ss396

Seems to me the painter should have known enough to stop after a few coats and sand the base coat smooth before proceding. I agree with MartinSR that 7 coat is way too many and should never be necessary. I know that with Spies/Hecker base coat, 3 coats is always enough to cover any color primer or sealer. "Value Shading" sealer is un-necessary and a waste of time and material with this product. OZZY, I hope you get lucky and a big part of your trouble will go away after sanding and buffing.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports

Seems to me sanding down a fresh paint job and reshooting it is a waste of time and material.Using the right shade of primer/sealer is going to save you material regardless of the paint brand.

What is the purpose of a sealer...whys every one think that a sealer is a cure all? A sealer is applied for better uniform coverage right? So whys does everyone think that they need their car sealed when its got 2K primer all over it...YOU DONT! Please someone tell me why they believe you need to seal?

Yes there are times when a sealer is what is needed but not when your car is nothing but 2K primer. If you need sealer to hide those sctraches, then you first need to invest in some finer grit paper not more paint. We do all our wet sanding with 500 and yet to use a sealer.

If you properly primed and sanded your car a sealer is nothing but a waste of paint, money and orange peel period. Also on the "Value Shading" it is a good idea to use. Not only does it cut down on materials but if you ever get a rock chip that colored primer will help mask that chip, were a non colored gray primer would stick out like a sore thumb. It doenst matter what brand you spray some colors just dont cover all that well. One that sticks in my mind is a dark blusish purple from dodge, it never covers. We spray shermen williams, the guy down the road uses PPG and the next uses DuPont and all have trouble with that one. Good luck...Eric

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1970 chevelle
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a buick baby
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/sevt_chevelles

I will say this again. Spies/Hecker base coat will cover ANY color primer in 2 to 3 coats. All those other inferior brands(including DuPont, which owns Spies/Hecker) will not, especially PPG. The only reason you need to use sealer is if you don't end up with fine enough sandpaper(400 or 500). As to the chipping issue, our thinking has always been, If you have a chip, you have a problem that has to be addressed anyway.And if you have a show car, you have most certianly need to fix the chip NOW.
Don't ever let anyone ( especially a salesman) tell you that all paint lines are the same.They are not.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports

Well there you are boys,the solution to all your paint problems,use Spies Hecker.I would but they dont sponser a Winston Cup car.

Ok. Opinions are like.... and I have one so, I'm going to jump in here on the sealer thing. As so far as sealer hiding scratches as I say BS, I wet sand all, prior to base or sealer with 400 to 600 depending on color. Anything corser than 320 (and even then) I've seen the scratches, regardless. I shoot Dupont, according to some it's sounds like an "inferior" paint system. But I know it and the systems I use, and it works for me! If I had a local outlet for Spies-Hecker I would probably try it. As to sealing requirements, for complete coverage with "2k" primers I don't allways seal, I dont think it is that necessary. For "value-shading" I seal. For repairs and overlap I seal (not color blending) I seal. I've had a lot less problems by taking the extra-step in sealing. As to not sanding a sealer I also say BS, I remove nibs mabey some light dust or orange-peel with 600 wet. I just don't try to use a sealer to fill, that is what a primer/surfacer is for. From What I've been told by Dupont reps and my local supplier that there is no concern by sanding a sealer, is just isn't required all the time. Also, block a sealer with 600 or 1000 wet and then we'll talk about a "smooth" top-coat. Just my Biased .02, and probably talking-out-my-hat again... yep I sure am. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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'68 SS-396 (still workin' on it)
"Reality is the illusion of life without drugs and alcohol"
-2 Below Custom Automotive
Fbks, AK.

Gordon, I have never shot Spies but have heard it is good stuff. There distribution is SO bad that they just can't get out there, too bad. The one question I have is if it covers so good, how does it blend? I have found that those colors that cover like a mad man don't like to be blended because the "want" to cover so bad.

Just remember, they may be good, but there are dang few show winning cars shot in it! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Not because it isn't good, but they just have such a small part of the market.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Tblw68ss, I agree mostly with you on when to use sealer.As for Dupont being an inferior paint system, I doubt it.Its designed for production refinishing as is PPG.Theres a Dupont rep that comes in our shop every week or so checking things out,whats up,hows things working out,you need anything,any problems? Same with PPG,always someone trying to get our business.I can honestly say i have never seen or heard from a Spies Hecker rep or even know where to get it if i wanted to.There are three Dupont/PPG suppliers within a 30 mile radius of me.My wife works for one of the biggest automotive paint manufacturers in the world,same thing with them, harder to find,not as much tech support available. they are more worried about selling to the OEM's than the the collision industry.I think Spies Hecker may be more into the OEM's and Europe,thats why you don't see as much here.Even if it is a good product the availability and support is lacking.

I guess I have some explaining to do. First, Spies Hecker does sponsor some racing interests, mostly in the NHRA. I don't think any NASCAR, but don't forget, it's owned by DuPont. It's not a new company. Established in 1882. (yes,120 years old)It hasn't been in the US long, but now that it's owned by Du Pont and, Just recently, carried by Finishmaster(at least in the Chicago area), it will take off as soon as people try it.
I can only say this. When I used PPG DBU we were tinting formulas on almost every car. And before that Du pont wasn't any better. With Spies, we almost never have to tweak formulas and most of the time get away with panel painting. I know this sounds impossible to people still using other products, but it is true. I spent 2 years trying to convert the shop I work in and now, the owner thanks me every day. Far less matching problems, a more user friendly product, and much faster. It make his job easier and he makes more money.And Martin, blending is great because of the color match. You now how PPG base coat always looks grainy under the clear and doesn't match OEM paint,especially high end European cars, no matter how smooth you get the clear? Spies is much smoother and is perfectly even even on silvers and other high metalics. Check my site to see high end show cars we have done.
If anyone is is interested in more info on Spies, e-mail or call me. I don't work for them and have nothing to gain from promoting them. Just somrone who has used all the other products, not afraid to try new products, and found the best out there at this time.OK, getting off my soapbox now guys.

Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports http://communities.msn.com/Restorationphotos/shoebox.msnw?Page=1

Well shucky darn! Lemme see if I got this right...I should use sealer if I need to fill sand scratches, I should use value shade sealer--Oh wait! I shouldn't use sealer, it's not necessary. I should do the final sanding with 350, 400, 500 or 600 grit and it shouldn't be the "P" grit rating...or should it? On top of that, I should use Spies Hecker or was that DuPont or one of the other el cheapo paint lines?

<grin> If I wasn't an experienced painter, I would be absolutely underwhelmed with the wealth of knowledge I've gained from all these posts. I can only imagine how an inexperienced person would view them. Isn't it strange that experienced painters have so many different techniques and product preferences, yet we all can do passable, even show quality work?

Heck, maybe it's not so strange. There are people out there in the world who will swear that the AMC Gremlin was the best car ever built...especially if it had mud flaps installed. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

so sounds like both ways are right.
but the general consensus is that it should have been sanded finer than 320.?.
some use sealer and some say they never see a reason for sealer.
I'm no body man.. I'm a little "underwhelmed" as vettfella said.

I'm not sure what the right way is!?!
Wet sanded car with 2000 grit and buffed yesterday. Looks good and shiney but can still see some scratches--- bummer!!!
Not too bad I just know they are there and it pisses me off!
Maybe re-paint in a year or so??
Just can't afford it now!!
Thanks for all the input!!!
Never seen that Spies Hecker paint before...

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DRIVE HARD
69 ss396

OZZY69, it is really very simple. Sometimes sealers are needed with EVERY paint system. If Gordon was given a car to paint that was sanded with 220, I would bet he would need sealer with his Spies Hecker. I am not speaking for him but there is a time when sealer is needed, I would put money on it. The thing is, I doubt he finds himself in that position because he prepair his jobs in such a way that he never needs it.

What is comes down to is this, some painters, (not paint, but PAINTERS) don't use sealer, ever. Whiles other painters (even shooting Speis Hecker) use sealer EVERY time. The big difference is what they have became accustomed to and what works for them. I personally don't use sealer, I PREP the car in such a way, that is possible. That is not so say it is "that" much better if at all. I feel that it eliminates work and saves money. Another painter may prepair his work much the way I do, but uses a sealer EVERY time. He is not wasting his time and money. He has found that when he does this, he has fewer problems. I am the first to admit, you have to be on top of the project from start to finish to pull of a no sealer job. If you are painting in a shop where others are prepping you work, you are probably going to be using sealer. You can't take the chance that the preppers did a good enough job for you. If you use a good quality sealer and use it by the recommendations of the manufacture, you will put out a good product.
If you don't use a sealer and prep it for such, you will put out a good product. I don't care what brand of paint you are using.

That is NOT to say that guys who use sealer are "cutting corners", some are, but that is not always the case. When you prepair a car and don't plan on using a sealer, there are extra steps that you have to do to ENSURE you don't have a problem. If you were to skip these extra steps and simply seal it, it is NOT the wrong way, as long as you used a quality sealer and used it correctly.

There are products out there that do a SUPER job at sealing out "nasties" also. Sometimes you just don't have the time (or the car doesn't "deserve" it, oh boy here I go with that again!) So you get a good sealer and get the job done.

Lets get to the preping issue and color coverage. If you have a completely primed car and sanded with 500 I don't care what paint brand you are using, you don't need sealer (ok, there are some colors with some brands that cover SO poor you should have a similar color as a substrate for you basecoat color) If your car looks like a quilt with a bunch of different color panels, I don't care what paint you are using, I would think you would choose to use a sealer. If you have found that your paint in that color CAN cover all those different color panels, then don't use sealer. BUT, if you havn't use the product enough to have that security, SEAL IT.


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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Sorry, double post deleted.
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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 06-15-2002).]

BS nothing will ever beat lacquer. That new paint is so thick and fakey looking I wouldn't use it for anything. JMO

A few years ago I did a quickie sand job with 320 DA sander and took it to the painter,and I told him to finish sand it as it was only DA sanded.He called me when he was ready to paint it.I asked him to let me watch.He sealed it beacause I had to replace the hood and fender(hit a deer)so to get an even color.I had never painted then so I didn't know what to look for.He painted BC/CC with RM paint,med blue.He put the base on pretty thick because sanding scratches showed through.He thought it might fill them.After he finished they stuck out like a sore thumb.I asked him why and he promptly told me I had done a poor job sanding.I mentioned that I had asked him to final sand but he said he didn't hear me.Oh well. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gifAfter the car sat out in the hot sun for a couple weeks(normal use)they disappeared.I mean completely.It was one of hte smoothest paints I had ever seen.I didn't know much about painting but I knew a smooth paint job when I saw it.I don't know why it did that but it did and I was ok with it.Maybe it will be ok after all.Who knows?
That's why I do my own now.It won't be lack of communication.Lack of knowledge maybe but not lack of comm. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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John 67ss
ACES #2887
Team Chevelle Gold #127

[This message has been edited by 67ss (edited 06-16-2002).]

LMAO @ ccc!

[This message has been edited by 70isfine (edited 06-16-2002).]

I dont know much about this, but I did notice the painter used alot of paint, more than normal.
Could the extra amounts of paint have caused the more open rougher undercoatings to swell?
Like absorb the solvents and soften?
Wouldnt this cause a texture like under the clear? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/confused.gif
just guessing?
T.C.

Yes,too many coats of base coat will cause problems. One being too much solvent. The other being excess texture. Some paints, like PPG always have too much texture (nder the clear) no matter how slick the clear is.
Martin, yes there are times that I use sealer,but only on production bodywork. On new OEM, E-coated parts, including flexible bumper covers, I seal to get the proper film build. (With Spies technology, sanding or even scuffing these e-coated parts is unnecessary to get proper adhesion but that is a subject for another day)I also will seal in production situations when there has been a lot of straightening and there are numerous "cut-throughs" from sanding the primer. And yes, if someone handed me a car to paint that was sanded with 320, I would have to weigh all the factors and decide if I would re- sand with 400 and then 500 or just apply sealer.
The reasons I avoid using sealer are:
1. It adds unnecessary thickness or film build to the paint job.
2.It add more solvent that can cause problems such as "die back", shrinking, etc.
3. It's another place for dirt and dust to get in your paint especially when applied in less than perfect conditions.
4. Cost. At over a dolar an ounce, it will add over $50.00 to your paint job.
So,that's it. It's not right or wrong to use sealer if you feel it's necessary, but if you don't need it, your better off not using it.
It's hard to imagine anyone still talking about using laquer in this day and age. No offense to whoever said that,but you may be interested to know that with a little extra work, urethane can be made to look almost exactly like laquer. It's certainly worth not using a product that will be shrinking and cracking in a short time. But I guess it depends on how fussy you are.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports

Gordon, we are on the same page, you have outlined exactly what I have said in the past. I just wanted to clear it up for everyone, there is a need for sealer. You just have to figure out when, that is the issue. Thanks

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"