I'm rewiring part of the 2nd floor of the house (all new, old wires to be 100% removed) and I have a question on outlets

I can wire either with a gang box above the outlet and run 1 line down to it, or I can run it in series, 1 line down and the other line off the other side and back up the wall and on to the next outlet

Is there any reason to pick one over the other? None are switched, and the attic is wide open, so it's no problem getting the wires down the walls

Just to make it easy, I would use a junction box in the attic and run a single line to each outlet. That way if you ever have a problem with one outlet it wont kill the power to the others if it has to be replaced. Just my 2 cents worth. but that is the way I wired my whole house

I'd run it the easiest, cheapest, and shortest way possible. Most wire runs come from the source to the closest junction (recepticle) box. The wire then gangs or chains in series to the next box.
As long as you make wire connections in accessible boxes, one can always troubleshoot if there's a problem.

the shortest cheapest way is the way the contractors would do it... that being said ... whats up there as far a current draw ??? got sana steam room ,elec heaters,elec water heater in bathrooms, waterbed heaters ,how about the an office with a computer they really should have its own line ...gang box running everthing in series sounds great till you start stacking up the amps...... sub box with circuts for every major load would be more in line .... wouldn't want the wife hair drier running off same circute as my computer :)

the shortest cheapest way is the way the contractors would do it... that being said ... whats up there as far a current draw ??? got sana steam room ,elec heaters,elec water heater in bathrooms, waterbed heaters ,how about the an office with a computer they really should have its own line ...gang box running everthing in series sounds great till you start stacking up the amps...... sub box with circuts for every major load would be more in line .... wouldn't want the wife hair drier running off same circute as my computer :)


I'm installing a sub panel on the 2nd floor. Every room will have 2 circuts, 1 for lights, 1 for outlets. Yeah, overkill but I need to put in the panel anyways, so why not put in a big one and break it all apart when I have the opportunity.

The entire 2nd floor is getting redone as it's all knob/tube, there's only 3 outlets on the floor, and instead of trying to tie into the old stuff, I'm going to run a main from the basement main panel to the subpanel and do everything fresh.

The total current draw up there now is minimal. low watt lights, no AV equipment, etc. It's all on a 10 amp breaker now and I've never tripped it, so I think I'm good in terms of overall draw

There'l be a laundry up there in the near future, but both machines will be on dedicated outlets

Kurt,

Sounds like you are taking your feed(s) from the panel up to the attic then dropping it/them down into the walls, thus not disturbing the walls in the rooms you are re-wiring. Correct?

You can gang them; feed to the attic into a J box, then feed several outlets out of the J box. Problem is, by code, you are only so many connections inside the J box, and the number depends on the size of the box itself.

Other issue is loading of the feed. Figure 100 watts = .75 amps. Figure out how many recepticles you need, then assume 100 watts worth of stuff is plugged into each. You don't want your estimated continuous load to exceed 60% of the circuit amp rating. Pretty sure this is accurate but do double check. These figures will give you about 8-9 recepticles per 15 amp circuit.

Of course, if you think one or more recepticles will carry a higher load, like say a bathroom recepticle where a hair dryer may be used, reduce the number of recepticles on that circuit.

You'll use more cable if you daisy chain them, but doing so also allows you to wire in a GFCI in the first recepticle and then all the recepticles after the GFCI will also be protected, not a bad idea and might even be code if they are going into bedrooms. Bathrooms must be on their own circuit, and must be GFCI protected, recepticles and lights.

Dan

EDIT: Now I see what you are doing - sub panel on the second floor. Most everthing still applies, and yes - your proposed solution is way over kill, but then you know that. Remember that big panels cost more than little ones, and lots of breakers cost more than a few. You could probably shave 100 off your job by sizing the circuits to industry norms.

But, I over build everything so I'm no one to talk. :D

Have fun...

Dan

Thanks Dan,

The most outlets on 1 circut wil be 5. And the bathroom will just have the 1 GFI on it's own as well. Overkill, but the cost difference to break it all apart is minimal in the grand scheme of the project

What I was considering with the Jbox is to run a perimeter line around the room, and then jbox above each outlet and drop the line down

I've apparently got a mental block here Kurt.

Are you taking you outlet feed(s) from the panel up into the attic then dropping them into the tops of the walls down to your new outlets?

There's somethin I ain't gitten here......

Are you taking you outlet feed(s) from the panel up into the attic then dropping them into the tops of the walls down to your new outlets?

I'm running a 6gauge line from the main panel (in the basement) to the new subpannel on the 2nd floor. From that subpanel, I'll run 12 guage up into & around the attic and down the walls to the new outlet locations

The house is very old, and with the attic unfinished, you can literally see right down the inside of the walls (ballon framed, lath/plaster walls), so running the new wires should be pretty easy

Legally, and for safety, you can't use Romex (NM wire) in exposed walls unless you plan to cover it up.

Legally, and for safety, you can't use Romex (NM wire) in exposed walls unless you plan to cover it up.

Exposed? Not sure what you mean

How would this be any different than someone doing a prewire on a newly framed house?

In a newly framed house the wires will be covered up and protected. They will be covered by drywall and no longer exposed.

In a newly framed house the wires will be covered up and protected. They will be covered by drywall and no longer exposed.

Ah, 10-4

This is more or less the same. The walls are covered (lath/plaster) and once the wiring is done, the attic floor will be decked (which will then cover the exposed wires)

Got it.

Unless you are running 20 amp circuits you don't need 12/2, but it certainly won't hurt. Just make sure you use 15 amp breakers and 15 amp recepticles. Can't use 20 amp breakers, 12/2, all wired to 15 amp recepticles.

Zero need for J boxes Kurt, and frankly the fewer wire-nutted connections the better, especially since the attic gets hot. I'd run a feed from the sub into the attic, drop it into the wall to your box, then back up and over to the next. So on and so on. Don't use the speed wiring on the recepticle, use the screw terminals on the side for all connections.

Ballon framed...lol, old houses can be such fun.

Dan

I'm using the 12 for a cpl reasons. 1, I figure it'll be good for down the road should I or the next owners need it, and 2, I've got 500 ft of it from a different project ;)

Thanks for the advice everyone. Once I get that wire chase from the basement in, I'll be on my way

I'm using the 12 for a cpl reasons. 1, I figure it'll be good for down the road should I or the next owners need it, and 2, I've got 500 ft of it from a different project ;)

Thanks for the advice everyone. Once I get that wire chase from the basement in, I'll be on my way

Might want to check your local regulations. You may need a separate can, frame, chassis ground from your new subpanel case (frame) to another point. That point might be your existing main service panel or perhaps an outside ground.

Might want to check your local regulations. You may need a separate can, frame, chassis ground from your new subpanel case (frame) to another point. That point might be your existing main service panel or perhaps an outside ground.

Will do, thanks

Like to add my 2 cents worth :)

I agree with John, no sense in running any extra not needed wire, just take the shortest path.
No electriction is ever going to make extra work and expense by running extra wire when it's not needed.
But then using #12 wire on a 15 amp circuit is also just more unnecessary work and expense.
12 gauge is harder to work with and not needed but having said that, you're the one doing it and paying for it and it won't hurt anything.

Your question of how to route the wire really has no bearing on calculationg the load of a branch circuit, hopefully you know what you're doing and how to do it all according to the code.

couple of questions;
A couple of things (such as calling a junction box a "gang box") makes me curious, are you doing all this electrical work yourself?

You do know that you need 4 conductors feeding a sub panel with the neutral and ground conductors kept seperated, right?

Also you do know that 15 and 20 amp, single phase outlets in bedrooms must be AFCI type, right?

Might want to check with your local building codes official office about NM inside walls, I think maybe some cities require conduit.
Around here conduit is only required when wiring is exposed to physical damage.

Have fun but be safe.


{edit} I opened this up then had to go limp one of the company trucks home with a bad front wheel bearing and see that there are more replies now. :o
Sounds like Dan and John have you on the right track.
But anyway I just wanted to add an interesing related link to my post.

http://www.local6.com/money/7302637/detail.html

#12 wire also changes the kind of outlets you can use. You can't buy the bulk packaged ones. You have to buy the more expensive ones or use the screw terminals on the sides of the outlets instead of the handy push in connections on the backs of the outlets.

#12 wire also changes the kind of outlets you can use. You can't buy the bulk packaged ones. You have to buy the more expensive ones or use the screw terminals on the sides of the outlets instead of the handy push in connections on the backs of the outlets.

Home Depot carries the side screw ones for about 50 cents or so. I always have wrapped wires under screws. Sort of a peace of mind thing because copper won't loosen under a tightened screw head. Just never trusted those spring clips but guys wire with them everyday.

Home Depot carries the side screw ones for about 50 cents or so. I always have wrapped wires under screws. Sort of a peace of mind thing because copper won't loosen under a tightened screw head. Just never trusted those spring clips but guys wire with them everyday.

Absolutely John. Just thought I'd mention it so it didn't come as a surprise like it did for me.

couple of questions;
A couple of things (such as calling a junction box a "gang box") makes me curious, are you doing all this electrical work yourself?

Yes, but before I throw the switch, a neighbor who's a 'real' electrician is coming over to inspect the work

You do know that you need 4 conductors feeding a sub panel with the neutral and ground conductors kept seperated, right?

Also you do know that 15 and 20 amp, single phase outlets in bedrooms must be AFCI type, right?

Might want to check with your local building codes official office about NM inside walls, I think maybe some cities require conduit.

yup, yup, and will do. GOnna call the inspector later today or tomorrow. I'm a week or 2 away from running actual wire, but i wanted to get my planning figured out before I startt cutting holes in the walls



http://www.local6.com/money/7302637/detail.html

Wild! Thankfully, thats not a possibility

Burning the house down, on the other hand, is ;)

#12 wire also changes the kind of outlets you can use. You can't buy the bulk packaged ones. You have to buy the more expensive ones or use the screw terminals on the sides of the outlets instead of the handy push in connections on the backs of the outlets.

No problem, we're gonna JBweld the wires on for that added security


(thanks ;) )

No problem, we're gonna JBweld the wires on for that added security


(thanks ;) )

Hope you are kidding. That's an epoxy and epoxy is an insulator that can get between the surfaces. 'sídes inspectors can get a little freaked out when you do something different. A guy I worked with soldered all the wire joints. They made him cut all those joints apart and use a standard wire nut...just like everyone else.

Hope you are kidding.

Really? Cause i thought gluing them all together would work just swell ;)

Yes John, just kidding, but thanks for the tip :thumbsup:

Now, coat hangers are the same as #12, right?

Really? Cause i thought gluing them all together would work just swell ;)

Yes John, just kidding, but thanks for the tip :thumbsup:

Now, coat hangers are the same as #12, right?

Just checking, nothing surprises me anymore. Just last month I saw a garage with lampcord, the stuff used on table lamps, tacked down a garage wall to a box. Heck an extention cord would have been better.
Think my all time favorite was a line strung between a garage and an out building. Wooden crosses were strapped to the top of clothes line poles with plumbers tape. The lines were nailed on the crosses and the clothes line was in use with clothes hanging. I'm sure others have seen worse.

I love those back stab recepts, made a lot of money over the years from the wires not making contact after a few years of service.

The ones that have a screw locking the wire in the hole are OK, it's just the spring loaded "push in" ones that suck.

Be sure and wrap the coat hanger wire with some cheap tape if it's on the hot side.
:)

You had to know I was going to chime in here, right Kurt?

First off, lots of good advice for you to chew on so far.

Second, you're in WI, arc fault breakers are not required here. NEC requires them, WI suppliment over rules and says not.

Third, a 15 amp recepticle is fine with 20 amps and is not a code violation. Their is an exception in the NEC for that very thing.

You don't want to use the stabs on the back of a recepticle anyways. I have wired hundreds of houses in my years, and the stabs have proven to be untrustworthy and just plain dangerous in some cases.

Also, if you can't find free help, let me know. I may just be up for a weekend ride. I would be willing to strap the tools on once again (if my toolbelt still fits, lots of seat time the last couple years:D ).

Also, feel free to give me a call anytime you need. I am pretty much back in the swing of things again. I will pm you, my cell number changed and the one you have is no good anymore.

If you have any other questions or need some help, just ask. Although I have to work the local home show next weekend, hoping to get a couple sales out of it at least. I am available any other time.

Jeff

LVP chiming in here (low-voltage puke)....

Don't forget about:
Telephone
CAT 5 (LAN cabling)
Coax - cable/antenna feeds
Fire alarm/smokes - hardwired (possible insurance bonus)

:thumbsup:

LVP chiming in here (low-voltage puke)....

Don't forget about:
Telephone
CAT 5 (LAN cabling)
Coax - cable/antenna feeds
Fire alarm/smokes - hardwired (possible insurance bonus)

:thumbsup:

Thanks!

Already planned on CATV/Phone, and ham radio coax. Have a wireless setup so I think I'll pass on Cat5. Considered the fire alarm idea but never looked into it.

Got the wire chases in this weekend. 5 runs of 3/4 inch conduit. It'll be tight for the #6 wire but wall space was -really- tight at one spot and I don't think 1" pipe would fit. As it is, I'll have to cove out the backside of some trim to get it back over the hole in the wall between the 1st & 2mnd floor. Only need 3 of the 5 runs, so I've got space to grow in the future

They make wire pulling lube. Works great when you have a large load and a small hole.

Considered the fire alarm idea but never looked into it.
May wanna reconsider it Kurt. Round these parts code nowadays require SD's in each sleeping area (room) as well as the usual places (hallways, etc) for new construction. And they need to be hard wired and inter-connected.

The interconnect is soooo logical. If a SD went off in the basement of my home in the middle of the night I'd never hear it while asleep in my bed. So, while I was building out my basement, I ran a dedicated 14/3 for interconnected SD's in the basement and to replace the existing SD's on the upper levels, even though I was not required to replace the existing units. I wanted to wire them into a circuit that carried some frequently used lights - like hallway lights, so I would know if those weren't working then the SD's weren't either but the inspector wouldn't allow it so SD's I used also have battery back up.

Dan

The interconnect is soooo logical. If a SD went off in the basement of my home in the middle of the night I'd never hear it while asleep in my bed. So, while I was building out my basement, I ran a dedicated 14/3 for interconnected SD's.

Dan

What brand/model did you use? Does it run off 110?

Don't recall off the top of me head, but I purchased them from one of the big box stores. I can check this evening it you'd like me to.

Dan

Don't recall off the top of me head, but I purchased them from one of the big box stores. I can check this evening it you'd like me to.

Dan

If you could, that would be great.

I take it they wire in like anything else? No special boxes/tools/etc needed?

Do they have battery backup? What happens if the power goes out?

They are 120v and use a standard 9v battery. No special anything - simply use a standard 4" ceiling box. Pretty certain mine chirp annoyingly once every few minutes when the power is out but you can silence them. Cool thing is if you silence one they call go mute since they are interconnected.

Do put one in your equipment room. Don't put one in the kitchen. You can even purchase a carbon monoxide detector that you can interconnect with the SD's. Mount that one low.

The updated SD system made my wife VERY happy.

I'll look for the brand/model this evening.

Dan

Thanks! Adding the wires for that will be pretty simple with everything else I'm doing.

To comment on John's reply - cable lube - available at most commercial electric suppliers, and maybe Home Depot or Menards.

By all means if you're getting towards maximum fill on a conduit, pick up a quart squeeze bottle of the stuff. It REALLY makes the pull much easier, and prevents stress & breakage on the conductors.

Word of warning - stay away from the "Yellow" crap. It works, is slippery'er than snot on a doorknob, but... after 5 or so years it turns into "wire glue", not lube - effectively locking the cable in the pipe.

Get the clear stuff. Think of it as the "Party Size" K-Y for wire pulling, and use it liberally.

Hey Kurt,

The SD's I used, all 6, are Kidde brand, model # 1276. There are two common detection methods, Ionization and Photoelectric. Both methods have their pros and cons but if remember correctly from the research I did PE's are more prone to false alarms.

Here's a link. http://www.kiddeus.com/AC+Smoke+Alarm+Catalog.shtml
Many to choose from - select what best fits your needs. There are lots of choices. Also consider other brands; First Alert, Firex (sp?).

Dan

Dan/John - thanks. I'll be looking into both this weekend

I'll chime in here again. I'm currently working for a big commercial fire alarm outfit in the Twin Cities, and we're changing out a LOT of Ion detectors - too many falses.

All are being exchanged for Photo heads. They seem to be more tolerant of dust and "nuisance" airborne contaminants. There are also combo heads that use both technologies, and cross-check each 1/2 before generating an alarm.

Just my opinion, but every install I've done for the last 10 months has used Photo heads exclusively.

Just my opinion, but every install I've done for the last 10 months has used Photo heads exclusively.

Thanks for the tip

Are there any heads which also do CO detection?

Excellent stuff John, may have to consider swapping my ionization units for PE's. Again though, from what I read - or at least what I think I read, PE's were more sensitive because they look for dust/particulates, thus triggering more falses in those conditions.

Should note that in the 6 month's that mine have been up and running, they have never produced a false alarm.

What I really wanted was everything in one unit; Ion, PE, hard wired, battery back up, interconnected, and an emergency light that stayed on (no strobes). Just couldn't find such an animal.

I don't remember seeing any that did CO detection along with fire detection, but then again I wasn't looking. Keep in mind, though, that CO detectors really should be mounted lower than fire.

Dan