I called my local PPG paint dealer and asked if they could mix me the Midnight Bronze, code 68, for my 72. They said they only have the formula in th Omni line, which is PPG economy line. He doesn't know why that is, but he did say if I bring in an original piece of the car in that color they should be able to match it and I can use any PPG line. Has anyone gone through this before? I'm not sure I trust the matching part.

Thanks!
Mike

The spectrophotometer IS NOT a 100% match to any color, sorry. What the thing does is compare your color to the thousands of colors in the color library and picks one or two that come close. It will never work if the paint is dull, must be glossy.

Have them scan the paint mix up a pint of paint and spray some of the paint. This will tell you how close it is and if tinting will be needed, which you will probably need to do. When tinting KEEP TRACK of what you use and how much, also stay within the formula never use a tint outside the formula. Doing so can lead to memuluarim(sp?) which is paint looking like different colors under different light sources.

The machine is NOT dead on but handy, worth a shot...Eric

Something I just thought of, have you tried talking with Dupont? Dupont has a machine like this also. The nice thing about dupont's machine is that it contains more photoeyes that scan the color from different angle making for a better match. last I knew the PPG machine called the Prophet contained only 2 eyes, dupont contained 4 eyes. PPG was supposed to release a newer version that had 5 eyes but yet to see one. I believe the dupont machine is the BETTER of the two and am a PPG fan

You should be able to get that color made up in Glasurit 22,which is single stage urethane.

I went through this a few times. Give the camera a shot and compare the results of the chip it brings up to the color your after. I was painting a 71 chevelle that ugly green metallic and i couldn't get it mixed in the brand i wanted.So i looked through the newer chips and lo and behold i come across a VW/audi color that was a DEAD and i mean dead on to the original GM color,flake and all. So maybe look at some newer colors for a close match,no ones ever going to know if its a hair light or dark,unless you park next to another one at a show,then just tell the guy his car is the wrong shade and yours is right. tongue.gif

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. The fender does have the original Midnight Bronze color that is still very shiny. They said I could bring that in to match. If the match isn't what I like I will give Dupont a try. I'm glad i checked about the paint before I shot any primer, so I stick with the same brand.

Mike

Originally posted by sevt_chevelle:
also stay within the formula never use a tint outside the formula. Doing so can lead to memuluarim(sp?) which is paint looking like different colors under different light sources.

That is called "Metaborizum" (Sp?) And staying within the formula does not guarantee you won't have it. If it is a different brand paint it is going to have a different metaborizum. It is caused by the fact that each toner is made up of different pigment colors. When a color is matched at PPG, DuPOnt or what ever it is matched by eye, just as you would match a color in your shop. They will "create" this match using the toners they have. If the toner bank is PPG the tech matching the color would of course be using different "colors" than a tech matching with DuPont toners. After all, the toners aren't enterchangable between brands, they are different.

No company has "real" matches to your old colors.

ALL (ok there are some real popluar colors that they hand matched because of special orders) the older colors these companies have are computer crossed over from the old Lacquer or Enamel formulas. They couldn't possibly invest the money it would take to have them hand matched. That is why unless there was a specific color that was hand matched for some reason, your old colors are simply not going to match if you have them just mix it up.

Let me make this clearer. PPG, DuPont and all the others are spending MILLIONS of dollars matching each new years colors that come out. In 2004 there will be a few hundred new colors in all the car lines. THOSE are thier bread and butter. Our old GM colors from the 60's are not worth a dime to them. Along with the HUNDREDS of new colors there will be as many as 80 or more alternates for EACH color they have to categorize. After they categorize them, they make alternate formulas for as many categories as makes sense. They have labs full of color techs who spend day in and day out matching these NEW colors. So you see the color labs are WAY too busy on their core customer the collision industry to be matching colors on 40 year old cars.

The colors PPG, DuPont and the like have for our old cars were simply computer crossed over from old formulas. They are NOT very close by any means. For completes, they are close enough in most cases.

As I said in my "Basics of Basics" to choosing a color and buying your paint. NEVER buy all your paint until you have bought a pint and sprayed it out on a large panel and made sure it is the color you want.

Eric, Brian, the word you are looking for is metamerism. This is the result of the color reflectance curve of the standard crossing the color reflectance curve of the match. The result is that colors that match under one light source such as cool white fluorescence will not match under different light sources such as D65 or incandescence.

Regards, Kevin

Right Kevin,I was a color matcher for 6 years, you need to check your color where the car is most going to be seen.If it is just a show car look at it under incandescent or flourescent,if it's a driver look at it out in the sun.This goes for the ladies too when trying to match shoes and etc.,anything can be metameric(different color under different lights).Even though I have so called daylight bulbs in my booth,I have run across a few colors that look different outside,maybe these colors were slightly metemaric from Standox and it looked good in the booth but not as good outside.
A spectophotometer is a good starting point but have never seen a so called perfect match.
All paint companies mix colors by weight so if the guy before you mixed paint without mixing the colors it throws off the strength of that tint,and in doing so the rest of the colors after using that tint.Always put new tints on the shaker and then on the machine for at least 15 minutes to be sure it is mixed properly. Mike

Man, all this talk of metamerism only breeds confusion. It is adding WAY too much to think about when simply matching your original color.
If you have your color sprayed out and you can take a good look at it OUTSIDE where the car is usually seen, that is all you need. It only really comes into play when you actually matching the color. I you to try to match a color inside your spray booth for example, the color would most likely not match when you got it out in the sun.

"Color" is reflected light. So if your lights contain a certain light, the paint can absorb it or reflect it in different ways. If the red toner for example (any color toner could be involved) in your paint has different core colors in it it may absorb or reflect the color in the light differently than another "same color".

This is really only something you would need to worry about IF the color's were to be seen together. If you are painting a car complete, it really doesn't matter. At the very least, you have not control over what your color is going to look like in EVERY form of light. Because you don't have that control, this talk of metamerism is unnessisary.

But Martin I read that stuff in a BOOK!!! LOL
Mike :D Metaborizm, Nuclear science, man your outta my league, bein a bodyman when is the last time you actually held a spray gun or had to match a color? Seems there is no reason to post in this forum because Martin will be along to post correct answer and shoot the rest of us down,as usual. Mike

Originally posted by 69ssmike:
But Martin I read that stuff in a BOOK!!! LOL
Mike :D smile.gif Far be it from me to tell someone NOT to get educated in a subject. I started reading up on welding in a college text book. While studying the metalurgy I end up getting into nuclear science!!

If you have the drive to learn it, by all means do it. As long as we keep our perspective. smile.gif

Brian, You make a very valid point about the match. It doesn't matter how you get there as long the colors match in the light the vehicle is in. Metamerism is just a part of color science. There are many ways to achieve a color match. Metamerism usually results when colors are matched using different pigment systems. There are many classes of pigments out there, and if you try to match an inorganic pigment system (lead chromates or cadmium sulfides) with organic pigments (disazos, isoquinolines)the match will be metameric.

I don't know much about painting, but I sure know pigments and color science ;)

Regards, Kevin

Kevin, I know red oxide shows more in daylight while a pigment called lithium red showed more in flourescent is this a difference in pigments? Also if a green was made with blue and yellow it would be dirty in incadescent,if it was made with green it showed a bright green in incadescent. Is this because of different kind of pigments also?
I matched colors for years and knew how they worked, just didn't know why.
I used to match all those colors you see in chip books with nitrocelulose laqcuers, lipstick, toilet seats,fabrics and just about everything else that came in different colors.

Mike, what exactly did I say that "shot you down"?

Mike72ss started this tread asking about getting the "right" color for his Chevelle
and all of a sudden the whole discussion is about a subject that really has no place in the discussion, Metaborism. Hell, only about 10% of painters in the whole darn country even know the word! They know the effects, I did for the MANY years I matched colors every day. I didn't know squat about the word, but I knew you had to match the color out in the daylight or you were screwed.

I was simply putting things back into perspective. If CLARIFYING something makes you feel "shot down" I am sorry.

How often do I match colors, NEVER. Haven't matched a color for the last three years. And your point? I haven't rode a wheelie on a bike down the street in ten years but give me the bike and I will do it. I haven't boxed in five years but give me a ring and an opponent and I will do that too.

There is no reason to get bent out of shape. I have said it a thousand times and I will say it again. I hardly ever make a comment directed toward one person. Most of my posts are far from personal. I know that each of these threads with two or three posters are READ by MANY readers. I know that some of these treads may be read by HUNDREDS of people. People who don't like to post. Or it will be read in the coming months long after you have forgotten I "shot you down" there will be some new comer to the site that will looking for answers.
A simple question about how to get the correct color for Mikes 72 Chevelle shouldn't evolve into a week long color adjustment course from one of the paint manufactures. That is all I am saying.

If you are matching colors everyday, maybe you could use my "Basics of Basics" to color fomulation. smile.gif
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>

Formula formulation “Basics of Basics”

While tinting a color you can easily make a formula so in the future you and make more. Nothing is worse than running out of a matched color with no idea how you arrived at the color!

Lets start with the basic way to store create a formula while matching a color. First off have a calculator and a note pad and paper ready. Let’s say we need about a pint and a half of paint to the job. Take the mixed color using a calculator divide it up into “parts”. To make this simple we’ll make the paint 600 grams and divide it into six equal parts of 100 grams. I just made the number up of course, it doesn’t matter what number you use and you will find that more or less will suit you fine. Put an empty mixing cup on the scale and zero the scale so you and measure just the amount of paint. Pour 100 grams in leaving 500 grams in the original container. Reduce the 100 grams that you have poured off as per the tech sheet instructions and spray out a sample on a sprayout card. Let’s say that it doesn’t match and needs a little red toner. Pour this reduced paint into another cup or can and set aside. Put another new cup on the scale and zero it. Pour 100 grams out of the 500 left into the cup on the scale. Add the desired amount of red toner into the cup and record the toner number and amount on your note pad. We will say 10 grams was added this time.
Stir it up (or shake it if a dry pearl was added), reduce it and spray out another sample. You find that it still needs a little more red. Pour it into the container with the first sprayed sample and set aside.

Put another clean cup on the scale and zero it. Pour another 100 gram “part” out of the 400 left into the cup. Add the 10 grams red toner as before and then add the extra amount you want this time it will be 5 grams more. RECORD THIS on your note pad. Stir it up the mixture, reduce it and spray it out, it MATCHES!

Now you have 300 grams left (three “parts” of your original six). In the ONE 100 gram part that you matched you added 15 grams of the red toner, right? So multiply the 15 times the mount of 100 gram “parts” you have left, which is three and you have 45.
Put your 300 grams left on the scale and zero it, add the 45 grams of the red toner. You now have 345 grams of matched color, plus the 115 from the last spray out.

Use the saved bad matches to apply as your first coat and use the matched color as your finish and blend if needed.

By the way, this one went perfect. If we had messed up and “over shot” with the red toner, we would have just go on the next 100 gram part and try again.

But what if you need more color? Just make as many “parts” as you need. If a pint was four parts (the half pint was six) then 16 100 gram “parts” would be two quarts. So make up two quarts of the original color and add 16 15 gram “parts” of red toner, which would be 240 grams. Add that to the two quarts of original color and you have a little over two quarts of matched color.

So now we go onto if you want to make an actual formula.

If you have a computer formula retrieval you will see two different “recipes” for the color. One is “cumulative and the other “non-cumulative”. The cumulative is with the toners all in a row and you add one after another with the amount of grams growing from one toner to the next because all of the previous toner amounts are included in the last number poured. Non-cumulative is when the toners are all in a row and the grams listed after each toner is the actual amount in the formula.

If you have the non-cumulative it is easy to add the amount of toner you added to match the color to the same toner in the formula. You then simply add them together into cumulative form and you now have your formula. You can divide it or add it into any amount you want.

If you don’t have the non-cumulative, you need to subtract each toner amount from the previous about to get the non-cumulative amounts.

If you REALLY want to make formulas and change sizes and so on, let me know and I can cover that.

Now that would work great if all cars with the same paint code were actually the same color,thanks for the lesson though. graemlins/beers.gif

You are right Mike you wouldn't commonly use this procedure in a collision shop daily. But I have, instead of tinting a pint and a half of color for a few panels, instead tint a tenth of that and then convert it up to the amount you need.

This is however exactly how the color would be matched for Mikes Chevelle. You would tint a pint or so to match the color that Mike has on his fender. Spray it out and tint until you had the color. Then convert it up to a gallon or what ever he wants. So it is very useful. There are plenty of guys who would tint the whole gallon of color but I don't have the confidence for that. A pint is as far as I go after starting to do it as I laid out here.

Listen Mike, if I somehow "shot you down" I am sorry. We are all in a big garage bsing here on the web. If I were to say something similar to you in my garage you would come back with something and then I would clarify why I said it and it would all be over in seconds. Here on the forums we sit and read the words over and over and put all kinds of "meaning" in them that the writer likely didn't mean. We then stew on them for an hour or two, or even the whole work day. Then come back with some planned attack to tell the guy off or show how smart we are. I do it and I am sure most of us do.

Again, I'm sorry if I said anything that was out of line. I know there are lots of things I have said to people in person that I wish I could pull back into my mouth as it flew out! smile.gif

Thanks Martin no problem and the same goes here,wish i coulda used that procedure when I tinted 2,000 gallon tanks of white that I made a little too dark!!Ended up with 4,000 gallons :D
Mike

Cool Mike, graemlins/beers.gif . Now, where in the living hell did you mix 2000 gallons of color??????
(or I guess, 4,000 gallons smile.gif )

GEEZ. now I wish I never mentioned such a word. Excuse me while I slowly back away from the computer and face the corner and think about what I said smile.gif

Worked as a mixer and matcher at Benjamin Moore and about 3 months at PPG,wish I didn't screw up the PPG job.Sat in the Lab and never got paint on my hands!!That was back in my younger days and failed a drug test!! I seen guys mess up batches so bad at PPG they had to be burned.Couple thousand gallons of auto paint up the chimney!! No wonder auto paint is so expensive!! Still have a couple buddies that still work there though. Mike

Really cool paint shading dissertation, do you want a job? "toner" is pigment dispersion, called tint base. If tint strength is not tightly controlled color shading becomes skilled art, especially on a "one off" refinish job. Nice to meet you.

that's why I am going with Chrysler Flame Red...if I get it wrecked....just about anybody can match it to fix it...

smile.gif

I have never painted.........but I have owned and restored over 75 vintage vehicles since 1969. My old painter, now retired, and I use to take headlight doors to Betz Paint Shop in Anaheim, CA. They would mix up a pint........we would spray it on a flat piece of metal or fiberglass (for a Corvette) and then in the sunlight see if it matched the cars original paint that we were redoing. If OK, we would order the gallons needed to do the job.

I know that todays paint is completly different. I am very tired seeing base coat /clear coat on nice restored cars that is not even the correct color. 65 Nassau blue, 67 Marina blue come to mind. So what I am reading here is that with the 'old fashion' match process, we hopefully can get a nice color match, correct??????

Is lacquer still available for the 100 point show car? I hear that AQMD will issue a 'restoration' licence in California for legal lacquer repaints. True????

And finally, if the correct color is available, how can one get a paint job that will replicate the old lacquer in looks for the 100 point show car?

Thanks in advance.
Jim

Jim, honestly the last time I sprayed a "100 point show car" or at least I hoped it would be 100 point was my brothers '65 Gran Sport Conv. (one of 498 with a four speed and who knows how many four speeds with a/c, and power windows) I did so with SS acrylic enamel.

Before that it was early Fords when I worked at a full on resto shop back in the seventies. The funny thing is, they were originally enamel!
Lacquer is still very legal in some part of California. Not all Calif is under the strick VOC rules of say, San Fran or LA counties. Most of California is under the "National Rule" that 90 percent of the country is under. There lacquer is legal for "restorations of cars originally shot in lacquer".

Replicate original lacquer, Jim, I just don't know. You can get close with SS or even bc/cc if you don't apply much clear but it still is "thicker" looking.

Honestly, if you are not REALLLY showing your car and your car is rare enough to warrant a "100 point" job, then by all means do it. But most super show cars today are bc/cc because quite frankly it is superior. It is easier to apply, and a better end product. It is a win win.

Thanks MartinSR,

Nice to know that quality can still be done with some degree of orginiality. I just found a glacier gray 65 SS and it deserves to go back original. It has it's original 327/300hp motor, PG,PB,PS and air conditioning, and rare power windows.

The car is a Joplin, Missori product so has some rust issues in the trunk. What do you think about restoring it to factory original? And the glacier gray paint is very close to 67 Corvette Elkhart blue from what I hear and is considered very rare.

The older metalics are not an easy match with the concept, deltron and global ppg paints, this is because the mixing tints used in these colors are only available within the omni line. the omni line still uses the old style aluminum for the metalic colors while the others use lenticular metalics. Also some of the color tints are different especially reds greens and browns. This was told to me by my ppg rep when we had trouble matching a metalic on the last 69 model car I shot. Per his advice I shot the car with omni base and used Global 893 clear without any problems. Shoot the base and allow it to flash for a few hours followed up with 895 midcoat clear then the topcoat clear. The car looks like a million bucks and has the right metalic look.

You are right Bob, I a hadn't thought about that. All the late formulas use "mica" basically a pearl as the metallic. It is fine, like most the lacquer colors from the sixties but not the exact same look.

Thanks for the update Bob. If I get this car or another, I will ask for your help once the color issue comes up.

How rare is the code 68 Midnight Bronze Metallic? I don't see it in any previous years. I'll be facing the same thing when I'm done with my project.
http://jstewart.inebraska.com/chevelle.htm

Now that global PPG has been brought up , i am currently using it to paint my shadow gray 70 ss chevelle . I am now on my second repaint & going to start sanding again for my third . Every time i have shot it so far , it " corn rows " & is very blotchy . Doesn't seem to matter what air pressure , distance , pattern etc. Can't get rid of it . Have used three different guns , a sata 2000 , sata 90 & an iwata & still the same thing !? All have had 1.4 tips . Just so i didn't go crazy & burn the whole shop down , i shot an old hood i had laying around with some of my left over dupont chromabase ( a close gray color but a newer car ) & i didn't have the same problem with it . Should i go & get another 700 dollars of paint from dupont or spend another 700 with global ?

PPG's Global basecoat can be very challenging to apply if it is a high metalic color. When I went to the Global school I was taught to apply the base wet, but we were spraying at 95 degrees in a quality booth with excellent airflow. The school had the solvent, temp, humidity and airflow nailed down so the technicians couldn't have any problems with application. But in a real world situation where nothing is controling the spray environment technicians have major problems with the high metalic global colors. I've seen severe cases of tiger striping and mottling with the Global. I prefer the DBC system for my metalic colors but occasionally use the Global. The last awardwinning paint job I did was on a Yenko 69 Camaro, PPG donated all the materials for this project. The trick to applying this material is to put medium wet coats untill full coverage is reached then apply three mist coats---similar in proceedure to spraying older single stage metalic enamels minus the tack coat. On the mist coats I usually hold the gun about 16-20 inches away walking the entire vehicle length and spraying the hood roof and trunk with alternating directions length and width. Allow the base to breathe for 2hr's minumim then apply your clear, I prefer the 893 clear but the 894 is a little higher quality and more suited to heated spraying environments. Also 895 midcoat clear can be applied over the mistcoats to help lock the metalics prior to clear application but I haven't needed to do this with the way I apply the product. Good luck, if you can master this system you can spray anything graemlins/thumbsup.gif

The Dupont Chromabase and Chroma Premier in my opinion are the easiest basecoats to apply, I used these products daily for 4years in a collision shop prior to the Global switch and I know first hand what you are experiencing. The value shade system in the Dupont line rocks. I did a 32Ford in 2001 with Dupont using Chroma Premier sealer, chroma base, and V7500s. The color was a Mercedees Silver and it took a Dupont National top gun award---------I do like Dupont products but there is no paint rep support in my area and PPG takes care of me well.

Hey baddbob, you would not have been standing in the shadows when i painted my car was you :rolleyes: ? The tiger stripes & mottling is the exact problems i am having . Didn't put on the medium wet coats ( would stripe even at a distance & dusting car ) but did run the full length of car & alternating patterns & still could not cover mottling . Also did not wait the 2 hours for dry time , not sure if that would have made my difference , don't think i will find out now though , will probably go & spend my next 700 at the dupont store :D . Now the question is will the ppg boys admit they have a problem & at least cut me a small check of what i have spent or just tell me to get screwed ? We'll see . Thanks for your input on my problems !