This goes hand in hand with the front suspension topic, but I think it deserves its own thread. What are some of your ideas and implementations out there for steering? For the sake of argument, let's leave bump steer out of this one, as it's been discussed at length in the suspension topic :).

The stock steering on a chevelle is woefully inadequate, full of slop and with a poor turning radius. What would it take to get nice tight, accurate steering with a good turn radius?

My own scenario: I've got all new stock-style tie rods, centerlink, idler arm. I bought a NAPA 'fast ratio' PS box. Stock steering shaft and wheel, still use the stock style rag joint. It is much improved from where I started, but it still leaves alot to be desired. While the fast ratio box helps alot on the backroads, it reduced my turning radius somewhat. The steering still feels a bit 'loose' and vague compared to a new vehicle. Even my Colorado pickup has a better steering feel. In actuality the car corners pretty damn well for a big old yacht, but the steering feel doesn't inspire confidence to push it. I'd like for the steering to have more effort (less assist), have a better turn ratio, and a nice 'tight' feel.

Things I've considered: Researching how the NASCAR boys do it and what parts they use, since they use the same recirculating ball technology with tie rods and centerlinks. They're obviously getting some very high performance steering out of the same old school setup, so there must be a way to do it. I'm thinking the biggest improvement would take place with the steering box itself. Next would be a u-joint style steering shaft instead of the old rag joint.
Then perhaps a more rigid linkage, maybe utilizing heim joints instead of the conventional ball joints? Finally, a thicker steering wheel than the stock one would probably help with the 'feel' and psychological aspect of it.

Post up! What are your ideas? :)

Two of the biggest improvements I have found in steering feel came from putting new bearings in the steering column and also removing the stock sloppy rag joint at the box and pot-joint at the steering column and replacing them with needle bearing u-joints from Flaming River. A important piece of info here is once you remove the factory pot-joint at the steering column you've just removed the ability for the steering linkage to absorb frame flex, so if you go u-joints you need to use a slip/collapsible steering shaft. Flaming River has those too.

Right now I'm running a new 600 series steering box from DSE with all new components from the NAPA premium line (drag link, idler arm, tie rods) and I've ditched the factory "split-adjusters" on the tie-rods for solid steel pieces from Global West. The setup is almost totally slop-free and the feeling and feedback is excellent.

The steering box (and pump) will make or break the setup. Buying a blueprinted steering box from a good vendor like DSE or even better a steering box built Lee Mfg (they're awesome) ensures you'll get the best feel; at the most basic level they hand-fit the balls to the sector to mesh tightly (reduces lash) and they test the torsion bar in the assist portion to give you even amounts of assist in each direction (and will tailor the torsion bar to your amount of assist desired.) You won't get this with a mass-produced (or mass-remanufactured) steering box over the counter. AGR builds a good box too (definately better than over the counter) but not up to the likes of Lee.

Keep in mind Lee Mfg. is the major NASCAR supplier and developed the 600-series box as a modern replacement for them as the supply of good 800 series cores is drying up.

The 600 box will save you about 7lbs, too.

Also, keep in mind most fast-ratio boxes are sourced from F-bodies. F-bodies have longer output and idler arms and need less steering box throw, so they have internal stops in the box to reduce the box throw. Put an F-body box on an A-body and bye-bye u-turns. You need to either disassemble the box and remove the internal stops (a fairly easy task actually) or have a box built without internal stops that has the proper operating angle for an A-body application.

Troy

Troy-

We are a Lee Mfg dealer, and his new 670 box is the best I've ever driven, hands down. We put a DSE 600 box on a client's car, and while it was a signifcant improvement, the Lee 670 box felt even better. Lee goes through every box he sells, blue prints them, dynos them, and re-valves them to feel exactly like the rack and pinion steering racks found on modern cars.

I agree with the ditching of the rag joint for a U joint on the shaft. It makes the input that much better.

Tyler

Troy-

We are a Lee Mfg dealer, and his new 670 box is the best I've ever driven, hands down. We put a DSE 600 box on a client's car, and while it was a signifcant improvement, the Lee 670 box felt even better. Lee goes through every box he sells, blue prints them, dynos them, and re-valves them to feel exactly like the rack and pinion steering racks found on modern cars.

I agree with the ditching of the rag joint for a U joint on the shaft. It makes the input that much better.

Tyler

Yeah, I found out about Lee's (and your collaboration) box about 2 months after buying my DSE box. My old fast ratio 800 box was totally worn on the output shaft and very sloppy/leaky and I needed a replacement ASAP.

The DSE box is lightyears ahead of my fast ratio 800 box (pulled off an IROC) and feels excellent but I really want to try one of the Lee pieces. I know DSE does blueprinting and torsion bar tuning on their boxes but I'm sure Lee has some tricks up his sleeve... he is the recognized expert in the arena and he developed the darn thing.

Aren't there better "rag" joints? Just trying to confirm a suspicion/impression I have. I picked up a 73 Z-28 fast ratio steering box and the rag joint seemed as though it was reinforced with a steel screen. Kinda hard to imagine any slop in something like that.

Personally I suspect that the single biggest contributor to steering feel on these cars is the torsion rod in the steering gearbox input shaft. Unfortunately I think you cannot get one of these rods seperately, I believe they are built into the shaft.

How much do the Lee boxes run?

Do you guys have any experience with a quick-ratio box out of a '95 Caprice cop-car? What are your thoughts? I have one I plan on using from the donor car my LT1 came from.

Do you guys have any experience with a quick-ratio box out of a '95 Caprice cop-car? What are your thoughts? I have one I plan on using from the donor car my LT1 came from.

I believe the "big car" boxes (i.e. Caprice) while fast ratio use a lower effort spool valve assembly. I'd have to check into it. As far as operating angle, I'm not sure. There is a post somewhere in the brakes and suspension forum from a former Saginaw employee that gave an overview of various boxes, the codes on them, original applications, and output shaft throw. I'll have to search and see if I can find it, good reading.

Also, the factory box won't have any of the "hand tuning" (such as oversize balls, a better hone job, equalized and tested torsion bar and spool valve assembly, etc) that really makes a good steering box shine. Would it be better than a slow ratio stocker? Definately.

When swapping you also need to watch out for the hidden costs: possible input shaft diameter/spline count difference and also hose fitting type (old-style inverted flare or new-style metric & o-ring).

How much do the Lee boxes run?

I'm sure Tyler will correct me if I'm wrong but I think $570 is the magic number.

Troy

I'm sure Tyler will correct me if I'm wrong but I think $570 is the magic number.

Troy

Actually, the 670 box is $515.00

Tyler

When swapping you also need to watch out for the hidden costs: possible input shaft diameter/spline count difference and also hose fitting type (old-style inverted flare or new-style metric & o-ring).The hose-fitting is a benefit in my case, since I'm using the '95 caprice PS pump and hoses.

FWIW, regardless of the box series you run, AFCO and many others sell P/S to AN fittings for a much better P/S hose set-up. They also some nice AN style remote reservoir set-ups with newer style pumps and bracketry.

You can have an AN hose made up for much less money than buying P/S hoses over the counter and they can made to your exact specs for custom routing.

The AN fittings are fine and dandy but remember you MUST use special high-pressure hose on the high side of the system-- either fabric braided or teflon liner / stainless jacket are most common, and they have to be for high pressure hydraulic applications with steel fittings. You'll want a 2500 psi minimum rating. The hose fab is DIY too, piece of cake.

I like the Aeroquip stuff, TFE hose for stainless braiding, AQP for the fabric braiding. The fabric braid hoses are easier to assemble, cheaper, and work great but you may not like the looks.

I can't believe how many cars I see at carshows with STANDARD aluminum AN fittings and hose (rated for usually 300psi) on the high side of the power steering systems. Why none of these people have experienced a catastrophic failure yet is beyond me. I was looking under the hood of just such a car last year when he started it and you could see the hose bulging... I made a quick exit!

You can use standard low pressure rated aluminum AN stuff on the return side though.

Actually, the 670 box is $515.00

Tyler

Ah, a correction in the "right" direction (from a consumer's POV) :)

Troy

The AN fittings are fine and dandy but remember you MUST use special high-pressure hose on the high side of the system-- either fabric braided or teflon liner / stainless jacket are most common, and they have to be for high pressure hydraulic applications with steel fittings. You'll want a 2500 psi minimum rating. The hose fab is DIY too, piece of cake.
Troy
Goes without saying but I’m sure somebody would try it with hose clamps and fuel hose too. We don't even stock a fitting/hose rated below 3000 pounds, most of it is upwards of 5000 pounds. Tractors run pretty high hydraulic pressures.

this is all good stuff, keep it coming :)

Actually, the 670 box is $515.00

Tyler

That's not a bad price at all, considering what you get for your $$$.

Just an FYI. For a '96 Impala SS steering box rebuild, my brother was quoted $220-$300 depending on what modifications you wanted done to the box. Lee's wife also wanted the power steering box to be sent to them. For comparison, I just checked the AC Delco wholesaler here in Fresno and they wanted $285 for a reman '96 Impala SS steering box ( + $60 core).

Just adding pricing info to the thread.

Troy, do you have any part #'s for the Flaming River steering shaft and u-joints? Will the parts you bought fit on a '71? Thanks.

-Alan

T
Troy, do you have any part #'s for the Flaming River steering shaft and u-joints? Will the parts you bought fit on a '71? Thanks.

-Alan

Let's see...

30" slip/collapsible shaft: FR1856-S
http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=221/category_id=202/home_id=85/mode=prod/prd221.htm
(you move the slip portion to the middle of the adjustment range then cut it)

Steering column U-joint: 1"-48 spline to 3/4" DD: FR2512DD
http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=200/category_id=109/home_id=82/mode=prod/prd200.htm
(you can also get non-stainless)

Steering box U-joint (depends on steering box)
For a late model box you'll want the 1"DD to 3/4"-30 spline... can't find the part number for some reason. I know they make it, because I have one. :p

I'd call them... I called them with my info and they knew all the diameters and spline counts without having to put me on hold or search any books/computers. Good people.

Troy

Another option....the famed Jeep Grand Cherokee gear box swap lead me to this. The GC steering shaft is a solid jointed slip shaft with the 3/4 end for the later gear boxes. Simply cutting the end of your column and grinding a "D" into it would make it very easy to install. New they run about 80.00.

I run a Lee box in my '66, it is great. I will be getting one for my '64 when the time comes. Repacking the bearings on the column, oiling everything, and making sure that all your parts are greased up will make an improvement, new centerlink, idler, and tierods as well.

you can do all this to upgrade your steering, but the flex in your tire sidewalls is going to be dramatic, a 45 series z rated tire is going to change steering feel alot over a 60 series s rated tire, remember, the tires are the first thing you "feel" Rob...

you can do all this to upgrade your steering, but the flex in your tire sidewalls is going to be dramatic, a 45 series z rated tire is going to change steering feel alot over a 60 series s rated tire, remember, the tires are the first thing you "feel" Rob...

I don't have that problem... 275/40/17 :D

I think its kind of an assumtion that anyone in this sub-topic (pro-touring) and in this thread (hard core steering) are already tires that have less than a couple inches of sidewall. :p

Actually on my '64 chevelle I am running a 60 series sidewall. I have 40 series on my '66 and have been driving it like that for the better part of a decade, but for this car I wanted to go for a look that will set the car apart from the crowd, this does not mean that I do not want the best handling possible.

Cars are build as a system, and a series of compromises. A different sidewall can be made to work, but it requires you to look at the system as a whole.

Be careful with being so quick to dismiss, or assume.

http://www.hotrodhomepage.com/gallerys/project_malibu/mediafiles/l107.jpg

I love that '64, I've followed the progress of that and your 66 since before I bought the HTH setup. It was part of my inspiration to go the truckarm route :)

That is nice to hear. When I took the '64 on the power tour in '04 it had some tall sidewalls that I borrowed from a friend, and I fell in love with the cload like ride. Basically I am trying to make a car that will be comfortable for a non-stop drive from NY to LA. It is one of my goals before the decade closes to drive a "Cannonball Baker Sea to Shining Sea Memorial Trophy Dash" of my own.

Don't know if you have noticed, but I put a picture of you car up on the Hotrods to Hell site. http://www.hotrodstohell.net/hth_equipped/index.htm

That is nice to hear. When I took the '64 on the power tour in '04 it had some tall sidewalls that I borrowed from a friend, and I fell in love with the cload like ride. Basically I am trying to make a car that will be comfortable for a non-stop drive from NY to LA. It is one of my goals before the decade closes to drive a "Cannonball Baker Sea to Shining Sea Memorial Trophy Dash" of my own.

I have a goal of driving mine cross-country some day too! That's still a good ways off though. I'm just doing good to drive it 90 miles to the drag strip right now :)

Yeah, I saw that ya'll had added a pic there, thanks! :). The car is starting to come around now and perform up to my goals. I hope to get some good updated pics soon, and I'll send them to you.

I'm surprised no one yet has mentioned AGR steering boxes. They provide all new internal components, specific models for your specific application, no loss of turning radius and do not require any adaptors for the hydraulic line fittings. On top of all that, they are very nicely detailed to look more or less like an original. They also offer a fancier version which is more expensive which has a nicer look and a finned billet end plate.

The one I've installed provides a 2.75 turns lock-to-lock, 12:1 steering ratio with a firmer feel (so I'm told, car isn't running yet) to avoid that mushy, disconnected feeling of original style power steering.

OK, 99% of the guys here are running 40 series tires...except of course Geoff.

Be honest now, going to a 40 series 17" wheel/tire combo would not help the handling of your 64? I think we all know it would.

Let's see...

30" slip/collapsible shaft: FR1856-S
http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=221/category_id=202/home_id=85/mode=prod/prd221.htm
(you move the slip portion to the middle of the adjustment range then cut it)

Steering column U-joint: 1"-48 spline to 3/4" DD: FR2512DD
http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=200/category_id=109/home_id=82/mode=prod/prd200.htm
(you can also get non-stainless)

Steering box U-joint (depends on steering box)
For a late model box you'll want the 1"DD to 3/4"-30 spline... can't find the part number for some reason. I know they make it, because I have one. :p

I'd call them... I called them with my info and they knew all the diameters and spline counts without having to put me on hold or search any books/computers. Good people.

Troy

Thanks Troy!

Rich, Troy mentioned AGR in one of the first posts. You provided a detailed explanation of it :)

Rich, Troy mentioned AGR in one of the first posts. You provided a detailed explanation of it :)

I missed that, read through too fast I guess! Concerning the one I've installed, if it works half as good as it looks, it will work great! I had tried the NAPA rebuilt quick ratio box first and promptly returned it and went with the AGR.

Yes it most certainly would help, but the setup that is optimal for handling with 17" wheels is not the same as with 15" wheels. That is the reason that I brought it up.

I just don't want the casual readers that may have less experience with car setup assuming that there is one, set in stone, way to make a car work.

We have to remember that there are many people who will be using the information that we present here to determine purchases for their own cars. I want them to know that there is more then one way to skin the ole' cat.

I missed that, read through too fast I guess! Concerning the one I've installed, if it works half as good as it looks, it will work great! I had tried the NAPA rebuilt quick ratio box first and promptly returned it and went with the AGR.

I'll second the AGR choice... While maybe not as "hardcore" as a Lee box, it DOES have a very stiff torsion bar... As I recall, stiffer than any stock GM box... Very nice road feel... Even with my old tilt steering (eventually, I'll get a new column with the lower U-joints, but thats well down the list of things to do)... Supposedly (from the literature I was looking at when I was deciding), it is totally new (except maybe the box itself).

It does have the older-style hose fittings and old-sized input spline...

Even though my previous box was a quick ratio (79 Trans Am?), and all the suspension was rebuilt, just the addition of the new box made a huge difference in road feel... Very nice and tight (even with the old column)...

Not sure how these are now (from AGR), but mine was under $300 (from Summit, with a sale)... should have been the easiest bolt-in too, except I forget I had previously changed my ragjoint coupler for the older QR box swap (didn't think about that until I was doing the install)... Doh! Just try to find a nice "older" coupler at the wrecking yards these days...

So how "hardcore" is hardcore? The Lee or DSE boxes might be "better" than the AGR, but for the cost differences, you are still running the compromised stock steering linkages...

Well I personally am using a Lee box with the late 70 Trans Am ratio, and Lee built it with the removed stops so no reduction in turning radius. 69Boo307 what are you talking about the a-body having a bad turning radius, these car have one of the best in a GM car, mine damn near turns around in it own lenght (joking of course) but they do have an awesome turning radius stock. The tall spindle and or a box with internal stop screw up the radius.

Sounds like a Lee box, and a new steering shaft setup is in my future sometime

An AGR box can work almost as good as a LEE box. Lee is top notch, I am using his remote style P pump, remote resevoir, and filter, and everything works great. The only problem with AGR is that they are unreliable in a way. Their coating sucks! They start rusting the first week. Second, I have installed like 3 of them, and am getting ready to send the one i have on my car now back. Some of them have a really stiff quick feeling, and then some of them will be "loose". If you can't afford the LEE, the agr can be a good deal.

Cody (Poser)-
The main difference between an AGR box and the one Lee builds for us is that the Lee box starts out as a brand new box, is then rebuilt, blueprinted, coated, dyno'd and re-valved. The AGR box is a rebuilt used box. I'm pretty sure that they don't do 1/5 of the internal work that Tom Lee does.

Tyler

Cody (Poser)-
The main difference between an AGR box and the one Lee builds for us is that the Lee box starts out as a brand new box, is then rebuilt, blueprinted, coated, dyno'd and re-valved. The AGR box is a rebuilt used box. I'm pretty sure that they don't do 1/5 of the internal work that Tom Lee does.

Tyler
Tyler(wannabecarbuilder)

I agree with that, in fact my (now rusty) AGR steering box is being sent back to summit due to it rusting like no other, and not being as "tight" as any of their other boxes. I will be getting a Lees box, i think off hand a 670 or whatever..

I have a question for ATS, if you aren't going to beat Lees pricing and you aren't carrying them in stock. Why should we get one from you guys(not an attack but a chance to sell me on buying one from you guys)?

I've talked to lee for about 3 hours total. That guy just talks and talks and talks.........kinda makes sense, because they lag on getting your stuff done and sent out. Not ridiculous, but its usually about 4-6 weeks to get your parts.

Cody-
There is something called a 'dealer policy' sheet that outlines the regulations that companies put into place to maintain a good working relationship with multiple dealers. I have one for my dealers (Touring classics, Classic Chevy 5 speed, SC&C etc..) that states what you can advertise as a selling price for our products. You cannot go below that number in writing. You can however go below that price at the time of the sale, which is what most of us do. If I advertise my selling price below list, it can cause a 'price war' between dealers of the same product. This happens daily over at LS1Tech.com because most of the vendors over there don't have these policies in place, and they under cut each other to get the sales. For all the companies we are dealers with, we share an industry courtesy of not advertising below list, unless otherwise permitted.
I also have 1 670 box on the shelf ready for sale, and I get them in 4-6 DAYS. One of the advantages of being a Lee dealer is I get priority over some cold caller off the street.
You can call Lee, get a 670 box from them, pay list price, and wait your 4-6 weeks for it to arrive. Or you can call us, get it under list (which I cannot advertise or put in writing) and get it in under 9 days.


Tyler

Cody and TeeToe, stop sniffing markers in your off time and the gold spray paint is not a replacement for morning coffee.

Am I hallucinating (yes, its possible, I fancy a good paste chew now and again) or were you both in agreement from the beginning, yet disagreed?

Go with paste, less potent and you can still function. You wont be crisp....but you can function.....at least to the point where you dont debate folks that hold the same view. :p ;)

Cody (Poser)-
The main difference between an AGR box and the one Lee builds for us is that the Lee box starts out as a brand new box, is then rebuilt, blueprinted, coated, dyno'd and re-valved. The AGR box is a rebuilt used box. I'm pretty sure that they don't do 1/5 of the internal work that Tom Lee does.

Tyler

"Pretty sure"? So in otherwords, you don't really know if AGR does or not... And this is for the Lee box that you sell, not the regular rebuilds that Lee also does (on customer's cores)... You make it sound like the AGR is just a typical "rebuilt used box" (and maybe it truly is), but in my experience in dealing with AGR (and others I know), the AGR was essentially "new" (all new parts), with only the outer case (a non-wear part) being "used". It might not be "blueprinted" as well as the Lee box though...

Not saying that the new "Lee" isn't better, not saying it doesn't have alot more detailed assembly than the AGR (but not saying it does either)... Not trying to say the Lee isn't the best choice if money is no object...
Just trying to clarify things for anyone that may later read this post and might not want to spend the extra $215+ for the Lee box that may not yield any appreciable differences in steering response...


The only problem with AGR is that they are unreliable in a way. Their coating sucks! They start rusting the first week. Second, I have installed like 3 of them, and am getting ready to send the one i have on my car now back. Some of them have a really stiff quick feeling, and then some of them will be "loose". If you can't afford the LEE, the agr can be a good deal.
Aside from Cody, I have never heard anyone have "problems" with the AGR, especially the external coating (I myself have had the AGR for several years, and no rusting). Of course, all companies will have a few "lemons" now and then (or else warrantees wouldn't be needed)...

Tony, I think there was more to the post than just the quality of the rebuilding. Lee is the only steering box provider for Nascar, they think highly enough of his product that they use him exclusively not due to any sort of ruling, just because he happens to be the best. The Lee box discussed here is also the 670 series not the typical 600 series that AGR offers. There are many numerous advantages to the 670 series box that no amount of modifications to the 600 series can equal.

Tony, I think there was more to the post than just the quality of the rebuilding. Lee is the only steering box provider for Nascar, they think highly enough of his product that they use him exclusively not due to any sort of ruling, just because he happens to be the best. The Lee box discussed here is also the 670 series not the typical 600 series that AGR offers. There are many numerous advantages to the 670 series box that no amount of modifications to the 600 series can equal.

Are You sure that Lee is the ONLY supplier for Nascar? Just curious, I couldn't find that info... I know AGR sponsors a few Nextel Cup cars (I realize that doesn't mean they necessarily "use" their parts)...

The "670" was NOT the ONLY Lee box discussed here in this thread (although it was the most discussed). Alan and Q-Ship (and maybe others) also mentioned Lee's rebuilds (maybe he no longer rebuilds customer cores, I don't know)...

I wasn't saying the 670 Lee wasn't a very good box, just basically questioning how much better for the additional price... You implied that the Jeep Grand Cherokee box was an option (top of second page)... Not the best choice, but its an option... IMO, the AGR is better than any "used" Jeep box, but then again, there is also the factor of price... You pay more for the AGR than for a used Jeep... Same goes for the Lee... It might be better, but is it worth the extra $$$?? At what level does it become the choice to make??

Sure, truly "hardcore", the Lee 670 will be the best choice...

How much of a difference will someone 'feel' between the Lee 670 and the AGR? Even on open track day, with "good" spindles (no B-body)? Say something like the ATS AFX spindle with Marcus's arm (we are talking Chevelles here), etc... And all else being equal (same ragjoint/ujoint, same tires, same suspension, same steering linkage). Solely a different steering box... How much steering improvement? Better ratio in the Lee box? tighter?

Will YOU be able to feel the difference? On the street? On the track? I know Dennis has alot of experience on the track, etc...

Will the average Pro-Touring enthusiast be able to tell the difference? Specifically Chevelles with their suspension/stering "quirks"...


Geoff said it well...
We have to remember that there are many people who will be using the information that we present here to determine purchases for their own cars. I want them to know that there is more then one way to skin the ole' cat.

There will undoubtedly be some people that will choose to buy this 670 box, while they might be running the B-body spindles, Poly in the rear stock suspension, or bad column bearings, etc...

I wasn't saying the 670 Lee wasn't better, just basically questioning how much better for the additional price... You, yourself even mentioned the Jeep Grand Cherokee as an option for better steering (top of second page)... Not the best choice, but its an option... IMO, the AGR is better than any "used" Jeep box, but then again, there is also the factor of price... You pay more for the AGR than for a used Jeep... Same goes for the Lee... It might be better, but is it worth the extra $$$?? At what level does it become the choice to make??


I think this is going to be different for different people. some people might spend $1000 to gain a tenth in the 1/4 mile. Most people won't find that worth the money. Road racers probably spend many times that amount to gain a second or two on a road course. If steering feel and performance is a big concern to someone, a couple hundred bucks is absolutely worth it. If you don't care, then don't spend the money. Pretty simple. Both AGR and Lee's have been around long enough, that it should be no problem finding reviews and feedback on both. I'd say if you are questioning it then no, it probably isn't worth the extra money to you. Me, I'd have no qualms plunking down the extra money for the Lee's box.

I think this is going to be different for different people. some people might spend $1000 to gain a tenth in the 1/4 mile. Most people won't find that worth the money. Road racers probably spend many times that amount to gain a second or two on a road course. If steering feel and performance is a big concern to someone, a couple hundred bucks is absolutely worth it. If you don't care, then don't spend the money. Pretty simple. Both AGR and Lee's have been around long enough, that it should be no problem finding reviews and feedback on both. I'd say if you are questioning it then no, it probably isn't worth the extra money to you. Me, I'd have no qualms plunking down the extra money for the Lee's box.

I agree that different people will look for different things, and make different compromises... And I will agree that even tiny changes can make for better times...

Can ANYONE say that the Lee box will actually allow for better lap times on a road course? How/why? Please fill us in... Some people "assume" something is better suited because they hear alot fo talk, but not much to back it up... Don't just tell me its better, tell me "why"...

life (and handling) are not always as they seem... Sometimes the "wrong" setup just works... Example, I look at several of the old Car Craft RSE events... A few years ago, Jeff schwartz's Cadillac won the auto-X (right?), and then there was the race instructor with the AMC Spirit (or whatever), being competitve with 15" wheels...

How is the Lee box better suited??? I realize there are differences, but what about this box will make a difference? Is the ratio any different any better?? Is it tighter than an AGR (both T-bar and "play")??


I can understand the differences between different spindle heights versus handling characteristics... different steering arms/location versus turning circle/akerman/bumpsteer... I understand how a custom rear suspension (3-link, etc) is better than the "truck arm", which is better than stock with free upper arms, which is better than stock, which is better than stock with Poly...

Obviously, some things work, and others don't (if this wasn't true, then Dennis would have already had the perfect combo and he wouldn't need to experiment anymore)...

We ALL make compromises, Dennis is still using the B-Body spindles, Brian went with the Truck Arm instead of custom "watts" link (or whatever else)... And we are all (pretty much) making compromises by mostly leaving the steering components in the same location...

Yes, if everything is optimized, then all the little things will add up to faster lap times...

There's just too many variables involved to say something is 'worth the extra money'. If you want to know for yourself without a doubt, the only way is to try something. If you don't like it, try something else. Nothing you could read on a message board is going to be able to tell you without a doubt what will work better for you. For example, I now wish I'd paid the money for a better steering box than my NAPA unit, it does not work very well for me and I'm not happy with my steering. At the time it wasn't worth the extra money to me though. Now it is, and when I get the money I'm going to buy a better unit.

If you want to know for yourself without a doubt, the only way is to try something. If you don't like it, try something else. Nothing you could read on a message board is going to be able to tell you without a doubt what will work better for you.

This is the best advice I've read so far. Everyone spends so much time trying to justify/validate their opinion that the reality of whether it will meet your personal preference is lost in the translation.

Has there been any improvement in the R&P options?

If you want to know for yourself without a doubt, the only way is to try something. If you don't like it, try something else. Nothing you could read on a message board is going to be able to tell you without a doubt what will work better for you.

True, but we all look to the others on this message board for advice... (duh! obviously thats what started THIS thread). We all want to shorten (and lessen the cost) or the "trial" process... I wouldn't want to pay the money for an AGR and a new Lee, just to see which is better (which would also take alot of track time to truly qualify which was better...

Basically, I was (like everybody else here) looking for advice (with reasons, experience to back it up). Many people here (like Dennis, and others) have lots of experience with various options... There optinions are important...

But you, like me and almost everyone else here, DO base our opinions on what others say (or else, how would you know the Lee boxes were better when you have tried neither the Lee nor the AGR???)... Same goes for those that have never tried the AGR or the Lee, and especially both... Even Tyler doesn't seem to know what goes into the AGR (yes, most likely the AGR doesn't have the same care/blueprinting put into it, but thats besides the point, nobody here knows)... I think Troy compared his Napa box, and who knows what other people have... Cody had problems with the AGR, but were those anomolys, early versions, etc? Plus his problems (with the function) seemed subjective (some boxes "loose," some tight). I know Tyler has some experience, but naturally, his advice might be biased because he sells one. He might have total faith that it is the best, and thats why he sells it, but is there really a quantifyable difference?


People here have a tendancy to compare "Apples" to a "picture of Oranges"... Not only a different product, but also making opinions on something they have never used before... The only person I recall having problems with the AGR box was Cody... I didn't here anyone else mention having used one, and then later using the new Lee...


I guess its the engineering background I have, that makes me question peoples 'opinions', when what they say seems to be total speculation on their part... I like to see real-world comparisons and feedback... I have yet to hear one person actually compare an AGR to the new Lee 670...

As I said before, its not that there isn't a difference, its just how much of a difference is there? I agree that to a "racer", every little bit counts... BUT almost everyone I see on here has so many compromises (be it B-body spindles, not the lightest wheels, not the best tires, not the best choice in rear suspensions, etc)... Couldn't that additional cost be better spent on another part of the suspension? Causing a better performance increase?

Even if the car is optimized ("perfect" suspension and balance, steering geometry, etc, with a very consistant, very good driver), how much increase in "lap time" would the Lee box provide over a "good" AGR???...


If I am ever in the need for another steering box, yes, I would probably step up to the Lee... Enough has been said about it that I am sure its a great box.


Honestly, can anybody here tell me what kind of differences I (or anyone) could expect? "everyone" seems to know the drawbacks of some of the other choices, but no one knows the real advantages... I honestly want to know... I know I don't know all the answers, but I also know no one here does...

Educate me (and others)... I honestly don't mean to be an annoying pest, but some logical answers would be nice (none of this "if you don't want to pay for it than don't" crap.)...

If you want to know for yourself without a doubt, the only way is to try something. If you don't like it, try something else. Nothing you could read on a message board is going to be able to tell you without a doubt what will work better for you.

Brian, you are going from a NAPA rebuilt box that you are not happy with, not an AGR unit... It doesn't make sense, If "nothing" on a message board will be able to tell you what will work best in your situation, then WHY would you go with the Lee? Either you have an opinion based on a message board (or other source), or you just like spending the extra money so you can say "I have a Lee box."
Are you getting rid of your wheels? I am pretty sure those aren't the best for lap times (weight). Don't get me wrong, I am planning on the same wheels (and tires size, 275/40-17 all around). I love the look... And for my car, its about the asthetics as well. Its just that throwing the extra money at something, without any real reasoning as to why, just doesn't make sense... I understand needing to replace the NAPA box...

Why have you decided to go with Lee versus AGR???
Or is it simply a matter of "everyone else thinks its the best"...

Again, I'd like to know what led to your decision... Do you KNOW some info as to why it will be better (better ratio, less play-of which I notice ver ylittle in my AGR, etc)? Or was it just because guys on some internet message board made it sound better?

As I was saying, IF I was in the market for a new box, I'd probably try the Lee too, but I'd want to at least know WHY I should be paying the price difference... Even though I may not be "hardcore", I'd still like to have a good idea of what I am paying for...


I'll admit, I am probably more of a "Poser" than many here, but then again not totally... I might not be for "maximum performance" but max within my budget"... A Poser just buys parts based on what everyone else thinks is the best, without regard to actual performance. I like data and reasons... The truly "hardcore" guys (like maybe Dennis) will try many different things, regardless of what others say (sure they might use other peoples feedback to filter down their options). IMO, hardcore guys also tend to start out with the cheaper parts (circle track, etc).

The discussions on poly rears, and tall spindles had some good info on WHY they are better choices... But no one here has yet really given reasoning why Lee is "better" performing...


Whoops! sorry to make it so long... I think I had too much caffeine today...

well if its any consolation, I think AGR boxes are good for the money, but I installed one in a 68 firebird that felt very "tight" like a quick ratio box should, but the one in my firebird(used to have junkyard TA box that also felt tight) felt loose compared to what I was used too. and rusted like no other

i just put in a '98 grand cherokee box that i bought off ebay for 30 bucks and it works excellent...no loss of turning radius.

Don't say I never contributed anything, someone here should pick this up;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NASCAR-Lee-Steering-Box-12-1-GM-Style_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33589QQitemZ80243 08510QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Tony,

All your questions will be answered with a simple phone call to Tom Lee himself. He has been doing this since 1967. He knows the owner of AGR personally. He was the guy that went with a couple engineers to Delphi to build the 600 series of boxes (including the 670). He will tell you everything you could ever want to know...believe me he's got stories.

I can divulge that he says he sends plenty of new boxes back to Delphi since they are completely unacceptable to his standards. His tolerances are insane and he even magnafluxes every box to check for any indication of fractures or surface flaws. He says that these boxes even new from delphi are filthy and these are being sold by other vendors as is. Now your engineering background should tell you that a precision built product is going to work more efficiently, last longer, and typically cost more. Performance wise, the 670 box uses a heavier valve that has been track proven for many years now, and newer age valving design like that of a rack and pinion for more precise feedback (in addition to the precision fit internals). But like others have said, no opion or statistics will ever tell you how your particular car will perform even if it was the exact same setup...why? EVERY driver requires a particular setup to optimize his/her driving style. It may be the wrong setup to most even in some cases, but it works for that person.

But seriously, call Tom, he at least can give his opions and lend his expertise. Then call the other vendors. I'm pretty confident your concerns will be fullfilled.

Shane

P.S. Cody nice find!

I picked up my GC steering shaft today at the wreckers. When I get the logistics of the steering shaft to column mounting figured out I'll post up a few pics.

Don't say I never contributed anything, someone here should pick this up;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NASCAR-Lee-Steering-Box-12-1-GM-Style_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33589QQitemZ80243 08510QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
Would that be a direct bolt-in on a Chevelle? What would be required to make it fit?

If nobody else buys it, I might click the button. :)

should be, no idea on the turning radius, and not sure on the spline size/count, but I don't see why you couldn't make it work