making 600 horsepower [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: making 600 horsepower


67Chevelleguy
Feb 9th, 06, 12:22 AM
Hi again Team Chevelle

I have a quick question about my Nova Race car buildup. I have a stock bore 350 and I want to make around 550-600 horsepower. Is that easily achieved for a natural aspirated buildup? It is going to be a pure race engine.

Thanks,
wes

bigjimzlll
Feb 9th, 06, 2:36 AM
No it is not cheap or easy.....it is not easy to do with a BBC either. It is possible with a sbc..heck nascar makes 750hp.

Wolfplace
Feb 9th, 06, 3:16 AM
Hi again Team Chevelle

I have a quick question about my Nova Race car buildup. I have a stock bore 350 and I want to make around 550-600 horsepower. Is that easily achieved for a natural aspirated buildup? It is going to be a pure race engine.

Thanks,
wes
=
Well,,, anything is possible,,,
I have a 332" small block that makes 670+HP
It is a pure race engine too & would only cost about $40,000 or so to duplicate,,, :D

Kinda depends on what you have in mind,,,

6T7Chvlle
Feb 9th, 06, 3:35 AM
thats alot of power for a small block

Camaro_fever68
Feb 9th, 06, 4:28 AM
You could stroke/bore it to a 383 and stuff it with 11:1 pistons and use a cam long enough to get the dynamic CR low enough to run pump gas. The cam would need to have around 310 degrees duration and being a solid roller would help. You could run it on the street but you wouldn't pull any vacuum so power accessories would be out the question without other means of operating them such as a vacuum motor and canister.

Busted Knuckles
Feb 9th, 06, 8:30 AM
Build it with the best forged internals you can afford and hit it with a 200 shot. Whole lot cheaper than building it do hit 600 N/A.

marooned
Feb 9th, 06, 8:42 AM
Look at the dyno sheet on my 383 stroker in my sig. Engine blocks a 010 GM casting. Has a small 100 shot of NOS, runs on pump gas.

Mike

driver
Feb 9th, 06, 8:48 AM
Best way-----STICK A BIG BLOCK IN IT AND BE DONE.Sell the 350 and buy a big block.

John_R
Feb 9th, 06, 11:09 AM
Why does it have to be normally aspirated?

If you can do a supercharger or turbo, I could see it happening (still be expensive, but more realistic); otherwise, it's gonna be a tall ($$) order!

I mean, if a 4 cyl. (turbo) Mitsubishi can relatively easily make 375-400hp/400 tq. as a pump gas daily driver (my Galant VR-4), those extra 4 cylinders should help! :)

Or, do a hipo big block and make that goal a little easier...

ToyzRMe
Feb 9th, 06, 11:20 AM
Wes, is this for a bracket car or are you aiming at a certain performance objective or class? What is your realistic budget for this project?

Just asking because there's several ways to skin a cat.

My 355 is real mild and consistent, was reasonable to build, and just what I needed for a lightweight bracket car. It probably makes an honest 540hp (never dynoed) and runs 9.30's @ 143.5-144mph. in my 2350lb. race car. It takes minimal maintenance and is consistent as the sunrise.

To hit the 600+ N/A hp level with a similar mild combo, I'd build a 400-style (large bore) block and use a set of CFE/BMF 18 degree CNC heads. A high compression 18* 377-406 would be a reliable, high power piece that could be built fairly reasonably, be durable and consistent, and not be maxxed out. There would be room to grow later if you wanted.

The reason I said 18* heads is because at the 600hp power level you're looking for from a smallblock, any 23* head that can support that level will probably need an offset rocker system. If you have to buy shaft rockers anyway, there'd be NO reason to stick with 23* heads unless it was because of class rules or something similar.

How's that for a justification of a way to spend YOUR money! :)

JMHO!

Randy

speedfreak2
Feb 9th, 06, 11:38 AM
Wes, horse power numbers are cool but what kind of ET do you plan on running? If you want to use the 350 then I'd definitly stroke it to a 383 and go with either a solid or a roller cam...whatever is in the budget. An 11 second ET will be pretty easily attainable as long as you have the whole combination correct. Keep in mind the weight of the car and just build it to do what you want.

-SS454-
Feb 9th, 06, 12:41 PM
Wolfplace, what heads are running on that 332? I figure some crazy compression and a solid roller too? Heck, what about intake and carb (carbs?).

Wolfplace
Feb 9th, 06, 2:30 PM
Wolfplace, what heads are running on that 332? I figure some crazy compression and a solid roller too? Heck, what about intake and carb (carbs?).
=
18 deg GM heads done by HRD, Bowtie intake, single four barrel 14.+ comp. 9000 RPM.
This is a GT1 Trans Am deal not a drag race engine.
It is going back together with 15 deg HRD heads & a different cam & I expect 700.
BTW, this is an honest 670 with an identity crisis,,,,,
it just blows away a few "725-750" HP cars down the straights so it doesn't seem to know it is only 670 :D

bowtie455
Feb 9th, 06, 2:54 PM
cubic inches are the answer to more power for less dough, a stroked smallblock with a high duration flat tappet solid cam or hydraulic roller should get you close.it won't require 8000rpm like a 350,therefore being a little easier on components. adding nitrous and a good cam with the right heads to the stroker would be more sensible in my opinion.beware,you'll have to shell out extra to get a factory block prepped for 600 horses.

three85stroker
Feb 9th, 06, 3:02 PM
Wes, horse power numbers are cool but what kind of ET do you plan on running? If you want to use the 350 then I'd definitly stroke it to a 383 and go with either a solid or a roller cam...whatever is in the budget. An 11 second ET will be pretty easily attainable as long as you have the whole combination correct. Keep in mind the weight of the car and just build it to do what you want.

All these responses are assuming that he's building a drag car. He only says it's a race car. You know there's a brand new racetrack out in Tooele, Miller Motorsports Park (http://www.millermotorsportspark.com/), and for all we know, he's building a corner carving road racer to be used at that venue rather than just straight lines.

I plan on eventually building a 750-ish h.p. pump-gas BBC for my Chevelle and racing it out there (I use the term 'racing' loosely, I'd be more accurate to say I'll be flogging it out there on any available track day)

cstraub
Feb 9th, 06, 3:10 PM
Hi again Team Chevelle

I have a quick question about my Nova Race car buildup. I have a stock bore 350 and I want to make around 550-600 horsepower. Is that easily achieved for a natural aspirated buildup? It is going to be a pure race engine.

Thanks,
wes

Easily achieved, no. It will take some $$$ to make those numbers out of a 355 CID engine NA. To make it out of a 23 degree head engine will make it possible but a tough road. To make it out of an 18 degree head engine will be easier. To make it out of a splayed 2.2 head is the easiest but most expensive. With any of these you are going to need high compression and good parts.

If your on a budget I would stroke the block as some have said to do and let the inches make the power.

bracketchev1221
Feb 9th, 06, 3:17 PM
It is possible but it will be expensive. You are probably looking at a $10000 motor. My friend was the same, he had to have a small block but it was a 383. With an eagle crank and rods, JE pistons, brodix heads and manifold, it made right at 600 hp.

-SS454-
Feb 9th, 06, 4:13 PM
=
18 deg GM heads done by HRD, Bowtie intake, single four barrel 14.+ comp. 9000 RPM.
This is a GT1 Trans Am deal not a drag race engine.
It is going back together with 15 deg HRD heads & a different cam & I expect 700.
BTW, this is an honest 670 with an identity crisis,,,,,
it just blows away a few "725-750" HP cars down the straights so it doesn't seem to know it is only 670 :D

Can you elaberate a bit more on the type of car its in? The SCCA Jaguar XKR Trans-Am car is reported to make 630 hp, but the team says it really makes 650-675 ponies. I think their limited to around 330 ci or something, but I thought they were DOHC. Very unusual to hear of a road racing car with a carburated OHV engine these days.

67Chevelleguy
Feb 9th, 06, 9:50 PM
Sorry for the confusion. I am building it for the 1/4 mile. I have another post here to estimate the weight. I really want to be somehwere in the 11's.
thanks,
wes

speedfreak2
Feb 9th, 06, 10:20 PM
Yea, I forgot about Larry Millers track but I figured it was for the 1/4 anyways. I figure it'll weigh in, with the roll cage, at about 2800-2900lbs. You will be able to get into the 11's no problem with a solid flat tappit cam and a decent set of heads. I personally prefer a TH350 over the TH400 but at any rate it'll still go 11's.

bowtie455
Feb 9th, 06, 10:51 PM
you might want to invest in David Vizards book "How To Build Max Performance Small Blocks On A Budget".he has several engine combos listed and one is a 575 hp/507tq 383 with ported Sportsman II heads and a flat-tappet cam.those numbers didnt magically happen though,it took lotsa work.there is a wealth of info in this book.

DragRacer
Feb 9th, 06, 10:52 PM
It shouldn't be THAT hard to make 600 HP with a good 23 degree SBC with the components available today (namely heads and cams). A REAL good, well thought out 23 degree combo will make in the 650-675 HP range. The more cubes, the less RPM will be required.

Look at Roger Copeland's 383 SBC (383Malibu). He runs 10.0's @ 3500 lbs with AFR 220's. Some quick math definitely indicates 675+ HP. I believe Roger is seeing near 8000 RPM shifts to make the power.

John Wilson's 422 SBC runs in the 10.20's @3500+ lbs. with ported Dart Pro 1's. John is spinning his around 7000 RPM. It WILL go faster if the stars align and the track and weather are good on the same day. Going off the ETs he is in the 640 HP range. The same engine made right at 600 HP on the dyno with ported TFS heads.

The minimum you will need is 12.5 - 13:1 compression (If you are going to run race gas, might as well go to 14:1), a 285 cfm head with good mid-lift numbers as well, a .650+ lift solid roller, a decent intake and carb, 1-3/4 to 1-7/8" headers, and quality machine and assembly work. At 350 cubic inches you are looking at 7500+ RPM peak power and around 8000 RPM shifts. A 6000+ RPM converter will be needed.

A 300-310 cfm head and .700+ lift will make more power, but do it at an even higher RPM.

a true 600 HP engine in a 3200 lb car should go 10.20's in a well sorted out car.

My turkey of an SBC with Brodix 18X's (don't make the same mistake) made 672 HP at 6300 RPM. It's a little bigger than 350 ci though ;)

http://members.aol.com/jgchevelle/engine.html

ChevelleRob
Feb 9th, 06, 11:02 PM
It shouldn't be THAT hard to make 600 HP with a good 23 degree SBC with the components available today (namely heads and cams). A REAL good, well thought out 23 degree combo will make in the 650-675 HP range. The more cubes, the less RPM will be required.

Look at Roger Copeland's 383 SBC (383Malibu). He runs 10.0's @ 3500 lbs with AFR 220's. Some quick math definitely indicates 675+ HP. I believe Roger is seeing near 8000 RPM shifts to make the power.

John Wilson's 422 SBC runs in the 10.20's @3500+ lbs. with ported Dart Pro 1's. John is spinning his around 7000 RPM. It WILL go faster if the stars align and the track and weather are good on the same day. Going off the ETs he is in the 640 HP range. The same engine made right at 600 HP on the dyno with ported TFS heads.

The minimum you will need is 12.5 - 13:1 compression (If you are going to run race gas, might as well go to 14:1), a 285 cfm head with good mid-lift numbers as well, a .650+ lift solid roller, a decent intake and carb, 1-3/4 to 1-7/8" headers, and quality machine and assembly work. At 350 cubic inches you are looking at 7500+ RPM peak power and around 8000 RPM shifts. A 6000+ RPM converter will be needed.

A 300-310 cfm head and .700+ lift will make more power, but do it at an even higher RPM.

a true 600 HP engine in a 3200 lb car should go 10.20's in a well sorted out car.

My turkey of an SBC with Brodix 18X's (don't make the same mistake) made 672 HP at 6300 RPM. It's a little bigger than 350 ci though ;)

http://members.aol.com/jgchevelle/engine.html

A friends Nova bracket car ran 10.70's with a 355 flat tappet cam and 240 cfm 461 fuelie heads, it was less than 3000 lbs. With only a swap to 293 CFM Canfield,s went 10.30's @ 129 , still shifting less than 7000.


BTW Why is everyone down on the 18 X Brodies ??

DragRacer
Feb 9th, 06, 11:14 PM
A friends Nova bracket car ran 10.70's with a 355 flat tappet cam and 240 cfm 461 fuelie heads, it was less than 3000 lbs. With only a swap to 293 CFM Canfield,s went 10.30's @ 129 , still shifting less than 7000.


BTW Why is everyone down on the 18 X Brodies ??

Rob,

The minimums I listed are overkills to make 600 HP if everything is right on. It usually doesn't happen that way though. How much under 3000 lbs was your buddies car?

I'm down on the 18X's because they are a compromise. I chose them so I didn't have to spend the money on shaft rockers. However, the valvetrain geometry was jacked up with stud mount rockers and the pushrods hit the heads as well. I ended up going to shaft rockers anyway. If I could do it again (since I have shaft rockers now anyway) I would put a REAL 18 or 15 degree head and make another 50 HP.

I do still think my current heads/engine has ~730 HP in it. I'll find out next winter when I have it on the dyno again.

In the end HP #'s on the dyno really don't mean much. It's how fast the car goes down the track. :thumbsup:

Wolfplace
Feb 10th, 06, 1:55 AM
Can you elaberate a bit more on the type of car its in? The SCCA Jaguar XKR Trans-Am car is reported to make 630 hp, but the team says it really makes 650-675 ponies. I think their limited to around 330 ci or something, but I thought they were DOHC. Very unusual to hear of a road racing car with a carburated OHV engine these days.
=
Sort of a 2001 Corvette, :D it' a GT-1 car.
And you should have any trouble finding carburated GT1 cars??
This car won the Pacific Northwest championship this year with a carb :)

ChevelleRob
Feb 10th, 06, 8:40 AM
Rob,

The minimums I listed are overkills to make 600 HP if everything is right on. It usually doesn't happen that way though. How much under 3000 lbs was your buddies car?

I'm down on the 18X's because they are a compromise. I chose them so I didn't have to spend the money on shaft rockers. However, the valvetrain geometry was jacked up with stud mount rockers and the pushrods hit the heads as well. I ended up going to shaft rockers anyway. If I could do it again (since I have shaft rockers now anyway) I would put a REAL 18 or 15 degree head and make another 50 HP.

I do still think my current heads/engine has ~730 HP in it. I'll find out next winter when I have it on the dyno again.

In the end HP #'s on the dyno really don't mean much. It's how fast the car goes down the track. :thumbsup:

I think it was 2900 and change, typical race car, glass nose and deck lid, everything stripped out tubbed with ladder bars.

383Malibu
Feb 10th, 06, 9:00 AM
...The minimum you will need is 12.5 - 13:1 compression (If you are going to run race gas, might as well go to 14:1), a 285 cfm head with good mid-lift numbers as well, a .650+ lift solid roller, a decent intake and carb, 1-3/4 to 1-7/8" headers, and quality machine and assembly work. At 350 cubic inches you are looking at 7500+ RPM peak power and around 8000 RPM shifts. A 6000+ RPM converter will be needed.

A 300-310 cfm head and .700+ lift will make more power, but do it at an even higher RPM...FWIW, raising our compression from 11.5 to 14.9 and simultaneously changing the headers from 1 7/8" to 2", but leaving every other item in the engine the same, raised our shift point from 7500 rpm to 8000 rpm and added approximately 50 hp. BTW, our AFR 220s flow 310 cfm thru a very well ported Dart-Wilson intake manifold and the cam is a .740"/.709" lift roller (matching right up with Jason's post).

camaroman7d
Feb 10th, 06, 12:11 PM
You don't need 600HP to run 11's in a 2900lb car. 600HP should put you into the 10's with ease. Of course you can never have to much power, but if your goal is 11's then no need to spend the extra few thousand to get to the 600HP mark. I think 600HP with 23* stuff and only 350 cubes is a tall order.

Royce

bogs
Feb 10th, 06, 12:39 PM
SS454,
All the GT1, T/A, AGT cars are carbed small blocks. I work on a vintage T/A camaro that rings 500+ out of a 302 w/ "camel humps". It's over 450 from 4-8500rpm.

Wolf,
If you don't mind me asking, what's the bore on that motor?

-SS454-
Feb 10th, 06, 12:58 PM
=
Sort of a 2001 Corvette, :D it' a GT-1 car.
And you should have any trouble finding carburated GT1 cars??
This car won the Pacific Northwest championship this year with a carb :)

Took a bit to find out haha. The SCCA GT-1 class, which resembles the SCCA Trans Am cars, but I think those are limited to 310 ci. Apparently you can run either 2v or 4v engines, EFI or carburated. Im not sure the restrictions on either, but i couldnt find any. Im suprised everyone isnt running DOHC EFI engines

three85stroker
Feb 10th, 06, 1:53 PM
So, is anyone taking into account the altitude here in Utah?

If a motor makes 600 horsepower at sea level, what'll it be at Rocky Mountain Raceways' ~4600 Ft. altitude?

Can someone remind me of the formula for altitude and hp loss?

I want to say it's 10% per 1000 ft., which if correct would make a 600 hp (at sea level) motor, something like 395 horses up here.

I could be wrong though.

Scotch
Feb 10th, 06, 2:00 PM
Some research and a few dollars will get you close...on 87-octane.

I did a bunch of homework to find a combo that'd serve my puposes. This one did.

http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=1945664039

A bit more compression and it'd make more. It's only 9.75:1 now.

~S~

JOHN WILSON
Feb 10th, 06, 2:01 PM
So, is anyone taking into account the altitude here in Utah?

If a motor makes 600 horsepower at sea level, what'll it be at Rocky Mountain Raceways' ~4600 Ft. altitude?

Can someone remind me of the formula for altitude and hp loss?

I want to say it's 10% per 1000 ft., which if correct would make a 600 hp (at sea level) motor, something like 395 horses up here.

I could be wrong though.

http://www.wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp_dp.htm

cstraub
Feb 10th, 06, 2:05 PM
So, is anyone taking into account the altitude here in Utah?

If a motor makes 600 horsepower at sea level, what'll it be at Rocky Mountain Raceways' ~4600 Ft. altitude?

Can someone remind me of the formula for altitude and hp loss?

I want to say it's 10% per 1000 ft., which if correct would make a 600 hp (at sea level) motor, something like 395 horses up here.

I could be wrong though.


He will be down at least a 100HP. I have a customer in Amarillo and I think he is around 3600 ft above sea level and his circle track engines give up about 100 on his dyno compared to bordering states with lower elevations.

camaroman7d
Feb 10th, 06, 9:16 PM
I did not know what elevation you were at when I posted, but if you make 500HP at your elevation you should still be able to run 11's.