In discussions with other members, I thought it would be beneficial to get a discussion going about the numerous options for improving front suspension geometry for a street-driven road-race type car. I've researched a lot of this, but by-far not an expert, so correct me if I'm wrong on something.

The B-spindle has been discussed numerous times, so I'll leave that one out.

SC&C's Tall Ball-Joints: I've got these :) (not on the road yet though) In looking at all the options, this looks to me like the BEST low-cost option for improving the front suspension. It may not be perfect, but it improves the most significant ailments of the A-body front end, allows you to keep your stock brakes and 15" wheels (important to me, as I can only afford to do this in stages). The car drops about 3/4"-1", bumpsteer decreased by 85%, and ~1.5 - 2" added to the effective height of the stock chevelle spindle. Cost: $340 for 4 ball-joints + upper arms to keep the upper ball-joint angle in-check.

Fatman Spindle: This is not a bad option for the budget-minded. You replace the stock spindle with this one, which drops the car 2", and adds 2" to the height of the spindle. The steering arm is LOWERED to decrease bump-steer on a Camaro, which actually almost doubles bumpsteer compared to stock on a chevelle) You can keep the stock 11" brakes with these. Cost: $300 + upper arms + need 17" wheels (??? -anyone try it yet with 15s on a chevelle? -any wheel-to steering arm interference?)

ATS's AFX Spindle: I don't know a lot about these, as they're out of my price-range so I never researched them extensively. They're aluminum (decrease unsprung weight), use corvette hubs, and are meant for using 13" C5 (?) brakes. These have the same bumpsteer issue as the Fatman Spindle, but I believe Marcus @ SC&C is working on a new steering arm to fix that on an A-body. (will Marcus's arm work on the Fatman spindle too?) Cost: ???

Coleman Spindle: Denny is working on this... any numbers yet, Denny? Any details you can share? Cost: ???

Any other options?

I dunno much about any of thse products. :( I'm using 2nd gen F-body spindles, tubular uppers from Hotrods to Hell, and stock lowers.

Still working on it Derek. So far the numbers are fantastic. Here is a teaser of what I have confirmed; no change to steering ratio but bump steer is improved and can easily be zeroed, 2.5" pin drop which puts the LCA in perfect alignment with the ball joint for minimizing roll center movement (with my extreme drop it at max roll RC movement is less than 1/2"), the spindles are very light compared to "B" spindles, and the overall spindle height is available in both 8 and 9" varieties depending on how much negative camber gain you are looking for.

Cost is going to be totally subjective to which brakes you choose; I am purposely trying to get C5 brakes to work temporarily just to see how cheap I can put it all together. My plan is to run 4-pot Superlites with 13" 2 piece rotors.

Denny, any idea on track-width? If I want to upgrade later, will I need new wheels?

Denny,

What hubs can/must you use with the Coleman spindle?

Derek, track width is unchanged however KPI is increased quite a bit.

Keith, the spinlde pin is stock "B" body size, uses either an available hub (albeit a littler pricey) or you can use as custom built hub, details to follow in a few days.

SC&C's Tall Ball-Joints: ....and ~1.5 - 2" added to the effective height of the stock chevelle spindle.

I wonder about that. I was just on Howe's website and they show a max .5" longer than stock replacement stud. That would effectively lengthen the spindle by 1" at best. Unless I'm missing something.

Keith, I never measured mine, but I'm pretty sure that's what Marcus said when I was ordering them. I'll take some measurements tonight to compare (unless Marcus chimes in with the exact specs).

Yeah Derek, better measure. I haven't seen a ball joint that has a 1" extension.

Isn't Teetoe Jones over at Larry C's great Pro-Touring site working on some spindles too??

pdq67

Isn't Teetoe Jones over at Larry C's great Pro-Touring site working on some spindles too??

pdq67

Those would be the AFX spindles, and they were covered.

damn this is hardcore :)

Fatman Spindle: This is not a bad option for the budget-minded. You replace the stock spindle with this one, which drops the car 2", and adds 2" to the height of the spindle. The steering arm is LOWERED to decrease bump-steer on a Camaro, which actually almost doubles bumpsteer compared to stock on a chevelle You can keep the stock 11" brakes with these. Cost: $300 + upper arms + need 17" wheels (??? -anyone try it yet with 15s on a chevelle? -any wheel-to steering arm interference?)

They increase bumpsteer on a Chevelle? I thought all the hype on these was that they reduce it, while improving the front suspension geometry?

I guess if my options were to either go with these or the stockers and tall ball joints, I'd be better off with the stock spindles and the tall B-joints?

Please pardon my uninformed-ness :D

Interesting topic. Keep ups to date on the AFX and Denny's

They increase bumpsteer on a Chevelle? I thought all the hype on these was that they reduce it, while improving the front suspension geometry?

I guess if my options were to either go with these or the stockers and tall ball joints, I'd be better off with the stock spindles and the tall B-joints?

Please pardon my uninformed-ness :D

Others will chime in, but the reason for the increase is due to the fact that the steering arm is actually moved in the opposite direction from where it needs to...which doubles the bumpsteer - on the A Body. On the F Body, it does actually improve the situation which is probably what you're hearing.

I also know that Tito and Marcus are working on an arm specifically for the A Body to address this.

Daryl

I've spent the last two days taking measurements of my stock "A" spindles and "B" spindles which are currently installed. What I've found seems to contradict the "givens" we've come to accept about the "B" spindle. That they are 1" taller, give you a 1" drop, and increase track width by .5" on each side as compared to the stock "A" spindle. I've made many different measurements several times of both spindles using balljoint centerlines, hub faces, pin centerline, etc. This is what I've come up with:

Spindle height:

A - 7 1/4"
B - 8 3/4" (1.5" taller)

No measureable drop. The distance from the bottom of the balljoint boss to the pin centerline looks identical to possibly 1/4" longer on the "B" spindle. So, unless there's a major difference in ball joints, I just don't see where you get a 1" drop with the "B" spindle. The balljoint centerline to hub face looks identical so I don't see how there could be any chane in track width. However, the steering arm is completely different. You don't even need to measure to see that. The "B" spindle arm is ~11/16" longer, lower and points in more than the "A" spindle.

So, except for the steering arm and height, the "B" spindle looks virtually identical to the "A" spindle.

No measureable drop. The distance from the bottom of the balljoint boss to the pin centerline looks identical to possibly 1/4" longer on the "B" spindle. So, unless there's a major difference in ball joints, I just don't see where you get a 1" drop with the "B" spindle. The balljoint centerline to hub face looks identical so I don't see how there could be any chane in track width. However, the steering arm is completely different. You don't even need to measure to see that. The "B" spindle arm is ~11/16" longer, lower and points in more than the "A" spindle.

So, except for the steering arm and height, the "B" spindle looks virtually identical to the "A" spindle.

I know that Dennis has a much better understanding of this, but the main reason for the drop is due to the added height of the B spindle. If you think about it, it should translate to at least 3/4" change, due to the "relaxing" of the spring. The other 1/4" could easily be the 1/4" that you refer to.

You said that you have the B body conversion? Did you not get the results that you're referring to?

The spindle itself has no impact on track width in this case (A to B spindle) however many folks depending on which brakes they use experience a track width change.

The spindle pin has about a 1/2" drop over the "A body spindle and the ball joint is 1/4-1/2" taller resulting in a 1" drop (results may vary).

Dennis, how did you learn so much?? seems like just last year you were changing oil and brakes at the dodge dealership. You are my hero and role model!!! :) :) So how does the B body spindle compare to a second gen F body spindle on a more serious note.

Dennis, how did you learn so much?? seems like just last year you were changing oil and brakes at the dodge dealership. You are my hero and role model!!! :) :) Actually I was changing oil and brakes when you were still in diapers So how does the B body spindle compare to a second gen F body spindle on a more serious note.Well grasshopper, the 2nd gen "F" body spindle and early "B" body spindle are exactly identical, the later 12" "B" spindle gets a larger pin diameter for a bigger bearing but remains the same other than that.

I know, that was more of a question to throw out there. Jeffandre is using the B body spindle for the bigger bearings. I can't see that it would make that huge of a difference. Bigger the better i guess.

So this means that chevelle brakes won't work on the F body spindle without using a different bearing?

So this means that chevelle brakes won't work on the F body spindle without using a different bearing?
What are Chevelle brakes? From which year? drum or disc?

any rotor or drum hub that has to fit onto the spindle. You answer, don't ask me questions. I'm just throwing some stuff out there that might benefit this "hardcore" thread.

I'm just throwing some stuff out there that might benefit this "hardcore" thread....not looking for a hard-core thread, just hard-core suspension, not quite "start from scratch and build your own" hard-core, but "available bolt-ons with road-course racing in mind" hard-core. I was just trying to pull in opinions from the road-racing segment of Pro-Tourers rather than the guys building their cars for comfortable cruising. (not there's anything wrong with that)

Denny, do you have the specs on a stock Chevelle spindle? I've been thinking about drawing some things up in AutoCAD, or maybe even model them in SolidWorks to help myself understand things like RCH and how upper A-arm lengths affect FVSA and RCH.

so far from what i have for a chevelle.
-stock control arms w/del a lum bushings
-best shocks you can afford/kybor better
-hotchkis springs
-modified drum spindles for disc brakes
-jeep grand cherokee steering box
-replace all ball joint and tie rod/centerlink with napa equivalant

like i said this is from what i have gathered. if any of this is not the way to go feel free to "correct" me as this is not my personal set-up just what i would do from what i know on my budget.........

Denny,

Whats the status on the spindle set up your working on? Also how will it work on a mildly lowered elky. Would love some details, going to a car show/ swap meet this weekend and just hate to buy parts and find out theres something better the next day.

Thanks

I wonder just how much is a better designed spindle worth. Everyone is all excited about the new ATS spindle, however what kind of difference will the driver notice, how about reductions in time at the track. I have noticed that lately with PT its all about how well the part is engineered and how good it looks in suspension programs and such. WHat I don't ever see, is real life evaluations. If you buy drag suspension parts, a lot of the time they will try and convince you it is worth so much in 60 foot times etc.... So what kind of differnece is a chevelle driver going to feel?

any rotor or drum hub that has to fit onto the spindle. You answer, don't ask me questions. I'm just throwing some stuff out there that might benefit this "hardcore" thread. To fit the early “A” or “F” body hubs on the late “B” or “F” body spindle pin requires the use of a hybrid bearing. You would have to figure out the hub race I.D. and the pin O.D. to find a bearing to match.

Denny, do you have the specs on a stock Chevelle spindle? I've been thinking about drawing some things up in AutoCAD, or maybe even model them in SolidWorks to help myself understand things like RCH and how upper A-arm lengths affect FVSA and RCH. I have them somewhere; I also have a pair of stock spindles at work. I can take some measurements tomorrow. I tried this once before and decided it would cost exceed the benefits. Having a pair of one off spindles built would cost over 1K just for the pair of uprights.
Denny,
Whats the status on the spindle set up your working on? Also how will it work on a mildly lowered elky. Would love some details, going to a car show/ swap meet this weekend and just hate to buy parts and find out theres something better the next day.

ThanksI’d love to tell you that the project I have in the works is the end all to suspension packages for the early “A” body but that would be irresponsible at this point. I am very close to having an answer, but not enough information yet. So far on paper everything looks real good, far better than anything else currently on the market. Ride height is always a critical aspect for any suspension package and this one proves it will be the easiest to adapt as the spindles are offered in 2 different heights for different height chassis’. If it were me, I would wait. What’s another couple months? I hope to find a local “Guinea Pig” once I complete mine to allow me to play with a car that has not already been modifies so extensively. That way I can honestly describe what is involved and what final costs will be.

I wonder just how much is a better designed spindle worth. Everyone is all excited about the new ATS spindle, I’m not

however what kind of difference will the driver notice, how about reductions in time at the track. I have noticed that lately with PT its all about how well the part is engineered and how good it looks in suspension programs and such. WHat I don't ever see, is real life evaluations..... So what kind of differnece is a chevelle driver going to feel?Here is the long and short summed up. Will an everyday cruiser notice much difference? Yes, some. It will ride smoother and handle remarkably better.

Will a track whore notice the difference? Hell yes, anytime you can minimize roll center migration the car becomes much easier to drive (drive mine the way it is and you’ll see why minimizing migration is so important, it’s all over the place) and therefore will improve lap times. Bump steer is also a huge problem especially when hitting a dip at 100+ going into a sweeper. The biggest difference is roll center height and migration, fixing those 2 issues will make driving at speeds much more pleasurable and much less work.

If you're keeping a list of potential buyers,Denny,put me down. I'm definitely interested.
Will we need custom A-arms? Can I keep my Air Ride coilovers?

Yes Clint, you can keep your air ride.

*edit-got my numbers so I deleted the question

OK, quick update. I ran some numbers tonight after taking some more exact measurements. If all goes to plan the FRCH will come in just under 2", RC migration at max. cornering will be less than 3/16" of an inch and the LCA pivots will sit ~7.00" off the ground, plenty of ground clearance IMO. KPI is 10*.

FWIW, the "B" spinldes are actually a 1/4" taller and have 1/2" of pin drop over stock "A" body spinldes. The 9" Coleman peices have 2" of pin drop over "A" body spindles. I hope to have a working peice ready in about a month if ya'll can hang on that long. I'll post pics of the progress thus far next week.

I'm new to the chevelle, so bear with me if I repete previous info...

I just read the Fatman web page about their spindle. They claim to have eliminated the bumpsteer. It looks like the spindles are 2 peice. Could they have devised a better steeting arm to bolt on and eliminate the bumpsteer? They also say they are taller for improved camber, but don't mention anything about changing the upper control arms. (but they will sell you a set)

http://www.fatmanfab.com/06page25.htm

Also... I saw hotchkis makes an offset-machined cross shaft for max camber adjustment. How would this figure in? They say for stock upper arms or theirs...

the LCA pivots will sit ~7.00" off the ground, plenty of ground clearance IMO.

What tire diameter did you take into account for your 7" clearance number? Right now from the ground to the center of the forward inner LCA bolt I'm riding at about 8.125", that's with 26.1" tall tires. I don't really want to go much lower than that due to header and scattershield issues (my scattershield sits about 3/4" lower than the oilpan and crossmember, and I'd really rather not dig that into the asphalt!) Guess I'll have to run the numbers to see how things are affected.

That, and if I go any lower in the front I'd want to go down in the rear, and I'm already limited by driveshaft to floorpan clearance (although that issue will go away when I sacrifice the backseat and rework the floorpan for 3-link clearance...)

I've been checking out the same parts from Coleman and I really really like what I see; this looks like it will be a darn good combo. What's the plan for brakes? I've been looking at the Coleman 4-pots and also the Wilwoods. I'd like the extra dirt shields/seals that "roadworthy" calipers have, so the Wilwoods will probably be the better option. Floating rotors would be a big plus IMO with fixed calipers to avoid pad knockback we're likely to get with our relatively heavy cars, and I see you can get the floater style "wide-5 hubs" in 5 x 4.75 bolt pattern so wheel availability is much better. A bit more expensive than machining down an Impy brake rotor to serve as a hub but I feel with fixed calipers and our cars weight a floating rotor is a must have. I've experienced pad knockback on other cars and it's SCARY the first time if you are unprepared for it-- you go for the brakes and they just aren't there!

Also been eyeing a 9" full floater with 0.5 degrees negative camber built in for out back when I build the new frame / 3 link. Should be good for a bunch of "you know your rear end is bent" comments at carshows at the very least. LOL.

Also been kicking around the idea of building a decoupled torque arm for the rear, as given my severe traction issues I could sure use the massive amount of anti-squat I could build into such a setup.

Also... I saw hotchkis makes an offset-machined cross shaft for max camber adjustment. How would this figure in? They say for stock upper arms or theirs...

Offset cross shafts are only needed when the frame has "sagged" enough so that you can't properly align the car (i.e. out of shims.) This is a cheap "fix" which covers up the real problem-- a sagged frame. Best way to fix it is to have the car put on a frame rack and have the frame "rolled" back out.

Troy

Based on 26" tires Troy, there is room for upward ride height adjustement without sacraficing much if any in the way of RC numbers.

I plan on running Wilwood 4-pots (aka forged Superlites), still working on a budget rotor/floater option.

The Winters style floater 9" is also on the list of crap I need to buy this year.

Based on 26" tires Troy, there is room for upward ride height adjustement without sacraficing much if any in the way of RC numbers.

I plan on running Wilwood 4-pots (aka forged Superlites), still working on a budget rotor/floater option.

The Winters style floater 9" is also on the list of crap I need to buy this year.

Bitchin'.

I've been pricing out various floating-rotor combos lately. None are near as attractive in price as fixed rotors on cut-down used Impy discs though. With the bigger wheel bearings pad knockback may not be an issue, but you'll never know until you try it. If you kept floating stock-style or PBR calipers though then a rigid rotor would be a non-issue.

Stoptech and AP racing both make floating 2-piece rotors (and AP has the super sweet strap-drive style); you could probably use those on the machined down Impy disc hubs but I bet they'll be more expensive than just buying the Wide-5 hubs/floaters in the first place. The AP strap drives don't suffer from binding and pin wear issues though that other floater designs have, and that's something to consider for a street car.

Troy

My biggest problem is finding a rotor that runs a 8X7 bolt pattern, is a 12.5-13" rotor, and doesn't cost over 50/ea. I found some rotor hats but they seem a little pricey (69/ea). I'd like to figure out a way to run an OE application (like a C5 or maybe a late model truck) rotor that is the right backspacing to use on the cut down Impy hub and line up with the rigid mount 3.5" calipers. If I find something ya'll will be the second to know.

I wonder about that. I was just on Howe's website and they show a max .5" longer than stock replacement stud. That would effectively lengthen the spindle by 1" at best. Unless I'm missing something.OK, I finally got the chance to measure, and you're right - .5" each.

Measuring what appears to be (not 100% accurate, but as close as I could estimate/measure without taking things apart) the effective height (center of UBJ socket to center of LBJ socket) of the spindle is ~9.75" stock, and ~10.75" with the tall Ball-Joints.

I could have sworn that Marcus told me they would lower my car .75" - 1", but he may have mis-understood my question, or I mis-understood his answer :clonk:

so far from what i have for a chevelle.
-stock control arms w/del a lum bushings
-best shocks you can afford/kybor better
-hotchkis springs
-modified drum spindles for disc brakes
-jeep grand cherokee steering box
-replace all ball joint and tie rod/centerlink with napa equivalant

like i said this is from what i have gathered. if any of this is not the way to go feel free to "correct" me as this is not my personal set-up just what i would do from what i know on my budget.........

Regarding steering boxes...
IMO, I would NOT discount stepping up to an AGR steering box... These can be had with the "old-style" and size input (NO hybrid or new rag-joint needed), and can also be had with the old style IF hose seats. I know the Lee adapters are pretty cheap, and I think Metric O-rings (and braided hoses) would be better, but thinking budget...

On my AGR, the input T-bar is also stiffer than stock applications. I think this feels better, as a little more dirver input is required (more road feel?)...

I haven't priced the Grand Cherokee box, but usually Jeep wreckers want a lot for their parts, and for this newer, desirable box, I think it will be harder to find it "cheap"... Plus its still a "used" part, so factor in the cost of at least a seal and bearing kit to rebuild it... By the time you add it up, the AGR is not too bad price-wise...

Dennis,
rough estimate on the Coleman spindles ( and needed pieces)...


I am unsure which way I want to go... I don't need to go "all out", but I'd like to know that when I spend the $$$, I will not be creating too many new issues... Now all this spindle stuff is up in the air...

Thankfully, I haven't done anything yet... I originally was planning the CBB (12" spindle, "machined" hub, 1LE rotors, Suburban Calipers), and that has slowely morphed over the years...

My car will NOT be a track car, but I'd like to maximize my geometry/braking while keeping good looks and within a limited budget... I'd like a track car too, but I can't afford the time/money at this point in my life (hopefully somewhere down the road in a few years)...

Maybe someone (Dennis, Troy, etc) could list the available "options" for Chevelles (with advantages/drawbacks) in order of desirability (for the street, etc)... In other words, something like It is better to use the Fatman spindles versus stock, BUT there will be increase bumpsteer issues, blah,blah, blah, or stock spindles with ball-joint extenders are better than B-body spindles... So if someone has a limited budget, they can figure what's best within their budget...

Something that can help out the budget-minded that are looking for "better" geometry, but not the absolute best track geometry (which is often out of most budgets)...

Ideally, for myself, I'd like to find a setup (front brakes and suspension) that will be the best choice within about $1500-$2000 of a stock Chevelle disc rebuild/conversion, complete with upper arms, spindles, brakes, etc (I already run 72 Chevelle discs) and will fit in most 17"+ wheels... I figure I have about $3000-$4000 for everything (including wheels and tires), but I do have lots of time to wait...

That is exactly what I'm working on Tony (especially since I am on the super budget). I'll have pricing information and pics with a parts list thus far later...

This is what 200.00 buys you from Coleman-
http://onrails.us/images/coleman.jpg

So X2 plus shipping it runs about 450/pair for spinldes, arms, and brackets. I am working on a way to fit budget brakes to this package, details to follow later (maybe a week or so).

A bit more expensive than machining down an Impy brake rotor to serve as a hub Keep in mind, the Impala hubs have a 5 on 5 wheel stud pattern and are very heavy. Also, the snout is 3" in diameter. Most wheels have a centerbore diameter of 2.78" for GM cars. Also, my Wilwood rotor hats have a 2.78" center bore diameter. So you'd have to cut the rotor off, redrill the wheel stud holes, and possibly turn the snout down. I'm not going there. There may be an alternative:

69-82 Corvettes used a separate hub/rotor on the front. The rotor is riveted to the hub. The hubs use the same size bearings (A3 outer & A5 inner) as the Impala hubs and the bearing seals have the same 2" inner diameter. If the bearing spacing is the same, or if the Impala and Vette spindle snout is the same length ( anybody know???), using Vette hubs may be a better way to go. I'm sure you could find used ones somewhere. The wheel stud pattern is 5 x 4.75. I don't know what the hub snout diameter is though. Vette Brakes has an billet aluminum Corvette hub.

The other problem, at least for me, is ball joints. The Coleman spindle uses a K6141 lower ball joint. I currently have K6145 joints in my GW lower A-arms. The K6141 joints have a larger stud and the body is wider. If I can't turn the body of a K6141 down to fit my lower A-arms, then the Coleman spindle is out. I draw the line at buying new lower A-arms.

Keith-- I hear you on the lower ball joints, this will be a sticking point with me too as I currently have the B-body balljoints in my GW arms and definately do not want to replace the arms. My LBJ's are stamped with Moog 5651... I assume (as I can't seem to x-reference the 5651 number) these are the same as your K6145's as we're both running the same arms/spindles.

So, there's two options: either machine down a set of K6141 (or the taller K6117) to fit our arms (cheapest, if it's possible and will leave enough wall thickness), or have Howe build a balljoint with a K6145 housing and a K727 stud (which according to their website they CAN do, and you can get the studs in stock length to +.500" in .100" increments.)

Denny, did you run the numbers with a stock 6141/K747 stud length or with an extended stud?

Troy

My LBJ's are stamped with Moog 5651... I assume (as I can't seem to x-reference the 5651 number) these are the same as your K6145's as we're both running the same arms/spindles. Yes, same ones I have. 5651 is the ball joint body part number.

either machine down a set of K6141 (or the taller K6117) K6117 is a screw in type. Not sure how that would work. These guys have a press in ball joint (they call it weld in) that crosses to a K6117. The body diameter is 1.975 which is very close to a K6145. I don't know the exact size of the K6145 but I know it's under 2". http://www.allstar-performance.com/product.htm?prod=210

or have Howe build a balljoint with a K6145 housing and a K727 stud I sent in a request for a K6145 with a K6141 stud and the reply was no even though it let me set it up that way on their website. If the K6145/K727 works, then that solves that problem, albiet rather expensively.

I may have found a much more inexpensive solution:

ALL56225 adapter bushing 9.99 each.

Looks like it adapts the K6145 stud taper to the K6141 stud taper. The tapers are actually the same at 2.00" per foot but the 6141 has a physically larger stud and castle nut.

http://www.allstar-performance.com/OldSite/pdf/catalog/Page25.pdf

Keith, the Coleman stuff uses the same taper as the "B" body spinldes. I run turned down Impy LBJ's right now.

Troy, stock length ball joints; upper and lower.

Keith, the Coleman stuff uses the same taper as the "B" body spinldes. I run turned down Impy LBJ's right now.

Troy, stock length ball joints; upper and lower.

Denny, are you positive? What I'm finding is that there are two Impala spindles; 71-76 and 77-up. The 71-76 (and Coleman spindle) uses the K6141 LBJ while the '77-up spindles use the K6145. Most B-body swap spindles are '77-up spindles so the LBJ's are different. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I know for sure I'll have to sell my GW upper arms (and go Pole Position) but I'll sell those with the spindles/brakes. I just really want to keep my GW lowers.

Troy

Yeah, they all use a 2" per foot taper although the stud length and outer housings may differ a bit. The stud taper is the only thing I worry about, anything else can be adapted to fit.

To be specific, the same ball joint taper is used on all of the following lower ball joints; 71-85 Impala, 70-96 Camaro, 73-77 Chevelle, 73- ?Monte Carlo, etc... basically all the full size cars and Camaro.

The 67-69 and 68-72 Chevelle are kind of by themselves with that silly 1.5" per foot taper.

Looks like the spacers Keith found are the hot ticket then.

About turning ball-joints; I know the stock A-body ball joints are 2.010", that the K6145 balljoints are a bit bigger (how large I'm not sure) and that the K6141 balljoints for the 71-76 Impala & Coleman spindles are 2.190" OD. Wish I had a loose K6145 sitting around to measure the OD so I could see how much would need to be shaved off a K6141 to fit into an arm sized for a K6145.

Keith, the Coleman stuff uses the same taper as the "B" body spinldes. Same taper, yes. But the stud is larger in diameter on the K6141 and uses a larger castle nut. It's like comparing a 7/16" bolt to a 1/2" bolt. So what's going to happen is the K6145 stud is going to go too far into the spindle, or in the case of Coleman, the steering arm ball joint stud hole. I compared a K6145 to a K6141 at the parts store today. There is a huge difference in the size of the studs. It has nothing to do with the length.

Huh, figures I'd hit a road block. Oh well, All-Star it is:

Converts Allstar Ball Joint ALL56218 to taper similar to ALL56206 or ALL56217. Enables use of ALL56218 on most dirt and Sweet-style spindles.
ALL56225 Adapter Bushing
Suggested Selling Price: $9.99

Huh, figures I'd hit a road block. Oh well, All-Star it is:

Converts Allstar Ball Joint ALL56218 to taper similar to ALL56206 or ALL56217. Enables use of ALL56218 on most dirt and Sweet-style spindles.
ALL56225 Adapter Bushing
Suggested Selling Price: $9.99

No road block, just another layer of "stuff" you need. :p

As far as Keith and I with the GW arms, guess I need to hit up my local NAPA and measure a K6145 to see if it's feasible to machine down a K6141. I don't want to take off too much and risk severely weakening the part. If that's the case I'll run the adapter sleeves. Since they're captive I don't have any worries about durability (unless they're made of import cast pot-metal)...

Denny, do you remember how much you had to machine off your K6145's to fit in the stock a-arms (2.010" bore)? I found a reference saying that .080" needs to be taken off the K6145's to get them down to 2.010". If that is correct, then the GW lower arms that Keith and I have are set up for a 2.090" LBJ, in which case we'd have to machine about .100" off a K6141. That's pretty significant IMO, and I think for sanity I'd buy one sacrifical K6141 and section it to take a wall thickness measurement before turning a pair down .100" and installing them on the car. If the wall thickness isn't there, the spacers are a much safer option... LBJ failures are ugly.

I don't remember how much came off, I just had my machinist finish lathe them to 2.010".

Corvette hubs are out. :( This is starting to look like it will exceed my cost to benefit ratio. Going to start looking at other options again.

Corvette hubs are out. :( This is starting to look like it will exceed my cost to benefit ratio. Going to start looking at other options again.

DOH!

Too bad Coleman doesn't make a 9" spindle with a 77-up Impala snout, that would make this much easier as you could re-use your current B-body hubs and rotors. I was hoping I could re-use my current Baer aluminum hubs and 2-piece rotors for now but that's not the case.

I was hoping I could re-use my current Baer aluminum hubsBaer makes an aluminum hub the fits the B-body spindle???

If it were a simple bolt on and everything would fit, I could almost justify the expense of the Coleman aluminum Impala hub. At 7 lbs, it's half the weight of my current Caprice hub & wheel adapter combo which weights 15lbs! :eek: That's an 8lb loss of unsprung weight per side! Coleman will drill the second set of 5 x 4.75 holes and install 1/2" wheels studs for a mere $25 per hub. :) But, the 3.06" snout can not be reduced to 2.78" to fit my rotor hat and wheel centerbore. So now we're talking about machining the rotor hats and wheels out to 3.06". $$$$ This is your basic snowball sydrome. As the snowball rolls downhill, it keeps getting bigger and bigger.....

Yes Keith, my current Baer "Track" kit came with nice hard anodized aluminum hubs, 5 x 4.75 with large metric studs (can't recall the exact diameter right now, but 16mm rings a bell.) Unfortunately they're for the 77-up B-spindle... is the 77-up snout/bearings the same as the 71-76 snout and bearings? I'd love to be able to reuse these things, or better yet, keep my hubs/rotors/calipers for now and just make my own caliper bracket to use my PBR's for a while longer.

I'm in the camp of the cheaper and the more parts I can reuse from my current setup, the sooner I can do this swap. Being able to reuse my current brakes moves the agenda WAY forward.

Troy

The outer bearings are the same, A3's. But the inner bearings are different. the 71-76 Impala hubs use A5 inner bearings and the 78 & up B-body hubs use A6 bearings. A-body cars also use A6 inner bearings. The A5 bearings are larger.

The hub snout diameter on everything except the 71-76 Impala hub is 2.78". 71-76 Impala hub is 3.06".

Are the 5x5 parts any cheaper, I haven't bought my brakes yet and will have to run spacers for my wheels anyway. Could just as easily run the 5x5 stuff and use adapters to go back to 5x4.75 if it makes stuff cheaper.

My 64 has Hotchkis upper A arms, B body spindles, stock lowers, 1LE drilled and slotted rotors, Baer tie rod adjusters and Hotchkis sway bars. I have been able to limit the bumpsteer to almost nill and have never ridden in a car this old that handles and corners as good as this one. Anybody else tried this set-up? I like it and think you would too.

My 64 has Hotchkis upper A arms, B body spindles, stock lowers, 1LE drilled and slotted rotors, Baer tie rod adjusters and Hotchkis sway bars. I have been able to limit the bumpsteer to almost nill.No you haven't. I take it in your opinion it handles nicely but it is physically impossible to reduce the bump steer with "B" spindles.

My 64 has Hotchkis upper A arms, B body spindles, stock lowers, 1LE drilled and slotted rotors, Baer tie rod adjusters and Hotchkis sway bars. I have been able to limit the bumpsteer to almost nill and have never ridden in a car this old that handles and corners as good as this one. Anybody else tried this set-up? I like it and think you would too.

I have the exact setup, and while it handles better than stock it's far from ideal-- RC is too low, RC migration too excessive, steering ratio is slowed because of the longer steering arms, and contrary to what you think your bumpsteer is not nil. To reduce the bump steer of the B-body swap the tie rod pickup point in the steering arms needs to move UP and BACK-- and the Baer Tracker kit only allows you to shim the outer tierod down, which makes it worse! The math doesn't lie in this situation, you'd be better off bumpsteer wise getting rid of the Baer Tracker kit or running it with NO spacers between the spindle and rod end. The only way to limit bumpsteer with the B-spindles is to limit the suspension travel, so that the suspension can't move enough to induce a lot of bumsteer!

I'm not coming from left field here. I run the SAME SETUP and know all too well of the problems. Does it handle better than stock? Yes. Does it handle better than stock spindles with tall ball joints? No. Does it handle better than the current project of using the Coleman spindles? While the Coleman setup hasn't been tried yet, again the math doesn't lie: it won't even be close.

Still, it's not bad from a steady-state cornering traction standpoint. It's when you start throwing bumps in there and/or soft springs and shocks that allow excessive movement that the bumpsteer issue with the B-body spindles rears its ugly head... or when you go and try to pull a u-turn without removing the stops in your steering box because of the reduced steering ratio because of the longer steering arms.

Just did my tax return. Looks like the Coleman-swap agenda may move forward a bit. :D

Steering arms. uprights, upper arms, UBJs, LBJ adapters, and brake brackets are a no-brainer, but I'm still looking into hub/rotor/caliper options. Keith/Dennis, any more progress in this area? I keep finding myself back at going with 5 x 4.75 wide 5's and living with the larger register. Since I plan on ordering new wheels anyways I can have them made with the right size register.

Troy

DOH!

Too bad Coleman doesn't make a 9" spindle with a 77-up Impala snout, that would make this much easier as you could re-use your current B-body hubs and rotors. I was hoping I could re-use my current Baer aluminum hubs and 2-piece rotors for now but that's not the case.

I don't know if these will have the same effect dennis is going for but coleman does make a spindle with an impala pin. They don't say weither it is the 77-up or not though. http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_1109&products_id=5514

I have the exact setup, and while it handles better than stock it's far from ideal-- RC is too low, RC migration too excessive, steering ratio is slowed because of the longer steering arms, and contrary to what you think your bumpsteer is not nil. To reduce the bump steer of the B-body swap the tie rod pickup point in the steering arms needs to move UP and BACK-- and the Baer Tracker kit only allows you to shim the outer tierod down, which makes it worse! The math doesn't lie in this situation, you'd be better off bumpsteer wise getting rid of the Baer Tracker kit or running it with NO spacers between the spindle and rod end. The only way to limit bumpsteer with the B-spindles is to limit the suspension travel, so that the suspension can't move enough to induce a lot of bumsteer!

I'm not coming from left field here. I run the SAME SETUP and know all too well of the problems. Does it handle better than stock? Yes. Does it handle better than stock spindles with tall ball joints? No. Does it handle better than the current project of using the Coleman spindles? While the Coleman setup hasn't been tried yet, again the math doesn't lie: it won't even be close.

Still, it's not bad from a steady-state cornering traction standpoint. It's when you start throwing bumps in there and/or soft springs and shocks that allow excessive movement that the bumpsteer issue with the B-body spindles rears its ugly head... or when you go and try to pull a u-turn without removing the stops in your steering box because of the reduced steering ratio because of the longer steering arms.

Just did my tax return. Looks like the Coleman-swap agenda may move forward a bit. :D

Steering arms. uprights, upper arms, UBJs, LBJ adapters, and brake brackets are a no-brainer, but I'm still looking into hub/rotor/caliper options. Keith/Dennis, any more progress in this area? I keep finding myself back at going with 5 x 4.75 wide 5's and living with the larger register. Since I plan on ordering new wheels anyways I can have them made with the right size register.

Troy
I have done just the opposite of the suggested softer suspension that you are talking about. I have 18's with 45 series tires and have stiffened the suspension for road racing as much as possible(however I thought about airbags a time or two). That might be the reason i do not notice the bumpsteer that much.

I have done just the opposite of the suggested softer suspension that you are talking about. I have 18's with 45 series tires and have stiffened the suspension for road racing as much as possible(however I thought about airbags a time or two). That might be the reason i do not notice the bumpsteer that much.

I did not suggest softer suspension. I said softer front suspension makes the bumpsteer issue worse since the suspension will see a greater range of travel/roll. What I was getting at (and you are right) is that stiffer springs/shocks definately helps the B-body setup because it keeps travel in check, and the less it travels, the less bumpsteer there is. As long as you take measures to limit the suspension travel with a B-body swap the bump steer isn't *too* bad. It gets really bad as you deviate more than about 2-3" in bump or rebound over normal ride height.

Hang on Troy...don't go anywhere yet Keith. I'm still working furiously toward getting this together.

Hang on Troy...don't go anywhere yet Keith. I'm still working furiously toward getting this together.

I'm not going anywhere either. I've been looking and looking at Speedway, Stock Car Products, Howe, Wilwood, etc and etc searching for hub/rotor options.

I was just checking with Wilwood; I thought they might offer a "bolt on" big-brake upgrade kit for 71-76 Impalas (in which case they'd make a forged aluminum hub we could use) but they only list a big brake kit for 76-up Impalas. Drat!

I don't know if these will have the same effect dennis is going for but coleman does make a spindle with an impala pin. They don't say weither it is the 77-up or not though. http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog...oducts_id=5514
Those are exactly the ones Dennis has. Everything Coleman sells that's Impala related is the larger heavier duty stuff, 71-76. They have a larger & longer spindle pin, take larger bearings and special hubs. Therein lies the major hurdle, at least for me.

I'm not out yet. I have a line on some used Coleman Impala spindles and aluminum hubs for a fraction of what they cost new. Just checking on a few things before I decide.

I'm not out yet. I have a line on some used Coleman Impala spindles and aluminum hubs for a fraction of what they cost new. Just checking on a few things before I decide.
I hate you. :p

Don't hate me yet. Not a done deal.

Hang on Troy...don't go anywhere yet Keith. I'm still working furiously toward getting this together.

I'm still waiting patiently,too. You suspension wizards can figure all this out. If it doesn't cost a fortune and necessitate replacing all my suspension parts,I'll probably jump on the bandwagon,as well.

Me too. went to the Coleman site. WAY over my head. Lost me with stuff made for Impalas and 5X5's etc. I think the jist of this thread was how to best use parts guys already have on tall spindle set-ups and some of us, like me, are looking to see how it all sorts out. I don't have my front suspension yet and am glad there is so much going on in that area. The tall spindles were the best solution based on what was available then. now we have some new products to look at. the afx spindles look like a winner but i'm curious about how much do they cost? also, we have multiple threads going on this subject and i haven't seen this much "discussion" since the "SS clone" wars. people seem to be very "sensative" about being told that the tall spindles don't cut it. i for one, am very grateful to have this website and the guys who've already spent a lot of money telling us "hey, they don't work that great after-all."

Denny, about the Coleman spindles you have been refering to. are they some new pieces for Chevelles you are working on? What time does the bandwagon get here?

Scott, I'm working on a viable cost efficient way to get those Coleman Impala pieces on an "A" body. The AFX pieces run 625/pair, you need to supply the brakes and they will not accept anything smaller than 13" rotors if I recall correctly, they also leave a little to be desired on “A” bodies. They are the cats meow on Camaro, but there are improvements left to be had. The Coleman pieces run 400/pair and you can run any size brakes you want down to 10" if need be, they also will accept 80% of the racing brake calipers out there, from 4 piston Dynalites at 75/ea to AP racing 6-pots at 1000/ea.

The bandwagon is already here, you’re just in time, bookmark this thread and check back weekly for updates.

I've been watching this bandwagon for a while now....already got the stiffer QA-1 coil over springs to replace the softer progressive springs which come stock when you order the kit from GW. Only hope it helps more than just ok....You know I used to have F spindles under the front end, again a tall spindle but I don't seem to remember this bad a change in toe going through the suspension travel.....although the coil springs I used were stiffer...that may be why. I was looking forward to the ATS's AFX Spindles but may have to look at the Coleman’s instead. Also, I wanted to keep as much of the Bear stuff I could, especially the 2 piece rotor/hat combo and the PBR Calipers since the money is already invested in them. Sounds more and more like they are not going to fit.....I'll stay tuned and won't touch the dial......Sam

Although not a cure all, couldn't a center link such as one from Howe help tune out some of the bump steer problems of the B spindle setup.....I'm thinking that by lowering the inner pivot point of the inner tie rods at the center link accomplishes the same thing as raising the pivot point at the outer tie rod at the steering arm of the spindle. Any thoughts here? If I could get decent road performance out of this without spending the extra money.....The only thing not improving any that I could think of is that the steeering response would still be slower with the long arm of the B spindle. Sam

Not really Sam as the bigger problem is the length of the steering arm. You could relocate the steering box and idler arm and that would help, but would require a lot of fabrication work.

The tall spindles were the best solution based on what was available then. And a pretty good bang for the buck solution as well. I MAY have $100 in my "B" spindles and hubs. That includes paying the machine shop to cut the rotors off the hubs, new bearings, and upper ball joints. With coil overs, adjustable upper A-arms, and a stock sway bar, I was able to run 2:05 laps on the 3.1 mile road course at B.I.R. I was told yesterday by a very experienced driver that 2:05 is a very good lap time especially for a 36 year old vehicle. Anything under 2:00 and you're a rock star. "B" spindles may not be the perfect solution but given the cost and what they can do, I still think they're better than nothing.

I've been surfing around the race parts sights, new and used. Would like to know whats the difference between the the impala and grandnational spindle.

I've been emailing various people all weekend trying to find out what's what. At this point, I can't remember who makes what or said what. It's giving me a headache. This thread and similar threads in Suspension. Guys bent out of shape about tall spindles blah-blah-blah...

Seems to me there's two schools of thought here. One is all the guys who already have a lot of money invested in tall spindles, tubular arms and big brake kits. These guys want to use as much of what they already have as possible. I don't blame them. Then there's the guys like me who are getting ready to build and want to know every possible option before we decide. The worst thing about building cars is all the money you waste trying to figure out what works.

The thing that puzzles me most is, why are there no CHEVELLE SPECIFIC parts available? It's not as if there's no demand for them. Yes, I know there are some just now coming out. I mean ALREADY available. This is America after all. Where are the Vic Edlebrocks of steering components?

B-body spindles, F-body spindles, Impala spindles, Camaro spindles, dropped spindles. This one works with that but doesn't correct so-and-so but that one corrects so-and-so but not something else. And NONE of it is for Chevelles. If ATS can design a new spindle from scratch for a Camaro, then why doesn't someone do the same for us? One that is as nice as the AFX piece AND corrects all the geometry problems. Not some piece that needs an "adapter" or special ball joints.

I did the math and the AFX spindles, while pricey by themselves, give you a better over-all cost because they allow for less expensive brake kits etc. Since this IS the Pro-Touring thread, I'm gonna take for granted that almost everyone reading this wants 13" rotors,17" or 18" wheels and about a 2" drop. Most of us are never gonna race our cars. (drag racing is a whole different subject. start your own thread) We might take a spin on "open track" day or something but really, we just want them to look mean, stop better and steer properly. Maybe we WON"T ever notice bump-steer, but we don't want it anyway. Maybe those little holes DO lead to cracks. SO WHAT? Cross-drilled and slotted 13" rotors LOOK COOL behind our wheels.

Seems to me, the first guy to step-up with a Chevelle specific spindle is gonna make a fortune. I read a whole bunch of posts from the Camaro site from early last summer, before the AFX spindles came out. Those Camaro guys were wanting to put down money before production had even started! And who decided that Impalas were more important than Chevelles? Chevelle-the red-haired step-child!!

Dear Santa: all I want for Christmas is a spindle/steering arm combo that corrects all the steering geometry problems without using any parts from any other car. It needs to allow me to use any brake system I want without special brackets, within reason. Preferably brakes ALREADY on the market. I like the C5/C6 stuff myself because it's cheaper. I plan on using 17" or 18" wheels. Lastly, it should lower the front-end 1"-2" or allow the use of lowering springs and still function properly. No bump-steer, no camber/caster issues, no balljoint bind, no parts from Camaros or Impalas or Fiats. If it costs a little more, fine. I'd waste more money buying parts for mis-matched systems that may-or-may-not work anyway. Thank-you. Scott.

p/s thanks for the Summit gift certificate and Led Zeppelin IV CD.

GN spindles use GN hubs, other than that they are very similar. GN hubs use huge bearings and huge hub registers, the large hub registers require special wheels or the wheel centers machined over sized.

A true bolt on spindle that uses stock ball joints and CBB huh? Willing to spend AFX type money huh? Business opportunity perhaps...

GN spindles use GN hubs, other than that they are very similar. GN hubs use huge bearings and huge hub registers, the large hub registers require special wheels or the wheel centers machined over sized.

Thanks Denny. I'm on the bandwagon with what your building, just may have to pick a few parts used.

Glad you and alot of other guys here are willing to share their knowledge.

A true bolt on spindle that uses stock ball joints and CBB huh? Willing to spend AFX type money huh? Business opportunity perhaps...

And I know solid modelling, some stress analysis (and am good friends with 2 PhD's who do it for a living), and I also have contacts in the aluminum forging business... hmmmmmmm. :)

I think the reason we haven't seen all the super-cool suspension bits for Chevelles is because we're an much, much smaller market than the F-body crowd. How many cool suspension bits do you see for F-body cars compared to Chevelles? It's a HUGE difference... and here's my hunch why we have that disparity. It's not becuase you can't build a good handling suspension for an A-body, it's because the A-body market is smaller, which will drive up the per-unit prices because all the upfront tooling/design/R&D will be spread out over a smaller market, and that higher price will drive away even more of your potential buyers.

Another issue I see is that radical suspension changes on an F-body are pretty easy, at least in front: you simply swap out the front subframe for any number of aftermarket ones-- Mustang II (blech), C4-based, C5 based, etc. Offering something similar for a full-frame car like ours would be an uphill battle, as you're faced with the much higher cost of a full-frame replacement. Once again, that means more money which places you out of reach of a very high percentage of people who may be interested in it.

Concerning the CBB's on the Coleman spindles, just a thought: Coleman offers brackets to bolt on a standard GM caliper, essentially turning them into stock-style GM spindles. Thus, I bet you could use an off-the-shelf GM spindle to PBR adapter bracket in conjunction with the Coleman brackets and reuse your current C4/C5 brakes. Just a thought.

Again, the sticking point here is the hubs/rotors-- still working on that!

Troy

Just a few thoughts for contrast. I know that much of what's been written was based on the premise of a "budget build". I've seen the ads for brake kits that offer turned down drum hubs to fit C5 brakes etc. I know that many of you have access to lathes and stuff and can do all that yourself. I could too if I had the machines. But I don't. What I do have is my hard earned money and a desire to build the best car I can. What I don't have is the patience to run around to junk yards looking for drum spindles with the hubs on them to take to a machinist or to mix and match various pieces hoping that I hit the right combination.

I got the new Jegs catalog yesterday and wanted to compare costs. This is just an example for comparison purposes. Parts listed will fit my 70 without modification of any kind.

Currie 9" hosing w/31 spl axles....$1157
Currie 9+ third member 3.75........$976
Currie 11" rear disc kit................$413

That's $2546 before you add suspension. By contrast, the AFX spindles come with the Corvette hub installed and mounting ears for multilple brake systems at $625. Add $950 for a C5 brake kit and $460 for a set of adj uppers. That's $2035 before springs and shocks.

I'm wondering how many people told Currie it was not going to be cost effective to build Ford style rearends to go into Chevys? There will always be plenty of guys out there willing to pay for the right part. Over $500 for a radiator, $800+ for bucket seats or $400 EACH for billet wheels. Lots of guys spending that kind of money everyday.

$625 to eliminate the steering boogey-man seems reasonable, in comparison. Just some food for thought.

Currie 9" hosing w/31 spl axles....$1157
Currie 9+ third member 3.75........$976
Currie 11" rear disc kit................$413

That's $2546 before you add suspension.
How about 995.00 for a full floater kit with brackets and internals and 295.00 for the brakes. Add your 976.00 3rd member and now you have a better rear axle for 2266.00.

what works better del a lum or poly urethane for the front end? whats the best upper control arm? and best shock for the dollar. thanks. Kevin

what works better del a lum or poly urethane for the front end? whats the best upper control arm? and best shock for the dollar. thanks. Kevin
Del a lum is better than poly, as it rotates more freely than poly does. (delrin acts as a bearing, so there's very little resistance, poly is "sticky" that's why they squeak)

Best upper arm for the money IMHO, is the SPC adjustable with solid greasable bushings for $269 from www.scandc.com (http://www.scandc.com)

Shocks: Billstein, Koni, QA1, and Edelbrock are all good, KYB sucks. Buy adjustable ones if you can afford it.

A true bolt on spindle that uses stock ball joints and CBB huh? Willing to spend AFX type money huh? Business opportunity perhaps...
Build them and I'll buy a pair. Be nice if I could keep my C4 brakes but if I have to change,so be it,Denny.

$400 wheels? I wish. My pin-drive PSE's cost almost double that.

Denny, you seen these?

http://www.stockcarproducts.com/susp24a.htm

I don't know what snout they're made for (it appears to be GN but they don't flat out say it), but it looks like they're worth a call to verify both the intended snout and the register diameter. I didn't get a chance to call them today.

I suppose if they're GN you could order up the Colemans with the GN snout and run these things.

Still looking for a 5 x 4.75 bolt pattern hub with a standard size wheel register...

Troy

Oh yeah, I know all about them. I was very close to ordering the Coleman uprights with GN snouts.

Call, me crazy, you won't be the first, but it seems all the problem is the spindle pin. Isn't that a sperate piece on the Coleman spindle. Has anyone approached them about how many orders it would take for them to justify making a chevelle pin for their exisiting parts. They allready build multiple pins and adapters. If it wasn't a huge number, maybe it could be a group puchase. Seem to be quite a bit of interest here and they wouldn't be designing a spindle, just milling one to a-body specs.

Just a thought.

Has anyone looked into using a different bearing and race in the stock hub? I have been looking at this, it looks like an A13 bearing is a very close match for the inner and the A12 bore is just a little to big for the outer.

72 chevelle
outer A2
(cone length=0.475 Bore=0.75 outer diameter=1.781 width=0.61 standout=0.135 cup length=.475 cone radius=1.046)
Inner A6
(cone length=0.465 Bore=1.25 outer diameter=2.328 width=0.625 standout=0.16 cup length=.465)

72 Impala
outer A3
(cone length=0.55 Bore=0.8437 outer diameter=1.9687 width=0.69 standout=0.14 cup length=.55 cone radius=1.046)
inner A5
(cone length=0.55 Bore=1.375 outer diameter=2.5625 width=0.71 standout=0.16 cup length=.55)

Impala spindle w/ Chevelle Hub
outer A12
(cone length=0.475 Bore=0.8611 outer diameter=1.781 width=0.61 standout=0.135 cup length=.475 cone radius=1.05)
inner A13
(cone length=0.47 Bore=1.3772 outer diameter=2.328 width=0.625 standout=0.155 cup length=.47 cone radius 1.203)

If my theory is completely flawed please correct me.

Say you get bearings to fit. The other problem you'll run into is the spindle snout lengths are different. The bearings in an Impala hub are spaced farther apart than in an A-body or late B-body. Also, don't forget the inner bearing seal.

Yeah Shep, I've been doing the same homework. It's not looking good for getting a different hub to fit, going to have to go ahead with original plan of maching an Impala hub to fit and re-drill the bolt circle. I'm still working on finding a lower ball joint that is easier to work with. It's tough to find specs on ball joints.

Hey Denny,

Hate to ask twice but coleman makes a lot of different spindle snouts, and they wouldn't be facing any of the liability issues of someone make a chevelle spindle. Am I way off base or would this not be good for them and us. If not I guess I'll be looking for impala rotors and a good machinist.

Dennis,

What about Coleman's aluminum or steel Impala hubs? I didn't ask about the steel one's but they told me the aluminum hubs are dual drilled 5 x 5 and 5 x 4.75. I know they're pretty pricey but other than the cost, would they be an option?

I think the reason we haven't seen all the super-cool suspension bits for Chevelles is because we're an much, much smaller market than the F-body crowd. How many cool suspension bits do you see for F-body cars compared to Chevelles? It's a HUGE difference... and here's my hunch why we have that disparity. It's not becuase you can't build a good handling suspension for an A-body, it's because the A-body market is smaller, which will drive up the per-unit prices because all the upfront tooling/design/R&D will be spread out over a smaller market, and that higher price will drive away even more of your potential buyers.


But is the A-body market really that much smaller? Sure F-bodies are popular, and they are all 2 doors, and alot more were produced each year, but A-bodies have 9-years of production (versus 3 for the early F-Bodies). Are alot of the F-body parts used on second gen cars too? Plus, with A-bodies, there are the Olds/Buick/Pontiac guys too... I don't know if its really a huge disparity in numbers, or if its just assumed. If all your competitors are marketing F-body parts, then you'll "see" a large potential market...

I guess it doesn't help that the F-bodies are smaller/lighter, and therefore deemed a better choice for handling/performance...

Sure they could weld a Chevelle spindle to their uprights....but at what expense? Anything custom comes with a custom price tag and I'm looking to keep this project reasonable. I could have gone the GN route but this is as much for the community as it is for me. Most guys are not willing to go full blown custom for a variety of reasons; replacement parts, serviceable items, cost, amount of fabrication work to get them installed, and amount of irreversible work done to the frame/chassis.

I looked at the Impala hubs from Coleman, $$$$. I can do that for myself but I want to find a DIY alternative for those not looking to spend 1K just on uprights and hubs.

So far I'm into my hub assemblies about 65.00 for the pair at my cost. I still need to finish machine the OD of the hub and have the bolt circle re-drilled. I figure under 100.00 for the pair. Of course I still need to buy rotor hats which come as part of the Coleman hubs.

As for the ball joints, the uppers are the obvious Chevy truck stud taper, I think the late Impala stud is the same so you "B" spindle guys are OK. The lower is early Impala, no other BJ will work. They measure 2.190 OD at the base, the "A" body measures 2.010 so there needs to be a little machine work done (~.180"). There appears to be PLENTY of material for milling, the BJ socket wall is huge, I'd guess .400" or so. I'm not willing to cut apart a brand new $40 ball joint to see, I'll have it machined and then sonic checked for wall thickness.

Doesn't the ATS spindle use an insert for the ball joint taper? What about something like that? I saw that you were going to use an adapter anyway. Are the inserts a wear item if so shouldn't they have replacement parts. Just throwing out ideas.

Yes, the adaptors will work fine. I am going to the Impala ball joint for numerous reasons not the least of which is I am due for new joints anyways.

I`ll field a few questions asked earlier. The ATS AFX spindles for the A body should be ready shortly. We`re working with ATS right now on A body specific steering arms that`ll optimize the steering as much as possible without changing the rest of the steering gear. The spindles and hub/bearing assys. aren`t dirt cheap but they accept relatively inexpensive C5/C6 brake components you can pick up anywhere. The C5 brakes are in a whole different league than the old 12"/single piston iron caliper brakes and all of the components are much lighter too. We`ll be selling them in packages with adj. tubular arms specific to the AFX spindles so the geometry and alignment range will be as good as they possibly can be.
BTW there`s another "tall" spindle on the market that advertises better bumpsteer on F bodys AND A bodys. Odd since the Camaro arms need to be dropped about .500" at the tie rod end and the Chevelle arms need to be *raised* roughly .625" for best bumpsteer. That`s why ATS is going the extra mile to build A body specific steering arms.
Everyone claims ZERO bumpsteer these days. I often thought it would be fun to walk around a big hot rod trade show with the bumpsteer gauge under my arm just to watch people sweat. :D
There were also a few questions about our Street Comp Stage 2 package. Yes,it`s about 1" taller than stock overall,which combined with about a 2" drop in ride height and our recomended alignment specs yields a nice negative camber curve,an RC height of about +2.5",less than half of the stock RC lateral migration and about an 80% reduction in bumpsteer. These are round figures,they vary with ride height,wheel offset,tire height etc. but they`re in the ball park. The AFX tall spindles yield similar numbers but are a bit more aggressive in the corners due to their slightly higher KPI. We haven`t done any on road/track testing with the AFX spindles yet but the numbers are close enough to our popular Stage 2 package that I have no doubt it`s going to work extremely well. We`ve done a LOT of testing with the Stage 2 packages and we`re really happy with them. Combined with properly selected springs,shocks etc. they have great road feel,crisp turn in,they corner nice and flat and they`re super predictable. It`s really neat to be able to fling a big block Chevelle into the turns like a sports car,roll into the throttle and come out at WOT in a nice controlled 4 wheel drift. :) We`re also getting over 30,000 miles of tire life with them,even with a great deal of hard driving.
We`ve done a LOT of different custom suspensions at our shop in the last 22 years from old school street rods to GT1 road race cars. Some look great on paper but don`t actually work or drive that great. Some worked well but wore tires out quickly or had a peculiar trait (tramlining,a shimmy on uneven pavement etc.) It`s taught us to emphasize good solid,simple designs and geometry. It`s possible to build a "better" design that`s just plain quirky or unpleasant to drive. Ask any professional race car engineer,they don`t always behave the way they "should". ;) That may not sound very trick but we`re much more interested in the pragmatic than the esoteric. Mark SC&C

Marcus, will ATS be selling their A-body steering arms separately? How would those work on the Fatman Spindle?

Derek-
We will offer the arms seperatley for those who want to try it on another application, but we can't even begin to say what they will or will not do on another spindle. Fatman didn't do their homework for you A body guys, and I'm not sure that our steering arm can correct their spindle's shortcomings.

Tyler

With the current setup on anyone’s Chevelle who purchased the whole tall spindle system from Baer including the spindles, two piece rotor and hat assembly, and PBR Calipers....it would be nice as mentioned earlier in this lengthy thread if someone could provide a kit which adapts the C4 type PBR caliper (and rotor/hat) which comes with the Bear kit. I don't want to push any manufacturer to listen to every request, just something to keep in mind. If you think about it there are two types of groups looking for this "better than most spindle modifications" we have available out there....the type like me who already have time and money invested in the Baer system, and the type who will avoid the tall spindles out there because of all that has been written about the drawbacks.....so what I am saying is that there are a lot of us who would buy a proven system that could use some of the hardware we already own and adapt it to the newer systems some of you are developing out there like ATS. I will however be watching real close to all this as things unfold....in the meantime I already got the stiffer springs to limit suspension travel in order to deal with the bump steer issue. And as someone pointed out earlier, it is not as noticeable around town driving....it is when you get into higher speed driving (50 - 80 MPH) and whoop-de-doos on highway-like roads around town. (Not referring to closed road race courses). If ATS only manufactures spindles that only work with C5/C6 calipers and rotors....then that will have to be the way (most likely) to go. There are a few other developments going on here, such as some Impala parts, or other... The Corvette parts can be had so that is an option....the cost for the ATS spindles is high but within my reach. Would I go for a less expensive alternative? It depends on the test results and performance/stability/safety factor behind them. I'm not saying that cost is no object here, but if I remember correctly, ATS said they had a safety factor of 5 built into the spindle.....for me I prefer to have bolt on parts at this time in my life with a family, full time job and children to keep amused every day after work and weekends. There is little time for creative modifications to the car at this time....hence bolt on. I still listen carefully and critically to all posts, never meaning to criticize anyone’s efforts because if I had the time and space, I too would be helping develop something better for us A body people. Dam that steering arm on those B spindles......By the way, I spoke some with a Baer representative last week....seemed like he didn't know anything about the bump steer problem inherent in their track system....in fact he asked me if I had their bump steer tie rod eliminator to dial out the toe change.....yeah I do but it is adjusting in the wrong direction I told him.....I need to go upward (and back) with the tie rod and that is impossible.....surprised those guys don't tune into these kind of discussion threads to provide support like some other concerned business owners (or entrepreneurs) do.....Sam

Derek-
We will offer the arms seperatley for those who want to try it on another application, but we can't even begin to say what they will or will not do on another spindle. Fatman didn't do their homework for you A body guys, and I'm not sure that our steering arm can correct their spindle's shortcomings.

Tyler
C'mon Tyler, they did their "A" body homework as much as you guys did. The spindle works fine on "F" bodies but requires more work like your do. What is so different between the 2 not going into steering arms? They are both dropped pin and both increased height with very little added to KPI, sounds very similiar to me.

I can`t speak for Tyler but the differences as I see them are,the overall height of the spindles,the drop of the spindles,the brake mounting,the bearings,the KPI and the material they`re constructed of. As far as I can tell the only thing that isn`t totally different is the dropped steering arms holes and even they`re different by .014". At the end of the day though the biggest difference is that ATS knew the spindles would need A body specific steering arms and refuses to release their A body package until they`re done and done right. Brand F has simply changed the names and pics in their Camaro ad copy and gone on their merry way. Mark SC&C

I can`t speak for Tyler but the differences as I see them are,the overall height of the spindlesA negligible amount
The drop of the spindlesAgain a minute difference
The brake mountingmakes no impact unless you wanted to run C5 brakes
The bearingsthe sealed is a cool feature
The KPI what is the ATS vs. the Fatman KPI actual numbers?
And the material they’re constructed of.Has no bearing on how it performs

As you can see none of these make a substantial difference between the 2, certainly not enough to bash the other guy’s product.

Dennis-
Get real, that was hardly a bash.
A company that states 'Zero Bumpsteer' on an A body spindle that includes no steering arm (or mention of it) has not done the homework required to make such a claim. Not a bash, just a fact. I also feel that the pin drop is a huge difference between our AFX spindles, and the G-Force.
7/8" (ATS) and 2" (FM) is pretty significant, especially when trying to get a wider rim on a car. You know as well as I do the issues drop spindles cause with steering arm to rim clearance.

Brake fitment wise, Baer, Wilwood and SSBC have agreed to begin working on brake packages that are exclusive to the AFX spindle that go under the 13" C5 rotor diameter, so you guys with the 16" and under rim sizes won't be left out.

Unsprung weight should be a factor in your mind when you look at materials used in construction. Our spindle goes beyond GM in terms of construction, and longevity of the product. The ball joint inserts alone is a sign that we thought about the A body guys when designing this spindle, it is not a product we just imported into our A body development. It was a side by side process with the A/F body cars. The A body required a bit more thought and additional testing than the F body, but we were able to use the same tooling. By doing so, we kept the costs lower so we could sell at a reasonable price for such a well engineered and technologically advanced item.

You do not see Fatman jump on this board to give any tech regarding their spindle, let alone that we encourage independent testing of our products to a company that has a competing system. We care about handling, and are willing to go to most any length to make our products correctly, include hand them over to SC&C for a thorough independent test. (We even contacted Global West and Hotchkis to shoot some tubular A arms Marcus's way so we would know exactly what combos will work the best for the A body chassis.)

Tyler

I would also like to add that the location of the steer arm also depends a lot on your recommended caster settings. By changing your caster you are moving your tie rod up or down by a quite substantial amount which affects bumpsteer greatly. We include the recommended caster setting for our stuff because we have to in order to make the bumpsteer minimal for where we designed the steer arm to be. We don't know what fatman recommends for caster settings, so that is also another factor to consider if you did decide to use our steering arms. We are not saying they will not physically bolt on or that they won't work, but unless you know ALL the factors and how to effectively apply them they will not be optimal. By all means we'll sell them to you for whatever you want to use them for.

Also some are implying that our spindles are high dollar items. If you start adding everything up they really are not. They are $625/pair with Brand new C5 sealed bearing packs and wheel speed sensors, speed sensor bracket, and steer arm hardware. Even if you go to Autozone for just the bearing packs your are going to spend about $350. You can't just compare these to the others that are out there because they don't include the bearings or the hubs or the steer arm hardware.

I also wanted to re-itterate that we are by no means bashing any other product just stating the facts so the customer is not suprised or confused. Most everyone for a long time has known that taller spindles on A, F, X, and G body models has improved camber curves. Until recently that spindle has been the B-Body spindle. Now we have that option to improve the short comings of that spindle. Global West had done it quite effectively with their CAT 5 system but that requires a new steering linkage to correct it's steer arm dilema. We have basically done what Global West has done with a greater initial investment (for us), but with the same results, a better bearing cartridge and brake options, fewer parts, and at a cheaper price for our customers.

We are working with Marcus at SC&C for the A and G body platforms because he's been doing it for many years and knows what physically works on these cars. These spindles are not just another retrofit. No one who currently has the B-Body spindles has complained about anything other than the bumpsteer which we have solved. Ask anyone who has a CAT 5 system on their car how they like it. No one can argue that our package will not drastically improve your handling from stock period.

Shane

The brand "F" spindle has about 1" more pin drop than the AFX, not much really and in this application it works better as long as steering arm clearance is not an issue (most guys looking for improved handling are not trying to run 15" wheels).

If you guys have followed some of the other threads going on, you would know I do recommend the AFX spindle as an alternative. I do not however think is near perfect enough to point out the flaws or short comings of others very similar products in way of geometry measurements. Of course the unsprung weight advantage is a nice feature, one of the few that separate the new crop of spindle offerings however.

Caster settings can only be optimized if you also dictate exact ride height as well. Recommending a caster setting of 4* or whatever is only the optimum setting if every chassis is the same height as your test mule, otherwise all numbers go out the window.

The only thing GW has done quite effectively is brain wash the general public that their "negative roll " package is something other than "B" spindles with a shorter/stiffer spring and some tubular arms. Nothing that can't easily be duplicated with boneyard parts for 3k less. The CAT5 system does nothing to address the FRCH of below ground level nor the lateral movement of said roll center over 8" in max roll conditions.

Caster settings can only be optimized if you also dictate exact ride height as well. Recommending a caster setting of 4* or whatever is only the optimum setting if every chassis is the same height as your test mule, otherwise all numbers go out the window.

I completely agree. We assume a tire and drop that is the majority choice for our customer base and direct from there. I was merely pointing out that anyone that starts collecting parts and putting them together is going to get different results and most likely unsatisfactory results if they do not know all the facts. So like for instance you use our steer arms on a fatman spindle. Just run your bumpsteer measurements and optimize it with your caster settings. No problem.



Dennis we have seen your recommendations and we DO appreciate that.

Now lets call a spade a spade. We can go into spring, shock, car weight bias, type of driver, type of tire, road surface, blah blah blah and discredit little things here and there about any system. It depends on your car and how and where you drive it PERIOD. I think we can all agree that unless you are very well versed in suspension design and kinematics and can build your own suspension components you're are not going to get the hands down perfect system for your particular car, THEREFORE thats why we are offering a complete system that will guarrentee drastic improved handling and that will cator to our client base in the most effective manner.

I applaud Dennis' efforts to build the ultimate system for his car and others that want to do the same. And in order for those of you that are striving to take this approach we are coming on here to simply point out all the facts. Even the setup Dennis is putting together may be kick ass for his car with his drop (which is like 4-5" isn't it?), his tires, his weight, blah blah blah, BUT if your car isn't set up the same as he has it in his program you also will not get the same results. Same goes for ours. No one setup is "perfect" for your particular car or driving style unless you either design it yourself, pick the system you think works best for you and your setup, or just can't push it hard enough to know the difference.

We are merely here to educate (as is Dennis) and let you know that we are putting together a system that WILL inarguably improve your stock A Body's handling and feel. We are working with people that have particular experience with this chassis and we will not release ANYTHING until our setup complete. We are also stepping to the plate to see what kind of results you will get with different combinations that are common. Some have already done the B-Body spindle swap, for instance, that's why we have inserts for your ball joint tapers, thats why we have contacted Hotchkis and Global West to check the geometry of their UCA's with our spindle. We are doing everything we can to cator to almost any car's setup.

Bottom line it comes down to which setup feels right for you, makes the car perform, and matches your preferences (i.e. type of brakes, type of bearing, how much of a drop, what type springs, etc.) This is a new product, as are others, but working with the "A/G Body Guru" Marcus who has experience driving these cars will without a doubt land us in that favorable market.

Please note that we are not coming in here to discredit anyone or any product. We are here to inform on what we know. I don't know if Fatman know's about there steer arm dilema for A-Bodies, or that running a stock UCA will cause bind issues, but we are here to let you know that we have looked at those issues and are solving them. And if the other vendors are aware and also have these solutions... great. If there is something that you are confused on give us a call and we'll try to help no matter what setup you have.

Dennis I think we are both on the same page here now, don't you agree? Can we be friends again now? haha

Shane

Dennis I think we are both on the same page here now, don't you agree? Can we be friends again now? haha

Shane
No!!!





OK, maybe. :p

This thread is amazing. I have learned so much about suspensions and design options. I just have a suggestion. Instead of talking back and forth about what will work and what won't. Why not just make your own recipe for a suspension setup and the pro's and con's of each. Let the reader decide what to do based on the recipes you publish. Because I'm not sure about the rest of the people reading this thread, but I'm starting to get lost in all of the information provided.:confused:

Just a suggestion.:)

Format example:

Recipe:

Pro's of setup:

Con's of setup:

Thanks

Rob:beers:

Do I feel a group hug coming on? :D

Rob,that`s a great idea. Although....you may get just as much disagreement. ;)

Denny,I`ve run the geometry on both the FatMan spindles (always take a small tape measure and notebook to trade shows ;) ) and ATS spindles and there is actually a pretty fair amount of difference. In a vacume the extra 1.25" drop reduces RC lateral migration BUT say the car owner wants a total 2" drop (BTW 1.5"-2" drop is what 99% of our customers want) and it`s a 2" drop spindle you can`t use spring drop to improve the angles of the suspension arms so the spindle height alone has to do all the work. With the smaller drop of the AFX spindles (or our Stage 2) you can use commonly available 1.5" drop springs (Eibach Pro,Hotchkis etc.) and achieve better overall geometry.
Your points about given parts or alignment specs etc. only being perfectly applicable for one car`s overall configuration have some merit. Although the geometry and handling of these cars is so bad out of the box by todays standards we can make really large improvements before we need to be really concerned. That`s exactly why we don`t have a shopping cart on our site! We talk to every customer,find out what they want out of their car and recomend a combination of parts,spring,shocks etc. etc. that`ll work really well for them. If their combo is unusual we`ll alter the specs or parts to suit it. There`s no magic bullets but if you know what your target is (as you do with your Elky) then it`s not that hard to pick the right bullets to get the job done. Mark SC&C

Yeah Marcus, I'll concede that every car is different and no one part or selection of parts is going to work on every one of them. I also agree that they are so bad stock that any improvement is usually perceived as the holy grail upgrade (see guys running poly bushings in the rear arms, increase the roll stiffness via mechanical bind and viola, it handles great). I often forget that some guys want to add performance parts but not really for a performance reason (who goes through the trouble of tearing the whole front-end down and only drops it a couple inches). I would love a head to head when we get this all hashed out, probably the closest is ATS so I'll take on Shane’s "A" body, I'll even leave the rear alone for the time being (no 3-link vs. C4L advantage). :thumbsup:

Unfortunately (and lucky for you ;) ) my poor Chevelle is out of commision and is set to go under major surgery. (BTW anyone need a fresh nasty BBC) Regardless, our cars are quite different in engine, power, transmission, weight (big time), brakes, blah blah blah. Apples to Oranges my sneeky little friend. Might be interesting to swap on your car though since you already have the C5 brakes and the ability to adjust ride height and spring rate quite easily. But seriously we are not going to prove that any system is the better system for anything other than your exact setup for that track and for that particular person's (in this case Mr. "In the dirt" himself) driving style. I am quite confidant that with the right spring combo, ride height and such that both systems would be fairly comparable and on the street have negligable differences.

We do plan on having track days here whenever we get our move finalized and aren't running around like chickens with there heads cut off. So we will be doing some real life track testing and would like to pass that option on to the customers that come by to see what they think. As I said (as did Marcus) our geometry is almost exact to that of Marcus' proven Stage II setup. It works very good. Anything beyond that at this point is pretty much all talk and scribbles until there are more on the road giving feedback.

I am planning on putting our setup on my Grand National though...that is after I replace my blown head gasket (too much boost oops!)

Dennis, by the way I was reading your finally-updated website and was briefly excited to see you talking about the longer control arms until you said that was far off. I'm really surprised I haven't seen anyone do this yet especially with the hoards of Corvette rims laying around. It's like the tall spindle thing, a no brainer for improvement in geometry. Also I may have missed it on your site, but what rate of springs are you running and what size sway bar. Just curious.

Anyways carry on...

Longer LCA's are probably next year, too much going on and I don't want it down for O/T season.

Current spring combo is 950/175 although the 175 have been mutilated so they are probably more like 225's or so. No sta-bars front or rear. Speedway front bar in the works.

What effect will the longer LCA's have on the rest of the geometry, tall spindles, UCA's, etc.

Hey- Shaniac!

There's a '67 wagon in need of front suspension upgrades...but it's gotta be really low.

I'll let ya prototype on it...LOL!!

Seriously- let me know if there's a story in this...you know I love you guys!!

~SP~

What effect will the longer LCA's have on the rest of the geometry, tall spindles, UCA's, etc.

The biggest benefits are better scrub radius (because you can now run much deeper backspace wheels) and the suspension will have reduced lateral scrub as it moves in bump and rebound. UCA's will need to be correspondingly longer if the upper pickup point is not moved.

On the negative side... the suspension will also have a reduced motion ratio as the distance from the inner pivot to LBJ will increase but the distance from the inner pivot to spring perch will remain the same-- you'll have to run proportionally stiffer springs. The disadantage here is the reduced motion ratio means the shock is a bit further from ideal, as now there will be more wheel movement per a given shock movement... but you could always pull a circle track trick and move the shock outboard of the spring and tie it into the outside of the frame and mount it further out on the LCA where it will be more effective.

In this case I'm quite certain the benefits (much better scrub radius) will outweigh the negative impact on the motion ratio.

Troy

Scotty!! What's up man. Hell yeah give us a call, I really would love to drag Tyler up to the good ol' Midwest cold weather again. Good times.

Shane

A head to head "shootout" would be fun. Shame we`re all so far apart I`ll bet a day at the track together would be a blast! I know it`s not a Chevelle but I`d love to bring our `87 Cutlass test mule (LS1,6 speed,SC&C G-5 front suspension,SC&C 3 link/phb rear suspension,SC&C adj. tubular swaybars,weight jacks,cage etc.). :)
FWIW we did two custom long arm suspensions 3 or 4 years ago which allowed the use of 4thGen or C5 front wheels on a G body. I got around the motion ratio problem by converting to coil overs and made adj. lower mounts on the tubular lower arms I fabbed (there were no factory G body tube lowers at the time). As far as I know neither car was ever finished though which is a real shame. :( Mark SC&C

(BTW anyone need a fresh nasty BBC)

Sort of off topic but whats going in its place?

Sort of off topic but whats going in its place?

Well my curious little friend, I can't release much information other than it will be built off the new Warhawk block. Basically looking for something with better gas mileage, and "could" be used to drive every day. Something lighter and fuel injected. My BBC is awesome and will compress your spinal cord and turns your eyeballs into pancakes against your skull socket when it pulls up to 6800rpm, but it was built more for drag racing and boulevard bruising. I'm taking my car in a completely different direction.

Shane

Well my curious little friend, I can't release much information other than it will be built off the new Warhawk block. Basically looking for something with better gas mileage, and "could" be used to drive every day. Something lighter and fuel injected. My BBC is awesome and will compress your spinal cord and turns your eyeballs into pancakes against your skull socket when it pulls up to 6800rpm, but it was built more for drag racing and boulevard bruising. I'm taking my car in a completely different direction.

Shane


Sweet!! I was posting on LS1tech about the Warhawk blocks. We'll be looking some custom long tubes to go on the market soon. Looking forward to the new version of the car.

If you go tall deck please fab up some headers to work with a std. deck LSx motor and the ATS mounts.

I am so glad that Dennis is taking the heat from the tall spindle faithful, I was getting tried of telling people about its short comings. I did one of the conversion long before most of you have ever even hear of it, back in the 1980's. We had nothing but heartache from this swap, and found with all that is truly needed to make it close to acceptable swap, then the cost was out of reason. I personally just run the stock disc brake spindle, good springs, reasonable sway bars, high quality shock, and good alignment settings. I have been looking at the ATS spindles and believe they hold promise when ATS does a steering arm that is correct, which when I talked to them at SEMA they were working on that.

I am so glad that Dennis is taking the heat from the tall spindle faithful.
Thanks Brian

Interesting!

Did anyone ever come up with a good brake setup for the Coleman spindle using a modified Impalla rotor as a hub.




P.S. Any of you guys going to the Corvette Expo in Knoxville, TN this weekend.

Did anyone ever come up with a good brake setup for the Coleman spindle using a modified Impalla rotor as a hub.

No. I've decided on the easy way out-- Coleman Impala aluminum hubs drilled for 5 x 4.75 studs (special order) and I'm going to use 13" x 1.25" Coleman rotors (the hub takes a 8 on 7" bolt circle rotor.) That and Wilwood Forged Superlite II's for 1.25" thick rotors. About $600 for the hubs/races/bearings, $290 for the rotors, and $300 for calipers.

I would have ordered it all by now but my simple "cam and valvespring swap" has snowballed into the 4 digit range after finding a couple minor internal engine issues; nothing major but I suffer from severe "while I'm here I might as well..." syndrome. That and I'm and having a custom Canton road-race oil pan fabbed up. All you guys with small blocks and 1.75" hooker super comp headers stay tuned, there may be an off-the-shelf pan available for you soon or you can at least go off my build sheet at Canton. I did a LOT of research and nobody makes a road race style pan for an A-body that will clear the under-the-starter header tube on the Super Comps, so custom mods it is.

Troy

nobody makes a road race style pan for an A-body What qualifies as a road race pan?

Keith, a pan with side sumps and trap doors is what Troy is talking about and with Super Comp headers nothing but a stock pan will fit.

Denny,

Did you come up with anything to fit the Impy rotors, or are the $200 hubs the only way to go.

Still kicking it around Tim, the Coleman hubs and Wilwood rotors I intend to run wil cost ~600 total. The cost of building the Impy rotors into hubs is ~200 + I still to figure out what rotor will position the calipers where they need to be. M..u..s..t r.e..s..i..s..t u.r..g.e t..o t..a.k..e e..a..s..y w..a..y o..u..t.

Still kicking it around Tim, the Coleman hubs and Wilwood rotors I intend to run wil cost ~600 total. The cost of building the Impy rotors into hubs is ~200 + I still to figure out what rotor will position the calipers where they need to be. M..u..s..t r.e..s..i..s..t u.r..g.e t..o t..a.k..e e..a..s..y w..a..y o..u..t.


Is there a caliper that will work to use the factory Impy rotors. They are 11 3/4", thats not the 13" I want, but that might make it a staged project which is much easier on the budget. Would be decent brakes and much improved geometry.

Has anyone used these hubs? They look pretty nice to me, $285 for a pair of AL hubs for the stock spindle.

http://www.kore3.com/proddetail.php?prod=10075

Checked Colemans site again. Looks like I could run the factory Impala rotors (heavy but cheap) with 3.5", 5 1/2", or GM calipers.

Tell me if I'm wrong. If not I may go this route till I find a good deal on hubs and rotors.

I'll run some mock-ups Tim and see how it looks. I may wind up going that route temporarily as well; I just bought the wife a new car so the money train has come to a screeching halt.

OK, I'm back in from the garage, thanks Tim for rekindling this project. I had given up and was going to pick up some Coleman hubs until you brought the DIY method back from the grave. I threw the bearings in the rotors and installed them (mine measure 12" BTW). It looks like the 3.5 Wilwood calipers will bolt up no problem. I may have to machine the bracket a little as ordered the 13" variety anticipating running a 12.5-13" rotor. I'll do some more homework later, I need to see if the wheel register for the hub is going to work or if that needs to be tuned down while I am having the bolt circle re-drilled.

Denny,

This may have been covered but where do Coleman spindles put track width compared to stock. Also I'm assuming I need the the 9" spindle version but have no idea which steering arm.

Tim, I haven't checked on track width yet, it doesn't appear to be a substantial change if any. The steering arms you need are (1) left side front steer arm and (1) left side rear steer arm (which you will turn over and use on the right side).

Tim, I haven't checked on track width yet, it doesn't appear to be a substantial change if any. The steering arms you need are (1) left side front steer arm and (1) left side rear steer arm (which you will turn over and use on the right side).


Hate to sound dense, but what is the 719,6141, and and 727.
Duh, figured it out, ball joint type.

I also know you like NAPA, you may have already checked but they have a drilled/slotted 75 Impy rotor for $114.

Thanks

I also know you like NAPA, you may have already checked but they have a drilled/slotted 75 Impy rotor for $114.

ThanksAm I going to have whip my 12 page anti-drilled/slotted rotor post and beat you with it? :p

Am I going to have whip my 12 page anti-drilled/slotted rotor post and beat you with it? :p

Please no, not that. :eek:

Guess, I'm better off with the cheaper plain ones.

Am, I right in chosing the 9" spindles with a moderate suspension drop?

Yes, you want the 9" version.

Curiousity kills they say, but I just can't help it.

I was never much for drilled rotors, but kind of figured the sloted ones might help clean the surface of road debris.

What do you think?

Slotted rotors done PROPERLY can have a very slight advantage over plain rotors as they have the ability to ever so slightly "clean" the face of the brake pad by shaving contaminants leaving a fresh surface to bite against. The advantage is so minute that you probably wouldn't even see a difference in track times although it may feel better to the driver.

I'm not even going to think about getting into the drilled debate again.

Was thinking more of Interstates and backroads, sand, small pieces of asphalt (crud in general). Figure the slots would give this junk an escape route instead of becoming a part of the pad. Haven't found any slotted though, so I will probably just be going plain.

The track width question was because I will be running 17 x 9.5 wheels with a forth gen camaro offset. If I have to run spacers anyway theres no sense redrilling the rotors, the adapters are just about $20 more.

Wish I had my car on the road, so I could try all this out instead of building it and admiring it in the garage.:sad: Well, back to welding and dreaming I guess.:D

I've been following the Coleman spindle swap idea and am wondering if the bolt-on steering arm is the correct geometry for the a-body as delivered. If so ,great. If not than the cost of building the arm could get interesting. If the new arm only needs to jog parallel or perpendicular to to spindle attaching point than the new piece won't be too expensive to make but if you need a 3-dimensional arm than look-out. This is assuming it's to be of billet construction like the Coleman arm. If its a welded piece (fabricated using the Coleman piece; cut in half, add a length at desired angle, and welded together) it'll be cheaper but not by much.

Its damn close to being perfect as delivered. I'll have the final numbers soon.

Denny,

Did you ever try your C5 calipers to see how far off they will be. Stumbled across a set of c5 calipers at too good a price to pass up, (at least on my car budget).

My current plan is to use the coleman spindles, impala 12" rotors, c5 calipers, and fab a bracket out of 1/4" plate. No track time expected just want a damn good stopping street car, at least for phase one. BTW using a third gen Camaro rear with factory discs.

Opinions anyone.

BTW using a third gen Camaro rear with factory discs.


Slight hijack here but many want to know: do you have the parking brake hooked up and if so what was necessary?

Slight hijack here but many want to know: do you have the parking brake hooked up and if so what was necessary?

Still in frame off stage, but I'm going to use a centerpull set-up from a Trans-am.

I measured the caliper mount to rotor distance with the rotors installed on the spindles. The center of the caliper needs to be 1.35-1.50" from the point at which it mounts to the bracket. Most Wilwood style fixed mount calipers are 1.56” or so, just about perfect. I’m going to leave the C5 stuff all together to make a nice eBay package deal later (attempt to recoup some costs by selling the modified spindle, hub assemblies, rotors, calipers etc.., there are still some devout “tall” spindle followers out there).

Dennis, concerning your bumpsteer issues. Would it be feasable to use a heim with a bolt going through it and the spindle with a shim in between them to correct bumpsteer on a street car? We do this on circle track cars but, I'm not sure of their legality for street use.

A picture of my tie rods assemblies, is this what you are referring to?

http://onrails.us/images/fronttierods%20(Small).JPG

It helps but the bump steer issue is more than just height, there are length and forward/aft issues as well.

That would be it!:thumbsup:
Nice looking set-up, also.:D

Called Heidts today about there A-body spindles. Though not very forthcoming, the info I got was 1 1/2" upper balljoint raise, 2" spindle raise, and the steering arm bolts to factory location. Took some proding to get that, he said all specs were proprietory. (Like you couldn't buy one and measure it.)

Back to the point. With the info I did get what would that do to the front geometry.

If it is any consolation Tim, almost every spindle builder does that. For some reason they think it much easier to build a spindle based off of some guys numbers over the phone vs. reverse engineering based off of an actual production piece. I went through this a few years ago with Bell-tech, spent most of day arguing with design engineers that if I wanted to "steal" their design, I would buy a pair to copy. They just don't get it.

Tim,you should have asked. I talked to Gary Heidt and got all the specs a few weeks ago. Nice guy,he`s just trying to cover his butt. At least he didn`t move the steering arm holes down for F bodys,then sell it for A bodys still claiming it helped the bumpsteer (like his nearest competitor). ;)
The geometry gain is offset by the fact that with a 2" drop most folks don`t want to drop the car any more with springs. That means you have to A) find springs with a good performance rate that won`t drop the car and B) you don`t get the geometry gains that these cars pickup when you lower the suspension with springs. They also have the same tie rod end/wheel interference issues present on any 2" drop spindle,limiting your choices in the size and backspacing of your wheels. I see them mainly as a nice tidy bolt on for the guy with a totally stock suspension muscle car that wants some rake and a little better handling with stock type springs,shocks,15x7 wheels etc. That`s exactly the market Heidts is targeting and for that they`re at least a step in the right direction. Bear in mind also that with a 1.5" height increase, a nose down rake and stock length upper arms alignment specs will be compromised on many cars. Mark SC&C

I know this is ride-height dependant, but what is the "ideal" effective spindle height on a "stock" Chevelle chassis? What height gives the best balance of camber-gains, FVSA length, and FRCH?

...seems this is the most important part to get right if one were to design a spindle from scratch.

8" of effective height (roughly 9" BJ to BJ) is the magic number. Anything less requires substantial drop to get the UCA in the negative gain position and results in very poor geometry all around, anything more results in SVSA being too short.

As far as having camber-gains, FVSA length, and FRCH all ideal; it totally depends on everything. Spindle height alone is not enough information; you need to determine pivot point heights along with spindle height to determine ideal locations. I look to eliminate RC lateral migration and maintain a FRCH of 1-3", everything else is of minimal importance or can easily be adjusted out later; RCH and lateral migration are deeply imbedded in the design so you have to get it right the first time. Anything over .50* of negative camber gain per inch of bump/roll is typically plenty.

My design at a cross member height of 3” results in a FRCH of 2.5” and less than .25” of lateral RC migration at max roll (obviously much less as the roll degrees drops, the movement is linear). If I were to raise the cross member height more than an inch, lateral movement does not increase much but the FRC increases substantially (a 2” increase raises RC to almost 6”) which is much too high, you can see how every chassis is going to be different and of course every driver is going to desire certain attributes.

In short, there is no simple answer. RC migration in any amount is undesired, FRC should be between 1-3” in any design and bump steer should always be eliminated if possible. Everything else is a compromise depending on exactly what you want the car to do and how want the car to feel.

I have to pretty much agree with Denny (did I say that?). That spindle height yields good numbers on a fairly wide span of ride height. We came to that conclusion about 4 years ago when we did the first prototype Stage 2 package. :) If you desire/need more aggressive camber gain and a slightly higher RC you can use up to 1/2" more overall height. Yes the SVSA and FVSA will be shorter but not to the point that it causes any noticable effect on the road or track. Again ride height plays a big part,at common ride heights (say a 1.5"-2" drop) an extra few 10ths of an inch can get some additional camber gain and work very well. The "ideal" height depends a LOT on the individual car,it`s overall setup and the driver`s preferences. That`s why I like to talk to every customer before they order something so we can put together what`s going to work best for *them*. Don`t forget KPI and spindle pin drop either,both have significant effects. Personally I like just a little effective pin drop which has the effect of reducing lateral RC migration. The AFX spindles have this built in and out Stage 2 does the same with it`s tall lower ball joint. It`s a very imvolved process to get things "ideal" for a given car but bear in mind these car`s suspension geometry is so poor out of the box that it`s still very easy to make BIG improvements. ;) Mark SC&C

I thought that a drum to disc was going to be a pain but never realized it was so controversial. I was under the impression that there were several ways to convert, but I am finding out through this website that there are a few different ways to do it. My question is if I am going to put 15 inch rims on my car why can't I just use parts off another car that had disc brakes like an 80 monte carlo if I change all of the components?

Using parts off of another chassis involves changing the spindles out as every rotor uses a different bearing set. The problem comes in as not all spindles are created equal, they all have a different set of specifications for height, pin height, steering arm height, steering arm length, ball joint taper size, and KPI depending on what the engineers at GM decided that vehicle needed. Finding a different spindle that matches the "A" body specs exactly except with disc brakes is not possible (except from another "A" body that already came with disc brakes).

The taxes are finally gone, so now it time to get back to the car. Still haven't got anything from Heidts. Looks like I'm still on the Coleman bandwagon.

Denny, any new updates ?

Dropped the rotors off at the machinist last Tuesday, should be ready in a few days. The LBJ adapters on in the mail as well. All I am missing are a pair of calipers and a set of brake pads. Hopefully I can do the swap early next month (calipers are expensive).

I also obtained a really nice condition used steering shaft out of a ZJ (I'll post pics later) to eliminate the rag joint completely and remove all slop from the steering. There a pair of metric o-ring to JIC fittings in the mail as well so I can convert all my P/S hoses to AN #6 hose.

I'm trying like hell to be ready for the May 14th event at SoWS (probably won't be ready...$$$), still need a set of tires too and the track fees aint free.

Denny,

What are you doing for upper arms with the coleman spindles, considering the ball joint issues. Are you going to see if Marcus can make up something in the adjustables, or stick with the solid tubing.

Also where did you find circle track arms that fit the upper mount, or did you have them machined.

Gentlemen-
The wait is finally over. The AFX spindles have arrived, steering arm geometry has been tested by Marcus, and the spindles are currently shipping. We are still 3-6 weeks from having all the steering arms in stock, but we can place and hold your order in the meantime. Check our link for more pics over at Team Camaro:
http://www.camaros.net/reviews/showproduct.php?product=73

If you are on our waiting list, and did not get a call last week, we have incorrect info on file. Please get a hold of us asap to hold your slot in line. We have only a few sets not spoken for in this batch, and the pricing will be going up from $625 per pair after they sell out. Steering arms (required for the A/G body cars) are only $175 per pair, and are made from a solid block of billet 7075 T6 aluminum, and come in at 1/3 the weight of a factory arm.

Tyler

OK, getting damn close...I think I have everything. I pulled a wheel tonight and test fit the spindle assembly inside, tie rod clearance will not be an issue for sure. I have everything; I think the only hang up may be the brake line length. I ordered 12" hoses and they may come up short in full droop/turn, we'll see. Hopefully tomorrow I can put this together. Teaser pics-

http://www.onrails.us/images/Wilwood.jpg

Cool doggies.

Just for info... what's the measurement from the face of those calipers to the wheel mounting pad of the hub? I'm slightly worried about caliper face clearance to the backside spoke profile of the wheels.... especially since I just ordered new wheels and neglected this potential problem.

OK, quick response. I am almost done, I pulled into the garage an hour ago to start taking some before measurements and figured what the hell, might as well get 'r done. All that is left is to hook up the tie rods (note: get some 5/8" fine bolts for the tie rods before you start or you will be running into town half-way through the job like me) and re-align it.

Troy, the hub face to rotor lettering is ~.600", I think you wil be OK.

Dennis, I've been trying to follow your progress. One thing that I must have missed is the size of the rotors and their donor vehicle. It sounds like a cool swap, I'm looking for an alternative to my b body spindles now. Keep it coming, very cool stuff, Jake

Here is where I am at; I finished the mechanical side of things then went down to have the new tires mounted. They are way too big in the front for my ride height, mega rubbage. The front brakes are not working, seems they never really have ands I never noticed (even on the track, go figure). They will bleed but with very little pressure. I have always had an assistant to help and attributed low pressure to the assistants light pressure on the pedal, I laid into them and still just got a trickle. It is enough to bleed the air out and get a good pedal but I ran down the street hard and hit the brakes good... barley marked the new rotors. I did put together a page on this at onrails, here is a link- On Rails (http://www.onrails.us/mysuspension.htm) , hopefully I have answered all the questions about this endeavor. I'll update the site and this post once all the bugs are worked out.

A few notes that Troy asked about that were not covered specifically in the link; track width was increased 1/8" total and ride height dropped exactly 1.30" over the "B" spindles.

Can't wait to hear more info/experiences from this setup.

I am getting very, very antsy to ditch my B-body setup after yet another high speed bump steer experience on Saturday... Unfortunately I have 4 new wheels and 2 new tires to pay for, although selling my current wheels should net enough money for the spindles and hubs, and hoping that selling my Baer Track setup will recoup the rest of the cost of the changeover.

I'm still concerned about FRCH at my intended ride height. I want to keep my car "up" a bit more based on the roads/speed bumps/parking lots around here-- shooting to keep it about the same as it is now, which is about 7.9" from the ground to the center of my LCA pivots with 26.1" tall tires-- so still pretty low. Denny, you said your designed x-member height was 3" and anything over 1" higher than that poses likely FRCH problems-- what tire diameter did you base your 3" x-member height off of?

Give me a day or two Troy. I have a new pair of tires due in late tomorrow. I WILL be re-evaluating my ride height and plotting the new real world numbers for a more accurate spread sheet. Final tire size is going to be 255/40 and 275/40 on 17X9.5 and 17X11. I tried running all 4 275's...they don't fit in the front at all.

what happened to the 315's, arent the 275's a little narrow for the 11's? and same with the fronts for a 9.5"? That is the same tire combo i used to have but with an 8 front and a 9.5 rear

315's are long gone never to return. Too much hassle to fit and really not necessary with a 255 on the front. The 275's fit perfect on the 11's and has been confirmed by Kuhmo as a suitable wheel. Running MX's now...great friken tires. The 255's have been on the front for a long time, I tried going to 275's in the front...no good and 265's are too hard to find in the more popular dual purpose tires.

The MX is a really wide tire compared to other tires of the same size.

I bet it's fun trying to get a 275 to bead up on a 11" rim. :D
Quit trying to drag the rocker panels and you might be able to get more rubber under the car,Denny. :D :D My car is probably less than an inch taller than yours and my front 275 Kumhos fit fine w/o clearance problems. Still running the inner fenders,too.

Could you post your finalized front parts list?

I bet it's fun trying to get a 275 to bead up on a 11" rim.

I'm going to have fun in this department shortly too, going to bead up 255s on 9.5" wheels and 285s on 11" wheels-- both combos are the max wheel widths recommended by the tire manufacturers for those sizes. Should have very stiff sidewalls and excellent steering response though... which is exactly what I want!

I'm also giving the Kumho MX's a swing although only in back for now. My current 255/45 Pilot Sports still have half the tread left so they'll go on the new wheels up front, no sense in tossing half-used tires that cost $250 each.

I was contemplating the 275/315 combo but I think the 255/285 combo is going to work and look very good and have less issues.

Denny, are the outer tie rod provisions on those Coleman steering arms straight-drilled and require the use of bolts and rod ends or are they tapered for standard tie rod ends?

The 275 had zero problem beading on the 11's, like I said the MX is a very wide tire. I just did the 255 on the 9.5's like 30 minutes ago. It took me 20 minutes for complete dismount/mount, balance and down the road.

The closer CoG is to the ground, the better it will handle.

Clint, no way you are only an inch taller than me (cars that is), I'll take an LCA measurement tonight when I get home.

Final list and pricing will have to wait until this weekend, too much information.

Troy, the outer tie rods are threaded holes for a 5/8 fine bolt. You will LOVE the MX's, they rock. They balance sooo nice; my Michelins (which are damn good balancing tires) took almost 2 oz. a piece no matter how I indexed the tries. These took less than an ounce for the pair first time.

Troy, the outer tie rods are threaded holes for a 5/8 fine bolt. You will LOVE the MX's, they rock. They balance sooo nice; my Michelins (which are damn good balancing tires) took almost 2 oz. a piece no matter how I indexed the tries. These took less than an ounce for the pair first time.

Cool. My worst Pilot Sport only took 1 oz and the other 3 are between .25 and .75 oz-- but that was after an exhausting "swap and clock session" of all 4 wheels and tires using a Hunter DSP9000 Road Force balancer (badass machine BTW.)

Good to hear the Kumho's don't need much weight; indication of a good tire with uniform wall and tread thickness/rubber density.

Did you make your rod end extension sleeves yourself out of some barstock or does one of the stock car supply places offer them?

I think I have a set of Baer Trackers sitting unused somewhere that I could probably use but they use itty bitty rod ends that I'm not comfortable using.

Clint, no way you are only an inch taller than me (cars that is), I'll take an LCA measurement tonight when I get home.

Final list and pricing will have to wait until this weekend, too much information.

I was comparing how much the top of your front tires are located in relation to your 68's fender lips. My 69's fender lips look to be about one inch higher on its 275/40's than your 255's. You mentioned once that from the center of your frt fender lip to the ground measured around 22.5". Mine measures 23.5" to 23.75",depending on what I'm running for air pressure in my Shockwaves. These numbers are for my car's normal ride height at 85psi. If I want to,I can almost set my car's crossmember on the ground and my Hedman's collectors are resting on the ground.

No rush on the parts list,pal. Just when you get the time.

Right now I sit 5.5" from the center of the front LCA bolt to the ground.

using a Hunter DSP9000 Road Force balancer (badass machine BTW.)Yes, it is.

Did you make your rod end extension sleeves yourself out of some barstock or does one of the stock car supply places offer them?Rod end extensions? I am mounted directly to the steer arm with a couple washers as spacers.

Yes, it is.

Rod end extensions? I am mounted directly to the steer arm with a couple washers as spacers.

No, I meant the extension sleeves between the inner tie rods and the outer rod ends. Are they off the shelf or did you just chop and tap some barstock?

Off the shelf tubing from Speedway.

It was like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole but I managed to get it done. I dropped 13 lbs of unsprung weight per side. :eek: I'm going to B.I.R. Saturday for this event (https://www.nasaproracing.com/nasa_event/show/?event_id=371) to see how it works.

Dennis, what are you torquing your lower ball joint stud nut and the upright to steering arm bolts to?

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/medium/DSC00542.JPG

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/medium/DSC00544.JPG

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/medium/DSC00571.JPG

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/medium/DSC00573.JPG

What is the total cost looking like on this swap?

What kind of lowers are you running Keith?

Keith - That setup looks awesome. :thumbsup:

To answer for Keith: Those are Global West LCAs for coil-overs.

Wow Keith, I had no idea you were that far along. Good to see the Coleman Impala hubs worked.

2 questions:

1. What rotors did you end up using?
2. Same question I asked Denny, but what's the hub to caliper face measurement on those SL6 calipers?

13lbs of unsprung weight savings per side is HUGE!

Keith, did you ever get your hub-snout / center-cap interference problem figured out?

Be sure to get some good video at BIR :thumbsup: ...wish I could make it :(

To answer for Keith: Those are Global West LCAs for coil-overs. You are correct sir!

2 questions:

1. What rotors did you end up using?
2. Same question I asked Denny, but what's the hub to caliper face measurement on those SL6 calipers?

1. I used the same brakes I had before. That was in investment I wasn't about to duplicate. It's the '93-'97 F-Body kit (http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/ds406.pdf)
2. I'm not quite sure what you're asking. You can get the dimensions of the caliper here (http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-Calipers/010-SL6/slr-stmounting.gif).

Keith, did you ever get your hub-snout / center-cap interference problem figured out?
1/4" wheel spacers and I hammered the dust cap flat. That square peg/round hole thing.

What is the total cost looking like on this swap?
It's one of those it all depends things. You can get all the prices on Coleman's website (http://www.colemanracing.com). However, I would suggest having them send you one of their catalogs. It's WAY easier to navigate through the catalog than the website. Plus there's pictures of all the cool stuff they sell! :thumbsup:

At a minimum you're looking at:

Impala Spindle: $118.00 x 2
Impala Aluminum Hub: $235.00 x 2
Steering Arms: $60.00 x 2
Caliper Brackets: $21.00 x 2
Tie Rods Sleeves and Rod Ends: ~$50.00

The hubs come bare so you'll need bearings, seals, dust caps, and wheel studs. Figure $80-$90 for those parts.

Then there's ball joints, jam nuts, and other assorted hardware. Figure another $100.00.

Brakes. $$$$$
Upper and lower control arms. $$$$$
Springs and shocks. $$$$$

You might try doing what I did and look around for used parts. I bought the hubs used and saved a ton. Came with all the bearings and new seals. I had to send them to Coleman to have another set of wheel stud holes drilled in them. I have $200 in the hubs total. I also got a pair of spindles in the deal but they didn't look all that great so I just bought new ones.

Keith, I haven't used a torque wrench on suspension in 10 years. I have front tie rods at ~50ft lbs and the LBJ are ~90ft lbs plus the extra turn to line up the cotter.

BTW, I am ecstatic to see someone with this set-up. It make sit much easier to convince others what a huge/drastic difference this makes over “B” spindles. I took it out on the freeway and hit the north side of triple digits yesterday…smooth as glass. Virtually zero bump steer and I have not even measured for adjustment yet. It is an amazing feeling to hit bumps at speed that I used to have to hang on for and just glide over them.

Here is the list; it is the bare bones cheapest way I have found buying all new parts. Sorry, no part numbers.

Coleman Impala uprights 236.4
Coleman steering arms 121.3
Coleman brake brackets 38.9
Napa Impala rotors 168.26
labor to re-drill bolt pattern 80
screw in studs 20
bearings and seals 45.96
Wilwood FSL calipers 278
Wilwood brake pads 90
Speedway stering linkage with rod ends 57.9
Speedway upper control arms 79.9
upeer ball joints 29.9
lower ball joints 29.9
labor to machine ball joint down to fit stock arm 35
ball joint taper adapters 20
JIC to IFF fittings 15
pipe to JIC fittings 7
brake hoses 48

$1401.42

How much better do you think your set-up is over the AFX spindles,Denny?

Hmmm, better is a vague term here as Marcus has been working with Tyler and Shane, they have it down pretty tight. Bump steer is going to be a wash; the Coleman set-up will have slightly better RC height and better lateral migration numbers. I would bet the AFX has RC migration down to less than an inch or two which is a HUGE improvement over stock, most guys would never even notice it. I think the AFX spindle/steer arm/control arm with a basic brake kit runs in the neighborhood of 1700 for C5 brakes. You already have a Baer system and I’m sure those guys have come up with a way to fit Baer brakes to their uprights. You might be money ahead by quite a bit to look into the AFX (they are ready for shipment as I understand). If you are looking at going to an Alcon or Wilwood 6 piston set-up than the Coleman might be a better way to go. The other thing is replacement parts; the Coleman stuff is all goofy circle track stuff while the AFX is all off the shelf C5 stuff save for the spindle itself. Just a few things to consider.

Do I regret going this route…HELL NO. If I could do it again I would in a heartbeat. The dirt road/do it yourself method isn’t for everyone though, I had many delays with fitting up parts, getting wrong parts, waiting on the machine shop and if I have a problem down the road it might mean some down time while I wait to have parts made up again.

Troy, give me a few weeks to work out the bugs (still have some previous existing brake conditions and of course finalizing the chassis height and alignment) and you have to come drive this thing. I’d love to have a second opinion from someone with both track time and an “A” body with the “B” spindles for comparison.

I agree-- with Tyler/Shane/Marcus at the helm of the AFX setup I expect nothing but excellent results from the upcoming AFX/SC&C package. Honestly I can't wait to see their setup as it will very likely be the best off the shelf setup going for these cars with stock suspension pickup points and control arm length. I would be shocked if those guys settled for results that were anything less.

It's neck and neck which setup I'm going to go with. I'm really leaning towards the Coleman setup for the "DIY Factor" but if Marcus and the ATS guys come up with not only a good set of numbers but also an easy and inexpensive way I can keep my current PBR setup and Baer rotors that may be a more cost effective route, especially for those of us who already have some money sunk into B-body brake setups. While not up to par for seriously competitive use, I have no complaints about the PBR's for "open track fun day" type usage-- they work very well with the right pads. Only oops I've had to date is baking the seals by not giving them enough "cool down" time prior to parking the car after really hard use (don't ask. LOL.)

However, I'm willing to bet that you could make the PBR's work with the Coleman spindles given the correct rotors and a simple custom caliper bracket cut from plate steel.

And Denny... I can't wait for a ride along, both to feel the front end setup and also how your rear suspension works with the panhard rod.

Keith... two thumbs up for no sooner getting the setup on your Elky and then taking it to the track. Be sure to compare lap times from your last visit!

And Denny... I can't wait for a ride along, both to feel the front end setup and also how your rear suspension works with the panhard rod.
Ride along?!? You're driving, I want real feedback.

Denny,

I just wanted to congratulate you on getting this setup figured out and installed. Truly a challenging accomplishment that should open some eyes and ears here.

Daryl

Hey guys. The latest update on the A/G-Body setup is that we have the spindles available and the steer arms are in production (see the prototype pictured) They will also be black hard anodized. We have tapers for both those that are running factory ball joints and those that have already done the B-Body spindle swap. They are currently priced as follows:

$625 AFX Spindles with new C5 bearing packs
$175 AFX Billet 7075-T6 Steering Arms
$625 Starting brake package from Touring Classics - C5 2-Piston PBR brake package with rotors, calipers, baskets, lines, and master cylinder (We also are dealers for Baer and AP Racing) You can easily run the Baer six pistons or APs or even the Wilwood 6-pistons for a C5/C6 Vette. They were built to take it.

$1425 TOTAL w/brakes

We are currently taking orders. We only have about 20 sets left of our current inventory that isn't spoken for. The next 150 sets won't be ready until August. Please let me know if you have any further questions. It's been cool to see all of this come together thus far. I agree with Denny, both setups will drastically improve your cars handling. Later guys...

Shane

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5371/afxprotostrarm0524064fj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2341/afxprotostrarm052406b8qq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Dennis,thanks for your frank appraisal of the AFX parts. I appreciate it.
Before I order the AFX spindles & steering arms,I need to know a few things:
(1) Will the C5 brakes clear my 17" PSE wheels? If not,it's over as I'm NOT going to change wheels.
(2) If not,what other caliper is lower profile than the C5 PBR's? Wilwood six piston units?
(3) How much will the ride height drop with the AFX spindles? If it's too much,I'll have to run too much air pressure in my Shockwaves. Don't want to get out of the air pressure "sweetspot". Don't want to change LCA's again,either.
(4) Do the AFX spindles change the track width? If I have to send the wheels to Weldcraft to have the backspace increased,that's another $250.

Dennis,how much room do you have between your calipers and wheels?

I have about 1/2" to the wheels, much better than the C5 PBR's I had previously.

I have about 1/2" to the wheels, much better than the C5 PBR's I had previously.

Now,we're talking. I assume you're now running Wilwood six piston calipers?
What diameter brake rotors?

Nooo, just the 4-pot SFL versions. The 6-pot dimensions are the same though. My current rotor is only 11.90".

Dennis would there be much advantage with a 13 inch rotor with this setup or is a 11.90" rotor with 4 or 6 piston calipers plenty of braking power? Obviously I know you can never have too much brakes (within reason) but I am speaking in terms of open track days and things of that nature.

Obviously the bigger the rotor the larger the amount of leverage exerted on the wheel to slow it down. I am hoping that with the right balance and right pad these will work fine for track days. I've seen guys out there with more weight and less brake having no problem so I know it can be done. I will certainly post any decencies I find in this system once I get it back to the track.

As far as clearance to any given rim I cannot say, but here is a link to a template of the standard PBR C5 kit that you can check for yourself. There are way too many wheels and variables for me to start giving the ok and then getting blamed and beaten down in some dark alley later on. This will give a definite go or no-go.
http://www.touring-classics.com/Templates/C5.PDF
Shane

Dennis,thanks for your frank appraisal of the AFX parts. I appreciate it.
Before I order the AFX spindles & steering arms,I need to know a few things:
(1) Will the C5 brakes clear my 17" PSE wheels? If not,it's over as I'm NOT going to change wheels.
(2) If not,what other caliper is lower profile than the C5 PBR's? Wilwood six piston units?
(3) How much will the ride height drop with the AFX spindles? If it's too much,I'll have to run too much air pressure in my Shockwaves. Don't want to get out of the air pressure "sweetspot". Don't want to change LCA's again,either.
(4) Do the AFX spindles change the track width? If I have to send the wheels to Weldcraft to have the backspace increased,that's another $250.

Dennis,how much room do you have between your calipers and wheels?

Clint-
I've seen C5 PBR calipers clear a Wheel Vintique 17", so anything is possible. Measure with the template, and you will know for sure.
We are working with Baer on doing sizes smaller than 13" in diameter. 6 pots might be possible in a 17" if we go smaller on the discs. The C5 brake setup positions the caliper outboard, as the rotor has little offset. The AFX spindle drops the ride height 7/8". from where ever it sits currently. The spindles also do not effect track width for disc brake vehicles. If you are still running drums the track width would increase 1/4" per side with the AFX spindle.

Tyler

I have about 1/2" to the wheels, much better than the C5 PBR's I had previously.
Clint, LG had engineered a Willwood package to clear 6 piston Wilwoods behind C5 factory wheels. It maybe an option worth looking into.

http://www.lgmotorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1514

Nevermind...it says that Y2K (factory thin spokes) require a spacer.

I'll go back to drinking my coffee.

Will the AFX spindle work with the SC&C tall Howe ball joint setup???

We have a spindle that will work with tall ball joints, but the spindle height is the same as factory.

Tyler

Clint-
I've seen C5 PBR calipers clear a Wheel Vintique 17", so anything is possible. Measure with the template, and you will know for sure.
We are working with Baer on doing sizes smaller than 13" in diameter. 6 pots might be possible in a 17" if we go smaller on the discs. The C5 brake setup positions the caliper outboard, as the rotor has little offset. The AFX spindle drops the ride height 7/8". from where ever it sits currently. The spindles also do not effect track width for disc brake vehicles. If you are still running drums the track width would increase 1/4" per side with the AFX spindle.
Tyler

Thanks for the info,Tyler. I want a pair of the AFX spindles but not if I have to throw everything away and start all over. As I see it,what will make or break the deal will be the brake set-up. I'm not going to replace my knockoff wheels and even though my Baer 13" Track front brakes work very well,I wouldn't have a problem with replacing them with something better.
7/8" further drop wouldn't be a problem at all,IMO. The fact the spindles do not increase track width is another bonus.
Is there any difference between standard C5 and C6 brakes?

Wow,this thread just goes on and on like the Energizer bunny!

Nice job Keith,it looks great! I especially like the adj. upper arms. ;)

The C5 rotors and C5 PBR calipers will clear just about any aluminum 17" wheel and some steel ones (depending on the shape of the center and location and thickness of the welds). We`ve tried a bunch of 17" wheels with them and haven`t run into one yet that wouldn`t clear. If for some reason you needed more clearance the LS1 F body calipers have the same bore dia. but shorter fins for more clearance. We`ve run these on 12" rotors in a 15" wheel! VS. the Coleman setup it`s largely a matter of preferences and tradeoffs. I`ve found that anything more than 1" of spindle drop is more likely to cause headaches with wheel/tie rod end clearance issues (unless it`s a drag car with skinnies up front). That doesn`t mean you can`t use them just that your chances of having issues increases. If you have good clearance with stock spindles and a 15" wheel then add a 2" drop you loose 2" of clearance. Go up to a 17" wheel and you gain 2" of dia. but only 1" of radius so you still loose 1". With the AFX spindles you loose 1" (okay .875") but with a 1" increase in raduis (17") it`s a wash. Then due to the new steering arm geometry you gain a little more so you`re actually better off than when you started. :)

A lot of spindle drop also means that you either have to accept a very low ride height or compromise on lowering with springs (which really helps the geometry on these cars). The uber low ride height is cool (we just did a car in the shop last week that sits at least as low as Dennis`s Elky and it does look freakin mean!) but it can be a bear to live with depending on where you live/drive etc. The AFX combo and a set of off the shelf Eiback Pro springs for example will give you a low mean ride height with just enough ground clearance for even big block cars to get over speed bumps without leaving ceramic header coating on them. ;)
The AFX setup should be lighter,depending on which rotors you use. Baer rotors for example will take a lot more heat than factory C5 rotors without warping or cracking but they`re heavier. Honestly I doubt you`ll ever notice any weight savings on the street though.
RC location and camber curves for both are damn good. There`s not much room for "better" in this range,just different. On the computer screen the Coleman setup should have just slightly less lateral RC migration but we`re really splitting hairs there (fractions of an inch vs. well over a foot for the stock suspension!) and the tighter tie rod/wheel clearance and extra low ride height are the tradeoff for it. They`re really both great setups. The fact that the ATS setup bolts right on with factory ball joints and tie rod ends,fits and works just like new factory GM parts is very cool though! Plus if you have a problem with anything you can stop at any GM dealer or parts store and the parts are on the shelf and cheap. Nice to know if you do Power Tour or take the car on long trips.
Price wise we`re getting $1099.90 for the std. Street Comp-AFX package (AFX spindles,new C5 hub/bearing assys,adj. tubular upper arms). Of course you have to add brakes,say $650 new from Touring Classics or around $450 if you pick up new C5 parts yourself. If you don`t need brand new parts though you can get the C5 parts (rotors,calipers,brackets etc.) for dirt cheap from Vette recyclers like Vette Wreck (or E Bay) and probably bring the whole package in for just over a grand. At that price point you also have fully adj. and rebuildable upper arms and OE greasable tie rod ends,factory ball joints etc. for a long service life and easy future maintenance. I know that stuffs not sexy but you`ll be glad for it a couple years down the road! Mark SC&C

You might remember Herb Lumpp's yellow 66 El Camino protourer that was featured in all the magazines a year or so ago. I sold him a Baer GT front brake kit that consists of 12.9" rotors & C5 calipers. His 17" Budniks wouldn't clear the calipers and he ended up buying 18's to correct the problem. I "think" that car has B-body spindles. Do you think that was the source of the problem,Marcus?

My car has air ride so re-adjusting the ride height isn't a problem.

I`d almost have to see it to tell what was causing the problem. Was the clearance issue radial or axial in relation to the wheel? Some wheels don`t have enough "joe" distance and the rear of the spokes contacts the face of the caliper. It`s usually not a problem with newer wheels (except for Torque Thrusts) unless you`re running big monoblock calipers but if his Budniks were a few years old that may have been it. Radially there shouldn`t be any problems with a 17" wheel unless the shape of the barrel is odd. We`ve tried everything from GM pattern Bullit wheels to Momo Arrows and even new TT2s with plenty of clearance. Mark SC&C

This thread rules !

Anybody running the AFX spindle and arm yet ?

This thread rules !

Anybody running the AFX spindle and arm yet ?

Not sure... haven't seen anyone post yet.

Myself, I'm still up in the air if I want to go the AFX or Coleman setup. Both are excellent options, that's for sure. I do have to admit I still have some nervous feelings about the AFX spindle when it comes to strength and fatigue life. It looks great but being an engineer I've experienced deceptive looks before. Shane/Tyler have assured me they've done their homework but I'm still a bit twitchy about them. I know GM had a bugger of a time with the C5 spindles, which is what the AFX is loosely based on (although with a lot more beef.)

Not sure... haven't seen anyone post yet.

Myself, I'm still up in the air if I want to go the AFX or Coleman setup. Both are excellent options, that's for sure. I do have to admit I still have some nervous feelings about the AFX spindle when it comes to strength and fatigue life. It looks great but being an engineer I've experienced deceptive looks before. Shane/Tyler have assured me they've done their homework but I'm still a bit twitchy about them. I know GM had a bugger of a time with the C5 spindles, which is what the AFX is loosely based on (although with a lot more beef.)

There are at least 20-25 guys who purchased our A body stuff recently, but I only know of 1 on the road. It is on our website under the project section. Here are a few teasers:

http://www.t56kit.com/projects/elfstrom/04.jpg
http://www.t56kit.com/projects/elfstrom/18.jpg
http://www.t56kit.com/projects/elfstrom/26.jpg


What can we do to put your worries to rest regarding the strength of our spindle? I can tell you with no uncertainty that our AFX spindle has fixed every issue that GM ran into, and then some. The material we use is stronger than OEM, the forging process is 30% stronger than OEM, and the unit itself is 50% beefier everywhere than OEM C5 parts. We worked directly with GM on testing and development, and we only make these in the USA- No overseas parts from us.

Tyler

The website says you guyz are on back order ... Any thruth in that ?

Also, I see up here that you are displaying the upper A-arms. Are those essential to the upgrade?

Yes. We have sold out (again) of the tall AFX spindle with the factory ball joint tapers. We do have about 4 sets of tall AFX spindles with B body upper and lower ball joint tapers ready to ship. We will have our standard tall spindles back in stock in the 2nd week of Sept. They are in the middle of being machined.

Tyler

You guyz make the in batches of 10 , 20 ?

Could not help but noticing, with that other hi buck stuff on the 67 those KYB gas-adjusts really look out of place!

I am darn tempted to snag a set of those B-body AFX spindles & A-body steering arms... but I'd need to deal with my front brakes at the same time.

Tyler, did you guys ever come up with a viable solution for us guys running C4 PBR stuff? Or would I have to switch over to C5 PBR's?

If I have to go C5, which I don't mind, I'm hoping I could re-use my current 13" Baer rotors by changing hats to accomodate the C5 PBR caliper offset.

I also need to check my new wheels for C5 caliper face clearance.

One thing that would help quell my mind Tyler... did you ever finish destructive and accelerated fatigue life testing of some production parts? How did the actuals compare to your FEA predictions?

You guyz make the in batches of 10 , 20 ?

First batch was roughly 50 pre-production samples, 2nd batch was a mix of 200 short, 200 tall, the 3rd batch is 300 tall. We have already pre-sold 1/4 of the 3rd batch, and it just got to the machinist about 2 weeks ago. If we made 10-20 forgings per run, you guys would be paying close to $1700 per set of spindles.

I am darn tempted to snag a set of those B-body AFX spindles & A-body steering arms... but I'd need to deal with my front brakes at the same time.

Tyler, did you guys ever come up with a viable solution for us guys running C4 PBR stuff? Or would I have to switch over to C5 PBR's?

If I have to go C5, which I don't mind, I'm hoping I could re-use my current 13" Baer rotors by changing hats to accomodate the C5 PBR caliper offset.

I also need to check my new wheels for C5 caliper face clearance.

One thing that would help quell my mind Tyler... did you ever finish destructive and accelerated fatigue life testing of some production parts? How did the actuals compare to your FEA predictions?

No possible way to run a C4 style caliper or rotor on our spindles. We spoke with Baer regarding making new caliper baskets to adapt the C4 PBR calipers to the C5 mounting, but they weren't too interested. If you have a 2pc rotor, you could re-use the firepath section, and replace the hat to a C5 offset, but it would make more sense to sell the unit as a ready to hang unit to help offset the cost of the new front brake setup.

We engineered the spindles to have a safety factor of 5, and during destructive testing it surpassed 11x's its designed load before failing.

Tyler

There are at least 20-25 guys who purchased our A body stuff recently, but I only know of 1 on the road. It is on our website under the project section. Here are a few teasers:


First batch was roughly 50 pre-production samples, 2nd batch was a mix of 200 short, 200 tall, the 3rd batch is 300 tall. We have already pre-sold 1/4 of the 3rd batch, and it just got to the machinist about 2 weeks ago. If we made 10-20 forgings per run, you guys would be paying close to $1700 per set of spindles.


Your earlier post confused me some... With 450 sets in circulation, I'm surprised nobody on here is running them yet.

Tyler,

I was reading the printout that came with my AFX spindles and noticed a 15 year or 225,000 mile replacement recommendation. Do these parts only last 15 years? For me, that might be 60K miles.

Mike

Your earlier post confused me some... With 450 sets in circulation, I'm surprised nobody on here is running them yet.

When I stated I knew 20-25 guys who recently purchased our tall AFX spindles, it was in the last 45 days.

85% of our sales are F bodies, with another 5% being the X bodies, and then the last 10% split between A and G bodies.
The reason for the huge split is that we did not have our steering arm finished at the time the forgings were ready to be assembled. The F/X body cars can re-use the factory UCA and steering arm, where as the A/G bodies require a shorter UCA and our bumpsteer-corrected steering arm with our tall AFX spindle. As a friend of mine says- You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 69 Camaro, and there are quite a few who wanted the improvement the AFX spindle offers.

Tyler

EDIT: Not all of the F body AFX spindles are on the road either, everyone has a project, and they all seem to take much longer than we think. Mark Stielow is running them on his new Camaro, and the feedback has been excellent. Check it out:
http://www.t56kit.com/projects/stielow/

Thank you for the clarification, I apreciate you chiming in instead of hearing from a friend of a friend of a friend that knows the guy that designed them.

If they are as good as you guyz say, I'm sure when a few members start running them and comments on them, they will get very popular. Lots of A-body cars around here.

HEY! That's MY 67 .... Before you all start asking a million questions... I am sad to report that the motor is dead "Long Live the 283" ... I actually had to limp the car home from Tylers shop... I am in the process of replacing it.....:sad:

I will say that I plan on stiffer springs up front.... and I know the shocks are not great, but unless you are sending donations for Bilsteins.... It's going to be a while.....:(

Oh the irony !

The only one that ran broke down.

I am running them on my 1987 Grand National with basically the exact same setup shown above..SC&C UCAs, ATS AFX spindles and billet steering arms, C5 Corvette brakes. My opinion may seemed biased but I absolutely love how it handles. I throw that car into corners like I'm racing and it grabs HARD. This is basically the same setup as the A-Bodies. I drive this car everyday and I almost have over 600 miles on these of pretty harsh driving with zero problems or complaints. Should be some others out there that can comment soon.

Mike, as with any product there has to be a liability clause like a car warranty may have 100,000 miles or 10 years. Obviously the spindles are designed for amount of cycles before fatigue since aluminum does have a definite fatigue life. Based on our studies (which included talks with designers of the C5 spindle and individual testing of all sorts of materials in spindles done by the OEM) and testing that we had available to us we came up with those numbers. That figure is based on the assumtion of driving the car 15000 miles a year. The mileage figure is the one based off of amount of cycles and the important one to track...the years is just another gage to measure the fatigue life. A non-cycled part wont go bad if it sat for 15 years. Hope that clears that up for you.

Shane

Shane, couple quick questions. I'm going to be giving you a ring next week (very close to a decision) but I have a couple easy Q's that will be beneficial for everyone here:

What's the overall spindle height and KPI of the tall version?

What is your recommended caster & starting alignment specs? Since the caster plays into steering arm height and therefore overall bumpsteer, it's pretty important. I like around +5 to +5.5 caster for high speed stability and wonder if that is in the ballpark of your stuff.

Any issues with just swapping your stuff in place of a B-body spindle with Global West arms? I know I can get your spindles & steering arms with the correct BJ tapers but I'm more worried about your spec'd caster compared to the caster GW has built into their B-body uppers. I'm not looking to do a lot of "stagger shimming" to get the caster within your spec.

Spindle height is 8.5" and KPI is 8 degrees. We recommend 5 degrees of caster, and we did testing with GW arms, Hotchkis arms, and of course SC&C arms. You will not run into any issues.

Tyler

Tyler,

What's availability look like now on your tall spindles for a 71?

2 sets left for a B body spindle conversion, 300 in machining currently.

Tyler

I have question for Marcus at SC&C. I like many here have done the B body swap, long before I learned of all of these other options. I used the Global West upper arms, wich use screw in style ball joints.

What I would like to do if at all posible, would be to use a tall upper and lower ball joint with my stock spindles. The only thing is finding a ball joint that would work with the GW a arms and have the right taper and length.

Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks for any help.

Give these guys a call:

http://www.howeracing.com/Suspension/Index-BallJoints.htm

If you call Howe they`ll just refer you to me anyway. I`m the one who talked them into making the A body tall ball joints. Many of the Howe parts we use are made for SC&C only. :)

Jake,are you positive they`re screw in and not press in? GW keeps changing which ball joints they use in their arms. Many of their A body uppers use Chevy Vega press in lower ball joints! If you`ve got those we can`t help you (with the uppers at least,you could still run our tall lowers). I searched all over and there is no other ball joint that matches the housing size of the odd ball Vega joints. If they are screw in it`s no sweat. We can just do a Chrysler screw in housing with either our tall or Severe Duty XTall ball joint studs. We do those all the time. Mark SC&C

Another thread that needs to be brought back to the top. How many of you are running the AFX spindles on their A-bodies or F-bodies now?

Tyler,when is the next production run of these going to be available again?

Another thread that needs to be brought back to the top. How many of you are running the AFX spindles on their A-bodies or F-bodies now?

Tyler,when is the next production run of these going to be available again?

Got them But not installed yet. Car is a project, wont see the road for a while.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/jfboy/DSC00971.jpg


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/jfboy/DSC01059.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/jfboy/DSC01060.jpg

http://www.t56kit.com/projects/elfstrom/22.jpg
I am running them... swapped the dead 283 for a mild 350 and got the car up and running again... I also have the CPP adjustable master ...
http://www.rjays.com/Classic_Perf/classic_images/cppMCPV-1-lg.jpg
The car handles awesome and stops great... There are some sweeping curves on the way to and from work that I take between 60 MPH and 80 MPH... I slide off my bench seat before you would ever feel the car lose grip.... This is my daily driver too...


I do have some cam / vaccume issues.. I just ordered a vaccume resevoir from JEGs... at slow speed and idle there is just not enough pedal.....

http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/500/555/555-63010.jpg

The other problem is that my passanger from horn is tweaked, so with the lowering springs and the fact that is sits back in the wheel well too far... it rubs... I'm going to look into having the frame checked / straightened OR build up and swap for another frame....

Once I figure out the frame issue... then next step is Global West LCA set up for coil overs with a set of Bilsteins... infinte ride height adjustment... easy spring rate changes too...
https://secure15.nexternal.com/ats/images/cta-42h_main.jpg
http://superchevy.com/technical/0602sc_shkpr1_10_s.jpg

I do have some cam / vaccume issues.. I just ordered a vaccume resevoir from JEGs... at slow speed and idle there is just not enough pedal..... Hydroboost! :thumbsup:

Another thread that needs to be brought back to the top. How many of you are running the AFX spindles on their A-bodies or F-bodies now?

Tyler,when is the next production run of these going to be available again?


This is my first post on Team Chevelle but I thought I would chime in. I just got my AFX spindles in the mail from Mark at SC&C last Wednesday along with the ProLite upper a-arms. I have ordered the Bear Brake GT Track System with the 2 piston PBR calipers and some new ball joints as well but it will still be a couple weeks for that stuff to show up.

I plan on running a Hydratech Hydraulic Brake Booster because I have only 4 inHg of vacuum at idle. While the car is apart I still might swap in either the rebuilt original 327 or an LS1 as opposed to the stroked 350 I am running.

I still need to get the lower a-arms sorted out as well I can't decide which way to go stock or aftermarket. I know currently there is no geometry benefit to the aftermarket a-arms but they just look like they should be a lot stiffer and able to hold the alignment better in hard corners.

I still need to find some rims that will clear the Bear Brakes. I also can't decide between 17" and 18" rims. It is still going to be sometime until I get my Chevelle back on the road.

About a year ago I decided to fix some electrical issues and next thing I know the body is off and I am working on the frame. It is a work in progress with lots of decisions left to make and lots and lots of parts left to buy.

Another thread that needs to be brought back to the top. How many of you are running the AFX spindles on their A-bodies or F-bodies now?

Tyler,when is the next production run of these going to be available again?

:D I have mine installed and getting close to putting her on the road. Waiting for my wheels from Budnik. Also would like to thank Mark at SC&C for all the help! :) :) :)


http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/502/IMG_4040.JPG

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/502/IMG_4047.JPG

I've put about 600 miles on my AFX setup. I started a thread with pics and comments. Here is the linkL

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147492

We have all AFX spindles and steering arms in stock for A,F,X, and G body cars. So far there are almost 340 AFX spindles out in the world, either on projects, running cars, or other.
We also have had a huge break through regarding the AFX spindles and 15" wheels.
SSBC has been working with us on making a high performance brake kit that will work on our AFX spindle and fit into a 15x7 rally wheel. What they have so far is a 12" rotor with a 4 piston caliper. We should have these ready for sale by March for guys who don't want to run a 17" wheel or larger, but still want all the handling of our AFX spindle.

Tyler

We also have had a huge break through regarding the AFX spindles and 15" wheels.
SSBC has been working with us on making a high performance brake kit that will work on our AFX spindle and fit into a 15x7 rally wheel. What they have so far is a 12" rotor with a 4 piston caliper. We should have these ready for sale by March for guys who don't want to run a 17" wheel or larger, but still want all the handling of our AFX spindle.

TylerGreat news for all the old school holdouts! ;)

Here is the whole explanation behind why the Howe calipers rattle around like they do.

Back in the 70's, Ed Howe adapted the then new and comparatively inexpensive sliding caliper D52 GM caliper to oval track racing. There wasn't much available in the way of pad materials at the time but the calipers could be had for peanuts at junkyards all around the Midwest states where he raced and eventually sold his cars. As his business grew, he made race specific adaptations of the same stuff he formerly gleaned from junk yards.

WHen you look at the OEM caliper, it is NOT mounted in flat, "blade" like caliper brackets that the aftermarket guys offer today. THe OEM caliper brackets were actually fitted to/with "hooked over" brackets that had a tab folded over that guided the caliper and also absorbed F and R braking forces.

ALthough not readily known or followed anymore, the clearance between the D52 caliper is CRITICAL to the quiet operation of the system under braking.

Here's how it works.

THe caliper clamps on the rotor, THe rotor slams the caliper into the "hooked over " caliper bracket. WHen properly clearanced at about 0.003 to 0.007", the caliper relies on the bolts/pins ONLY to keep the caliper positioned into the "Hooked" caliper bracket. The rubber bushings take up the slack and keep the thing from rattling or "cracking" when the calipers move around as braking occurs with a properly clearanced bracket/caliper.

NOw, delete the "hooked" bracket and use a "blade" bracket.

WHen the caliper clamps, it now clamps well outside of the now "point source" reaction point of the blade bracket. Since the clamp point is outside of the reaction point and no "hook" is there to absorb the brake reaction force, the caliper both twists and slams against the blade bracket.It can't help but rattle around as its twists and turns and shimmies, especially without the O rings that the race caliper lacks

Since the early HOwe adaptations were used in hard core racing, they often saw rotors get CHERRY red in/during service. At those temps, the factory O rings in the calipers would literally melt out whether you liked it or not.

Hence, for racing you could leave out the o rings and the calipers would still work. Since noise was not an issue, and the headers blanked out any rattle or cracking sound of the calipers, nobody cared.

TO reduce fab costs, the "hooked" brackets were then replaced by "blade brackets" and the parade rolled on.

Fast forward to 2008.

The Chevelle crowd uncovered what was essentially a HD suspensiogn that was initially developed from A and B body GM hardware by Ed Howe, This is whey so much of the Howe stuff bolts on. HOWEVER, there is a reason why RACING is Howe's middle name - it is race car stuff that has eliminated street needed features that hampered performance in a harsh racing environment.

For inexpensive reliable race calipers, HOwe's are hard to beat. However they aren't suitable for street use -even Chas HOwe will surely state this when/if you talk with him directly about it as I have done on occasion..

How to fix it, no pun intended.

First, get a "hooked over" factory style caliper bracket. Tighten up the "hook" so it has 0.003 to 0.007, 0.005" preferred caliper to bracket clearance. Do this by bending the "hook" down so the flat nose of the blade makes clean even and square contact with the caliper. Use silencer shims behind the pads and the lube goop as well.

THis should MINIMIZE rattle potential until or unless you can find a way to replace the O rings which take out the final rattle potential.

Now, if you really want trick aluminum calipers, look at Willwood. They sell GM III"s with the anti rattle Orings. HOWEVER, I don't believe you can get them for an 11.75x1.25 HD rotor - they only come on calipers for 1" or thinner rotors.

The real issues seems to be that many/if not most of the aftermarket caliper brackets are the quick and dirty flat "blade" type brackets that don't have the "Hooked" over section that is/was intended to absorb a lot if not most of the braking forces. This doesn't mean that that the blades won't work, they clearly do.

HOwever, this omission is allowing the caliper to move/rotate around more than it was intended. The fact that no O rings are present to dampen and support caliper positioning, simply assures the potential for sloppy, unsupported and rattling and cracking caliper sounds.

BTW the above clearance specs were found in an obscure GM TSB that I used at the time for warranty reimbursements while working at a GM dealer in 1972. IMagine me, a snot nose kid of 21 having to explain that there ARE caliper clearances and they ARE critical to elimination of caliper cracking to flat rate mechanics of the day.

It all came down to "do it the factory way" and you'd get paid for the noise fix, Don't do so, and you'd not only not get paid but you'd get have to do the comeback for FREE.

37 years later, the same laws of physics and mechanics apply as so should the solutions to the vagaries of this particular caliper design.

Flame away but I've already proven to guys well my senior at the time that this noise fix would work time after time. THe other choice is to uncork the headers and let them rattle. Thats what the racers did -and they also readily replaced the worn calipers and/or caliper bolts due to what was actually "abnormal" metal to metal contact due to deletion of the O rings.- simple maintenance Items on race cars that any good racer would do after evwry 200-500 laps or so, depending on how hard the brakes were used..

To those who propose the use of "bushings", try this: machine and heat treat bushings out of O6 tool steel. It is PERFECT for non lubed bushings due to its graphitic content. Flash plate the pins/bolts with 0.0002 to 0.0003 of chrome. go for a net bush to bolt clearance of about 0.003 to 0.005. Add a bit of caliper lube and you should be set to go.

HOWEVER, without the "hooked" brackets, the braking force will be now be applied to the bolts and they can then shear due to flex --- after all they were never designed to absorb the braking forces, the "Hooked" caliper brackets were supposed to do that - The D52's were never intended to be used with "blade" brackets anyway.

One more thing, if yo ufo the bushing route, inspect and maintain regularly, Grease attracts dirt and dirt will wear metal to metal contact tween the busing and pins. GM engineers were pretty shapr to use the O rings, were'nt they???l

I hope this helps.

Memo to GOKOU re post 33.

Check out STock car products. THey ahve a spindle design form you can fill out and they will fab a spindle for you pretty much ANY WAY you want.

For a less costly albeit harder to find alternantive, fty to find some 69-70 BUick or Olks spindles - get the D52 caliper brackets too. 67-70 IMpala rotors or Impala drum hubs and C3 vette rotors should work in almost bolt in fashion.

OR, you can pretty much buy a pre built spindle from Howe. Use their 344GN and 344GNL. Implala hubs, Howe caliper brackets or some early 70 Olds B or A brackets and you have a setup that is good to go and pretty much botls into an A body. 2" drop and all.

WIth Drum hibs and the right top hat, you can use the killer 11.75x1.25 race rotors that come straight vane or directional vane that are supplied by many race hardware soruces. SCP had them on sale for only $31 last time I looked.

If the stock car stuff that has proven itself by over 30 yers of racing wherein it stopped cars that weighed 3200 lobs or mre doesn't work, I dunno what will.

BRW, I saw timre after time when the relatively mundane D52/GM/HOwe stuff would outperform the trick aluminum stuff time after time during my racing years. Since they still sell it, it must be good.

Down and dirty circle track tech has very little place in street performance. Most of what`s done is mandated by the rules or tradition not function. The race spindles are attractive at first blush but when you get into it they almost always use larger ball joint tapers,steering arms that totally screw up the bumpsteer,ackerman,steering ratio. The brakes and hubs are still antiquated and I`m sorry but there is no contest between a modern aluminum dual piston/13" brake and a D52/11.75" brake system. You don`t see that in circle track because 13" brakes won`t even fit in their little 15" wheels. Why plague yourself when you can get the same or better geometry out of the stock spindles with our 2-Plus tall ball joint package, have a common spindles (that you already own) that takes all standard parts and easily fit any brakes you like to it? Kinda like going NYC to LA via Panama... Mark SC&C