I didn't want to steal yipman64's post, but I also have a question about welders. I do not know how to weld, but want to learn. There have been several posts about welders, so I have read quite a bit about the different brands. Questions is- will a welder that opperates on 110 be a decent welder for thicker metal or do I have to go to 220? Issue is price as well as the fact that 110 outlets are much more readily available where I am working. I love auto work, but if I spend money on a welder I want it to weld thicker metal too, Example- I would like to fabricate a trailer and other things such as that. I would think that 1/4 inch would be the absolute maximum that I would ever need to weld. Thanks for any input-

Nick

As soon as you say you want to weld 1/8" or thicker, you then enter the 220v Mig welder catagory. If you only wanted to weld 3/16", a 175 amp machine would suffice, but if you want to weld 1/4", you really need 200+ amps. Lincoln or Miller both make good machines. The best value machines for a small home shop would be the Miller 210 Millermatic of the Lincoln PowerMig 200. These machines will weld up to 3/8" steel. I went with the 251 Millermatic as I already wasted money on two different 110v machines that were not up to the tasks I was trying to perform.

I tend to look at large tools like this as long term investments and a higher initial purchase cost will easily pay for itself over the years. Many have a hard time justifying an expensive welder, but I feel this in the only way to look at such a purchase...especially if your talking about doing suspension/frame/roll bar/cage welding. It's crucial to have adequate weld penetration for safety reasons. A marginally sized welder could make for a dangerous final product.

for more info, go here...
http://www.aws.org (go to their message board)
http://www.millermotorsports.com (again, message board)
http://www.weldreality.com (another message board)
http://www.millerwelds.com
http://www.lincolnelectric.com
http://www.welding.org


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Malibu Motorsports (http://www.malibumotorsports.cjb.net)
414 ci bbc, pump gas, 3500 lbs
10.66 @ 125 1/4 mile
6.74 @ 101 1/8 mile
1.47 60' on 9" tire

That is very good advice, I just borrowed a flux core welder to do a small job and its worthless. Also a guy down the street from me just welded on a new front cross member on his 56 ford truck, he's doing a suspension swap and he used a flux core 110v for it. He hasnt driven it yet but I think he might be in for a surprise when he hits a big bump.

Thanks for the quick replies- I kind of thought that would be the response, but I was still hoping that 110 would sufice. Looks like I need a new shop s/ 220 http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif. I agree completely about buying the right tool the first time, and as always -safety first-. I ordered a pamphlet from a company called USA Weld (www.usaweld.com) it was a link from another post. They some of the best customer service I have ever seen for a product like this- Free catalog shipped out immediatally when I asked for it, and a follow up letter shortly after to make sure I recieved it. Anyway- anybody have opinions about those products? Thier prices were competetive and the person that put the link out there seemed to think highly of them, but that is the first time I have heard of them.

Nick

I've heard of HTP welders before, but have never personally considered them for a purchase. I would suggest you stay with one of the main players in the US welding market...Miller, Lincoln and Hobart (owned by Miller).

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Malibu Motorsports (http://www.malibumotorsports.cjb.net)
414 ci bbc, pump gas, 3500 lbs
10.66 @ 125 1/4 mile
6.74 @ 101 1/8 mile
1.47 60' on 9" tire

10secBu i also have a miller 251 mig its awesome i am so glad i spent the extra bucks on it i also have an invertig 200 tig welder from HTP i bought it because of the inverter technology.i couldnt use a tig welder from miller or lincoln because of the 70 -80 amp requirements only have 50amps going to my garage but my point is this company has been making welders for about 20 years and nick is right there helpfullness and service is the best ive ever had. i had a problem with my mig tourch and they exchanged it no questions asked were very apologetic about the trouble and they sent it 2nd day air at no extra cost to please the customer. i'll tell ya thats better service than any local welding supply place ever gave me around her

I still like dealing with the local welding shop. It helps when you have problems or need parts and a guy will stay open 10 more minutes untill you get there on a Sat. I buy my gas and some places offer welding classes with purchase.

Though it is far from my favorite welder I have used, the Miller 135 110 volt I use at work really does work pretty good. I weld everything from sheet metal to frames with it.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

The high end 110 volt machines like Miller and Hobart will do a pretty good job for you. You are correct to assume that the thhickness of the metal you can weld is limited. If you want to tackle heavier projects, go with the 220 volt machine. For really heavy welding, it's best to go with a DC stick machine.

I don't have an expensive 120VAC welder and I have used it with 0.035" flux cored wire to weld ~12 guage metal parts onto my frame without a problem. The car frames really aren't that heavy though for the most part so it was a good match. Anything heavier than that though would begin to be a problem. The only place on a car that I can think of where the metal is too heavy for a decent 120VAC welder is the rear end housing and the heavier front part of the frame, expecially the crossmember.

Peter

I have used expensive migs & tig before
but I will tell you that for small jobs
the little flux core weld pack I have
works very well. Sure there is a lot more slag but after its ground off it looks the same. Did quarter panels on my blazer with it and front fender patch panels on the malibu and it worked great. I guess it just depends on how much you want to spend and what you are doing. I would not weld up a roll cage with it but it servs its purpose.

robert defalco- I'm glad to hear somebody else has used them and had great service, definitally a point for them.

So far it sounds like 220 is probably the way to go if you want to use it for anything very thick. If there are any more opinions out there keep them coming, I really don't know enough about welding to ask anything too specific, so the more opinions the better. I tried to go to the local welding shop, but the people I talked to didn't seem to know very much more than I did. I've gotten better advice here than anywhere so far- thanks for all the replies.

Nick

I've got an HTP 140. EXCELLENT machine. Despite the popular opinion, it is a much beefer machine than the lincoln, miller, or hobart equivalent. My machine will do 140 amps at 20% duty. Compare that to the 90 amps @ 20% for the equivalent machine.

My machine will weld up to 3/16", perhaps 1/4". If I want to do thicker metals, I just bevel the edges and perform multiple welds. No big deal. I want the portability of a 110 volt unit.

As far as having a local rep, its really a matter of personal perference. When I was shopping for a welder, I went to a miller dealer and he gave me the same sales pitch that you really want a local rep so you can bring your machine in if something happens. So I ask what did he suggest, and he said a millermatic 135. I asked to see it and he said that he didn't have any in stock to show and that he'd have to order it! Ha!, so much for local dealers. I found out that most parts on any repair job are not stocked at your local dealers. So what would you rather have, your machine sitting a week or so at a welding shop, or a replacement part from HTP in 2 days? Hmmmm.

HTP has a 3 year warranty. I think all the others are 1 year. HTP has excellent customer service and I've never had a problem with the welder. I did have some pieces missing from a consumable kit I ordered, and they immediately sent out a couple packages of tips.

Sheesh, I sound like a salesman for them. Anyone with an HTP, however will tell you the machine is a good product and the customer service matches the product. By the way, HTP's background is in automotive repairs and racing.

No matter what machine you go with, go with the gas. Flux core is very messy.

Dave

[This message has been edited by ScoobyDoo (edited 12-17-2002).]

Hey Scooby, is the wire feed mechanism metal or plastic? HTP machines are supposed to be top of the line machines, but I've never had the chance to inspect one up close. I bought a Miller because of the metal wire feed rollers vs plastic in other machines.

I did speak with a salesperson at HTP before I bought the Miller, and they are very customer friendly. I bought the Miller because of my past experiences with them and because I was able to buy everything at one place (I bought the gas bottle from the same suppler).

Randy,

They are metal gears and both gears drive the wire, not just one.

Buying everything from one place definately has its advantages.

If you're ever in Augusta, look me up and I'll show you the machine.

BTW, my family lives in Dallas. I grew up in Lewisville and Flower Mound.

Cheers.

Dave

[This message has been edited by ScoobyDoo (edited 12-18-2002).]

I currently own Linoln and a Century mig welders. I have used the HTP welder in an autobody class many years ago and the HTP was very excellent at welding body metal. I came to the conclusion that HTP was intended for body work because it worked so well at that task.

Metal is metal, whether its 22 gauge or 14 gauge. I'm not sure I understand that logic. I'm welding on 1/8" metal right now and it does the job very well.

Dave

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScoobyDoo:
Metal is metal, whether its 22 gauge or 14 gauge. I'm not sure I understand that logic. I'm welding on 1/8" metal right now and it does the job very well.

Dave<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not much difference when you're talking gage metal, but when you get up to 1/4" or more it takes more amperage to penetrate deeply enough to get a sound weld. Multiple passes with a small 110 mig/flux core machine will not be as strong as a good pass with a 220 mig/flux core machine or even a stick welder.

I have a Lincoln Weld Pack 100 that works great on gage metal. When I need to weld any structural metal I break out my trusty old lincoln 225 stick welder. One day I may spring for a 220 mig machine but I can do fine with the machines I have now.



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ACES member# 5093
Elcaminos are special!
I'd rather walk around with a Chevrolet hubcap in my hand than drive a Ford

Ole Paint (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/olepaint1)

Thanks again for all the replies, keep them coming. Another question I though of- if a welder is capable of welding up to 1/4", does that mean it is capable of welding two 1/8" pieces of metal together, or does that mean that it is capable of welding two 1/4" pieces of metal together? Or is there way more to this than that?

Nick

Big James,

If your talking about 1/4" metal and above, yes, you need more amperage and your looking at a 220 volt machine.

HOWEVER, if you only do this once in a great while, why spend all that money on a 220 volt machine if you're only cranking it up to do 1/4" - 1/2" metal once in a blue moon.

There is nothing wrong with beveling the metal, and making multiple passes and using a 110 volt machine.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Multiple passes with a small 110 mig/flux core machine will not be as strong as a good pass with a 220 mig/flux core machine or even a stick welder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're making an assumption. That depends on the weld and the welder. Many of our 1/2" thick vessel welds are multiple passes on a 220 volt TIG machine. These vessels are rated as high as 3500 psig. These same welds have to pass di-penetration and x-ray tests.

The point I made was that JWagner seemed to insinuate that HTP machines were ONLY good for thin sheet metal body work. I disagree. If I misread his post, my apologies.

Nick, if you have all kinds of cash to spend, then by all means go with the 220 volt welder. Just plan on re-wiring your garage and be sure to buy 300 feet of 220 volt extension cord to plug it into for those outside jobs and if you decide to take it anywhere. Oh, yeah forget about being very portable unless you build a trailer for it or like lifting a near 1/4 ton machine into a pickup truck. Do you have the space for that? All factors to think about.

Now, if your main intention is to work on your car, perhaps do some light metal work on occasion, with 1/4" probably being the thickest you'll weld with a mig then the 110 volt welder is what you need. You'll save hundreds of dollars and you'll be able to carry your machine ANYWHERE and plug it right in.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thanks again for all the replies, keep them coming. Another question I though of- if a welder is capable of welding up to 1/4", does that mean it is capable of welding two 1/8" pieces of metal together, or does that mean that it is capable of welding two 1/4" pieces of metal together? Or is there way more to this than that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, 1/4" is 1/4". My machine will weld 1/4" thick metal butted together. Despite that, I would still slightly bevel the edges. (Even on a 220 machine) It just makes for a better weld and you'll have better penetration.

If you really want to be able to weld on thicker metals regularly, I'd get a cheap stick welder as mentioned by james.

IMHO http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Dave

[This message has been edited by ScoobyDoo (edited 12-19-2002).]

It depends on the interpretation. I took J's post to mean that HTP welders were especially well suited for body work, a high compliment in my opinion. Any machine can blast into thick metal if it has the capacity. It takes a very well built machine to tackle finesse work like thin sheetmetal. If your wire feed sputters or slips, or if the voltage fluctuates, the quality of the weld will suffer. The wire feed has to be steady and the voltage must remain constant when welding lighter materials, and this requires a fairly good machine. I have worked with welding machines that were not up to the task when it came to autobody work. But they'd weld heavier metals just fine.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScoobyDoo:
Big James,



HOWEVER, if you only do this once in a great while, why spend all that money on a 220 volt machine if you're only cranking it up to do 1/4" - 1/2" metal once in a blue moon.



[This message has been edited by ScoobyDoo (edited 12-19-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is if you're not getting a sound weld it doesn't matter whether it's once in a blue moon or eveyday.

Multiple pass welds whether grooved butt welds or fillet welds are only as good as the first pass. Each additional weld pass builds on the one before it. I want my root pass or first bead of a fillet weld to be burned in solidly. A novice welder may not understand or have the skill to use one of the small 110 welders to that end.

I'm not saying the 110 machines won't do it but it's not the best way.

Not trying to argue here, a lot of good info is being passed along, just a word of caution.

When I do welding jobs for my friends I like to tell them any weld I make is "garenteed till it breaks"!

And remember, it's not a shamefull thing to make a bad weld, but is is shameful to leave one that way!


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ACES member# 5093
Elcaminos are special!
I'd rather walk around with a Chevrolet hubcap in my hand than drive a Ford

Ole Paint (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/olepaint1)

[This message has been edited by Big James 4XL (edited 12-20-2002).]

I have a Craftsman 110 volt MIG machine. Been using it for light gauge metals for about 5 years now.

For heavier work right now I use my Oxy/Acetylene torch. It works great and will penetrate anything. The thickest I've welded with a torch is 1/2" plate, and I'm confident with the quality of the welds.

My next welding purchase will probably be an inverter TIG machine. I really like the feel of gas welding, and TIG is very similar with more "finessability".

Check out Kraze Korlacki's Machines (http://www.krazearc.com). I think they're pretty cool and the prices are nice. "Kraze" is a great guy.

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My Web Page (http://www.landry-family.com) (updated 12-10-02)

"Long Live Freedom!"

Chad Landry
TC Member #643
ACES Member #4556
'68 El Camino

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The thing is if you're not getting a sound weld it doesn't matter whether it's once in a blue moon or eveyday.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is that you do not need to spend $1500 and up on a 220 volt machine to get a sound weld. Period. End of story.

Nick was looking for advice, and based on his needs, I feel like for him to buy a 220 volt welder is not worth the extra $1000.

Dave

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScoobyDoo:
My point is that you do not need to spend $1500 and up on a 220 volt machine to get a sound weld. Period. End of story.

Nick was looking for advice, and based on his needs, I feel like for him to buy a 220 volt welder is not worth the extra $1000.

Dave<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lighten up Scooby Doo!

I agree!

My point is a 110 machine is just not the answer to all the worlds problems.



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ACES member# 5093
Elcaminos are special!
I'd rather walk around with a Chevrolet hubcap in my hand than drive a Ford

Ole Paint (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/olepaint1)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lighten up Scooby Doo!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny. I was about to tell you the same thing! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My point is a 110 machine is just not the answer to all the worlds problems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is!! Yes it is!! &lt;stomping feet, flailing arms&gt; http://www.chevelles.com/forum/tongue.gif

James, ever get around Augusta? Your just an hour away from me.

Dave


[This message has been edited by ScoobyDoo (edited 12-20-2002).]

Haven't been down that way lately.

I lived there for about 4 years back in the early 80s when I was working at the Vogle power plant near Waynesboro.

It's one of my favorite places. Used to hang out with some of the biker crowd down there. Knew some of the girls from the Discotec down on Broad St.. life was good!!

Lots of good fishing around that area too! Also used to do a little drag racing at the Jackson drag strip and the one in Graniteville.

Anyway, sorry to sidetrack the welding post.
Maybe we'll get to meet up sometime in the future!

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ACES member# 5093
Elcaminos are special!
I'd rather walk around with a Chevrolet hubcap in my hand than drive a Ford

Ole Paint (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/olepaint1)

Did you know the snake lady? I always hear stories about her at that place. Of course, that was years ago. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Look me up if your passing thru. I'll do the same.

Dave

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScoobyDoo:
Did you know the snake lady? I always hear stories about her at that place. Of course, that was years ago. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif


Dave<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH YEA!!!

Knew her husband at the time too!



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ACES member# 5093
Elcaminos are special!
I'd rather walk around with a Chevrolet hubcap in my hand than drive a Ford

Ole Paint (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/olepaint1)