I recently purchased a 70 chevelle from a private owner in Canada on e-bay. The ad stated and the owner stated it was an LS5 car. When I brought the car home, I checked the numbers on the cowl. The car was Canadian made so I knew I could find out if it was an LS5. The cowl has an M38 code - which is TH350 trans. This car is no LS5! I quickly call the owner up and explained. He says he won't take the car back. It seems to me to be quite clear... I was fraudulently misled and he doesn't stand a chance in court. Anyone with some legal or similar experience please help me out. I am prepared to do whatever it takes to get my money back. I paid for an LS5 and I expected to get an LS5.

Does the bill of sale say "as is"? If so, you probably don't have much of a chance. Try talking to e bay first, then maybe a lawyer. Good luck,

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Honey, its not a $200 hat. The distributor was $200, the hat came with it. kevin d
Maryland Chevelle Club #362

Is the engine an LS 5 ? If so, then one could argue that it "is" an LS5 car. Did he advertise it as an original LS5? Do you have the ebay item number ?

The item is no longer on e-bay. The ad stated 70 chevelle SS LS5 but now has a 396 in it. Seems clear... he is stating its an LS5 car, currently with 396 in it. Cowl tags numbers show the car is nothing more than a malibu clone.

Did the seller provide you the vin and cowl data prior to you buying it ?? Did you ask for the vin #s and cowl data before buying ???

Why didn't you check it out better before taking it home???

Here is the ad for the car....

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230493952

How do you all feel about it?

The VIN won't tell you anything, neither does the cowl tag unless it was made in Canada. I didn't know about the cowl tag verification until after I purchased the car. He didn't have the car very long prior to me buying it, and I think he took the word of the owner he purchased it from. But still, because he was misled is it right for him to do the same?

Did you get the car for $5400? If it is a solid as it looks in the pictures I think you got a good deal, regardless of a clone car or not. I know thats not what you want to hear, but Im sure you can resell it and get your money back.

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70 chevelle ss396 conv
66 chevelle ss396 hdp/conv
55 chevy prostreet

Keep the car and get your money back! That is what a friend of mine did when he bought a car that they said had only 25k miles. Seems the car had 125k as per mechanics checks. Went to court and got both the car and all his money back. By the way, mine friend is a laywer. I guess you have to be careful what you state about a car because you never know who is buying it.

I think some1 mentioned it earlier you only paid 5,400 for this MAN you got a smoking deal for a car like that that car looks awsome and i bet it hauls it seems you are a #'s guy but i feel that you got a good deal. *i am not a #'s guy*.

I paid $5400 for it plus $300 to get it shipped. The car is not in as good of shape as it looks. It needs major body work, power steering assembly and the 4.56 gears have got to go. I don't think an SS clone with the work that it needs is worth that much. But I did feel that an LS5 was, that's why I bid on it. Numbers matching isn't that important to me either. But, what was important to me was that is was an origianl SS, and this car isn't. I didn't care that the motor was not origianl, but I wanted a true SS body.

I think the law of Caveat-empor (sp?) comes into play here. This means, "Let the Buyer Beware." I don't think you stand a chance of getting your money back on a private sale of a car. I don't want to sound rude, but you really should have checked it out before. The statement that you really didn't know about the vin ident. before doesn't mean that the information wasn't out there prior. Those are the risks you assume when buying "sight unseen."
Just my two cents worth.

I think you may have a case, as the ad states exactly "original SS". You may also have recourse using the US Postal service as the transaction was conducted through the mail (mail fraud?). I'd hope the seller would work with you w/out the need for lawyers and such. Good luck.
PS: I'd probablly keep it myself!

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71 Ragtop, under construction and over budget!
MCC #347, TC (Gold) #174

I'd be careful on buying cars sight unseen on e-bay. I saw the car you bought there and a 71 SS 396 elcamino on e-bay about the same time. I looked at the elcamino because it was only 45 minutes away. Add stated rust free from southern Mississippi. Truck had more cancer than you could shake a stick at. Huge holes around rear window, bottom of front fenders and the rear quarters mudded up. Inside the box had black indoor outdoor carpet glued to the floor and the wheel wells in the box had been patched. it did have the big block. #'s matching? who cares it was a parts vehicle to me. Some sucker payed I believe $4500 for it. From the 20 foot away picture it looked outstanding on E-bay. I felt sorry for him. I thought about telling him via E-mail but thought if this got back to the seller he might take some action against me. I guess buyer be ware. Your car does have the SS dash, buckets, and console. It may need some work but I don't think you will lose too much trying to re-sell it. Legal action costs money too. Say it cost you $1000 then you would be bettr of selling it for $4500- $4700. You will always take the risk you will lose in court too. By the way I just bought SS Tach gauge cluster with wiring (restored), bucket seats (need recovered), dash housing (un-cut excellent original shape), Auto console (Good original), rebuilt floor shift tilt. Total price tag $2100. Oooooouch! I guess it was worth it to me, I hate the column shifter. So maybe even if you parted the car you could come out OK. Still appears too nice to part though.

All he will have to say is he bought it like that, and the seller told him the same story. How do you prove he knew it wasn't an original LS5 car? If he was misled, then he just passed it on.If you are able to prove he was knoledgable of the fact it was a fake, THEN you might have a case against him.But, the process will cost you more money, and can be long and drawn out. If the car isn't worth that much , sell it and don't buy another through E-Bay! Look in the Trader publications, Hemming's, and the cars for sale section here. If you like it, keep it, and fix it up a little at a time. The 4.56's would be the 1st. thing to go, if it were mine!

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1972 Malibu (1 st. car) Project waiting to happen
Team Chevelle # 427
A.C.E.S. # 1282

I think, since he represented the car as being an original SS LS5 car that you would have legal grounds to recover your money. Buyer beware should only apply in cases where the seller may have failed to divulge certain things about a car and these things came to light after the sale. Since the car was missrepresented in a written ad you have proof of this missrepresentation. You made your purchase beleiving the ad to be true. Whether it is wise to go after him, considering legal fees, or just sell it to recoup your investment is another matter. If you know a lawyer have him draft a letter and send it to the seller. Sometimes thats all it takes to get things moving in the right direction. Just my 2 cents worth and good luck.

Aces209
TG63

I'm no attorney, but I concur with the previous post. He misrepresented the vehicle, and as far as I am concerned, the description states it as having a Turbo 400, and it doesn't. Good luck, Don http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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Don McGowen
1970 SS El Camino
Gold #179

[This message has been edited by BBC DON (edited 01-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by BBC DON (edited 01-27-2000).]

Another $.02 for what it's worth. No one disputes that you were misled. But you need to personally decide if it's worth the battle. Consider the amount of time and the money it will cost you to pursue it, to ultimately break even (get a refund). Overall, you'll be losing money if you factor in those costs.

And that assumes you win. Some things to consider are:
1) Does the bill of sale say "as is"? We're all curious about thist too. This will likely be a big factor and point of defense for the seller
2) What is the going price for an LS5? You'll likely be asked to prove your hardship in this case because you're losing $xxxx.xx. Be prepared to research this to support your case.
3) What is the going price for an LS5 clone?
Unless you're lucky and the seller changes his/her mind, you're going to have to go through alot. I'd suggest researching what you could get if you sold it. I can't view the photos, but it sounds like a fair price for a clone, and you can probably sell it for what you paid for it. Good luck.

I am sorry you did not receive what you were told but...If I were buying a car based on originality, I would have requested detailed info regarding authenticity and visited the car. I would not buy ANY car based on originality without viewing both the car and documentation. I DO NOT think this car was represented correctly but as posted prior, BUYER BEWARE! I would seek legal counsel.

Did you contact the Wash State Attorney General? Find out what your recourse is. They won't be able to help legaly unless there is a lot of complaints on the same issue. I'm not positive but, if fraud involved the FBI may become involved because it was transferred from out of state, but I doubt it? Contact me at work for more info on my experiance.
Dale

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Lowered '67 Elcamino
ZZ430HP / 4L60
"Canyon Carver"

[This message has been edited by Cardiac (edited 01-28-2000).]

Even though I personally believe you should go after him, remember that eBay has chosen their words carefully. "The buyer should resolve any questions before bidding", or something to that effect. So I imagine when it comes to legal troubles, you're on your own? Which would be kinda stupid, as the bad news travels fast. Especially on the internet.

The ad;
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
This is an original 1970 SS chevelle LS5 as the numbers show.But it now has a fresh 396 /350H.P.It has a turbo 400 with a shift kit. 12 bolt posi with 456 gears.The car has 116,000 original miles on it.The front end of the car is all rebuilt,new shocks,new coils, new disc brakes,near new radial TA's,The interior is excellent,the seats were redone one year ago.The headliner & dash are excellent.It has the shoulder harness option, remote drivers mirror,G.M.exhaust tips, functional cowl hood,the glass and chrome is in good condition,it has the original SS steering wheel,it has new auto meter gauges,
(oil,temp,amp).The car needs,Paint,left rear quarter panel and the radio is missing.This car has potential tobe a mint car. I am selling it for a friend,so you can e-mail me any questions and I will get back to you,or you can call him directly at (AL ENNS 250-923-1283 )I also have 8 more pictures that I can e-mail interested parties.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He said he was selling it for a friend, maybe he really didn't know in which case he wouldn't have been intentionally trying to fool anyone. If you were talking to the owner, he might not have known either (at least you probably can't prove he knew or was intentionally trying to fool you)

You are probably better off to just chalk it up to experience as a lesson learned and not through good money after bad. Unless you can possibly bluff him with an attorney's threatening letter

I can certainly understand you being very disappointed with the fact that you thought it was an SS only to find out you bought a clone but I'm thinking you can always sell it for as much or more than you paid for it anyway since these cars just keep appreciating. You can probably put 2 or three thousand more into it and have a 70 SS worth 10 or 12 G's

Too bad but you just can't believe anything a seller says, especially if it's a car for sale.

Good luck !

I don't think the issue is whether the seller intentionally misrepresented the car or not. The issue is the "ad" that specifically states the car is an "original SS LS5" car and the fact that the buyer bought based on this information. If the car is not as advertised then the seller should be compelled to refund the money,to the buyer, even if he was unaware that his ad was incorrect. Again just my opinion.

Aces209
TG63

Did you notice the seller has ~20 other items for sale on EBAY.

Have you informed him that you plan to post a Negative Response to ebay which might hurt his abilty to sell future items!!!

I'd at least consult a lawyer who will set you straight on what you can and cannot do. My opinion of the add is that it the burden would be upon him to prove he didn't misrepresent the car as opposed to you proving he did. Just keep in mind that should this go so far as a civil court proceeeding, that there may be an eyebrow or two raised at you for not thoroughly checking into the car. I'm not trying to be a goof, just playing devil's advocate. I hope that you are able to either solve the problem with the seller or sell the car and recoup your purchase price. Good luck.

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Dan Orgill
" It's not the heat, it's the stupidity. "

Bill makes an excellent point and that is the quickest, cheapest route for you initially. If he does business regularly on Ebay, then writeup and post your story with this guy. If he starts losing business due to a bad review, he may be forced to rethink his position. He might lose more money in the long run by having his reputation tarnished.

By the way, I'd still love to see the pics of the car to put this in the proper perspective. Am I the only one who can't view them?

You could view them yesterday morning. They must have removed them or something.

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Dave Knapp
TC #388
ACES # 3474
'70 SS 396

S Courter said send a letter to the seller. Use the following link to obtain a form to send to the seller if you think it is necessary.
http://www.nolo.com/product/I2316/summary_I2316.html?t=00110013211181999

However, from what I have read in the other postings, you seem to have gotten a good deal for what the car really is. On the other hand, you bought the car assuming it was a true legit LS5 car. You need to thoroughly research these things. The car is worth the $$ that you paid for it even though it is NOT a legit LS5. Legally, the ad apparently misrepresented the car. Buying the car through e-bay and with all its legal jargon contained in arranging these types of sales leaves e-bay off the hook. Your choice in what to do. I would sell it if you didn't want it and continue looking for the real McCoy. Otherwise, you have a legitimate claim against the seller. Get legal advice from a lawyer! Team Chevelle members are only providing their view on the situation.

[This message has been edited by Super70 (edited 01-28-2000).]

I agree with S Courter - the issue is not whether the seller knew the difference or not. Misrepresentation is still misrepresentation regardless of the intent of the seller. And I don't believe the "as is" verbage on the Bill of Sale is germane, either. That clause is used to describe the condition of the item being sold, and is not used to describe the item itself. What might be germane on the B.O.S. is whether it says "LS-5", which would further bolster a case for misrepresentation.

Regarding my first point, consider the case where a food manufacturer advertises a product as "Fat Free". If it is found to contain fat, but the manufacturer says they didn't know about the fat content, don't you think the FDA still files for False Advertising? Of course, they do.

But like the other posts have said, is the benefit of litigation worth the cost? Probably not. I'd be inclined to to post a flaming response on Ebay of the seller, after first warning him of my intent (to give him an opportunity to reconsider his position). Just my $.02

P.S. I wouldn't recommend soliciting legal advice from a bunch of gear-heads who think they might know something about contract law!

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Stan Hanek
'66 SS - 396 4 sp.
stan.hanek@weyerhaeuser.com

[This message has been edited by Stan (edited 01-28-2000).]

That does makes sense to me, the ad does con tain false statements, no matter who knew it to be true or not.

Free legal advice here might turn out to be not so free in the long run.



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Dean Call
Team Gold member #3
A.C.E.S. # 00235
N.C.O.A. # 4350
Mid America Chevelle Club (http://macc.chevelles.net) #001

chevelles.net (http://chevelles.net)