I would like to know if this is ok to do. I asked the sales man that sold me the primer (dupont) and he hadnt even heard of por-15. Im planning on coating the entire roof( will be putting the vinyl top back on) and I want an extra layer of protection. thanks

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Michael

www.geocities.com/msctech2002/chevelle

T.C. member # 758
ACES member # 4292

69 malibu convertible
69 malibu h/t 307/pg
<<this space reserved for 66/67 chevelle 4spd>>
01 gmc sierra

POR 15 is for use over bare,rough metal.You could use their topcoat called chasiscoat but i dont know about over etch prime.in your case i would epoxy prime over your self etch then paint it,then put your top on.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 70isfine:
POR 15 is for use over bare,rough metal.You could use their topcoat called chasiscoat but i dont know about over etch prime.in your case i would epoxy prime over your self etch then paint it,then put your top on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

70isfine, I think you misread my post, I am putting the por-15 on the bare metal on the roof, the entire car is down to bare metal now. I would like to now shoot the entire car in etching primer OVER the por on the roof.



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Michael

www.geocities.com/msctech2002/chevelle

T.C. member # 758
ACES member # 4292

69 malibu convertible
69 malibu h/t 307/pg
&lt;&lt;this space reserved for 66/67 chevelle 4spd&gt;&gt;
01 gmc sierra

Sorry i did misread it.I dont think you will have a problem shooting etch over the POR15.Of course you wont get the benefit of the 'Etch' from the etch prime because it will be on top of the POR.I dont know if it will help,but it wont hurt.

Why wuold you prime over POR is your going to put the vinyl roof back on? Is there glue that needs etched metal or what? (im vinyl top illiterate. There would be zero benefit to doing that, unless its necessary for glue adhesion or something. Would the etch even etch POR? If so, wouldnt this cause the POR to become less effective by breaking the seal it provides over the metal?

the etching primer will or can seperate from the por. it will not stick. i would not do that. your top has a great chance of seperating. you should put por-15's "TIE COAT" that is a primer that will bond to the por-15. then you can put what ever you want on top of that. the etching primer wold be useless unless it is going over metal. that the only thing it etches to.

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I couldn't repair my brakes, so I made my horn louder.
Just let me apolagize for my spelling right now!
www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC Gold#1460, VCEA#2, SCPC#44
68-72 Wagon resto & mod info, parts & sales.

thanks guys, the reason I was going to etch prime over the por was just the ease of shooting the whole care with etch rather than masking off the por area and shooting the rest of the car. I have the por primer, so I will just por-prime over the por then paint the top before installing the vinyl top. the rest of the car is bare metal so that I will etch prime. thanks guys I've learned so much on this site.

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Michael

www.geocities.com/msctech2002/chevelle

T.C. member # 758
ACES member # 4292

69 malibu convertible
69 malibu h/t 307/pg
&lt;&lt;this space reserved for 66/67 chevelle 4spd&gt;&gt;
01 gmc sierra

Sounds like too much work to me just to put adhesive all over it and glue the top on. Are you sure the POR and vinyl top adhesive are compatible? If it was me, I'd call the POR people and ask them if it was ok to use vinyl top adhesive over their product. Usually it says "not designed to be top coated". Best guess would be that means mainly paint, but other stuff too.

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BUZZBOMB (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/deadkennedys/buzzbomb.html)

I'd vote for POR tie-coat primer over the POR, then paint with the rest of the car, then glue the top on. As I've said elsewhere lately, adhesion of ANYTHING other than the tie coat primer to POR 15 has been a big problem for me. Just my .02.

You might check the suitable substrates for your etching primer - it might work ok to shoot it over the POR tie coat primer.

Another vote for Por's Tie-coat primer here. If I remember right, vinyl top cars are painted first anyway before the vinyl is glued on. So first apply Por 15, their Tie-coat primer, then whatever finish you plan on spraying.

This is the very reason why I say STAY with ONE paint manufacture from metal clear. When you start mixing brands, ANYTHING can happen and you will not get a good answer from any of the companies you are working with.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Yeah but if you have to fill in pits, where does the filler come in on that list?

1. POR-15
2. Tie-coat primer
3. Filler
4. Etching primer
5. Color

????????????

I would not waste my time putting POR under a vinyl top. I would just treat the top just like the rest of the car and then put the top on after the paint is done. Seems like a very unnecessary step to me.

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Mat Ellison
Lincoln, Ne
70 SS 396 Chevelle
62 Impala Sport Coupe
2001 Grand Prix GT
Aces #2424

www.angelfire.com/amiga/elliboom (http://www.angelfire.com/amiga/elliboom)

All your base are belong to us

Etch is menat to be applied over bare steel and aluminum not a top coat,(can be but should be held to minimum) designed for adhesion and corrosion resistence. What do you plan on gaining from appling a etch or expoy or even painting if you have POR on?

I just dont get the point of painting on top of por if you plan on putting a top on it. I would check with por and find out their recommedations with vinyl tops!

Por15 is a good product but it has limitions just like everything out there, its not some cure all.

Steve_69, it depends on how deep the pits are. But Polyester primer can bury a quarter pretty easy.

1. Etch primer

2. Polyester primer

3. Paint or base/clear

4. Vinyl top or off, your choice.


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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

I had a bad experience with POR15 in this application. The car was on it's side when I applied the POR. The lower and I guess cooler area never cured and I ended up scraping it off and doing it the right way,etch primer topped with urethane primer. I would put my money on the major paint manufacturers(DuPont,Spies/Hecker,PPG,etc.)and use etch,toped with urethane or epoxy.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve_69:
Yeah but if you have to fill in pits, where does the filler come in on that list?

1. POR-15
2. Tie-coat primer
3. Filler
4. Etching primer
5. Color

????????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if your going to use por the order would be:
1. por marine clean
2. por metal ready
3. POR-15
4. Tie-coat primer
5. Filler (bondo, spot putty or fiber glass resin)
6. fill and sand primer not Etching primer
7. Color
8. glue
9. vinyl top

if you dont mind the work the por would keep it from rusting ever a gain. not a bad way to go in my opinion.

------------------
I couldn't repair my brakes, so I made my horn louder.
Just let me apolagize for my spelling right now!
www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC Gold#1460, VCEA#2, SCPC#44
68-72 Wagon resto & mod info, parts & sales.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GVMLS6:
I had a bad experience with POR15 in this application. The car was on it's side when I applied the POR. The lower and I guess cooler area never cured and I ended up scraping it off and doing it the right way,etch primer topped with urethane primer. I would put my money on the major paint manufacturers(DuPont,Spies/Hecker,PPG,etc.)and use etch,toped with urethane or epoxy.
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

por-15 cures with humidity. you should not have had to scrape it off. it must have been cold dry conditions and applied pretty darn thick. it would have cure given a little more time.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve_69:
Yeah but if you have to fill in pits, where does the filler come in on that list?

1. POR-15
2. Tie-coat primer
3. Filler
4. Etching primer
5. Color

????????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if your going to use por the order would be:
1. por marine clean
2. por metal ready
3. POR-15
4. Tie-coat primer
5. Filler (bondo, spot putty or fiber glass resin)
6. fill and sand primer not Etching primer
7. Color
8. glue
9. vinyl top

if you dont mind the work the por would keep it from rusting ever a gain. not a bad way to go in my opinion.

------------------
I couldn't repair my brakes, so I made my horn louder.
Just let me apolagize for my spelling right now!
www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC Gold#1460, VCEA#2, SCPC#44
68-72 Wagon resto & mod info, parts & sales.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MARTINSR:
Steve_69, it depends on how deep the pits are. But Polyester primer can bury a quarter pretty easy.

1. Etch primer

2. Polyester primer

3. Paint or base/clear

4. Vinyl top or off, your choice.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you use polyester prime make sure you read the directions,some brands say flat out- DON'T use over etch prime.

Oh yes, thanks. I usually say that too! PCL is my favorite brand and they do have a recommendation for etch. Evercoats does NOT.

By the way, I am sorry, I just DON'T like the "magic potions" offered with POR, RASS, and the like.

Remove the rust, treat the metal, and or etch prime. I just don't see the reason to use the "magic potions". There are "magic potions" in every industry. There are weight loss "magic potions", stop smoking "magic potions", engine rebuild "magic potions", leaking tranny "magic potions", and this subject of rust "magic potions". They are largely snake oils in my opinion. I assume there is some weight to thier claims, I assume there are some legitimate uses for them. But I go back to my beating the dead horse:
"No major (or minor) paint manufacture has one of these magic potions", WHY? The paint manufactures who sell the paint that covers the vehicles all over the face of the earth DON'T have one, WHY? DuPont, or PPG would die to have a product that would do as some of these "magic potions" claim. They would make millions on it. These companies are MANY, MANY times larger than the little "magic potion" companies. I assume this of course, I don't know much about them. But I assume the companies that make the paint for MILLIONS of cars even at the OEM level (PPG still paints ALL Chrylsers I believe) would have come up with something similar to the "magic potions" years ago. I mean they do have labs and "R&D" departments that are probably bigger than the whole "magic potion" company!

Now, there is some versions of these "magic potions" in the industrial industry but that is NOT the automotive industry. The products used in the industrial industry are quite different. They are usually, how can I say this, more of a "Bestest fastest way".

PPG, DuPont, Sikkins, Sherwin-Williams, NONE of them have these "magic potions".

Again, they may very well have a use, it is not found in any paint manufacture recommendation. It is NOT found in any auto manufacture, it is only found in the marketing dept of the supplier of the "magic potion". http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Sorry, that is just how I see it

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 12-06-2002).]

I agree that it is probably better to clean the metal good,apply self etch prime then a good epoxy or urethane primer than to use POR 15, or one of those products.See i dont think its a magic potion,POR 15 is very simple,you treat the surface with their marine clean,(simlpe degreaser)you treat the metal with Metal Ready(light etching acid,similar to whats in self etch prime or metal conditioner)Then you coat it with the paint,not sure what it is,probably some type of air/moisture cured urethane or epoxy.Now if the metal is treated, and is protected from air and moisture(the two things needed for rust to grow) it should hold down the rust,for how long is not certain,and have a durable finsh.It is without a doubt better to use a self etch or epoxy but it is a lot easier for the home restorer to use a product like POR in the trunk,on frame rails,suspension,ect.Than it would be to sand blast,prime and paint those areas with conventional methods.The reason the major paint makers dont make a product like POR,is its probaly not something they can guarantee and they already make superior products.I would say Using POR15 like they recomend is probably equal to using a metal conditioner and brushing on some DP primer.
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http://photos.yahoo.com/ochrisl
Updated 8/20 PAINT!

[This message has been edited by 70isfine (edited 12-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by 70isfine (edited 12-07-2002).]

The thing I don't like is that I have seen claims (sorry, I don't remember which company) that say to brush it right on after "you have brushed off any LOOSE rust"!!! Come on! Is that a joke or what? So, people see the name POR or RASS or what ever all over and they think this a good idea.

I agree, I really don't know much about the products. And if you were to use it JUST like you would another paint product and clean the rust COMPLETELY off and then apply the products, in some where like a trunk, it should work fine.

I just don't like seeing posts about how to thin it to shoot on under paint and things like that. For goodness sakes, get the RIGHT product offered by the paint manufacture that you will be painting with and use it.

All these "magic potions" are at best is "another" way to cover up metal prior to PROPER undercoats or top coats.

If used like you would ANY other metal conditioner or primer I assume they would work ok. But as I said before, THAT is not how they are marketed. They are marketed as a SNAKE OIL, a fix all to your rust. "Just brush off any loose rust" and your rust will be gone FOREVER. That is just a plain out and out lie.

I have dealt with companies that have to keep a fleet of trucks, trailers, tractors, blades, track layers, etc. running year after year on the edge of the ocean (one shop was a few hundred yards from the water!). If they would have relied on one of these magic potions and their claims they would be out of business. No, they used sandblasting, etching primer, epoxy primer and urethane top coats to keep the fleet running. There is just no replacement for properly cleaning the metal.


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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

I agree with the marketing strategy being a little decieving,i mean POR stands for Paint Over Rust.If you read the info on their website they stress that you MUST follow their procedure for it to work.Anyway the problem i had with POR was not the ability to hold down rust its that it is very prone to peeling and brake fluid will take it off like paint stripper.Not too cool if you have your engine compartment painted with it.Well it is what it is,tons of people use it,i agree its not the best aproach but i guess it depends on the circumstances.But i do scratch my head when i hear someone say they had their frame,or whatever sandblasted clean,then POR 15 it.If its clean metal why not etch prime it and paint it?

ahh another por-15 debate. when you consider something a magic potion it's only because you dont understand. factories dont paint cars with por-15 because that is not the intended use of por-15. smooth new metal is not what por-15 is for. new cars are not coming from the factory with rust pits. i just hate to hear bashing of something that has proven itself to me over and over then hear the reasons for the bashing are incorrect.

Not once did I say that "new car manufactures don't use it". I did mention car manufactures but only in the sense that they have VERY strick guidelines as to how a car can be refinished to maintain their warrantee. NONE have any recommendations for POR or any other magic potion.

Now, I said a heck of a lot in my posts, that is all you can pick out?

How about some other points that were made? How come PPG and the like don't have a product that they would claim to do what POR claims?

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

I believe Martin said it best "There is just no replacement for PROPER metal cleaning" I remember reading their ads, just scrap off rust scale- brush on and KILL rust forever...whatever The only way to KILL rust is to remove it not cover it up and believe its gone cause the ads say so.

POR15 is probably the biggest misunderstood and misused product on the market. People think POR15 is some cure all for all that ailes.

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1970 chevelle
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a BUICK BABY
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/sevt_chevelles

I agree with you Martin. My limited use of POR 15 on trunk floors,interior floors,under vinyl tops have led me to conclude that it is vastly inferior to a major paint mfgr system of etch plus urethane primer,topcoated with urethane single stage. While I think these "snake oils" have their place in amateur restorations and trunk and interior floors, they really shouldn't be used in top flight,professional restorations, especially on outer body panels and frames. I know many will disagree, but thonk about it. Do you really think a 1K product can be anywhere near as durable as a 2K?
Gordon VM
Restoration Motorsports

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MARTINSR:
Not once did I say that "new car manufactures don't use it". I did mention car manufactures but only in the sense that they have VERY strick guidelines as to how a car can be refinished to maintain their warrantee. NONE have any recommendations for POR or any other magic potion.

Now, I said a heck of a lot in my posts, that is all you can pick out?

How about some other points that were made? How come PPG and the like don't have a product that they would claim to do what POR claims?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MARTINSR, i'm not trying to pick apart what you are saying.
i should have just bit my toung last night. i did not say it should be used on body panels... i'm not going to say any more on this. it has its uses. is all i'm saying. it is not a magic potion or snake oil. the other products cant claim what por-15 does because they cant do what por-15 does. its that simple. lets see how long a properly cleaned rusted frame will last up against other products compared to por-15. por bonds to porce surface very well, it does not let oxygen permiate to the previously rusted piece to allow it to further rust, and it is hard enough to beat with a hammer when cured.
i dont have time or desire to debate this any further. live in ignorance. i will continue to use it with sucess along with thousands of other people who are not building new cars. go ahead doubt the PROFESSIONALISM of it. thank god i have the freedom to rebuild my cars how i want to. but dont ignorantly bash it and keep others from trying this superior (for perticular uses) product. peace out http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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I couldn't repair my brakes, so I made my horn louder.
Just let me apolagize for my spelling right now!
www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC Gold#1460, VCEA#2, SCPC#44
68-72 Wagon resto & mod info, parts & sales.

In my case it's the roof. I understand anything that you do to cause warping, or any time you have rust through the roof, or otherwise have a situation where you have to do major repairs it's almost impossible to fix right. Is this not correct?

The rust pits in a few areas are deep enough to where I worry about blasting the area free of rust, or otherwise doing something that might go through the little remaining good metal.

I am thinking that POR-15 would be best for a sensitive area like this, and since it's going to be covered by a vinyl top my main concern is stopping and containing the rust as well as doing minor clean up and fill.

Now if you have a better way for my situation I am all ears.

What about that spray that claims to turn rust into something else? I may need to use that in a few hard to reach areas. Unless you have other suggestions on how to clean those hard to reach areas that have rust.

Thanks!
Steve

man, I didnt mean to start a heated debate on por-15, but it was interesting and got me to thinking. which is one of the benefits of this site. I changed my strategy up a little. I value MARTINSR opinions, as I do everyone here. as far as the roof goes I didnt use the por. the roof wasnt rusty, I just wanted to coat to prevent rust. I decided to use the etching primer,2k prime, paint then put the top on. but I do have to respectfully disagree with MARTINSR on one thing, I dont think por is a snake oil, at least with my limited experience. I think it has its place.the trunk was very pitted and I wasnt going to replace the trunk pan because of pits and there was no way to fully clean all rust out of the pits, besides taking it to have it sandblasted, so I used a wire brush and removed the loose rust, put down por-15, tie coat primer then the spatter paint. A very economical and I feel permanant fix for the trunk area, now I have since taken the idea that I will not use it on the exterior body panels. I will take any means necessary to clean the rust from the body and etch prime, then fill prime. thanks guys for making this site one of the most educational sites on chevelles.

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Michael


T.C. member # 758
ACES member # 4292

69 malibu convertible
69 malibu h/t 307/pg
&lt;&lt;this space reserved for 66/67 chevelle BB/4spd&gt;&gt;
01 gmc sierra

69rag, you made the right choice. por is not good in your roof situation or exterior panels. your trunk was. your getting the hang of it. your open mindedness will take you far. good luck. oh and hopefully all disagreements are made respectfully here. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

FO_FDYFO, I was with you until the "live in ignorance" part. We were discussing a product and it's claims, that was unnessisary. I admited that I have next to zero knowledge about this particular product. I am going with my experiance (far from ignorant) and making an educated opinion that the claims the POR company make or "imply" are not true. I feel that with proper preporation products within the paint line you are using, along with all the technecal info you could ever want would do a better job. I am saying this without any knowledge of the technology POR is using, I don't need it to make the statements I have. You are better off staying within ONE line of products from metal to clear, period.

Now, I am also willing to argee that you along with 70isfine have POR has it's place. I have already said that.

When you do something that varies from the "standard practices of the industry" expect some questioning. POR does just that, that is all I am saying.

Steve_69, I don't know enough about POR to tell you without a doubt that it wouldn't be a good choice for you at this point. I have never used it and done many things like you are up against. With metal treatment and or etch primers and epoxy, polyester, or urethane primers. Without seeing what you have in person I can't say.

69ragtop, I agree, THAT sounds like the perfect use for POR. The one thing I don't like is the use of "permanent" when describing the repair. It is possible that you have cleaned and sealed TOP and BOTTOM to provide you with a very good repair. But the word "permanent" sounds too much like POR's ridicules claims.


Believe me, SEALING the area is MUCH more important than the product used. You could put lacquer primer on it and shoot undercoat out of a rattle can and get a longer lasting job than using POR or PPGs etch primer and epoxy. If you have NOT sealed EVERY SINGLE seam and access for moisture, you have wasted your time.













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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"