After waiting for several months for the body shop to be ready to do the paint and body work on my el camino, I finally got it in to them last November. As they are a collision shop, they said that it would be approximately three months for them to complete the work. It has now been six months. I went over there yesterday and discovered they have done no work to the car whatsoever. They now say that they can give me no firm commitment as to when the car will be finished. I think what bugs me even more, is that when I took the car to them, it was in bare metal. While the car was at my home, I took great pains to make sure the car did not get wet to avoid rust. I looked at the car yesterday, and its clear that the car has been wet. The core support is rusted to hell and there’s flash rust all over the car.

Here’s the dilemma: I have known the manager at the shop for years, we were even in the scouts together as kids. This is one of the reasons I took it to them. I trusted him.

He had asked for a portion of the bill prior to beginning work, I was agreeable, and I have pretty much paid for the car in full. So now I’m in a position where they have both my car and my money and don’t seem to be anxious to begin working on the car anytime soon.

What should I do? Should I leave the car there and just keep waiting or should I pull it out and risk a court battle over the money? I hate being stuck!

If they won't even try to humor you with a date, then you have no choice but to pull the car and demand your money back.
They haven't touched the car so small claims court should be a slam dunk (if it goes that far) and only takes (from what I am told) about 30 days to get a date.
Give them one more chance to tell you when the work will begin (better be soon) or send them a certified letter demanding your money back and sue um.

This is exactly how I learned to do body work. Good luck... At least they have not started it yet. Mine was started, they had it a year, it sat out under a carport and rusted for 3 months, I finally hauled it home and taught myself how to do it myself. Took two years all together but it is almost completely finished. Got the horn to fix and the final detailing. The guy was a former student and a really great friend of mine. Now we don't even talk. :(

Tim,
They have your money. They've probably already spent your money. your car continues to rust everday it sits there. The only motivation they have to work on it is they're integrity which at this point is very suspect. There's no more money to be made on it. Get it out of there and don't look back. Take steps to get your money back.
Lance

There's a freind that lives in Moorpark that just had his El Camino painted. It took a while but it wasn't six months. He posts here as BigMoe65. Give him a shout and I'm sure he'll fill you in on the bodyshop he used.

Well I just got off the phone with the shop. The owner practically begged me to give them a second chance to finish the car. He said he was going to have a meeting with all involved and see what they can do to move things along. I asked that he also consider what he feels I would owe for the work done to date should I decide to pull the car. Said he would call me back this afternoon.

Stay tuned.

Does the shop owner still do body work or just run the show? Unless one of his guys wants some extra money by doing your car in the evenings and on weekends it will never get done.

The the shop that did my car was also a collision shop and good body men make a lot of money doing collision work in less time than spec'ed. The shop foreman had to do all the work on my car in the winter evenings and weekends.
Did you every wonder why more shops don't want to do restorations? They can't make as much money and the customers (us) are too picky about the end result.

Good luck!

It is late for you to use the information below to avoid all pain but not too late to avoid any more.

First off, If you plan on giving him another chance DEMAND that something is done in a given time. I say ONE WEEK is fair to do at least one small thing, how about getting the rust squared away!!
DO NOT let up, give him ONE WEEK to so one FULL step. If he wants to straighten the front fenders and get them in primer, fine but SOMETHING for God's sake!

If he stumbles on this, TAKE THE CAR make it REAL clear that this is what is going to happen. Don't play the "I'm your friend, we will work it out", your "friend" is SCREWING YOU He "may" have been a friend at one time, NOW he is just someone who will SCREW YOU. Use the advice in my "Basics" of choosing a shop on breaking it down to bite size pieces. DEMAND that you get these bite size pieces done ON TIME. I wish you luck, and I hope you have the balls to do this, it is not easy, I know. This is the very reason I hardly ever go to friends. I would LOVE to give them my money but it is so painful when things like this happen. But I can tell you this, treat it like BUSINESS with anyone else and you will be much better off.
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Confessions of a body shop owner.

“Anybody know of a good body shop in (enter your city name here)?”, “How do I get my body shop to work on my car?”, “My car is being held for ransom!”, or just simply “Body shop Blues”. I’m sure you have all seen topics similar to these posted. Gentlemen, my name is MARTINSR and I was one of those dirty rotten bastards that would keep your car ten times longer than I promised.

For the guy not doing his own body work or at least not all of it, he is at the mercy of the body shop. It is not a nice position to be in. In fact, it can go down as one of the low points in your life. I have seen horror stories that would make your hair stand on end. A long time customer of mine (he owned about 60 cars and usually had a few in shops around the area at all times) had a car that was held as evidence in a murder. Yep, it had blood splattered on it when one of the shops owners killed the other with a baseball bat!

The following is my generalization of restoration shops that I have owned, seen or worked at. There are exceptions to the rule. Please don’t beat me up if I have rolled your shop into the mix when you are an exception. But, if you do see yourself, I suggest you get down to your neighborhood junior college and take a course or two in business. One of the great myths is that we each think our business is so unique, we can’t learn from a “regular” business class. Well after much instruction and exposure to the business side of things I can tell you, business is BUSINESS. Whether you are running a liqueur store, a cat house, or a body shop, they are all exactly the same. Sales are SALES, period.

So, we can agree a body shop is a business, being a good body man does not make you a good businessman. Restoration shops are usually owned by good body men, not good businessmen. It is very hard to make money doing restoration work, it is very easy to make money doing regular collision work. The business man makes his money doing collision work and tells all the customers with restoration work to go to Joe’s Body shop down the street, he does the restorations. Joe loves doing what he is doing, but seldom makes much money. He is an artist, a true master at his craft. Joe sees things at what they can “become”, not what they “are”. When Joe sees a car he doesn’t see the time it will take to make it the show winner he knows it will be, he only sees it as the show winner. I really don’t believe he means to lie to you when he says it will be done in a month, he is looking at through rose colored glasses, his vision is altered. Like a woman forgets the pain of giving birth, so does Joe when he gazes upon the beautiful car he has carried for nine months (or longer). And when the next rust bucket rolls in, he has forgotten about the hundreds of hours needed, he only sees a luscious rose garden.

Like I said few make a living at restoration or hot rod work. The biggies that you have heard of like Roy Brizio or Boyd Codington all make money with other ventures, not the rod shop. The first time I visited Brizios shop this was very apparent. The rod shop is about 5000 square feet sitting in the middle of a 50,000 square foot building. The rest of the building is Brizios manufacturing business. It is all non auto related by the way. The rod shop is a hobby, I don’t doubt for a second he makes money, but it is a hobby none the less.

So when you go looking for a shop to do your car you have to remember this, you are most likely going to be dealing with an artist. If you think the business end of it is going to go smooth, think again. If you build yourself up and believe everything, you are in for a BIG let down. If you set yourself up for less than that you will be much better off. I suggest getting ready for MUCH, MUCH less and then you will be happy when it only takes five months instead of the ten you got ready for. If he said one month and that is what you are planning, by the time five months rolls around you are ready to kill someone.

These are HUGE generalizations but I have found a few signs that may help you in picking out a shop. If nothing else they will help you understand who you are dealing with.

1. If there is more than one car sitting in the shop covered with dust, this may be a bad sign. If you have been around body shops much you know that dust build up is like the rings in a tree, you can tell by the layers and colors how many YEARS it has been sitting. If there is a car that is being used for storage of misc. boxes and things, bad sign. My brother used to joke that I should bolt a vise on the fender of the car, at least I could get some use out of it! Coyly ask “Cool car, is that yours?” if he says “Naw, it’s a customers”, BAD SIGN. If there are ten stalls in the shop and six have dust covered cars in them, RUN. I shouldn’t have to tell you this one, but if there are guys hanging around with beers in their hands, RUN.


2. How many stalls does he have? I have found that the real restoration/rod shops seem to have only room to have three or four cars at a time. If you only had room to work on three cars, you are going to be damn certain they get out so you can have room for the next. One of the most successful custom shops I have ever seen was a little four stall shop in Pittsburgh California. It is the famous (well at least on the west coast) DeRosa and son Customs. Frank has been around since the fifties making show winning cars. He and his son Frank Jr. do the same today and do it FAST. They run a neat, little and clean shop. If you have seen the 2001 DuPont calendar they did the “Cadster”. It was only in the shop for a few weeks. By the way, it doesn’t have DuPont primers on it like the calendar says, Martin Senour primer was used.

3. Does he look at your car like they do at the McPaint shops, you know, all jobs all colors the same price? If he doesn’t take a good long look at the car taking notes, he has no clue what he is doing. He is looking at the car with those rose colored glasses. Every single panel should be examined and noted for the amount of hours needed. If he just looks over the car without doing this he is surely going to be WAY off. If he is way off on how much he is charging you, what incentive does he have to work on it?


So let’s say you have a shop you would like to bring it to, you really need to case the joint. Turn into a stalker and keep an eye on the shop. You know for months that you are going to need a body shop. Watch the shops for months. Drive by during business hours and see if they are actually open. Many of these guys (remember they are not good businessmen) take their open sign as sort of a guide line. If it says 8:00 to 5:00 it is more like 9:15 to 2:00 then 4:25 to 7:00, they can’t get your car done like that. See if any cars leave. If you go by there and see the same cars sitting there and many little jobs going in and out, BAD SIGN. I have to tell you, those little money making collision jobs are dang hard to turn away. If I had a million hour job sitting there and it was the 28th of the month I am going to set it aside for the $800.00 job I can do in two days to pay the rent.

If they don’t allow you to walk around and check the place out, be wary. Look at the paint dept, does he have a booth? Is there junk and open cans all over? Is there many different brands of paint? This is usually not a good sign, he buys anything he can get his hands on. This is many times the sign of a “junior chemist”, they guy that mixes products and doesn’t follow tech sheets.

If you have decided that this is the shop you want to go to, help the poor guy. You “suggest” to him how you want to go about the money part. This is the ONLY way you should do it believe me. Don’t ever give him a deposit and leave the car. This is darn near a guarantee that your car will be sitting for weeks or MONTHS while he uses that money to buy parts for a high profit collision job or simply pay a long standing bill. Which then leaves your car sitting there with no incentive to work on it.

Here is what you need to do. Tell him that you want to do only ONE of the things on your car, at a time. You want to get a price for all of them maybe so you know what it is headed, but do only one at a time. You will pay him for one step at a time. Not because you don’t trust him, but because YOU are bad with money and that YOU don’t want to leave him hanging after the car is done with no money to pick it up.

This way it is more like he is in control and made the decision. Then you negotiate the time it will take for each step. Let’s say you have patch panels to do on the front fenders. You agree that he will have them done at the end of the week, and that they will cost $200.00. He has something to work for, he knows he will get the money and he actually does it. You go see him on Friday see the work done and give him the $200.00. Then you pick another thing to do. Just as if you were doing these things at home, break them down into bite sized pieces so he can swallow them. If you go in there and find that he hasn’t done it or he has done poor work, you can then say “I am sorry to yank your chain, I don’t have any more money, I just lost my job” and take the car, no body owes a thing. If he does not want to do this, you really need to start rethinking your choice of a shop. Either this or variation of this should be fine with him. If it is not, something is wrong.

If he really wanted to make money he would be doing this. The first restoration job I ever did where I really felt I made money was done just this way. It was a little ’58 Bug eye Sprite. I had decided that something had to be done or I would fall into the same trap as before with a car sitting forever. One of the first shops I ever worked at was a full on restoration shop. It broke the rule and was pretty big, with four full time employees. Every car had a time card assigned to it. When you worked on the car, you punched in. Then each month (these were HUGE frame off restorations on 30’s and 40’s vintage Fords) the owner would receive a bill with the times worked. If they couldn’t pay, the car left, period. The guy made money and I finally got smart (after about 12 years in business) and followed his lead. I put a sign on this Bug Eye and would post the hours I spent on it. I told the guy to come by each week. Now, when the guy came in and saw only two hours were spent, he was not very happy. That was a heck of an incentive for me right there I will tell you that! It worked great, I actually got paid for every minute I worked, unlike most restoration projects. And he actually got the car back in close to what I said. It was still late, but not ten times as late as I had done before.

Another thing I highly recommend is to take plenty of photos of the car, really detailed photos. When you drop the car off leave him a copy of them. Letting him know you have a copy. Not threatening like “I am doing this so I can prove you lied to me” more like “I can’t wait to see how different it is and you can have these before shots to show future customers”. Which is true, it is just not the only reason you are doing it. If he is doing a full on restoration for you, I HIGHLY recommend parts like chrome and interior be taken home after he removes them so they don’t get stolen or damaged. You need to have a very close relationship with the shop, if these visits make the guy edgy, you really need to find another shop.

If you have the attitude that you are genuinely interested in how this work is done, not how he will do YOUR car, but just in general. You will find that he will be much more likely to “show off” his talents than if you go in there like an untrusting customer.

Along with these photos you want a VERY detailed work order. Run like the wind if he has no work order. Still run if he has a work order that says “fix dents and rust” as the repairs being done. RUN, I say. You need to have a fully detailed work order, not for legal reasons (wink, wink) but for your own records to show the wife where all the money went. The “wife” is a great way to get things done. You need to come look to see what is done because the wife wants to see. Bring her in there, she has an excuse, she knows nothing right? So you bring her in to see what magic this guy is doing to your car so she can understand why it costs so much. Bring a friend when you drop the car off, be sure he hears everything that is said. Let him or her help you make the decision on leaving it there. Sometimes YOU too can be looking through rose colored glasses. If someone else says they have a bad feeling, LISTEN to them.

There are few things that can compare with returning to a shop to find the place is locked tight and the mail is piling up on the floor where the carrier has dropped it through the slot. I have seen it, it really happens. The good news is it is rare, just take your time and find a shop where you feel comfortable.

Well I just got a call from the shop. They were again very apologetic and said that they really want to finish the car.

What he basicly said was, "we go back a long way Tim and I don't want to jeopardize our friendship over a car." I kinda liked that, because I feel the same way. He said that he will personally monitor the status of my car on a weekly basis and make sure he has guys available to work on it. Also gave me his word that the car would be finished by mid-July. He even offered me additional services at no extra charge.

Now why couldn't it have been this way from the start? Its a shame when you have to get upset to get your due.

Life is good again graemlins/thumbsup.gif

edit: I will, however, be making visits to the shop on a weekly basis to monitor their progress for myself. I still trust them I suppose, but it is a "guarded" trust.

MARTINSR: I have read your basics of basics before. Wish I would have followed your advice. I think this may work out okay though. If not, I have already spoken to a lawyer. I'll give them a week to make some progress. I'm told he has a guy on it right now D/A sanding the rust.

TimC thats great to hear. Martin as always excellent advice. Just one that I should add or maybe I missed it, study the guys actually doing the work. Just my experience is that guys that dont get along dont really care, dont care to help each other to get to a better end result. I worked with a guy that when you asked him to help you for a second he would look at you and give you a look of You going to PAY me for that minute When you have that attitude floating around in the shop its not a good one.

One last thing is drop by several times around quitting time. Do the guys leave right at 5 or do they stick around for awhile finishing things up? I know I can contest to that one, right now am not very happy with my current shop have been for past year. Ive being there 3 years this July, anyway right now am not happy and dont really care to be there, when I see its 5pm AM DONE. In past I would finish things up so I could get a fresh start for the next day, times when I left at 7pm. Now if am in mid swing of a hammer and its 5pm and all it needs is one last blow of the hammer Ill stop and go home, p*** on it Ill do it tommorrow. When you have that attitude the work quailty suffers, as I no longer put in my full 110%. And if he fires me so what just give me more incentive to move south like Ive always wanted. Sorry for the long raunt...Eric

Originally posted by sevt_chevelle:
And if he fires me so what just give me more incentive to move south like Ive always wanted.Come to Houston, we need more good restoration guys! The guy who runs the shop that is doing my floors and trunk says he is thinking about adding someone...

I've done two cars in the last few years with totally different experiences.

The first car (a 73 MG) I went to a local restoration shop that had good recommendations. I totally disassembled it prior to sending it, but it needed minor rust repairs and new floor pans installed. There were some very nice cars in this shop (I'll digress- while I was there a rearended 68 Chevelle was towed in, it had just been restored recently, and now needed to be totally redone AGAIN), and the work quality was excellent. BUT, it took almost 9 months to finish, and this was a tiny car! It wasn't that they weren't working on it, they just had other cars to work on also, plus at the end of the month it seemed that all the restoration work was put aside and only collision repairs were being done (I was there almost every week to check on it). I would also come in one week and the doors were painted, but the next week they were back in primer- the painter wasn't satisfied with the straightness, so they stripped and reprepped them. When it was finally done, the paint and body were perfect; this was a show quality paint job, and priced accordingly ($4500). They had given me an estimate at the beginning of $2500, I deposited half the estimate, and paid the balance when I picked it up. As you can see the price went up due to the amount of time spent on it, I didn't have a clue what the total would be til I picked it up- he wouldn't even hazard a guess when I asked part way thru. From the amount of work done the price was reasonable, but I was still shocked at how long it took and how much it cost.

When it came time to paint the 69 Chevelle, the same shop quoted $6,000 to $10,000. I would have loved to see what they would have done, but that was a bit pricey for a car I plan on driving a lot. So I found a Maaco shop (no snickering!)and started to deal with them. The owner is a member of a local Mustang club, and that club uses his shop for all their drivers (but not their show cars). The shop was clean, through-put was good (none of the cars I saw on my first visit were still there on the second visit), quality of the finished cars was good, and the shop foreman was very excited to work on the car. I did all the preliminary prep work (minor rust repair, stripping all the trim, windows, interior, vinyl top, etc.), towed it in, and they inspected it and quoted a price of $1300 to prep and paint with base coat/ clear coat Patriot Blue and three stage Diamond Pearl stripes. During the inspection they found a bump I had missed, and included the price to fix that in the quote. They notified me when the base coat was on so I could check it, made sure I was there when they masked for the stripes, and even painted the sport mirrors I brought in later to match. Total time was less than two weeks, final price was same as the quoted price, and even though it's not a show quality job, it's 100 times better than what I started with. The only fault I could find is they forgot to cover the steering wheel when they sprayed the stripes, so I had some pearl paint overspray to clean off.

I think one of the keys is communication- everybody should know what is expected, and when. I received totally different yet excellent service from both establishments: I would recommend the first shop to anyone with deep pockets and patience that wants perfection, and I would recommend the second shop to anyone that wants good quality on a fixed budget.

a lot of guys rag on Macco and other such shops but a guy in my club ahs had two cars he did the body work on painted by our local Macco for less than a grand both times and they are nice jobs. Not the big buck jobs but good "cruiser" paint jobs and his cars weren't sitting in someones shop or carport rusting for 1/2 a year.

I've never tried Maaco, but I had a 69 Mercury Cougar painted by 1-day about ten years ago and it was a real decent paint job and I received alot of compliments. I went with their premium package and I think it cost about $600. The car really didn't need any body work though. I wasn't so lucky tis time.

More on my current project...

I now have a weekly appointment with the body shop to check their progress. Looks like this is going to work out. I was surprised yesterday evening when I visited them at about 6:00 p.m. because the owner (he's probably in his 70's) was personally overseeing the work that was being done and was pointing things out to the workers. The rusted core support is now as shiny as it was when I took it to them graemlins/thumbsup.gif I guess they had a crew working overtime yesterday.

During my weekly visits, I intend to bring a camera so I can document their progress. Maybe I'll post pics along the way. The goal for the week is to get the car sealed (in DP40?). Who knows, maybe in the end I'll be singing their praises.

Hey Tim!
Looks like we're in the same neck of the woods.
I'm currently in the proccess of scouting body shops for my 66. I'm going to visit one in Pomona on Saturday. I would like to know the name and address of the shop you are using, in case they turn out good results and you are happy with their work.

Originally posted by Mondo454:
Hey Tim!
Looks like we're in the same neck of the woods.
I'm currently in the proccess of scouting body shops for my 66. I'm going to visit one in Pomona on Saturday. I would like to know the name and address of the shop you are using, in case they turn out good results and you are happy with their work. Armando,

Yeah, looks like you're just a city over.

The manager over there is a friend of mine. So at this point, I would rather not mention the name of the shop on the board as some of my earlier comments might be construed as a vendor bash. I will e-mail you with the name, but I would prefer if you kept it to yourself for now. If all works out I will, of course, post the name here. The shop has a good reputation in this area and from what I've seen, they do excellent work (just takes 'em some time to get to it sometimes!). They are not the cheapest shop around, and as I understand it, for now, they are not accepting any new restoration work. I waited something like five months to get my car in there.

Alright Tim. I told you I don't get over here very often. Get your car back. Saturday, guaranteed, we'll do it. I'll drag out the Wagner sprayer, haul out a case of beer, and we'll have at it. Won't be rusting no more.

Should I leave the car there and just keep waiting or should I pull it out and risk a court battle over the money? I hate being stuck! Get a lawyer. Pay the $200. You paid more for the car right?! Did you pay with something traceable like a check to prove you paid him and when?
Take photos and get the car home in the dry, fast. Find another shop. Cut your losses. Get the metal treated, go to small claims court and have him charged for the extra work.
Get a lawyer.