Some history first....My car is a 72 2dr.coupe.Had been repainted about 15 yrs.ago over the original paint.Original paint was scuff sanded and sealed with DP90.The new paint was applied by a friend in his garage.I cannot remember for sure ,but I think he used a single stage acrylic enamel.(PPG)Color was Mulsanne Blue Metallic.Paint job turned out ok...but did have some dirt and some very small runs that I never had fixed.I am now in the process of re-doing the body.I have replaced one rear quarter and outer wheelhouse,as well as fixing the typical rust in corner of rear window channel.The body sheetmetal is now rust free som I'm beginning to work on sanding down the rest of the body panels for priming.I really dont want to strip all paint off, just thin out the top paint layer almost down to the DP90.So my questions are:
</font> 1.What is the best order of applying my primer layers prior to color coat?
2.What is anyone's opinion on the Sherwin Williams "Ultra" line of primers/sealers?</font> My intent is to get the car completed to the final blocking stage,then have a shop put on color coat and clear. Any advice you paint pro guys can give would really be great.TIA Don :cool:

Your getting to the point that it probably should be stripped. graemlins/angry.gif Mike

My take is to do exactly as you are planing. If you want total perfection and have a LOT of time, strip it. Be warned, stripping will TRIPLE, at the very least, the amount of time for the project.

If you were to sand it smooth, basicly blocking it flat. Then put a few coats of a urethane primer like S-W P6A47 (Tint prime) and then sand it and shoot your color you will not be any thicker to speak of than you are now.

S-W products like every brand out there have good products and bad products. We use it every day where I work (about 150 cars a month) and I repped it for 5 years. It is a good product and will do everything you ask it. But the most important thing is that you have good support in the store. If you have a PPG or DuPont dealer in town, go by and see how they treat you. See if you can find someone who has dealt with them to see if they give good support and know what they are talking about. That is more important than the brand. You WILL be getting to know these guys REAL GOOD by the time you are through with your car. You want them to be someone that you will WANT to be that close with.

The paint that is on the car is tight.No cracks,bubbles.why should I have to do a total strip if I remove most of the second paint job paint layer? All places that have been sanded through are primed with etch primer.New quarter panel was epoxy primed over e-coat.Anyone else out there have another opinion? And how about some feedback on the Sherwin-Williams "Ultra" paint line.Anyone used this on their car? :confused: I appreciate any and all feedback and comments.
Help an old man out. :D :D Don't make me beg. :mad: lol Thanks guys.....Don :cool:

Thanks Martinsr for that comeback.I was hoping you'd spot my post and comment.I have a SW store about 2mi.from the house,but have not ever been their store.Last time I did paint work was about 16 yrs ago and I used a independent supplier.First chance I getI'll pay them a visit and explain what I want to do and see how they react. By the way, didn't you post a "Basics" thread on the proper sequences of body prep prior to painting? I did a search and could not find it.Anyway,thanks again.I always enjoy your comments and contributions to this site.Ive learned a lot. Don :cool:

S-W ultra brand of paint is good. My shop used to spray S-W paint but switched to PPG for a few reasons, one the support at the dealer was terrible, and we had nothing but problems with the clears. The clears we shot were 630 and 635 and one other one we tried but no luck(forgot the number). We had problems with fisheyes, loss of gloss, and something I cant really explain. About a minute after spraying the clear would appear to be MOVING-kinda like bubbling water, then disappear. The gloss would still loss its shine after buffing and not return to its full look of just painted shine. Two other shops in our area sprayed S-W paint and both of them had the same problems. We switched to PPG, one switched to Dupont the other remained with S-W but sprays PPG clear. We did the PPG clear thing for about 5 months then fully switched and had no problems with the PPG clear on S-W paint. All in all I really like the S-W products just not happy with the clears they had...Eric

I just painted my 68 Chevelle last week with Sherwin-Williams base -clear Ultra System. I let it dry for a couple days then blocked it with 1200 then 1500.and wheeled it twice. I then used swirl remover by hand and it looks like a show car paint job, and I'm no professional car painter. It has a real deep shine that looks great. The sanding and wheeling is the key. It removes all the dirt and orange peel. It's time consuming but well worth it...

It's been my experience that acrylic enamel is very hard to sand.Just went through this on my buddies GS.I've found most older paints stay very gummy and clog the sandpaper so bad it's not worth trying to sand it.Try sanding a spot and see.If the rest of the body is pretty clean(no bondo)I would much rather pull the parts and brush some stripper on them than try and sand that enamel off.Sounds to me like you have the skills to do it the right way,and it will last a long time.
If I get a used hood that is all chipped up I usually Air Craft stripper it,etch prime and seal it.If the hood has no damage it actually takes less time doing it this way.After sealing I sand lightly if needed (dirt nubs) and shoot my color and clear.My work has to be guaranteed for as long as you own the car!!
I havn't used Sherwin Williams in a long time but have also heard of painters having problems with their clear.MartinSR uses it in his shop,used to be a paint rep and recomends trying Dupont or PPG???
Almost every painter I know has their own way of doing things and you could probably get 50 different opinions on how to paint your car.Is one right and one wrong, no it's whatever works for that particular painter.Way more than my .02. Mike

69ssmike Your comment on old paint being hard to sand got me thinking.....I was guessing on the paint thatmy old buddy sprayed on my car.It may have been urethane,I just can't remember.Any way to test the finish with different solvents to see which one "lifts" the paint film?lacquer thinner would probably act on the enamel ,but not have much effect on the urethane,am I right? :confused: I did sand the trunk lid with my d/a with 120 grit and the disk did not load up at all and the surface is pretty smooth.I haven't positively decided which brand to go with yet.It all seems like a crap shoot sometimes.Well thanks for your input. Don :cool:

Mike, don't put words in my mouth. graemlins/clonk.gif If there is one thing I learned as a paint rep EVERY SYSTEM HAS GOOD POINTS AND BAD POINTS. And not only that, EVERY SYSTEM WILL WORK IF THE PAINTER WANTS IT TO. Of course that is as long as the painter has the skills. PLEASE, THIS IS NOT A DIG TOWARDS YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Lets face it, we are all different and not every painter has the skills to open any can and be given a different gun and perform.

Think about it, there are guys who SWEAR by a SATA and some other guy will say they are junk and he is doing flawless work with a Sharpe. Then there are guys who will say XXX paint is JUNK and then right next door is another body shop with where the painter is shooting XXX and he thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread and has no problems at all.

Because I ALSO recommend PPG and DuPont BECAUSE I know this. I ALSO recommend PPG and DuPont because I am not a boot stepping S-W guy. Even when I repped it I didn't do that. EVEN out in the field. If I couldn't provide the shop with a product that would meet there needs better than the compitition I sure as heck didn't knock the compitition.

If there is one thing I learned as a paint rep is that there are a few, very few constants that cause paint failures. Most are related to soft film and shrinking up. Most are DIRECTLY related to atomization and or solvent use or choice, PERIOD. Now, you could say that XXX brand is more temperamental and a little mistake in solvent choice or gun set up "shouldn't" give you problems because that doesn't happen with YYY brand. This is a very valid argument. But it doesn't change the fact that IF you were to correct the solvent choice or gun set up "EVEN" the XXX brand would not have the problem. So it comes down to user error NOT product.

I saw over and over again where a shop would change brands and get a better end product. However, it was NOT the brand change that made the difference, it was the new training, new equipment, or just plain new desire that made the end product better.

I did that my self. I would walk into a shop and see that they where using XXX all wrong. I would show them the YYY that I was selling, and SHOW THEM HOW TO USE IT, and change them over. They could have done the same thing with the XXX smile.gif

Once I was in a DuPont shop and the head painter wanted to change to PPG. He was a BIG PPG guy and I gave it a go to get him to change from the DuPont to S-W instead. He had a big problem with die back and soft film in the DuPont clear. I took one look at his booth with the poor air flow and piles of water traps to trap AIR volume and I sold him a SHarpe low restrictive hose along with low restrictive couplers. Told him to remove the filters and what ones to buy. He did that RIGHT as the PPG guy went in and changed them over!! Guess what problems solved, he gave PPG the credit even thought DuPont or S-W would had done the same thing.

Once I walked into one of the shops I serviced. It was a restoration shop that did a lot of vintage race cars and classics. He used the S-W products I sold but always complained about the die back. The rep before me, two different tech reps, and I had told him it was his gun choice and set up. It was NOT atomizing the clear properly. Well, as I walk in I see a new SpiesHecker mixing system! He told me that it doesn't die back and that he is happy. I then noticed that Spies had gave him a NEW GUN!!! Gee, you think?

One town would have 99% of the shops swearing by DuPont and a town a few miles away would be 99% PPG. Why? MARKETING, that's why. In each town there would be a paint jobber that did a better job than everyone else. It is that simple.

I had one shop that used Harbor Frieght guns and the lowest priced SS paint I offered. He did show cars with this stuff. Another is a highly recognized name in the west coast custom car scene. He hated DuPont primers and used S-W. He was even given DuPont products for famous car. He shot it in S-W primers after trying the Dupont primer that was given him which he HATED. It was put in a DuPont calender touting the DuPont primers! Now, again these were good quality DuPont products used and loved by painters all over the country.

To ask a painter what is the best paint is like asking a Chevy nut what is the best car. Or ask him what kind of woman he likes. It is ALL subjective.

THAT is why I recommended to go to the stores offering PPG, DuPont, S-W, what ever and see what kind of service you got. See if they were willing to help you, ask others that paint who they would buy from. THAT is where the real difference lies.

Mike, though I mean every word of this, please take it in th light hearted manner in which I post it. graemlins/beers.gif

MartinSR, No offense taken,as I said it is mostly painter preference,as a flat rate painter color match and product durability is very important.I have found the higher end paints have both of these.
I just switched shops and the new place is using Dupont,not a true basecoat just enamel converted to spray like basecoat.It sprays pretty good but coverage is terrible compared to what I'm used to.Painted a rear cover for a dark green caddy and the color was terrible.If a dark green didn't match what problems will I have with tough colors?Dupont has some very good clears that can be sprayed in a garage and look very good.We're using the 4700 clear and I like it.The painter said he has had some chipping problems.
It is very hard to find a paint rep who knows anything,except numbers.I wish you would have been my paint rep!!
dc malibu, paint thinner will tell you if you have a hardened paint on it now, but if your sanding it off it really doesn't matter.If the lacquer thinner takes it off it is either lacquer or un catylized enamel and to prevent any shrinking at all should be removed.You can spray over it but must be very careful about breaking through your primer because it could cause lifting problems.There are a lot of things you can get away with but is it worth the risk of a repaint,or a bad looking paint job?
I'm sure you know this but make sure you keep the DA nice and flat and hand sand areas that are hard to run a DA on.It will leave bullseyes and make more work for you blocking,that's part of the reason I recomend stripping.
MartinSR I went to your bodyshop website and it didn't have the price for a SATA digital RP, there's also some new fancy colored one out that I'd like a price for. Thanks Mike

Mike, I don't have a "bodyshop web site" :confused: I sell nothing, not until my book is done that is. graemlins/boring.gif When that is done, who knows.

You are right about the soft underlying paint. But I have to go back to my original post. Don has to be ready for at the very least THREE times the work (read that TIME) and also a maybe TWICE the cost to strip to bare metal. I can also guarantee, yes guarantee cold hard lock, that there is damage and previous repairs under that paint. SO, count on more TIME in body repairs too.

If you were to sand it down to that DP primer and then apply a few coats of urethane primer it will pretty much be "buried". The solvents from the next applications of products will be held at that urethane primer.

I say this "most likely" will be a "good" way to do it. Not the best, that would be striping and metal finishing the body then etch coating and using a HS urethane primer blocking to perfection then an acrylic urethane base and clear. However, this is not for every car and every person. I say it often around here, we ALL can't do this kind of work. Be it tool, skill, time, space limitations. Sometimes we need to "stop somewhere" in the perfection. I only lay this out on the table because I want everyone asking or reading that there are other ways. I would hate to see a newbe scared away or worse finding him self over his head in the project. graemlins/waving.gif