I had a ball joint fail and some suspension damage. Instead of rebuilding the ugly lower a-arms again and having to deal with the lower BJoints pressed in, etc. I was thinking of buying the Global West Lower A-Arms, they come with poly. End links and ball joints installed. I may have to call them but can I use there lowers with STOCK uppers? Id love all new but Its all I can afford.

http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20A-BODIES.htm#Front%20performance%20control%20arm%20b ushings%20and%20shafts:

Using your stock uppers would be fine, since their lowers retain entirely stock geometry.

GW is too expensive for me.

I went with the AFCO lowers for $300/pr which are very strong pieces, but have solid rod ends instead of bushings, which you may or may not like. I also did the tall ball-joints and adjustable uppers from www.scandc.com (http://www.scandc.com) (stage II package) for some major geometry improvements within a pretty reasonable budget. :cool:

AFCO? Not familiar with these right off. Even with my discount at work the Global West are right around $550/ pair after tax. Oposed to $599 direct plus freight and sales tax. $300 sounds MUCH better, I just found there website, they look pretty nice, I think they are unassembled.

Afco is large in circle track and are very well know in that circle. (pardon the pun).

http://www.afcoracing.com/

Anyone else offer fully assembled lower arms? Cheaper than Global West? I really like what they offer, price isnt TOO bad, I think im going to order these tomorrow. I just called them these definately work with stock upper arms, and also stock spindles/ coil spring which is perfect. I want the uppers but not anytime soon $$$$. Anyone use these by any chance?

"Tubular lower arms fully assembled with polyurethane bushings / ball joints / Rotating Spring cushion / poly snubbers/ and special sway bar connecting end links. Control arms are ready to bolt on the car when received. Part # CTA-42LP fits 1964-72 new price $599.00"

I think what you will find is that you can get some very inexpensive arms from the circle/dirt track folks but they will have solid bushings and transmit a lot more NVH.

The Global West/Hotchkis arms can be had with rubber or poly bushings for less NVH in street applications but cost way more than they are worth.

Personally I would not bother. You are not going to make any noticeable gain with different lowers, so save your $$$ for the uppers where you really can make a difference. My wish list includes the SC&C stage II setup: upper and lower tall ball joints with an adjustable UCA. I just have not gotten through the price knot hole on the package yet. But if you are ready to drop $500 on lowers, then you are already most of the way there to the SC&C package. Go for it and make me jealous :)

I really like the fact that they are assembled, I love putting them on but I dont have a ball joint press and dont want to pay for machine work. I just think this is a good option for me right now and my work carries them so I can get em' fast and a hair cheaper... also someone will buy my old arms they look really good... but still... 500 bucks... err... Circle track arms work really well though? Do any come assembled?

I'm not sure about any others being assembled. The AFCO arms do not come with ball-joints.

GW makes a good product, but for that money IMHO there are better places to spend it which will improve the geometry and make the car handle better. With those, you won't gain anything except they will look cool.

::sigh::
I know, I figured buying good components for my exsisting arms would be a good choice and buy. Maybe I should spend the money elsewhere? Basically I just need new ball joints that wont take a crap on me. Im not sure what to do, but I want SAFE suspension and nice handling and control. My old lower arms are in good shape I bought them used to replace my stock ones that cracked on me while driving! About 2 years ago this happened... so who knows, should I keep the ones I have no and upgrade them? Buy new GW's? Energy Suspension dont make ball joints do they?

Look up Fatman Fabrications. They can sell you just the lower arms for about $425 (what I paid about 1 1/2 years ago). I had some issues with the ball joint holes being the wrong diameter (I ordered mine unassembled and w/o ball joints). But for your application, they should be good to go. I have some pictures up on my website (sorry if they're a little small). Drop me a PM or email if you want the bigger pictures.

Ryan

So the uppers are where it would be noticeably? Just when something like this goes wrong it freaks me out and I feel like I should go ALL NEW.

If you've got the money... http://www.scandc.com/suspensions.htm#streetcomp2

I changed the upper ball joints last year. I think they were changed before that also, they didnt have rivets in em' as for the springs they are less than 2 years old, I bought 2" drop coils from www.coilspringspecialites.com and I like them quite a bit! Other than my Control arm concerns, and ball joint concerns I need new brake pads, and new front shocks, and I should be ready to roll again. Its an almost everyday driver with close to no track, fun street... normal driving, maybe the track next summer, but thats not what I built it for.... So I dont really need anything too fancy.

After strong concideration I think Ive decided to stay with my stock arms. My old ones busted on my while driving a couple years ago, not sure if my car was in a wreck back in the days, but the arms I have on now look good I bought them from a Chevy Dismantler. The only reason I want the NEW lowers is for assurance purposes. I dont want to be thinking what if... especially after what happened the other day, maybe I couldve gotten a little hairline crack in my driver side arm? Eh, I just dont know what route I should go.

You could have your current arms checked out at a machine shop, too. That way you'll have the assurance you're looking for. I went tubular because I plan on driving mine hard and I already had the whole car apart anyways.

Ryan

Ahhh im kicking myself back and fourth here. Including new components and machine shop pressing/ checking out my old arms which may not even check out (a gamble on spending extra bucks I dont have) doesnt seem worth it. Global West is still looking mighty fine right now, all assembled, brand new, it would feel nice, I would also be adding the uppers sometime early next year. Seems like the only guys saying its only for show are the ones that dont have them ;) no offence... but really though, for the situation im in, and to get full assembled arms sent to my door for $498 even doesnt seem bad at all... someone please tell me "BUY THEM" im so stressed out!

Ok, last post I promise... well atleast until someone pops in :)
Check these out... "in development"

http://www.hotchkis.net/cgi-bin/EDCstore.pl?user_action=detail&catalogno=1104

You might note that those in the know run original lower arms for a lot longer in the evolution process than original upper arms.

You might also note that folks (like SC&C) that put more into functionality than marketing do not even offer a lower arm product.

I would not expect it to cost all that much to press out old ball joints and press in new ones. Some places might even do it for nothing if you buy the ball joint parts from them. You should be able to check out your old arms yourself unless you hit something when the ball joint failed.

How much longer though? My last ones blew A$$ on me. Well, new poly. bushings from Energy Suspension are $71.99 and some Moog Ball Joints are around $25 a pop through Summit, plus any machine shop work, checking out my old arms, and rental tools for pressing or shop to press em' just seems like if I sell these old arms and buy the new ones, I have brand new arms for roughly a couple hundred... no stress, etc.

How much longer though? My last ones blew A$$ on me. Well, new poly. bushings from Energy Suspension are $71.99 and some Moog Ball Joints are around $25 a pop through Summit, plus any machine shop work, checking out my old arms, and rental tools for pressing or shop to press em' just seems like if I sell these old arms and buy the new ones, I have brand new arms for roughly a couple hundred... no stress, etc. Oh yeah... and the price of end links, plus a new spring cushion/ insulator. Err... I say new...

I just installed the GW tubular upper and lower arms...all I can say is what an awesome product. Certainly not cheap, but certainly not cheaply made. I noticed a huge difference using their arms and the springs they recommended in the ride quality and responsiveness. Huge Wilwood brakes help too ;)

I know! Wilwood brakes or a Baer system? Those are on my list too... Sounds like it handles pretty well, im gettin there :)

The GW lower arms are built like tanks. They do nothing for geometry improvements however and they won't buy you any performance over the stock arms-- in fact, technically you're hurting it a bit because of the added weight of the GW arms.

GW arm benefits:
1. They look cool.
2. They're definately beefy.
3. If you buy the right ones you get their VERY nice Del-a-lum bushings.
4. The heim joint sway bar mount is neat-o.
5. And the bad-- since they're so beefy you add more unsprung weight to your front suspension.

I do have a set of GW's on the front of my car. I have one of the first sets of their 68-72 A-body lower arms off the jigs (waited almost 10 months from when I pre-ordered them). Are they nice? You bet. Were they necessary? Nope. From a technical and monetary standpoint I would have been better off adding gusseting around the balljoint area and adding del-a-lum bushings to my stock arms and using the money I saved elsewhere. But they sure do look pretty under there. :p

Also, you will get better front end geometry and handling out of Marcus's (SC&C) kit with the Howe tall ball joints than you will with the GW upper arms and B-body setup. That's a FACT. If you still want the GW lower arms, you can combine them with Marcus's kit and have better geometry and a pretty looking lower arm. :D

Troy

The GW control arms are beefy, I have the uppers and lowers on my '65. They were not perfect, and I had expected better from a company with their years of experience.

The most disappointing aspect of mine was that the coil spring pocket height was not positioned equally on both sides. Without a jig I'll never know which side to fault, but there was ~ 1/4" difference side to side height. That 1/4" might seem a minor detail if you didn't know that a 1/4" difference at the coil will translate into 1/2" ride height difference - its a 2:1 ratio from coil to ride height. Naturally the install was happening at a time when I could not have it apart for several weeks while waiting for another control arm - besides which I did not know which side was off. So I chucked up a piece of 1/4" plate aluminum and made a shim that rests below the GW supplied polyurethane spring cushion on just one control arm. Wa-la, ride height was equalized.

The next disappointing aspect was that the GW uppers came in too close to the upper spring pocket at the a-arm crossbrace. Actually, let me restate that to reflect this is an issue only for a drag guy not running the upper snubbers - to allow for full downward suspension travel upon launching at the dragstrip. A little die grinder work fixed that. I also had a minor issue with one bolt hole alignment that was off center, this was on the passenger side lower arm rear pivot bolt.

The GW stuff is beefy. I had thought of getting some flyweight drag stuff - but then I came back to reality that I would be driving this car on the street. I have seen stock Chevelle lower control arms cracked at the ball joint, and I am confident that will never happen to the GW arms. I am also confident that as I get the hook up improved and add even more power to the engine that those beefy GW lower arms will better withstand wheels up action. The extra beef comes in at 5 lbs more for each GW lower control arm, and virtually the same weight as factory parts on the upper arms.

Thomas

The GW control arms are beefy, I have the uppers and lowers on my '65. They were not perfect, and I had expected better from a company with their years of experience.

The most disappointing aspect of mine was that the coil spring pocket height was not positioned equally on both sides. Without a jig I'll never know which side to fault, but there was ~ 1/4" difference side to side height. That 1/4" might seem a minor detail if you didn't know that a 1/4" difference at the coil will translate into 1/2" ride height difference - its a 2:1 ratio from coil to ride height. Naturally the install was happening at a time when I could not have it apart for several weeks while waiting for another control arm - besides which I did not know which side was off. So I chucked up a piece of 1/4" plate aluminum and made a shim that rests below the GW supplied polyurethane spring cushion on just one control arm. Wa-la, ride height was equalized.

Thomas

LOL, same here, and same exact amount! After the initial install the driver's side of my car sat 1/2" lower than the passenger side. I first re-seated the springs thinking I "missed" the upper pocket, that didn't solve it so I swapped the springs side to side (also didn't solve it) so I finally CNC machined a spacer out of 1/4" aluminum to compensate which sits under their polyurethane spring pocket.

This may be an issue only with the early production arms-- earlier this year I installed all GW stuff on a friend's 66 and it sits nice and even.

Troy

Also, you will get better front end geometry and handling out of Marcus's (SC&C) kit with the Howe tall ball joints than you will with the GW upper arms and B-body setup. That's a FACT. If you still want the GW lower arms, you can combine them with Marcus's kit and have better geometry and a pretty looking lower arm. :D

Link to proof to stated fact?

Link to proof to stated fact?
The b-body spindle is known to have many negatives. One the biggies is bumpsteer because the mounting location of the tierods. With a tall ball joint w/ the SC&C arms you get the benefits of the "tall spindle swap" w/ none of the bumpsteer issues.
Im sure Gokou or Dennis will chime in here w/ a bit more on the technical reasons and might even throw in a few computer printouts showing the difference between the two.

**EDIT** here is some tech info directly from SC&C's website as to why the B-body spindle is soo great.
The B swap offers better than stock brakes and improves the camber curves and roll center height due to their taller overall height. That’s the good news, now for the bad news…the B spindles were designed for a totally different car. So while they can be bolted on, not everything lines up correctly. The steering arms are longer which slows the steering ratio and upsets the ackerman angle or the difference in the angles of the tires when you turn. Worse, it doubles the amount of bumpsteer, which isn’t too good to begin with! This can make the car feel very unnerving to drive, especially at speed. The B setup is also quite heavy and increases the track width of the car, which may lead to tire clearance problems with fenders.

The GW lower arms are built like tanks. They do nothing for geometry improvements however and they won't buy you any performance over the stock arms-- in fact, technically you're hurting it a bit because of the added weight of the GW arms.

GW arm benefits:
1. They look cool.
2. They're definately beefy.
3. If you buy the right ones you get their VERY nice Del-a-lum bushings.
4. The heim joint sway bar mount is neat-o.
5. And the bad-- since they're so beefy you add more unsprung weight to your front suspension.

Also, you will get better front end geometry and handling out of Marcus's (SC&C) kit with the Howe tall ball joints than you will with the GW upper arms and B-body setup. That's a FACT. If you still want the GW lower arms, you can combine them with Marcus's kit and have better geometry and a pretty looking lower arm. :D

Troy

This is exactly my setup right now and while the 'velle hasnt seen pavement yet.. my extensive reasearch on these and other forums, as well as some talk w Marcus @ SC&C has lead me to beleive that this is the best way to go (in terms of handling) short of going w/ custom fab stuff.

The GW arms are super beefy and the Del-A-Lum bushings are suppoded to be top notch. The fitment was great and the QA-1 coilovers will give me plenty of ride height adjustability as well compression/rebound adjustment on the shocks. The SC&C package is nice too.. Again, fitment was great, instructions were good as well, plus Marcus is very knowledgable.. Here is a pic of my front setup
http://www.extreme-explorer.com/files/Chevelle/FrontSusp.JPG

This is exactly my setup right now and while the 'velle hasnt seen pavement yet.. my extensive reasearch on these and other forums, as well as some talk w Marcus @ SC&C has lead me to beleive that this is the best way to go (in terms of handling) short of going w/ custom fab stuff.

The GW arms are super beefy and the Del-A-Lum bushings are suppoded to be top notch. The fitment was great and the QA-1 coilovers will give me plenty of ride height adjustability as well compression/rebound adjustment on the shocks. The SC&C package is nice too.. Again, fitment was great, instructions were good as well, plus Marcus is very knowledgable.. Here is a pic of my front setup
http://www.extreme-explorer.com/files/Chevelle/FrontSusp.JPG
I had never seen those uppers before...interesting. Looks nice too.

I had never seen those uppers before...interesting. Looks nice too.
Those are the Pole Position upper arms. They come with the SC&C Stage 1 handling kit.. Also available from Pole Position in many different configurations.

Link to proof to stated fact?

Let's see:

1. Marcus's setup still uses the stock spindles and steering arms. This means you don't experience the bumpsteer issues that are prevalent with the B-body setup. Also, since the stock steering arm is used, the steering ratio isn't slowed as it is with the B-body spindle. The B-spindles require more steering box movement than the stock spindles to produce the same turn angle at the wheels, because the steering arms of the B-spindles are longer than stock. The longer arms of the B-spindles also upset the ackerman angles. Advantage: SC&C.

2. Marcus's setup provides a much better FRCH (Front roll center height); the roll center height with the B-spindles, while better than stock, is still too low (around -3.5 to -4 inches below the ground.) Marcus's kit brings the FRCH up to about +2.5". This equates to much less "lean" going around a hard turn. Advantage: SC&C.

So with the tall ball joints, you get the main benefit of the B-spindle (taller spindle + shorter UCA = more negative camber gain on compression = better grip) without any of the drawbacks (no bumpsteer problems, no steering ratio changes.) This, combined with an alignment with much more caster than stock (on the order of 4.5-5.5 degrees) provides a MUCH better handling car.

Keep in mind: I am not paid by Marcus. Heck, I'm not even running his product-- I'm running the B-body setup myself. I will be changing it sometime over the next year. I'm chiming in this thread to help people spend money wisely-- i.e. why do the B-body spindle swap when you can do something better for the same amount of money and effort? The only reason people are hesitant is because the B-body swap has been around for YEARS. Both the advantages and disadvantages are well known. Using the Howe tall BJ's from Marcus with stock spindles is a much better choice than the B-body swap-- you get all the advantages and then some with none of the disadvantages.

My B-body spindles will be coming off sometime soon to be replaced with something better. How far I take it is yet to be determined. I may use off the shelf parts (in which case Marcus's G5 setup using modified 'Vette C5 spindles is pretty sweet), ATS says they have a bunch of "cool" A-body parts on the horizon but they haven't given details yet. I may go all out and fab my own +3" longer LCAs, use matching Pole Position uppers and relocated UCA mounts, and have custom spindles made with a much lower pin height to enable a low ride height while still maintaining a favorable LCA angle and FVSA.

The only undecideds in this whole matter is if I trust my own fab skills enough to drive on my own homebuilt lower control arms, and also what new products have been promised over the next 6 months or so from a few other vendors in terms of pricing and features. I can't make an educated decision quite yet, but my B-body spindles (and matching Baer's) will end up on Ebay sooner or later.

Troy

Those are the Pole Position upper arms. They come with the SC&C Stage 1 handling kit.. Also available from Pole Position in many different configurations.
Not to be nitpicky, but for anyone searching for said product, the name of the company has changed from "Pole Positions" to "SPC". I just got mine a couple weeks ago. AWESOME product :thumbsup:

1. Marcus's setup still uses the stock spindles and steering arms. This means you don't experience the bumpsteer issues that are prevalent with the B-body setup.
Great explaination, but I would like to add that with their Stage II package (tall B-Js on upper and lower) bumpsteer is actually decreased, so it's better than stock

I'm not paid by SC&C either, but I do like their product, and I have it all spread out across the floor of my garage awaiting assembly :)

Prices please. How much does all this stuff cost? How much does a set up like in the picture cost?

Prices please. How much does all this stuff cost? How much does a set up like in the picture cost?

Just the suspension? Here is a breakdown:

Upper-Arms: SC&C Stage 1 kit w/ tall balljoint -------------------- $429.90
Lower-Arms: GlobalWest Tubular Arms w/ Del-a-lum bushings ------ $675.00
Shocks/Springs: QA-1 Coilovers ---------------------------------- $459.00
Swaybar: Addco 1 1/8" w/ poly bushings ------------------------- $151.00
================================================== =========
Total Price: ----------------------------------------------------- $1714.90

You factor in the brakes and spindles, new tierods and centerlink, new steering box and it goes up in cost a considerable amount from there.

We're talking 1714.90 for a front suspension set up?

PHIL! WAKE UP MAN!!!
You've got a daily driver and you're worrying about 599 versus 550?!
This daily driver doesn't need $1700 worth of front end...
Sure, it looks cool, but you're going to end up WAY OVER YOUR HEAD.

Get the stock arms, take them to the machine shop and spend $20 to have them press out the old ones and press in the new $50 joints.

You'll be about $1500 ahead of the game and on your daily driver, you aren't going to see enough of a difference to spend another $1500.

GEEEEZ!

My setup:

SC&C Stage II Package (w/ solid bushings - SPC arms and 4 tall B-Js) $589.00
AFCO lower A-arms $300
AFCO 5"x9.5" 700# springs $100
Speedway spring height adjusters $56
Stock Sway bar - $0 (with 700# springs, a 15/16 sway bar is more than adequate)

I'm at $1045 (+shipping for everything) but I still need to buy shocks. I'll use what I have (NAPA replacements) until I can afford to upgrade to QA1 adjustables :)

:^O Ok! Curt... I agree... ! I agree! I am very much going nuts making choices. Either way I definately need SOME type of new arms, the lowers can stay stock but the ones Ive got have too much age, and I just noticed the shock mount hole has a crack through it... and im not about to weld on them. Maybe I should just get some stock arms then. But I look at it like this:

New arms $100-179 each plus S&H/ Taxes
(Depending if I go GM, Quality, or the $99 cheapies on ebay)
New Poly. Bushings $80-ish ? I cant remember the price
New Poly. End Links
New Moog Ball Joints $30 each
And if a shop presses them $20-50

It's like an extra hundred bucks to go Energy fully assembled with quality goodies. GW out the door is right around 500, it might even be less. Stupid things are on back order.

Fine, you're in to the basic arm pieces for 300 or so with bushings done at the shop. You CAN get them locally, and you can also get them at the chevy wrecking yard at the bottom of Sunrise Blvd too.

What about the shocks and the springs you're gonna need since you now have the amp'd up arms? If you don't, it kinda doesn't make the adjustable arms worthwhile, does it?

Coil overs are gonna run another $4-500 by the time you're done...

Awful lot of money for a driver, my friend!

Awful lot of money for a driver, my friend!
It's very easy to get carried away. I figured a budget of about $1000 total for front and rear suspension when I started this project, which was to be a mild upgrade over stock. Now I've gotten myself into it... $1100 and counting (still need to spend another $400+) just for the front, and I figure I'll have $800-900 in the rear suspension also. :clonk:

Then it's time for brakes... 13" corvette ones to replace the perfectly good stock 11" ones that are on it, and of course I'll need 17s to clear them.

My car will still be slow because now I can't afford to do anything to the engine, trans, or rear end, but I'll be able to take a corner :D

Ive just had a total of 4 lower STOCK arms go bad on me, this is daily driving, no abuse. Railroad tracks and pulling out from a parking lot blew out my originals, and these I got from a Chevy yard here in Sac area. There is a crack on the shock mount and I dont trust these either... If I can find some NEW stock arms locally ... (EDIT) Ok... Chevyland Parts has them for 129.95, a hair cheaper than I thought... but thats almost 300 right there.

$279.39 Stock Arms
$69 Moog Ball Joints
$47.30 Poly. Bushings
$16 Poly. End Links
(not going near rubber)

$411.69
$90.00 Shop to press (15 per bushing & BJoint)
Plus a shop to press the bushings & Low Ball Joints in.
(Dont trust myself to do it/ Dont want to rent the tool)

... total $501.69
So I would either have to get cheaper Bjoints, or find a cheaper shop.


We're talkin 50 bucks or less for assembled (if even that)... is it really worth it?
Plus im carless... id have to make it out off sunrise to pick up the arms, order the ball joints or pay more at kragen, take it all to the machine shop, wait a couple days, then bring it all home and install it... sooo not worth it to me! Id really love to go stock arms and save a few bucks, but if it were a little more money id do it in a heart beat...


As for shocks I have a brand new set of KYB's im going to use. I have KYB in the back and I had some cheapie charlie monroe's in the front which are now trash...