I thought I would post as I believe the one thing that doesnt get mentioned as often or as in good detail is YOUR health and how to protect it.

Today I went into work after coming home from CB03, and found out that your painter was hospitalized the day after I left. He was rushed to the hopital later that night, as he woke up and could not breath. The cause was ISO or isocyanate posioning caused by spraying just 2 coats of clear on a bumper.

When tested they found that only 23 or 27% of his lungs were working the rest had shut down :eek: Any lower and the possibility of a colasped lung would have occured, and possibility PERMENT lung damage.

Now he has perment ISO sensity, which means that exposed to the right amount of ISO he could go into relapse suffering even more damage.

Am sure some of you are thinking "Man that will never happen to me am just painting one car and thats it. Those painter have hight tech booths and high buck masks." Well all it takes is the right person with the right amount of exposure. Hell it only took Firestone a few rollovers before they figured out the tires were junk, or Macdonalds one old lady to spill coffee on her to lap to find out it was to hot. It does happen!!!

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the stuff people buy to use to work on their cars is darn right dangerous if not taking with respect. Five years ago I got Zinc oxide posioning from welding, am not the same since. My lungs are shot, I constantly cough up crap, and just the slightest smell of welding fumes can bring me to my knees if am not wearing my mask. Thats getting off easy, I did some research and found out that I could have had more severe problems which would have left me breathing thro a O2 tank for the rest of my life or could have DIED :D

The problem is that we dont learn til afterwards til the damage is done. Am not married nor have kids, well none that I know of :D , anyway I love baseball(GO CUBIES) and it scares the crap out of me to think one day I might have to look my son in eye and say "Sorry I cant play catch with you cause its to hard for daddy to get his O2 tank out the door" :( If you dont want to protect your own health atleast do it for your family.

Everytime you paint, weld or sand filler you need to protect yourself. Buy those masks that you see at the paint store. Not the cheap ones but the good 3M masks for painting. When welding buy and use a mask approved for welding. You know my mask I wear for JUST spraying primer cost me 160 bucks. Sure that might sound like alot of money, but its a hell of alot better then spending 2 days in the hospital getting your lungs pumped and suffering for it the rest of your LIFE .

If you are type of guy or lady that thinks they are a bad arse and need no protection, well hate to tell ya but you do. I had a real good friend that thought he was the baddest FOMO to ever sit on bike, well that attitude killed him. Just like the attitude can of I dont need protection from painting, welding or sanding...REMEMBER that.

I strongly agrue you to step back and think the next time before you pick up that paint gun or whatever and find out how I can protect myself better. If you dont know what to use or how to use it, all you got to do is ask.
I tell ya I dont want anyone to go thro what I did or some of stuff my fellow coworkers went thro. Please learn from our mistakes

I guess if you dont thats fine cause its only YOUR health and not MINE.
Think safe be safe...Eric

Great post Eric ! I would like to add one thing that a lot of us do not think about ....NOISE !! I went into the Navy when I was 20 and was forced to wear hearing protection in noisy environments. I have always done it since then. Most of you guys are still young and dont really appreciate your hearing, but one day you will wish you wore the ear muffs all the time. I am amazed at how many guys my age (52) cannot even hear the brake wear indicators on thier cars ! I preach it constantly to the guys that work for me. Blowing off parts with compressed air is one of the worse culprits.
Try this test...wear your hearing protectors while cutting the lawn a couple of times....then try it without them...you will be amazed at how loud that old grass whacker really is. Protect your ears and eyes and the rest of you...you will appreciate it later in life.

I need to chime in here, because this is excellent advice for EVERYONE. Chemicals are not to be taken lightly, even the ones you've used "for years".

We spend several million dollars on safety every year at Dow, and have full time safety people. I'm a member of one of the teams for our labs, so I particpate in investigations for accidents and find out what could have been done to prevent it. Unfortunately, you can only go so far....People have to be responsible for themselves, as well, because ultimately it's your life.

Sensitization can happen at any point in time. One of the chemists had worked with epoxy for 14 years. One day he got some resin on his skin, because he was in a hurry (not uncommon around here), and didn't bother to use nitrile rubber gloves. He was sensitized almost immediately. The quantity was less than a gram. He had to quit working in the lab outright. He loved being a chemist, and now works a job which he does not enjoy nearly as well.

The point is it doesn't take much to sensitize you, and it can be from something you've been using for "years" (paints, glues, solvents, car fluids, cleaning fluids, etc). Know what you're working with; get the MSDS (material safety data sheet) for everything you use, and READ IT!

Be careful!

Marc (Senior Research Chemical Engineer)

Ditto to Sevt_ and BillK. Why do people have to be HEROES??? EVERY time you work on ANYTHING, SOMETHING IS AT RISK!!!! THINK before you do ANYTHING.

My Partner and I have 25 Employees. Being SAFE is a <REQUIREMENT> <NOT OPTIONAL>

Thanks for the Post Eric.

Karl

Great post Eric. Recommend you send it to the Bench Racing forum so it will get greater exposure. Should be required reading for all TCers graemlins/thumbsup.gif

COL, done.
I hate to say it but am kinda happy something like this happened, wish it would have gone down a different way. But my point is it final opened his and owner's(his father) eyes.

Either one of them have any respect for this paint that we use today. Ever since my first day there about 3 years, Ive harped on him about how he cares or lack of his mask. Once he's done spraying he just throws it on the table next to the booth. He doesnt seal it back up afterwards and he changes the filters til they are almost black. I try telling him that those filters are only good for what 8hrs of exposure :eek: By the next morning those filters are shot, 8hrs means exposed in any type of air not just painting.

My primer mask is a full face mask, its the only thing to have if you cant afford a fresh air unit. It covers your full face and has a double seal around your nose and mouth unlike the very common half mask. It set me back 160 bucks and you should have heard his guy laugh at me :rolleyes:

I started wearing a mask when doing any type of sanding, filler or feathering out paint etc, have been since my deal with the zinc. Because of that mask Ive now been sensitized to dust particles. If I forget the mask and starting sanding i can feel it right now in my lungs. Just like what BillK mentioned with the ear plugs...Eric

Hey, I just bought me a new SOS brand full face fresh air respirator today.... Yawhooo.. I used it today and absolutely love it. Money well spent. Good post guys. :D

Great post ;) always a good reminder!!The ear plugs is one that I forget while around my shop.I wear them when shooting,mowing and mostly when I'm grinding but should wear them more often when doing the "little jobs" graemlins/clonk.gif

graemlins/waving.gif
Rick

I've heard that you can extend the paint mask filters life by keeping your mask in a sealed up baggy when not in use. Is this true?
Roger

Originally posted by 67shovel:
I've heard that you can extend the paint mask filters life by keeping your mask in a sealed up baggy when not in use. Is this true?
Roger I'm not a pro like some of the other guys above, but I store my cartridges in a baggy. It seems to work, as I get about twice the "hours" that are supposed to be contained in a cartridge. When they let odors through or have a lot of "resistance", time to replace them. The cartridges really only work when exposed to air/contaminants, so in the baggy, they are sealed and not "decontaminating?" anything. Mind you, I was only using doing this for a SW etch primer, and rattle can paint (yes, I DO wear a half mask for rattlecan paint too- only have one set of lungs!)

However, if I was to spray something "more toxic (its ALL toxic to your body)" I'd just use them for an hour or so LESS than the "recommended" time, and get new ones until I was done. Actually for an ISO paint, Id rent a paint booth w/a fresh air system. Otherwise a good set of lungs and a perpetual state of primer is just fine with me! :D

GReat Advice in this post! I remember reading somewhere that after WW2, thousands of Germans that were painting items for the war effort started coming down with "mystery illnesses", and dying prematurely. THey all had one thing in common- they worked in factories, and were all exposed to ISO containing paints on regular basis.....

Too bad about the guys son though. Even though he seems extraordinarily ignorant, I hate to see somebody get hurt... :(

Shovel, the 3M rep came today to show some air units. Anyway you must seal up the filters to get the full 8hr exposure, if you dont the filters still draw contaniments out from the surrounding air. The thing YOU MUST do is break up both the pre filter and cart filter and seal them up in seperate bags. If you just seal them up as a unit the cart filter still draws from the pre filter, making it use-less by the next morning. So sealing them up in baggy as one unit really does no more good then just leaving the whole thing unsealed. The pre filter and cart filter MUST be seprated...Eric

sevt_chevelle,

Not trying to pry, but are you back to normal? You say that the smell of welding brings you to your knees, but is that from a hypersensitivity to the smell from your poisoning, or do you mean your lungs start bothering you? Did you have to go to the hospital when you had trouble? I've never heard of anything like zinc oxide poisoning-But Im not a body shop pro either. I guess its smart to use a fume type mask when welding also, right? Just trying to learn a little about this, not prying.

Again- this is a great topic and I think it should be a "sticky" one so everybody that posts here in this section realizes the risks involved in this sort of work.

Good post Eric...

I sprayed some epoxy primer on some parts about 8 years ago... I have had a persistant, chronic cough ever since... Its not a bad hacking, and I don't notice it much anymore, but others will ask me, "you still have that cough?"

Naturally, I didn't where a good respirator for the job...

Of course, the doctors can find no problem, except that I have asthma... I keep waiting to cough up some of that paint...

Always use common sense... Even if you have great safety equipment, there are still times and areas where you just shouldn't work...


Zinc Oxide poisoning... I have heard of major toxic fumes from welding galvanized metal, isn't that zinc?

Buzzbomb,
still after five YEARS since my zinc posioning am not back to normal nor never will!! The amount of fumes I breathed in was just enough to cause light perment damage. I cant breathe like I did before, GOD help me if I ever have the need to run more then 2 blocks as Ill collaspe because I cant breathe graemlins/thumbsup.gif . I also constantly cough crap up, really gets bad during the summer as the humidty raises. From what the Doc told me the zinc attacks the air pockets that make up your lungs, a side affect of this attack is that this mucus that is suppoesd to cover the air pockets gets produced in extra amounts. I can feel my lungs get kinda heavy and thats when I cough that crap up. Once you get zinc oxide yes you do get that hypersensitive sense of smell to that certain smell. You get the same thing when overexposed to ISO's, you can just smell the stuff.

I spent 2 days in the hospital hooked up to a pump that filtered the incoming air, had several X-rays and all sorts of needles suck in my arms feeding me medicine graemlins/angry.gif

When I say the zinc fumes can bring me to my knees, its not like JUST the smell. I can TELL when that welder has been in use even if its across the shop, i can just smell it. But it doenst affect me. When it has put me to me knees its when I walk by someone welding or the fumes carry over to me, and not wearing my welding mask and breathe in the fumes, I get the feeling of, you just know you had too much to drink or you start to realize you got a beer buzz.

One time I dropped down, i was Bsing with the painter while the other bodyguy was welding something and we walked by took maybe 5 steps thro the haze and dropped like a 50lb bag of potataos.

If I wear my mask welding it dont effect me, but I also have a small fan setup sucking out the fumes too.

The one thing I guess I should mention is that if you have any type of facial hair and plan on spraying you NEED to remove it so the mask can properly seal. After I heard about the painter the first thing I did when i got home was shave. I almsot cried and felt naked without my goatee but I knew my lungs were already shoot I dont need anymore damage done, as I was informed that I would start painting more then what I do now graemlins/hurray.gif :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

1966_L78, yes welding galvanized metal is zinc oxide...Eric

Man, that really sucks...I bet its one of those things that everybody does in their life that they wish they could have back and do over. I am glad that you didnt suffer the after effects as bad as you could have, though. Its also cool of you to share these things with hobbyists (like me), because you can only do so much "non hands on" research about these things. Actually, thanks to TC, when I started teh process of bodywork and priming, I was prompted to download and look at the MSDS for the products I was using, which luckily have some good info on how to protect yourself. It was a wake up call, and I went out and bought a nice quality half mask for that part of my project. Any priming with ISO stuff tho, I will rent a paint booth set up with fresh air. It just isnt worth it.

Like I said, I even use my mask for rattlecans. Some may think that its goofy or whatever, but they're my lungs not theirs, so they can p**s off and take a walk! graemlins/waving.gif

Originally posted by sevt_chevelle:
Shovel, the 3M rep came today to show some air units. Anyway you must seal up the filters to get the full 8hr exposure, if you dont the filters still draw contaniments out from the surrounding air. The thing YOU MUST do is break up both the pre filter and cart filter and seal them up in seperate bags. If you just seal them up as a unit the cart filter still draws from the pre filter, making it use-less by the next morning. So sealing them up in baggy as one unit really does no more good then just leaving the whole thing unsealed. The pre filter and cart filter MUST be seprated...Eric Eric, I am very glad you started this thread. You post above is particularly important to the guy is not going to go out and get a fresh air system.

GUY'S, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT STUFF. IT IS FREE, THERE IS NO EXTRA COST, JUST A FEW SIMPLE RULES TO FOLLOW CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE.

The pre filter is what stops the ISOS. Yes, a charcoal type resporator will stop ISOS. (That is a whole different thread) But it needs to be PERFECTLY fit and maintained to do so. NO FACIAL HAIR THAT WOULD BE TOUCHED BY THE SEAL

And after use, REMOVE THE FILTERS, SEPERATE THE PREFILTERS and put them in SEPERATE bags. These should be high quality "zip lock" bags. EVERYTHING Eric has said is RIGHT ON THE MONEY, Heed the warning.

Good post, lots of good info here. I was going to add one thing, but the last info by martinsr has me wondering about it now...I was told by my paint supplier, and have also read on every filter mask (with charcoal) that they are not for isocyanite painting...Now I have two different findings, and they cant both be right..Im a tub and tile refinisher, and I spray ISO products, as well as epoxy, all the time, but I also use a fresh air system, not a filter type mask. Brian, you're right, the occasional sprayer isnt going to spend the big bucks on a system to paint his car once or twice, but if the cartridge masks arent protecting completely, then that's false security. Now Im curious, Im going to check further on this. :D Great thread really, we cant be too safe with our lungs, or other body parts for that matter! John

John,
From what Ive read and heard from reps is that the masks do stop ISO's, but they cant Quote on quote label them ISO safe. The reasons are pretty simple Human error. One guy has or had a goatee like mine thats darn near 6in long and the other is clean shaven, that mask cant nor wont seal around a hairy chin. Also if you look on the package it doesnt say anything about fit testing a mask so you KNOW it fits right. I dont recall seeing anywhere in the directions when I bought my full face mask. The body shop pro knows this but does the home painter??

Pretty hard to claim a product is safe when one guy to next is different. It would like handing a golf club to 20 people and telling each one with THAT club you can shoot in the high 30's. Well it dont work that way, some might shoot in the 30's now, me am lucky to break 70 graemlins/sad.gif

It all boils down to protecting your own arse. If 3M claimed those masks are an ISO safe mask, it wouldnt take but the first guy to wind up in a hospital to sue 3M or whoever and become an instant millionaire.

If am wrong on the above statment someone please correct me

What the maker "wants" to put and what they MUST put on the label are two different things. NIOSH and OSHA have both came to the conclusion that charcoal resporators can not be sold as protection against ISO's. The fact is, they are very difficult to keep in top form along with the air exchange, human error, and so on. They WILL NOT protect from ISO's when used improperly. The room for error is tiny, that is the problem. Being ISO's are odorless and VERY harmful. NOISH and OSHA have determined that being the room for error is so small and they KNEW from years of exposer to how they were misused, most people are not protected when using them.
The fresh air system, especially the pressurized system (where you have air filling your hood and it nothing can come in) is basically fool proof, you can even have a beard.

The funny thing is, as far as I know OSHA does allow them with limit to the amount of ISO's present. So in high quality down draft booths we have at work, they are ok. This is as far as I know, I can't quote the law (God, I don't beleive ANYONE can)

Johnny, if I were painting in a friggin bathroom with ISO's, you DAMN RIGHT I would be using fresh air!!!!

I would NOT even think of using a charcoal mask, ISO's or NO ISO's.

I forgot to address something. I KNOW , you KNOW everyone KNOWS that there are many more people out there that WILL use a charcoal respirator instead of buying a fresh air for their home hobbies. I don't own one myself (Though if I were painting at work, I sure would) I don't hardly paint at all anymore.

I want to make it darn clear to everyone who is going to rely on that charcoal respirator what is needed for that safety. If, the charcoal respirator was NOT to have the protection even under the best of cercumstances, I sure as heck want the home hobbyest to get the most out of it that he can. If the charcoal respirator was not doing that good of a job, at least they would get the best protection it can do.

If they don't follow these guidelines, then they are only putting them self in more danger.

I've worked in the coal mines of Eastern Kentucky for 30 years. I can tell you first handed what constance exposer to dust will do to your lungs, Right now I'm on two inhailers 4 times a day & can't do a lot before I'm breathing real hard, I didn't know enought back when I was running a scoop, a contionous miner & roof bolter back in the 70's to protect my lungs. I was interested in doing my job & making the big money that a coal miner could make. Now I pay for it every minute of every day & I'm only 50 years old.

I have a stupid question. I am about to buy my first welder....I know that I have to wear a helmet with a lense to protect my eyes, but how do you wear a respirator too when you have that helmet on? I'm talking about the things that go over your mouth and nose and chin and have the 2 canisters on them. Thanks!

YenkoChevelleabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ;)

Well, you can't.
I know a zillion guys that never have worn
anything over their nose and mouth while welding.
I did it for years.
What I did do, was keep whatever I was welding as clean as possible so I wasn't inhaling the vaporized krap on the steel. Make sure you have plenty of ventilation. I used a pedistal fan and put it behind me to blow relativly fresh air into the back of the helmit. Helped a bunch. Also on humid days, it kept the lense from sweating and fogging up.
The thing that nearly killed me was sand blasting without a mask. I had a helmit with a visor, but the fine dust made by sand goes right up the helmet. I was blasting my car in August and it was 94 deg and sunny with no wind.
I started in the morning and by 3 pm, I had visable problems breathing. I was really concerned. I got a dust mask and finished the job.
I still experienced problems breathing for the next couple weeks. I'm sure I did damage to my lungs with the super fine silica dust.
Who knows. I just felt like I was gonna die on the spot.

Dave

That is definitely NOT a stupid question.

SS_Dave is right on with the cleaner you get it, the better it will be.

Ever notice all the smoke from an arc welder vs. a tig welder? That's the flux coating on the arc welding rod. Flux is basically a cleaner. It's removing all the garbage on the metal and sending it into the air, and into your lungs.

My tig makes virtually no smoke when I clean the metal beforehand. I sand with emery cloth, then wipe down with isopropyl alcohol. The ventilation to your hood is probably the best advice.

Regular face-mask respirators won't get that fine sandblasting silica dust either. You really need a full fresh-air supply.

Crankshaft

I think it's correct to say that a respirator isn't needed when MIG welding clean steel with C25, isn't it? It's a fluxless process.

Zinc is a killler, of course, and everybody knows about welding galvanized metal... but did you know that most weld-through primers have a lot of zinc in them too? Let's be careful out there!

Reid

Good info, now a little off topic but don't forget hearing protection too. I didn't pay much attention to it for my first 45 years around cars, construction tools and loud steros but now have permanent ringing in one ear and expect the second to start any second. I now carry ear plugs all the time and use them anytime I use tools, mowers, etc. I didn't think it would happen to me either :confused:

SS_Dave I wouldnt not have made the statement of wearing an approved WELDING mask under the helmet if I didnt wear one myself. A welding mask is totally different then a painting mask, not even the same thing.

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/masks.JPG
This pic shows what mask I wear for welding and painting. If that welding mask doesnt fit under your helmet YENKO send it to me Ill buy it from you. The 3M part number is 07182, and it clearly stats on the package APPROVED for brake, clutch, body work, welding, sanding and undercoating. This mask is what the 3M rep brought to my old shop after my accident. After I went back to work all 4 of the other body guys wore a mask while welding. I guess the image of watching a coworker get wheeled out on a stretcher with their eyes rolled back in the head leaves a lasting impression.

The bigger mask is my primer mask. This mask I believe anyone doing any type of paint work should buy as you can see it covers the entire face. Your eyes are as a big of a target as your lungs for ISO's,its like a open wound. Also notice the mask has a double seal around the nose-mouth. Ive found this mask to be a huge difference, as before I had this I would get some slight light breath but with this thing its all gone way. If a fresh air unit is not for you then the next best thing would be atlest this mask. NOt 100% sure on the part# but try this 6892, once again its 3M

Some might think this is joke but I guarantee you wont when you wake up in the hospital with tubes coming out of you every which way except your arse.

Steel found on probably most of todays autos contain a certain amount of zinc on them. Eventho it doesnt look like gal metal it still has a nice amount of zinc on it, just enough to get ya if exposed in the right amounts and in the right environment.

I cant believe anyone would risk their health for a measly 25 bucks for a welding mask. The same thing for a painters mask.


I think it's correct to say that a respirator isn't needed when MIG welding clean steel with C25, isn't it? It's a flux less process.
I wish that was true

Also like to stat if you can SMELL the fumes or cant breathe, that mask is way beyond its replacemnt date. ISO's are a oderless fume, if you can smell them in the mask that filter is so saturated with ISO's it is doing NO good what so ever. Once again those filters are good for only about 8hrs. Once you are done painting you MUST seprate both the pre filter and cart filter and place them in different bags. If you dont the cart filter still draws contaniments out from the pre filter. By the next morning those filters are JUNK

I haven't purchased all the gear yet, but was just wondering and getting my questions answered in advance. THANKS! You were a big help (as usual)

I can't use that welding respirator with the helmet I use so I use a 3M disposable welding respirator, costs about $18.00.

Earlier this morning I checked some prices and part numbers of the masks we use at work.
For welding the mask I use is a 3M mask under the number of 07182 with price of 19.99. The painters mask which is the common half mask is 07193 cost of 18.99. My painting mask is the full face mask with a number of 06589 I believe cost around 150. For sanding I use the same mask as my welding mask, but use one for welding another for sanding. My welding/sanding mask has filters that are interchangable. The filter number is P100 but couldnt find a price on filters. The painting mask has 2 filters that make up the filtering unit. The first fliter or pre filter has a number of P95 costs 1.29 to replace. The second or organic vapor filter carries a number of 07195 costs 13.02.

Remember all those are 3M numbers. Also 3M has 3 different sizes in their masks, small, med and large. You need to test fit the mask so you know you have the proper size. Also the mask numbers will change for the different sizes, for example my welding mask is a med with part numer 07182, if you wanted the small its number would be 07181, large-07183. The same with painting masks.

Just a few things I should bring up on painting safty is you should also wear a painting suit and head sock. The suit protects your arms legs from overspray, were the sock covers hair and neck. The reason you should wear those items is because the overspray sticks everywhere. In the summer when its hot your body sweats opening it pores. Now you start painting and have a direct path for those harmful ISO into your bloodstream. Iso can get into the blood thro the lungs but takes longer, but now ISOs get in there fairly quick. Now you can run the risk of nervous system and heart problems smile.gif

Another reason to wear a suit is because once done painting you just remove the suit and throw it away or you can store it in a baggy. If you dont wear the suit you can breathe the fumes that have now stuck on your clothes and hair. This has happened to me a several times when I painted darn near every day. On my way home I would get light headed and dizzy. I finally figured this out also thanks to the paint rep, now I wear a suit and have no problems.

If you dont want to purchase a suit, they are pretty cheap around 10 bucks, atleast wear long sleeved shirts and pants. Also when done painting change your clothes so you wont be breathing in those fumes...Eric

Great stuff Eric! You can get a little vial of stuff from the respirator manufactures that has a very strong odor. After fitting the mask you break this vial and wave it around the mask. If you can smell it, your doing something wrong!

I just had all my maskes fit tested at work and all worked perfect so it really isn't that hard. You just need to be in tune with what the variables are.

Eric you have really done a great job on giving everyone some valuable information about protecting themselves.Like you I do this kind of work everyday(15 years so far)it is good to see everyone taking care of their health.I would like to add it is very important to wear gloves to protect your hands as well,like the thicksters from SAS,or the thick marigolds.You can never be to safe.

Your scareing me I started looking for a full face fresh air resperator I spray a lot of contac cement and lacquer for work. I looked on Auto body pro .com I diden't find the masks but they have a link to safety and environment osha respirator maint.rules they say some respirators have a end of life indicator and that depending on use some filters may have to be changed as often as every day. Do fresh air masks still use filters.

Tommy, to my knowledge all the fresh air units still use some type of filter. One type of fresh air is a small pump that you set up outside in a clean air area. This small oil-less pump pumps air into the mask. The drawback to this system is that you must carry around a hose for the air and one for the spray gun. The pump has filters you can add depending on the environment, you can add a HEPA filter and or a organic vapor filter. Those filters wont need to changed everyday.

I came across a system like that on ebay check it out. I know nothing about its quailty or anything, so I dont know if its good brand or not.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2540532464&category=11905
Or this system same concept
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2330658357&category=22779

There are 2 other system out there, One unit delivers air from an air compressor-the most expensive unit. The other is a battery pack kinda deal that doesnt deliver air from outside the painting area, but has alot better filters. I do have some part number but not on me, Ill post them later along with a pic of the battery pack unit...Eric

It's in the best interest of an employer to look out for his workers and care about their health, they should!In the long run it's more cash for their pocket anyway.Haveing and KEEPING qualified people.If they put the money up for proper supplies and what not,in most cases its a right off for them anyway.It boils down to being a cheap skate or their really crappy with their funds.A friend of my dads actually got lung cancer,and he never smoked.I know him to..he got really sick and took time off and his employer said they had to let him go.He is still fighting it in court.Not so much was said but it's obvious their worried about insurance premiums and saving cash.

So where's the best place to buy a mask for welding?

Dave

sevt- chevelle someone on the site has a saying lifes hard it's evan harder when your stupid.I can sure relate to that sometimes.My Grainger web site would takeover when I was halfway through a responseCould be all the lac. I've sniffed. The ebay links were good I like the mci-72 not a bad price I don't think. I really like the idea of the sandblast hood that would make sandblasting almost Fun. They also have agood looking weld mask .They all adapt to the same pump. Gerson has all kinds of regular weld and spray respirators .Survival air systems has some high priced fresh air systems if you use them every day. 3M site has Lots of stuff but no prices. Thanks for bringing up the subject I will be takeing more precautions in the future.

Hi yall; I`m fairley new here,but I have been around for a long time.I`ve been painting for 50 years, most of the time I used a good mask.I`ve been lucky. I`ve coached pee wee baseball,and soccer,hiked with the boy scouts,always been heaithy and active.
Two years ago, I shot my first POR 15. A 66 ElCamino on the rotisery,new floors. Shot the frame out side,shot the floors inside,doors open fans on.The last thing I remembered was washing the gun.Woke up in the emergency room,could not breath,
I`m not over it yet,and never will be. I can not handle the smell of paint. And that is what I love to do.
My retirement is not as fun as it was supposed to be.POR 15 is very deadly stuff,DO NOT BREATH IT!!

US OLD PAINTERS SHOULD PREACH THIS TO THE NEW GUYS.
I COULD GO ON AND ON.I hope these post help someone.
Troy;

Tommy,
the 3M rep is stopping by again on wednesday with more info and some demos graemlins/hurray.gif
From what Ive heard the hobby air systems are pretty good units, which would be the 2nd one I listed.
Now when you spray this stuff are you in one spot all day or moving around like from job site to job site? If you stay in one place the air pump units would be the best. 3m and SATA both make really nice units, but from what the PPG rep has said sata has a better system.

Now if you look on the 3M site you should see a system that fastens to your belt. This is the battery pack unit that doesnt pump in fresh air from outside but filters air from the painting area but has much better filters. Cant think of the part number, but if you are moving to job site to job site this would be the unit to have as its portable, were the other units are limited to the hose length.

Now we've been quoted 2 prices for the 3m belt unit, 1057.99 and 900.00. The first was from where we buy paint-arnold motor supply. The second was where we buy our GM parts, Rydell chevrolet in waterloo IA. Now keep in mind this price is thro our shop, to Joe Smoe off the street this unit is 1600 bucks. You might want to see if your employer has an account with someone that carries 3M and buy the system thro your employer, thats what I do with all my paint, welding, any auto related stuff, I run it thro the shop and get a super nice discount :D

The big drawback to this system is that depending on how much you spray and the containment levels you might end up changing filters every month or less. The filters are made up of both a hepa filter and organic vpaor filter, they cost about 60 bucks to replace the entire filter unit :eek: . If you had to replace every month in two years the cost of filters exceeds the cost of the system, so going to a pump unit would be a better choice. Also should mention 3M has a thing that you wear on your shirt for a week, after that week you send it in to the 3M labs and they test that thing which will tell you the containment levels and how often you need to change filters.

Scooby, any auto parts supply house can get 3M stuff, take in those part numbers and order away...Eric

sevt-chevelle and yall Thanks for the info. I had no idea so much equipment existed. I checked out the Graingers catalog today ,everybody has a Grainger near them and it's easy to get a acct. Man they have everytheing some prices seem o.k. but they also have filters that are 900-1000 by themselves wow.I picked up new filters for my resperator this morning and it says on the package good for 8 hrs.I've been way overusing my filters

I have been painting for fifteen years and i always used a charcoal mask, but i usually toss it in a ziplock bag when im done,i never seperate the filters.I have been painting almost every day for the past year, i have experienced wheezing,chest pains, ect. I just decieded to go for the Hobbyair setup, five or six hundred bucks is nothing compared to being sick the rest of your life. Its tough trying to explain to coworkers and others why 'you waste your time and money with that stuff'( fresh air sytems, paint suits,and masks) graemlins/sad.gif

Glad I saw this thread even if it did cost me close to 600 bucks for the ProAir 40 I just ordered yesterday. I only paint 2 cars a year or so but figured if I can justify buying a new Sata spraygun,I can spend the money to save my health. Thanks guys.Years from now may really owe you one.

Theres some stuff that the 3M guy dropped off the other week. Some info on 2 fresh air units.
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/mask2.jpg
This frist unit is one that gets fresh air from the air compressor, not a seprate air pump like the hobbyair units. Cost is around the 2000 dollar range


http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/mask1.jpg
This unit is not in all reality a fresh air system, but uses filters that are of much higher quality. they are even osha and niosha approved in certain containment levels. This would be the battery pack unit Ive mentioned before. It retails from 900 to 1600 bucks depending if you are a Joe Smoe off the street or have dealer discount.

To learn more about 3M's masks call 1-800-243-4630

I just spent the day using aircraft paint remover on the Corvair. Then, I was grinding out all the filler. Then, I rattle-can primered the car to cover it until my body-man gets it.

All this in shorts and a tank top. Oh, and a bucket of water and a washcloth when the stripper gets on me.

THEN, I come in and read all this.

I was going to do the same thing over again tomorrow, but instead, I'll just enjoy the day until Monday (until I get me some items for my own safety).

THANK YOU everyone for this thread topic. Alot of us shadetree people don't even have the dangers crossing our mind. Personally, I had no idea it could be this dangerous. Even after 32 years, I can still be taught something!

So, have you heard anything from Car Craft magazine yet?

Randy, I sent them my letter(your letter really smile.gif ) the other day. So i guess Ill have to keep my eyes open for any up coming issues.

To those that might not know I sent car craft a letter asking them to do a article on heath and safety protection. I felt like picking on them as I get 4 mags, Car craft, rod and custom, classic trucks and super chevy. Anyway I felt like car craft was the worst, NEVER said anything about safety protection in the 10-15 issues that i found that dealt with bodywork, which I found disgusting as they take it upon themselves to teach HOW TO but dont tell how to protect themselves graemlins/sad.gif

We'll see how important that letter was to them...Eric

I think its really great Al or ? made this a sticky post. ALthough many of us enjoy the paint/body aspect of the hobby, the obvious fact is that many of us are not around this stuff enough to know or see the actual damage these products CAN cause. I said CAN, because if you are safe, things will probably be fine as long as you follow the precautions outlined here. BUT, if you are careless, You WILL get hurt; either short term or long term- this stuff is toxic to the human body- PERIOD. It certainly has made me even more cautious than I already am- and I use a respirator to spray rattle can stuff tongue.gif

Thank you for this thread. When I think of the dumb things I have done in the last 4 or 5 years, I am gratefull that I didn't have big projects and really hurt myself. I will be investing in safety equiptment! Notice, I use the word 'invest', rather than 'spend'.

just like to add a reply about where i work at a fiber cement plant in illinois recently there was a fire and an out side contractor was brought in to make repairs, while the company i work for is very saftey contious a young worker(22) for the contractor was on a large man lift to replace burnt insulation in the ceiling and did not attach his saftey harness that would have taken 2 seconds to latch, fell from the lift after striking a large stack of fiber cement with the lift and landed on his head on the cement floor and died shortly after!! what a waste of human life and so young !!! PLEASE take the time to think and use saftey precautions at all times!! i used to hate wearing my hard hat but never think twice about it now!! we are all more fragile than we would like to beleive!! hope this reply may help someone prevent this kind of thing in there place of employment!! I never even knew the guy but felt terrible for days knowing it happened and that it was were i work every day it is a reminder i wish i didnt have to think about !! his 20 yr old soon to be wife brought in a small wreath and attached it to the i beam close to where it happened and i thought i would cry when i saw her do it!! all the lives that little tiny buckle effected!! think about it!! :(

Originally posted by sevt_chevelle:
Randy, I sent them my letter(your letter really smile.gif ) the other day. So i guess Ill have to keep my eyes open for any up coming issues.

To those that might not know I sent car craft a letter asking them to do a article on heath and safety protection. I felt like picking on them as I get 4 mags, Car craft, rod and custom, classic trucks and super chevy. Anyway I felt like car craft was the worst, NEVER said anything about safety protection in the 10-15 issues that i found that dealt with bodywork, which I found disgusting as they take it upon themselves to teach HOW TO but dont tell how to protect themselves graemlins/sad.gif

We'll see how important that letter was to them...Eric It's been a while. Has Car Craft printed your letter, or have they acknowledged it in any way?

Randy,Ive emailed it twice now. I have not seen the letter printed in any of the pubishings that Primedia own, or have heard anything back from car craft.

Ill try once more then send a few hand writing letters. Then we'll find out that this issue's of rebuilding SBC are far more important then a small little letter or article on health and saftey :(

Eric, If you want to get their attn send a letter something like this.

From: Scheister and Huckster Attny at large

We would like to thank you for sending out dangerous info to your readers. We gladly await our multimillion dollar lawsuit against you and your deep pockets. The lack of safety info was a reinforcement of your flagrent dissreguard for health and safety. We will also be contacting various firesafety experts to help us bury you forever.

P.S. Can you recommend a good realestate agent?
After this we are buying Disneyland!

Just need to be subtle with these dolts

Sooooo... I have a $40 ("home despot") mask for general use/fume approved (carbon canister) - better than nothing??? As any body work I do will be "hobbyist" one time/personal use - will it be adequate? I've ALWAYS taken EXTRA precautions with eye/ear/lung protection - but this makes me wonder - is it enough? (Works well for the occaisional dog doo - which is as bad as I want to deal with).I'm almost 50 and can see great, hear great, and smell - well OK... (depends on who you ask....)

BG

Wow this post makes my chest feel heavy :( Thanks for the advice.

hi all i'm new guy,recognize some of u from hot rods & chevy truk forums. when we were young, brave,& ignorant or stupid to some degree we say we can handle it. i started shooting lacquer in late 60's no mask. went on to do alot of welding of all type(even got certified), moved into construction. i've seen & fallen to safety hazards of all types. i'm now 50 been on disability since 89 when steel bolt rotted thru on aluminum ladder- 32' fall on head &ruining my back & nervous system due to electrolis. i'm 80% deaf in right ear 20%left side- u name it i nevr wore plugs shooting hunting grinding flying (props few feet from ears max.speed governed by supersonic speed at prop tips- slightly slower) open pipes on my stroked harelys my whole life(someone handed me a set of plugs on way to Sturgis in 99, now wear on any extended ride-& feel better at end of day for it). it all adds up & as someone said we are responsible for our own well being & safety. i know it sounds like preaching but like politics or religion i share my views with someone who wants it.
i have a full face fresh air system 3-m#6897is on the haedband? it has y fitting,2 hoses to area filters would go to into 1 feed. i feed it off sear $100 oilless pancake type compressor from opposite side of garage. i have sidedraft home made booth wrapped with 6mill fireproof plastic i got at menards for less the $200 -20'x200'roll9special order) i filter my fresh air thru 6micron filter a water & seperate oil trap. i feel comfortable at 3-5lbs pressure on fresh air. 3-m has tear off face sheild sheets i use. i charge ea. customer $50 on ea. bill for shop material & show these TOOLS/Disposable Material for the job to them with receipts backup. i got this set up from Napa Auto store in my town. they have web page for verifying retail pricing on line for 3-m products. i know this set up is better than cartridge type i even use at times. my exhaust is belt driven(rerouteed outside) whole house fan for 3600cfm it sucks my doors open to house if not latch. i have 2 vent fans in my welding area 1 intake for when painting to keep up with exhaust, 1 exhaust for welding area. suggest to younins not to take as long as this old fart did to give a sh_t about getting old & walking crooked. thes are some home brew remedies for some of the safety factors we all face just staying out of trouble in the garage. just remember the best way to make it ur own is put some of u into it. jw art

I still stir my coffee with a screwdriver. Yes yall are correct,there is some really nasty stuff out there.Do you rember GM top engine cleaner? Cancer in a can is what we used to call it. I think its out lawed in Cali, go figure..

I am a body shop manager at a GMC dealership. It is my understanding that respirators only stop particulates and will not stop isocyanates, period. The only way to stop isocyanates is to use a supplied air system. You absorb isocyanates through your mouth, nose, eyes and skin. All hardeners, catalysts and reactive reducers contain isocyanates. All of the painters that have worked for me are iso sensitive to some degree. It is irreversible. Simply stopping use of these chemicals does not clear your system. I now require all of my painters to wear a full suit, nitrile gloves, head sock and use a supplied air respirator with o2 monitoring. This is why we get the big bucks for our paint jobs. Cheap paint jobs are performed by cheap painters who are either not concerned about their health or are ignorant of the facts. My painters are my friends and I hope to know them for many years. I'll spend whatever it takes to make sure they're healthy. I myself am iso senstive from painting sunfire urethane many years ago. Like imron, it's loaded with iso's. I get a reaction from simply walking into the booth after the painting is finished. I've even gotten a reaction from wet sanding the finish days later. If you care about your health, don't spray paint of any kind unless you have a supplied air system. Those cheap 3M masks just don't work. We use them for sanding.

This posting has really made me think. After painting many years with just a mask, I am going to invest in a supplied air system. Has anyone out there used the SAS system that uses shop air as breathing air? It has a unit that hangs on a belt and uses one supply hose from the air compressor. It then divides the air between the paint gun, air tools, etc and either a full hood, half mask or a full face mask. Anyone used this setup?? This setup costs less than $400-seems like money well spent!
Thanks
Steve

I have the survive air system and it seems to work well, I only use it for larger jobs but it is well designed IMO and gives you good freedom of movement. The filters are a bit pricey but then again they all are from what I've been told. To use it to it's full potential you should also have a good wall mounted desicant dryer/filter before the line. I only have three regular type watertraps inline but it still works good IMO, I bet some compressor byproducts are in my breathing air but better than paint I hope.

GM Top Engine Cleaner is dangerous? I just recently bought a can...has the formula been changed?

I would also like to add a note to this safety post: wear eye protection underneath cars, rusty or not. Before I did, I was lucky enough to always be able to fish out crap that fell in my eyes, but my best friend wasn't. He got a piece of metal in his eye, thought he got it out and woke up the next morning in agonizing pain. The piece of metal began to corode in his retina and I had to take him to the hospital to have it removed with an optical drill: painless but very scary to have done.

OK, time to weigh in on this.
1 - Sandblasting. wear eye, lung & ear protection
2 - Painting, BuzzBomb or Gun. wear lung protection. ISO's, wear lung, eye, nose & skin protection (would a "tyvec" suit from safety supply stores work?)
3 - Welding. Lung & eye protection
4 - Polishing. eye, ear & lung protection
5 - mechanical. eye, lung & ear protection

Can I also say that the need for other safety equipment is also neccesary? make sure you have a fire extiguisher in your shop..... welding & backfires can flare up a quick fire without you noticing (also good for the turkey fryer)
if you have a beard (as I do) I was told to use vaseline around the mask seal to block dust & paint from entering the mask. is this true? (i still do it and it does make a bit of a mess, but better a few minutes of clean up than a lifetime of breathing problems)
I also work with wood so these items come in handy as well
I have a full mask (with eye protection), a half "charcoal" mask, a half "dust / particulate" mask but no welding mask..... money that needs to be spent, as a friend often says, "you'll only complain about it once.... and thats when you have to pay the big dollar for it." he also goes further by saying, " you know, you've never heard anyone say "this garage is too big" or "man.... thats just TOO much horsepower", so why do they complain about safety glasses and resperators?" (wise beyond his years)
anyway, I was a lurker here for awhile & had to put my 2 cents in on this one..... very responsible thread started, thanks

I hope to live long enough to be an old, fat, bald guy graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I will agree with all of you. I am 24 amd have been in the air force for three years now. I am on the flightline all the time when they are running f-16's and have to wear double hearing proection.

thanks for the post/info man, you just inspired me to wear my respirator mask more when I paint (artist-aerosol,lacquer, basically everything with potent fumes...)

every time i paint a car(not to offen anymore) i feel sick for a couple days, even with mask, suite, good vent. i talked to my doctor, and of course he said dont paint(he can afford to have someone paint his stuff)
he belives that the problem is my eyes were obsorbing the fumes, he said he has seen that before-i have talked to some other painters, and they have also heard of that-im gonna try some kind of goggles next time, some have tear-offs, so the paint wont ruin them

Where does one find a good dust/particulate mask?

Well Overland Paint right here in Overland park can hook you up. Right off Metcalf and 79th.
3M makes a nice one, make sure you the get the PINK P100 filters with it instead of the white P95.

Or give Mike at Blue ridge paint a call, 816-737-2600, thats where I get my stuff.

I hear ya.... and my dads been paintin' for years..
never doned a mask till like '97 and is paying big time .. he looks like he's had a stroke but doc's swear he didn't.... the stuff in the paint today is made for clean air(enviroment) not your health (sad but true) my question is I plane on painting most of the parts and maybe the body of my car... and a fresh air system is out.. but because I live near the coast ... I'd think a scuba mask/tank would do the same thing and other than a tank on your back(they make small ones) it seem that they work for a dui painter...
and info on y this maynot work welcome... graemlins/waving.gif

Well do a search on
www.hotrodders.com (http://www.hotrodders.com)
Ive read some info about such a setup...Eric

Just found this post and wanted to comment. This is a very serious problem with doing bodywork or anything dealing with things that are airborne. The first bodyshop I ever worked at was a Ford dealership and one of the guys that was teaching me the ropes hardly ever wore a mask while he painted. He was in his 50's and it didn't phase him, he had been painting for probably over 20-30 years. I painted something in my bay one day and didn't think I would need a mask. BOY WAS I WRONG!!! I coughed crap up for a couple of weeks after that incident. Years ago, before I start doing bodywork as a job, I did some custom fiberglass work on a truck I had and I didn't wear a respirator. I was affected by that for a few months with a bad cough. I am still kinda young (30 :thumbsup: ) and still have a lot of life ahead of me and plus I have 2 sons. I now use my respirators when I am sanding and when I am painting.

Ben

i had to quit body work as a profession just out of high school, in my second year of a two hour a day, all year high school auto body class, i started getting headaches and just not feeling well...after graduation i lasted about 2 months in an 8 hour a day job environment, i couldnt believe how bad the constant exposure (and this is with the normal shop safety measures) kicked my but....the stuff is nasty.
i can also attest to the hearing thing after framing custom homes for 15 years with a worm drive skill saw 3 feet from your ear for a good 2 hours out of an eight hour day, heard of tintinitis?...i hear a constant ringing in my ears....sometimes barely, sometimes not so much, funny thing is, now osha is demanding framers wear hardhats but nothing about ear protection, i never once had anything even come close to hitting me on the head while building a roof, in fact i cant remember ever getting beaned while on the slab under some one on the roof

hey Bljak64 ?...did you ever see that guy on the flightline who got sucked into the air intake of a jet engine and lived to tell the tale!?...that was one of the most amazing things ever caught on film, sucked him in like a vacuum sucks up a dust bunny from a couple inches away, and a piece of his jacket somehow snagged something in the interior...what luck, bad and good

good but scary reading...