I ordered my hyd roller cam for my big block.Its a voodoo 60212, 282/290 231/239 .600"/.600" 110/106.I have a set of 074 heads that have been set up for a solid roller.I know I need a lighter set of springs for the hyd roller.I really don't want to get the springs from lunati sence they let harold go.What brand and part # of springs should I use?The heads have a tripple spring(outer,damper and inner)I don't suppose I can remove the inner spring and use the ones on the heads?Thanks Bill.

I really don't want to get the springs from lunati sence they let harold go.

Not sure I would balk on getting the recommended matching springs just because they let an employee go. It's nice to show loyalty to an individual and contributor of the forum, but.......
If you have a failure or warranty issue, I am sure they will want to know what springs you used. You may void the warranty. Just something to think about.

I am running the Comp 925 for my .540 lift roller, this is a decent quality spring. But I got a good look at the Comp 26120 Beehive and matching retainer tonight. Spring and retainer is probably 1/2 the weight of a conventional spring/retainer. Interestingly, the spring is right around 2.7" long unistalled and needs to compress about an inch installed. Obviously this is where the seat load comes in and also I think, the longer spring has more stored energy.

I ordered my hyd roller cam for my big block.Its a voodoo 60212, 282/290 231/239 .600"/.600" 110/106.I have a set of 074 heads that have been set up for a solid roller.I know I need a lighter set of springs for the hyd roller.I really don't want to get the springs from lunati sence they let harold go.What brand and part # of springs should I use?The heads have a tripple spring(outer,damper and inner)I don't suppose I can remove the inner spring and use the ones on the heads?Thanks Bill.
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Since it is a Billet core you can run any quality spring that sets up at whatever your installed height is.
Assuming 1.880-1.900", the 26120 Beehive is showing real promise in hyd roller applications.
With a conventional double spring I would want about 150-175 seat & 375-400 open depending on your RPM plans,,,
Isky 8305, Comp 928, etc,,

Also, you have double springs with a damper,not triples if there are two
coils. ;)
The damper is just that, a damper although it does add somewhat to the total spring load,,,,

I ordered my hyd roller cam for my big block.Its a voodoo 60212, 282/290 231/239 .600"/.600" 110/106.I have a set of 074 heads that have been set up for a solid roller.I know I need a lighter set of springs for the hyd roller.I really don't want to get the springs from lunati sence they let harold go.What brand and part # of springs should I use?The heads have a tripple spring(outer,damper and inner)I don't suppose I can remove the inner spring and use the ones on the heads?Thanks Bill.

Hi Bill, you may want to have the long(er) bottomed exhaust studs from ARP (#235-7203) installed. Those heads (the 074's) were prone to breaking the rocker stands off (specifically the exhaust, with roller cams) with the std. length G.M. studs. If you go with them, make sure the shop knows exactly how to install them. You have to make certain you DON'T drill through the center "heat-crossover" ports. The others will end up into the water jackets and installed with sealer, but that's how it's done. You can ruin the heads by "connecting" the heat passage with the water passage. Two studs have to be shortened slightly to fit properly. Also recommend some type spring seat cups/locators instead of shims. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. I use the Comp Cams #928 springs and Titanium retainers #733 on all decent Hyd.-Roller setups. Comp's been pushin' us to try the "beehives" but it'll be a long time comin' when I go back to ANY single spring setup. I don't know your entire combo, but those heads have extremely small runners, I believe they are about 290 cc's. They are great for 396's and small 427's, which they were originally designed around. Am building 2 pair of those and 1 pair of the #14011077's, which are similar, at this time. I'm working with 3 customers that simply wanted the "snowflake" casting on the heads.

I allready had the long exhaust studs installed.My machine shop didn't shorten any studs but I checked the ones by the heat passage and can't see any problems where they were drilled.I hope there isn't a problem.Will the solid roller springs I have on the heads work?Thanks Bill.

William, if I missed the info, sorry. But to answer your question, if you do not know the exact part number abd specs of the springs you already have, best thing is to pull a couple (I would pull one pair). Take them to a local shop and have them tested for spring pressure at the installed ht as now set up and the open ht of the cam you are going to use. As long as the result is in the neighborhood of about 150 or so at the seat and 350 - 370 open, those springs will be work.

I checked the installed hight of my springs they measured 1.990n the intake and 1.980 on exhaust.I only checked one intake and one exhaust but by the measurements it looks like it has the longer springs.If i go with the comp #928 spring what do I need to do to get them shimmed right?There is only a thin shim on the bottom of the spring about .015 it has been recomended that i go with cups on the bottom?If I go with cups can I get them thick enough to get the spring at the right height?Thanks Bill.

I checked the installed hight of my springs they measured 1.990n the intake and 1.980 on exhaust.I only checked one intake and one exhaust but by the measurements it looks like it has the longer springs.If i go with the comp #928 spring what do I need to do to get them shimmed right?There is only a thin shim on the bottom of the spring about .015 it has been recomended that i go with cups on the bottom?If I go with cups can I get them thick enough to get the spring at the right height?Thanks Bill.
Hi Bill, the 928's will put you in at 150# @ 1.940. If you use the 4700 Comp Cams spring cups along with your measured height, you should be all set to go. The heads will have to be machined for the larger OD on the cups, I believe they are 1.670" and they fit on the guide OD's as is. Best way to go. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

Gary,I didn't think about the heads having to be machined for the cups.Is there another way to go that doesn't require machining?I hate to have the heads machined for the cups now because the machine shop I use is about 140 miles away and I would have to take them and leave them and then go back after them.I really don't want to ship them and risk them being dammaged or lost.Would it work to shim them about .040?Thanks Bill.

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Gary,I didn't think about the heads having to be machined for the cups.Is there another way to go that doesn't require machining?I hate to have the heads machined for the cups now because the machine shop I use is about 140 miles away and I would have to take them and leave them and then go back after them.I really don't want to ship them and risk them being dammaged or lost.Would it work to shim them about .040?Thanks Bill.
Hi Bill, you should be able to use locators, part #4780-16. These should lay right in position and fit with the 928 springs. The shims are really not a good choice as they allow the springs to "slide" back and forth too much and generate extra heat at the lower section of the spring. With the cups you have a much more rigid setup. You may also want to check retainer to guide specs. before you assemble everything. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. I didn't realize the distance between you and the shop. But It makes me want to ask another question? When you speak with the machine shop, why wouldn't they cover this with you all at one time, really "sharp" builders try to "cover all the bases" at once, instead of having to run back and forth. Once I quote a price over here, I stick with it, unless it involves change of plan or parts. Even then, it's a customer's choice. There's no "get 'em in the door" and raise the price by us (low-ballin'). Good luck!

Bill,
If you are needing .040 another option is the Isky 940-VSL locator.
It is .045 thick instead of .060 as Comps are.
The guide should be about .625" OD or so for any of these locators
Isky 940, Comp 4780 or 4777

If your guide OD is smaller, like .565" at the base there are other locators that will work better.:)

Also, if you do need shims, put them under the locator not on top as the locators & cups are harder than hell & won't "fret",,

I know according to the (Comp) catalog sizes that either number should go, but I've got both on the shelf and the 4780's measure 1.545 O.D. and the 4777's measure 1.555. The book says 1.550" for either, but the measured sizes don't relate. If he checks those heads, he'll probably find that the seats, "as is", are a little under 1.550, which means he'll have to machine the head for that (4777) number also. It's tough sometimes to rely on the info in the catalogs. This is another "gripe" I have with the mfr's. Thanks Gary in N.Y.
P.S. His guides are .625" O.D. in the #074 heads. I don't use any Isky parts (except for "Flatheads") so I can't say here as to their fit.

I know according to the (Comp) catalog sizes that either number should go, but I've got both on the shelf and the 4780's measure 1.545 O.D. and the 4777's measure 1.555. The book says 1.550" for either, but the measured sizes don't relate. If he checks those heads, he'll probably find that the seats, "as is", are a little under 1.550, which means he'll have to machine the head for that (4777) number also. It's tough sometimes to rely on the info in the catalogs. This is another "gripe" I have with the mfr's. Thanks Gary in N.Y.
P.S. His guides are .625" O.D. in the #074 heads. I don't use any Isky parts (except for "Flatheads") so I can't say here as to their fit.
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I am aware the guides are .625 but have seen them cut to the head on some which is why I mentioned it.

The Iskys are 1.540 which makes life a lot easier,,
I wasn't aware the 4780's were 1.545, thanks for the info.
Yea,, the 1.550 deal from Comp is somethin I been bitchin about for years as all the cutters are also 1.550 & it makes the locators a pain to install most of the time.
Would be nice if either the locator was 1.545 or the cutter was 1.555 so I don't have to "reengineer" the wheel,,, :(
Not a big deal for a shop, just another "aggravation" but a real pain sometimes for the home guy,,

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With a conventional double spring I would want about 150-175 seat & 375-400 open depending on your RPM plans,,,
Isky 8305, Comp 928, etc,,

Isn`t that a little high for a hyd lifter?
It used to be that about 130 lbs was about it for seat pressure and somewhere around 350 lbs for open pressure was about all anybody would recommend...has the thinking changed recently?

What`s the limit these days for a Hyd roller without a rev-kit?

Gary,Mike,thanks for the help.It's my fault that the heads were not setup for the right springs at my machine shop.When I bought the heads they were allready set up for a solid roller and had new guides and fresh valve job.You guys recomended the longer studs and I had to take a block to my machinest so I took the heads and told them to put the long studs in the exhaust.They checked the heads out compleatly and told me that the springs were for a solid roller cam only and I would have to change them if I used anything else.I could not decide what kind of cam to use so when I picked up the block 2 weeks later I also picked up the heads.I could take them back up there but sence I am a auto tech with about 30 years experience and with you guys combined experience I thought I could fix it myself and learn somthing in the process.I have been around and worked on race cars (dirt late models and drag cars)and performance engines most of my life.The town I live in has a machine shop but I would not take my lawn mower engine to them.They have very inexperienced help and we send all of our machine work out of town.The machine shop I use also builds the engines for our dirt late model.I checked my guide dia today and it is .625 I didn't check the outside dia of the spring pocket I can do that in the morning.I checked the retainer to guide clearance and I have gobs of room for a .600 lift cam.As I said before the installed height on the 2 that I checked was 1.990 and 1.980 so if I need an installed height of 1.940 I need to go with a locater about.040 to .045 thick?Those comp spacers are .060 is that close enough or should I go with the ones that mike sugested that were .045?Thanks for your help guys.Bill

We see 6550 RPM (BB's) on the dyno as the limit before valve float. The pressure out the door is 160/165 closed vs. 380 open @ .730" lift. The engines peak at 6200 RPM, so you've got a little cushion of about 350 RPM. This is still using Stainless valves and Titanium retainers and under 9.8:1 C.R. We're in the process of testing with all Titanium, valves and retainers, and expect to see between 7000 & 7500 RPM. Once we can get the RPM range up there along with a slight C.R. increase, maybe 10.5/10.75:1, we should be able to chase the 800 HP number. We are presently at 750+ HP and 710+ Ft.Lbs. torque on the BB's. Best of all, on these BB's we delivered, the customer's are running fine on 89 octane, with a 9.75:1 C.R. The SB's we can get over 7000 RPM as of now with Stainless valves. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. Makes for some nice "no-maintenance" units. We've had the opportunity recently to test some (dual) valve springs that have 6 years on them and they're still as good as the day we installed them.

Gary,Mike,thanks for the help.It's my fault that the heads were not setup for the right springs at my machine shop.When I bought the heads they were allready set up for a solid roller and had new guides and fresh valve job.You guys recomended the longer studs and I had to take a block to my machinest so I took the heads and told them to put the long studs in the exhaust.They checked the heads out compleatly and told me that the springs were for a solid roller cam only and I would have to change them if I used anything else.I could not decide what kind of cam to use so when I picked up the block 2 weeks later I also picked up the heads.I could take them back up there but sence I am a auto tech with about 30 years experience and with you guys combined experience I thought I could fix it myself and learn somthing in the process.I have been around and worked on race cars (dirt late models and drag cars)and performance engines most of my life.The town I live in has a machine shop but I would not take my lawn mower engine to them.They have very inexperienced help and we send all of our machine work out of town.The machine shop I use also builds the engines for our dirt late model.I checked my guide dia today and it is .625 I didn't check the outside dia of the spring pocket I can do that in the morning.I checked the retainer to guide clearance and I have gobs of room for a .600 lift cam.As I said before the installed height on the 2 that I checked was 1.990 and 1.980 so if I need an installed height of 1.940 I need to go with a locater about.040 to .045 thick?Those comp spacers are .060 is that close enough or should I go with the ones that mike sugested that were .045?Thanks for your help guys.Bill
Hey Bill, drop in the 4780's and you're good to go. No shims necessary as long as your pressures are as quoted. One more note, the reason I questioned the machine shop procedure was due more to the fact that if you were going to run a solid roller, there is no way you should even consider a 1.550 spring. EVERY solid roller BB gets a 1.625 spring. This is not optional, it's mandatory here on BB builds. We won't install any 1.550's on Solid Rollers. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

Isn`t that a little high for a hyd lifter?
It used to be that about 130 lbs was about it for seat pressure and somewhere around 350 lbs for open pressure was about all anybody would recommend...has the thinking changed recently?

What`s the limit these days for a Hyd roller without a rev-kit?
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Not on a Billet & my understanding is all Lunati rollers are Billet.:)

You are correct, I would not consider running this pressure on a cast roller.
But that is "academic" as I would not consider running a cast roller of any kind in anything I build anyway :D

Rev kits, in my opinion do more for solid roller life than RPM.
The important weight is on the valve side of the valve train.
I have tried the AFR rev kit on hyd rollers in a small block with little benefit, certainly nothing like the claims in the ads,,.
The hyd roller deal is dependent on lobe design, spring/retainer/ valve weight & the spring used.
And you have to remember, you will need to add a lot more spring on the lifter side to equal what you get from the valve side.

I have not seen a Rat go beyond about 64-6500 with a hyd roller used as intended & this was with 11/32 valves, good springs & Titanium retainers.
Most hyd rollers in a Rat are done right at 6000 regardless of what they rev to.

William, you will have to change retainers too. And since the gurus are here, my 990s had the big springs and titaniums. The shop is searching for a spring for a solid flat tappet 130/345 - ish that will work with the larger retainer. Any thoughts

William, you will have to change retainers too. And since the gurus are here, my 990s had the big springs and titaniums. The shop is searching for a spring for a solid flat tappet 130/345 - ish that will work with the larger retainer. Any thoughts
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Ummmm Gene,,
A little more info would be good,,,
Kinda hard to answer not knowing what "big springs" be meanin :D
What are the steps on your retainers or what retainer are they?
Installed height"
Only about a zillion different ones out there :waving:

My understanding has been that the limiting factor with spring pressure on a hyd cam was due to the lifter itself.
Too much and the lifter can`t function correctly.

Wolfplace, what would be the upper limit on a hyd roller in your opinion on a BBC with a 2.25" valve,11/32 stem, titanium retainers ?.

I hear you Mr. Lewis. I'll just let those fellas pick something out. Likely need to buy new retainers/locks. But THNX! for spending a moment on my query.

Everything I have read has the open pressure at 350#. Crane recommends a lot more with their rollers, but their lifter may handle more - don't know for sure. My Comp 854's are real happy with 130/340. Vince (69-CHVL) recently installed 26120 Beehives, but they went in at about 1.83 - 1.85 installed ht and a resulting seat pressure of about 160 - 170# with around 360 open and his GM lifters are supposed to be tapping all the time.

Everything I have seen has come up conclusive that that hyd rollers like a longer than normal spring with a mid 300's (350 or so ) rate. Install at normal ht (1.880 - 1.900). This allows for more seat pressure but does not create excess open pressure. A think the longer, lighter springs also store more energy. The worse case is to use traditional short high rate springs. These work just the opposite with hyd rollers. My Comp NX279HR is supposed to have Comps most aggressive hyd roller lobes (the 279 intake lobe is from the 4x4 truck series, the exh is the std issue 294 XE hyd roller lobe). Now that I have everything else ironed out, this motor revs smoothly to about 6200 with a Comp 925 spring and steel retainer(may go Titanium retainers over the winter just for that little extra edge - although I do think 6200 is plenty of RPM for any hyd cam motor whether flat tappet or hyd roller).

Mike,Gary I was going over the comp 928 spring and the locater info on the comp web site.I wanted to go over everything before I order.Specs on springs:ID .795,Seat load 149@1.880,Open load 370@1.250,Rate 352, Locater 4777.We were talking about setting the installed height at 1.940?Acording to the specs 149@1.880.Do these springs need to be set up at 1.880?Specs on 4777 locater:Thickness .060,Id .630,Od 1.550,Spring Id .790.Specs on 4780 locater:Thickness .060,Id .630,Od 1.550,Spring Id .730.The Isky 940 locater Id .630,Od 1.540,Spring Id .740.My question on the locaters is the springs have a .795 Id and the comp recomended locater:4777 has a spring id of .790 so the fit should be tight.The 4780 has a .730 spring id will the spring move around?The isky 940 locater has a spring id of .740?I checked the spring seat id on my heads they are right at 1.550.Can you guys give me some feedback so I order the right parts.Thanks for all your help it is greatly appricated!

My understanding has been that the limiting factor with spring pressure on a hyd cam was due to the lifter itself.
Too much and the lifter can`t function correctly.

Wolfplace, what would be the upper limit on a hyd roller in your opinion on a BBC with a 2.25" valve,11/32 stem, titanium retainers ?.
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I have run 425-450 without issue with Isky retro-fit lifters in a small block.
Can't tell you what the stock GM lifter will take but I would not recommend more than 350-375 at most.

Mike,Gary I was going over the comp 928 spring and the locater info on the comp web site.I wanted to go over everything before I order.Specs on springs:ID .795,Seat load 149@1.880,Open load 370@1.250,Rate 352, Locater 4777.We were talking about setting the installed height at 1.940?Acording to the specs 149@1.880.Do (149@1.880.Do) these springs need to be set up at 1.880?Specs on 4777 locater:Thickness .060,Id .630,Od 1.550,Spring Id .790.Specs on 4780 locater:Thickness .060,Id .630,Od 1.550,Spring Id .730.The Isky 940 locater Id .630,Od 1.540,Spring Id .740.My question on the locaters is the springs have a .795 Id and the comp recomended locater:4777 has a spring id of .790 so the fit should be tight.The 4780 has a .730 spring id will the spring move around?The isky 940 locater has a spring id of .740?I checked the spring seat id on my heads they are right at 1.550.Can you guys give me some feedback so I order the right parts.Thanks for all your help it is greatly appricated!
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Bill,
If the 1.550 will fit for sure use the 4777. Measure the .015's you have to see.
Remove the .015's & install one .060 shim & the Comp locator.
Recheck with your new retainers to be sure they set up at the correct 1.88 or close to it (within .010 is fine)
Not all retainers are created equal so you will have to check the new assembly.
If the 1.550's won't fit & Gary is correct about the 4780's they will be fine at .730 & will go into the head easier.
You can also grind the 4777's down slightly on a belt sander if you wish to use them & they are too tight for the recess.

So,, removing the .015's will put you at about 2"s & the locator & shim should put you about 1.88,,
You can use the .015's to adjust any that need it & .030's with a .015 if you need a little less
Buy the locators, 16- .060 shims & 16- .030 shims & you will be set for about any scenario ;)
Don't forget a new set of seals,,,

Wolfplace..we`re using Comp hyd roller lifters, retro`s, just the standard ones not the R`s or Magnums.
Putting the motor back together now and while it`s on the motor stand and easy to do, I want to set the springs up right.

With your hands on experiance, do you see any problem setting them up with 150 lbs seat and around 400 lbs open ?

What`s the deal with Morel or Sherman hyd roller lifters?

How much are they and is it worth any RPM over a lifter like what we have now?
Is it advisable to run a limited travel lifter in a street/strip deal?

Sorry for all the questions but I need to sort this out soon.

Wolfplace..we`re using Comp hyd roller lifters, retro`s, just the standard ones not the R`s or Magnums.
Putting the motor back together now and while it`s on the motor stand and easy to do, I want to set the springs up right.

With your hands on experiance, do you see any problem setting them up with 150 lbs seat and around 400 lbs open ?

What`s the deal with Morel or Sherman hyd roller lifters?

How much are they and is it worth any RPM over a lifter like what we have now?
Is it advisable to run a limited travel lifter in a street/strip deal?

Sorry for all the questions but I need to sort this out soon.
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You would have to ask Comp as I don't use their lifters any longer.
Long story but suffice it to say the fifth dyno pull on a 496 did not put a smile on my face :angry:
To be fair, I have a number of engines runnin around with Comps standard hyd roller with a lot of miles with no problems but none are what I would call hi RPM :D

With Isky's lifter I would not have a problem running 400lbs
They do have a limited travel hyd that is not listed in the catalog but it is not cheap,,
You would probably be surprised at all the companies that are already buying & repackaging Morel roller lifters,,
I don't know what Joe is doing but my understanding is he is just shimming the lifter for limited travel & you would adjust it accordingly.
Best to call him direct & ask.
Don't know him to deal with but went to dinner with him & the AFR gang at the PRI show & he seems like a straight up guy Never heard anything but good about him.
Don't know the story on the Comp Magnum lifter except it is a limited travel deal that you adjust at about .002 preload as you would with any "limited travel" hyd.
I see no problem running limited travel lifters on the street.