So, we're going back to the moon [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: So, we're going back to the moon


72SSAbody
Sep 19th, 05, 7:32 PM
Somehow I just think this money could be better spent else where (Iraq, Katrina etc). But it's exciting none the less.

Last year I had a blast following Burt Rutan's X-Prize capturing (www.scaled.com) adventure. But I think it was the "under dog" mentality that really had me hooked.

Hopefully this won't be a waste of our hard earned (or unearned) tax money like the Star Wars programs of the '80's.

Thoughts?

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2005-09-15-moon-2018-mission_x.htm

NASA to unveil plans for 2018 moon mission
By Brian Berger, Space.com
WASHINGTON — NASA briefed senior White House officials Wednesday on its plan to spend $100 billion and the next 12 years building the spacecraft and rockets it needs to put humans back on the moon by 2018.

The U.S. space agency now expects to roll out its lunar exploration plan to key Congressional committees on Friday and to the broader public through a news conference on Monday, Washington sources tell Space.com.

President George W. Bush called in January 2004 for the United States to return to the moon by 2020 as the first major step in a broader space exploration vision aimed at extending the human presence throughout the solar system.

NASA has been working intensely since April on an exploration plan that entails building an 18-foot (5.5-meter) blunt body crew capsule and launchers built from major space shuttle components, including the main engines, solid rocket boosters and massive external fuel tanks.

That plan, called the Exploration Systems Architecture Study, was presented by NASA Administrator Mike Griffin, his space operations chief Bill Gerstenmaier and several other senior agency officials Wednesday afternoon to senior White House policy officials, including an advisor to Vice President Dick Cheney and the president's Deputy National Security Advisor J.D. Crouch.

NASA's plan, according to briefing charts obtained by Space.com, envisions beginning a sustained lunar exploration campaign in 2018 by landing four astronauts on the moon for a seven-day stay.

The expedition would begin, these charts show, by launching the lunar lander and Earth departure stage (essentially a giant propulsion module) on a heavy-lift launch vehicle that would be lifted into orbit by five space shuttle main engines and a pair of five-segment shuttle solid rocket boosters.

Once the Earth departure stage and lunar lander are safely in orbit, NASA would launch the Crew Exploration Vehicle capsule atop a new launcher built from a four-segment shuttle solid rocket booster and an upper stage powered by a single space shuttle main engine.

The CEV would then dock with the lunar lander and Earth departure stage and begin its several day journey to the moon.

NASA's plan envisions being able to land four-person human crews anywhere on the moon's surface and to eventually use the system to transport crew members to and from a lunar outpost that it would consider building on the lunar south pole, according to the charts, because of the regions elevated quantities of hydrogen and possibly water ice.

One of NASA's reasons for going back to the moon is to demonstrate that astronauts can essentially "live off the land" by using lunar resources to produce potable water, fuel and other valuable commodities. Such capabilities are considered extremely important to human expeditions to Mars which, because of the distances involved, would be much longer missions entailing a minimum of 500 days spent on the planet's surface.

NASA's Crew Exploration Vehicle is expected to cost $5.5 billion to develop, according to government and industry sources, and the Crew Launch Vehicle another $4.5 billion. The heavy-lift launcher, which would be capable of lofting 125 metric tons of payload, is expected to cost more than $5 billion but less than $10 billion to develop, according to these sources.

NASA's plan also calls for using the Crew Exploration Vehicle, equipped with as many as six seats, to transport astronauts to and from the international space station. An unmanned version of the Crew Exploration Vehicle could be used to deliver a limited amount of cargo to the space station.

NASA would like to field the Crew Exploration Vehicle by 2011, or within a year of when it plans to fly the space shuttle for the last time. Development of the heavy lift launcher, lunar lander and Earth departure stage would begin in 2011. By that time, according to NASA's charts, the space agency would expect to be spending $7 billion a year on its exploration efforts, a figure projected to grow to more than $15 billion a year by 2018, that date NASA has targeted for its first human lunar landing since Apollo 17 in 1972.

Senate approves $16.4 billion budget

The U.S. Senate approved a $200 million budget increase for NASA Thursday.

The NASA funding was approved as part of a $48.9 billion spending bill that also funds the Justice and Commerce Departments. Of that amount, NASA would receive $16.4 billion for 2006, about $60 million less than the agency requested but $200 million more than it had to spend this year.

The House of Representatives approved NASA's budget in July, providing $15 million more for NASA than it requested but the House bill also would require NASA to spend $110 million more on aeronautics research than it would like, or $952 million.

Similarly, the Senate bill would require NASA to spend $250 million in the year ahead preparing for a space shuttle mission to refurbish the Hubble Space Telescope. NASA requested only a fraction of that amount for the proposed mission.

Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.), a senior member of the Senate Appropriations Committee, issued a press release Thursday afternoon highlighting, among other things, the extra money added funds for the Hubble Space Telescope. Her press release also states that the $16.4 billion approved by the Senate "fully funds all major space science and earth science programs, the space shuttle, space station, the Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV) and the Moon-Mars initiative."

The Senate passed the spending bill by a vote of 91-4.

The House and Senate now must work out the differences between the two bills before sending the spending legislation to the White House for the president to sign into law.

1badss396
Sep 19th, 05, 7:53 PM
Jeezz with all the $$$ they spend here I would think they need to send the JUNKER space shuttle to James Hinshaw and get a PRO Restroration on the peice of JUNK!!! And as for NASA to unveil plans for 2018 moon mission That might be about the same time they get the shuttle program revamped, if their lucky...

IMHO I think NASA should go back to the old school rockets and do it right...
JMHO!!!
http://www.fantasticforum.com/prirate/whiteflag.gif

supersport396_2000
Sep 19th, 05, 7:58 PM
I think there is plenty of the moon yet undiscovered, many new feats for man, we think of the moon as so boring because we see it every night but it's still a planet (moon) that we know very little about. We need to get up there and setup a moon base so we can further explore our galaxy and universe. There are great things our there and we need to get off our a$$ and get moving, we are not alone, you would have to be ignorant to think we are in all the universe.

Those of you that look at the stars and only see twinkling lights and don't think a thing about it don't have the same drive as those that look to the stars in astonishment and amazement and think what those little dots are. Each one of those little dot's is a star just like our son only so far away that they look like little dots to us, That in itself amazes me at the scale of it. Think about space and the universe, we don't know if it has an end and if it does then what? the blue screen of death? :.)

I think this is a good demonstration of the scale and enormour size of just our solar system. Give it a try , it will amaze you.

http://www.noao.edu/education/peppercorn/pcmain.html

Bad Rat 414
Sep 19th, 05, 8:21 PM
I'm really glad to hear they are starting the program up. I just don't understand why it's going to take 15 years to do it. The original program only took a few years and with sixties technology.

saturnstyl
Sep 19th, 05, 8:25 PM
Me likey. Our country needs to do something cool once in a while. :D

Professor_SS
Sep 19th, 05, 8:45 PM
Good place to relocate the N.O. refugees. I think it would also make an excellent place for a prison. :thumbsup:

Seriously, we do gain so many side benefits from this type of project and the research that I'd just as soon see my tax money go there as to rebuilding a town below sea level that was 1/2 destroyed by it's own inhabitants.

deluxe
Sep 19th, 05, 10:09 PM
WOW, 100 billion. Gee, I can't think of anything better to do with that 100 billion!
I think someone's got their priorities mixed up.

Rich69RS/SS
Sep 19th, 05, 10:21 PM
What's on the Dark Side of the Moon ??

Byfield
Sep 19th, 05, 10:27 PM
WOW, 100 billion. Gee, I can't think of anything better to do with that 100 billion!
I think someone's got their priorities mixed up.

Better on the Moon than rebuilding a city thats just going to flood again

pop d top
Sep 19th, 05, 10:33 PM
I'm really glad to hear they are starting the program up. I just don't understand why it's going to take 15 years to do it. The original program only took a few years and with sixties technology.
Man! That's what I was thinking. Didn't Kennedy make that speech in like '62 or something when we could barely do an orbit? Then seven years later we had created all the necessary technology pretty much from scratch and were walking on the moon. Man, maybe we should turn some private sector guys lose on this little adventure.

Is it worth the money? I'm not sure. But I was waaaaaay into it when I was a kid. And for all of those people who feel the need to "make a statement", it's pretty hard to top "yeah, we've been to the moon...again." Fact is we don't have the lock on technology anymore, and if WE (Americans) don't go, someone else will. Hell, it'll likely be a multinational effort anyway. What I would hope is that science might have a shot at being a cool adventurous type of thing again, and our youth might be self-motivated to literally shoot for the stars.

BudW
Sep 19th, 05, 10:39 PM
The Moon will be a platform in years to come for missions into deep space,no doubt costly but a must i.m.h.o.

1badss396
Sep 19th, 05, 10:42 PM
Awww come on dont you all know that they never really went to the moon, it was a HOAX!!!!!! LOL, Now they really want to try and go to the moon just to prove they can spend wayyyyyyyyyy Toooooo much MONEY!!!!! and only to scrach the mission before they get 8 years into it! And it will have a cost atleast of 200 Billion before it gets 1 year from lift off!

JMHO!!

Derek69SS
Sep 19th, 05, 11:05 PM
I wish I could remember the exact figure, but I can't find it. I remember reading an article about how much money has been spent on NASA. It was a really big number. There was a much bigger number which was the ammount of money that America generated with the technology we gained from NASA.

Sure, they'll spend a lot of money, but that will create jobs, it will create technological advances, which will also create more jobs, and keep America ahead of all the countries that are currently catching up to us technologically.

This is a great investment into our future. :thumbsup:

novaderrik
Sep 19th, 05, 11:12 PM
NASA is the r&d agency of the federal government. they don't actually "build" stuff- they sub copntract all that out to other companies that employ THOUSANDS of highly skilled and very smart people.
NASA is, i think, the only federal agency that actually makes money for the economy by not only creating jobs for people, but also thru the technology that those people invent and find applications for.

Umass
Sep 19th, 05, 11:43 PM
TO THE MOON ALICE

haha just had to say that. this is a good investment in our countries technological future. good thing to know that there will be lots of jobs for all kinds of engineers in the imeadiate future. and think if i can get my a$$ graduated by 2018 i might have a job. the big picture here is that we need to go to Mars its the next viable place to be able to colonize when we have destroyed this planet. notice i said when not IF. going to the moon will be a good program to get our a$$es in gear and build a space craft that can make it to Mars.

Umass
Sep 19th, 05, 11:46 PM
Awww come on dont you all know that they never really went to the moon, it was a HOAX!!!!!! LOL, Now they really want to try and go to the moon just to prove they can spend wayyyyyyyyyy Toooooo much MONEY!!!!! and only to scrach the mission before they get 8 years into it! And it will have a cost atleast of 200 Billion before it gets 1 year from lift off!

JMHO!!


hasnt bush already spent 200 billion or so in the last few years attacking every country he hits with a dart on a big world map.

zeke67
Sep 20th, 05, 12:12 AM
Novaderrik is onto something here (and so is Umass, but in a different way). Other than war (generally a bad thing) nothing drives high paying domestic jobs like space exploration. We'd get all the technology eventually, but wars and space give us the stuff sooner and cheaper. Imagine that the smart bombs of Gulf War I are obsolete. Yet for our Chevelles we can still buy fuel injection systems that are based on OBD I systems. Space is tough because it's expensive, people die, and it take years to trickle down to the average guy (hands free headsets, velcro, teflon). War is tough because it's expensive, lots of people die, and it takes years to trickle down (GPS, laser pointers).

69malibu3speed
Sep 20th, 05, 6:51 AM
Better on the Moon than rebuilding a city thats just going to flood again

I agree with Byfield.:beers:

Bad Rat 414
Sep 20th, 05, 7:28 AM
What's on the Dark Side of the Moon ??
Pink Floyd, lives on the Dark Side of the Moon!!

Bad Rat 414
Sep 20th, 05, 7:30 AM
Awww come on dont you all know that they never really went to the moon, it was a HOAX!!!!!! LOL, Now they really want to try and go to the moon just to prove they can spend wayyyyyyyyyy Toooooo much MONEY!!!!! and only to scrach the mission before they get 8 years into it! And it will have a cost atleast of 200 Billion before it gets 1 year from lift off!

JMHO!!
I hope your joking, with that old crap. How do you think they got those reflective mirrors on the Moon? They shoot a laser off then on a regular basis for measurements.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/21jul_llr.htm

Thad
Sep 20th, 05, 7:43 AM
I think it’s a huge waste of money.
We've been to the moon, which was really more about beating the Russians there than exploration anyway.

Sometimes if you don't know what’s in the box, maybe you shouldn't open it.
You can never predict the total outcome of any situation, with absolute certainty.

People holler about global warming and the hole in the ozone layer and want to outlaw cars
but what does the tremendous amount of fuel a rocket burns do to the ozone?

If I thought this would get more Americans back to work I'd be all for it.
But to me it looks more like a ruse to take peoples minds of other more pressing issues.

Space is facinating, and there may eventually be some trickle down benefits.
But how signifcant are those benefits?

Byfield
Sep 20th, 05, 8:22 AM
But how signifcant are those benefits?

Image processing used in CAT Scanners and MRI technology in hospitals worldwide came from technology developed to computer-enhanced pictures of the Moon for the Apollo programs.

Kidney dialysis machines were developed as a result of a NASA-developed chemical process, and insulin pumps were based on technology used on the Mars Viking spacecraft.

Programmable Heart Pacemakers were first developed in the 1970s using NASA satellite electrical systems.

Fetal heart monitors were developed from technology originally used to measure airflow over aircraft wings.

Surgical probes used to treat brain tumors in children resulted from special lighting technology developed for plant growth experiments on Space Shuttle missions.

Infrared hand-held cameras used to observe blazing plumes from the Shuttle have helped firefighters point out hot spots in brush fires.

Satellite communications allow news organizations to provide live, on-the-spot broadcasting from anywhere in the world; families and businesses to stay in touch using cellphone networks; and the simple pleasures of satellite TV and radio, and the convenience of ATMs across the country and around the world.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040114-1.html

Thad
Sep 20th, 05, 8:44 AM
Thanks Kurt.

I've got a little more appriciation for the space program now.

I've long been a fan of NASA and the bravery and smarts required.

But I've wanted things for years and put them off for more immediate needs and more important priorities.
I've been wanting a TKO 5 speed for my 68 since they've been available, and
I've got more than enough in the kid's college funds, but its a priorities issue.

Some things are desires, but priorities should be needs, desires are to be pursued when your needs are met.

What new technologies will be developed in order to return to the moon ?

Derek69SS
Sep 20th, 05, 9:23 AM
What new technologies will be developed in order to return to the moon ?
Maybe none, but we'll never know if we don't try. I'm sure the advances Kurt mentioned they never thought would be a result of the space program when they first started.

Andy69
Sep 20th, 05, 9:26 AM
IT's a response to China's announcement last year that they are going to try to reach the moon. We have to go back and restake our claim. The moon is ours.

Byfield
Sep 20th, 05, 9:37 AM
IT's a response to China's announcement last year that they are going to try to reach the moon. We have to go back and restake our claim. The moon is ours.

We need to build something which clearly stakesout claim to the moon. Something decidedly American in nature

I propose a McDonalds, a Walmart, and a HUMMER dealership

Andy69
Sep 20th, 05, 9:52 AM
We need to build something which clearly stakesout claim to the moon. Something decidedly American in nature

I propose a McDonalds, a Walmart, and a HUMMER dealership

Don't forget public housing, so a bunch of people on public assistance can sit around and complain about it being too dark or too cold or not enough air or why can't the government plant some trees?

Georgia69
Sep 20th, 05, 10:53 AM
I don't know if it will provide jobs or not, and I don't know if it will provide new technology or not, but hey...at least it's cool to watch and read about. It's less a waste of my tax dollars than most of the other crap they blow it on.

NOZ34ME
Sep 20th, 05, 12:47 PM
I think there was a lot of technology that spun off from space exploration.

We, as a people though are easily bored. Anyone watch Apollo 13? Not many people were interested in that mission until they got into trouble. Amazing.

Frankly, I think the old technology of relays and early solid state components, triple redundancy, etc. worked great. Look what those guys accomplished! I'm not too sure about today's technology and implementation when "lowest bid" means the most. The way things are going, by 2018 that rocket will have 98% Chinese content.

Thad
Sep 20th, 05, 1:47 PM
The way things are going, by 2018 that rocket will have 98% Chinese content.

There you go.
Anybody want to ride to the moon on a chinese rocket ?

That will show the chinese we haven't gone soft.

"Hey China sell us the electronics, since we've outsourced all that stuff, so
we can show you we've still got our balls by beating you to the moon."

novaderrik
Sep 20th, 05, 4:02 PM
People holler about global warming and the hole in the ozone layer and want to outlaw cars
but what does the tremendous amount of fuel a rocket burns do to the ozone?


well, to answer your question- the only byproduct of the fuels used in the rockets is water, which the last time i checked, is not a greenhouse gas.
in a way, the shuttle is lofted into orbit by using the power of nuclear fusion. that big orange tank has a couple million pounds of liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen in it- that's why it needs to be insulated. all the shuttle engines do is inject twice as much hydrogen as oxygen into a chamber where there is a lot of heat and pressure, and the atoms fuse together to form water and release a LOT of extra energy- which is directed out thru the nozzles and pushes the shuttle up to an orbital altitude of 200 or so miles in about 8 minutes.

Dan72
Sep 22nd, 05, 10:03 AM
I wish I could remember the exact figure, but I can't find it. I remember reading an article about how much money has been spent on NASA. It was a really big number. There was a much bigger number which was the ammount of money that America generated with the technology we gained from NASA.

In "From The Earth To The Moon" HBO mini-series (highly recommended btw) Al Bean said the time spent on the surface of the moon cost about $1M / minute, I believe. In 1970ish dollars.

Thrilled to go back to the moon! Was a major fantasy of mine when I was a kid but somehow I doubt the honor will be mine...still, tremendously exciting.
well, to answer your question- the only byproduct of the fuels used in the rockets is water, which the last time i checked, is not a greenhouse gas.
in a way, the shuttle is lofted into orbit by using the power of nuclear fusion. that big orange tank has a couple million pounds of liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen in it- that's why it needs to be insulated. all the shuttle engines do is inject twice as much hydrogen as oxygen into a chamber where there is a lot of heat and pressure, and the atoms fuse together to form water and release a LOT of extra energy- which is directed out thru the nozzles and pushes the shuttle up to an orbital altitude of 200 or so miles in about 8 minutes.

Well, I agree with this, the hypergolic nature of the main engines is ultra-clean, ultra-powerful, and ultra-reliable. Very few parts to fail, no pumps, fuel components are pushed around with compressed helium and such. Not sure how clean burning the SRBs would be, though, they burn aluminum and aluminum perchlorate among other things Should produce a lot of aluminium oxide...dirty? I don't know, but it can't compare with the millions of conventional pollutant sources that run 24/7.

Originally Posted by Andy69
IT's a response to China's announcement last year that they are going to try to reach the moon. We have to go back and restake our claim. The moon is ours.

Originally Posted by Byfield
We need to build something which clearly stakesout claim to the moon. Something decidedly American in nature

I propose a McDonalds, a Walmart, and a HUMMER dealership


Don't forget public housing, so a bunch of people on public assistance can sit around and complain about it being too dark or too cold or not enough air or why can't the government plant some trees?



Heheh, well sounds good (or I should say: it sounds kind of likely). BTW above a certain altitude national territories don't apply. The moon is definately included. You guys won the original race although the Russians had you beat most of the way there but if the Chinese want to put some kind of factory up there to make Harbour Freight tools and stuff using child labour there isn't much anyone can do.

The US spends hundreds of billions a year anyway on stuff with no tangeble results, you'll never feel the difference. Exciting times!