I just started my body filler process.
I am using rage, this would be much easier for you if I could post pics but... I had an area in the rear quarter near the body line that I bumped out strait (I thought) about the area of baseball. I applied filler about 6" X 6" then blocked it down with a 12" dura block with 120.

now that Im into it.. I now have just 2 places with filler left about the size of a quarter.
does this mean I blocked too much. I seem to feel a high spot in between the "eyeglass" areas where filler if left.

1. can I bump down the high spot, 80 grit then re apply filler?

2. after the dx1791, how much will the K38 fill?
If you can feel it..it won't fill it? how many coats of K38?

3. using the shop rag and whole hand to find low and high spots is alot easier than it sounds!!!!

4. body work is very frustrating, I am a thermo king master tech and have great admiration for all who do body work with ease.

At diesel tech we used to call the body guys putty buddies or paint sniffers...(friendly diggin) Ive realized how easy something looks until you try it!


Chris

Sounds to me like the spot is still too high, keep going till its flat. If you go all the way to metal and its still too high, you will have to bump it down and re-apply the filler.
If i remember right the k-38 is a high solid gray 2k, film thickness is 2.5 mils per coat. Take a look at the tech sheet, "Apply a max of 2 coats keeping the dry film build below 5 mils." Also maintain a min of 2mils after sanding, lifting may occur during topcoat if too thin.
Take some advice, don't touch the car with shop rags, oils in them will transfer to the surface and cause major paint problems. It is easier to feel high/low spots but always use a clean rag.

Chris, you are indeed at a point that is very hard to learn. A photo would do "almost" no good at all, it is mostly feel at that point. I say "almost" because I can look at a filler job and many times tell you if it is smooth or not without touching it. But I can't tell you exactly what it needs to correct it without feeling it.

The filler should have a "transparent" look around the edges. If it does not have this transparent look, than chances are the metal right ajacent to that part of the filler is likly high. I would bet that on your repair the filler to the center of the "hourglass" doesn't have that "transparent" look while the other side of the filler on the outside does.

Feeling is one hard thing to teach. First let me say that you need to stand NEXT to the panel with your opposite of your "feeling" hand hip against the panel or the panel next to where you are feeling. Put your none feeling hand on the car and "run" your feeling hand over the work. DO NOT sand in front of the panel with your arm stretched out to feel the panel, this doesn't work.

Your hand should be flat (I personally have never used a rag or anything else). Some people have a real hard time to hold their hand flat. It will have the knuckles sticking out so try not to let that happen. The trick is to hold your hand flat on the panel and slide your hand over the area so any imperfections will "travel" across from your finger tips off the bottom near your wrist and back again as you slide it in the opposite direction. So you are sliding your hand with fingers together pointed. You should be sliding then the hand in the direction of your fingers, like they are pointing the way. The imperfections are felt because they "travel" along your hand.

Yes, it sounds as if your dent is now a high spot. Tap it down in the center, feeling it after every tap. It is MUCH easier to repair if you are a little low so don't worry about it, tap it low. Then re-fill the area and try your blocking again.

Blocking "just enough" is hard at first, we always want to block too much. Remember that "transparent" look at the edges of the filler I mentioned? Look for that when blocking. Feather out the edges as you are blocking. If you hit metal in the middle before that edge is feathered to that transparent look, your metal is still likly high in the middle.

thanks for help guys, do the "RAGS IN A BOX"
the white ones on a roll have oil in them???

I should have clarified Im sure you thought i was using the kind from the uniform co.

But now Im wondering if the others have oil also.
probably stupid question but better stupid now than stupid after...

thanks chris

Chris, those rags wont contain oil. But remember that your hand is full of oils that can ruin a paint job. Just use clean UNUSED towels.

What I do after EACH filler job and now am ready for primer, I blow off the filler and surrounding area with air. The I take a squirt bottle filled with PPG DX330. Its a surface cleaner that removes any light oils left behind. I squirt just enough to dampen the area or have a slight mist on it. Then with a clean DRY rag clean the area dry.

I allow roughly about 10 mins before I apply any paint product.

That K38 primer is a great one is fills excellent. Apply 3 coats of K38. Stick with the 38 dont use the K36, once you use the K38 you wont want to go back to K36.

Now if you are doing something that you want to have a show finish, I suffest to wait to sand the K38 for atleast a week. Primer likes to shrink and if you sand the primer the every next day you blcok it smooth later the primer shrinks down and you have a wavy panel. I did some testing on K36 last winter and noted a shrink rate of darn near 9% :eek:
So allow that primer to set up and cure shrink down before blocking if you desire and Show finish, if its your daily driver or whatever allow 12 hrs before blocking...Eric

I never sniffed the paint in tech school smile.gif I remember one guy would sweep up all the bondo dust then toss it up in air then light it on fire with his lighter. Used to do it everyday til he burnt his eyebrow off :eek: graemlins/sad.gif :rolleyes:

my local ppg seller (napa..weird) didnt have the 330 cleaner this time he gave me 440.. on the DX1791 tech sheet its not listed as a proper cleaner.

any ideas

chris

Eric, where did you go to tech school..I went to NITC in northwest Iowa, just a stab seeing you are from Iowa.

NITC, that would be emmitsberg right?
I went to NWIC?? I believe thats the name. Was in Sheldon Iowa just south of Souix falls SD. Then worked up in Souix falls for several years before moving back to Clarion

As for the DX440 I would skip it and wait for the 330. Even check for DX320. 320 is meant for removing very light oils like fingerprints. For example the car is taped up ready to go, some reason you decide to move a piece of tape. Once done moving the tape you wipe the area clean with 320 then paint. 330 well do just that also, but remove some heavier oils that 320 wont. We use 330 at work, dont use 440 or 320 but do use 103 I belive for plastic.

The reason why DX440 is NOT listed is because its a industrial strength cleaner used to remove road grime and undercoating not meant to be used as final paint prep cleaner. You might even lift the paint using 440 if its fresh paint!!

The DX440 is for use on "cured" like enamels and urethanes. And for BEFORE sanding. It is highly recommended that you get into the habit of doing the precleaning so you don't sand IN contaminants.

Chris, the very first paint I bought for my first paint job back in 1977 was PPG bought at the neighborhood NAPA store. Of the 77 NAPA stores I serviced two were DuPont jobbers, one was Sunbelt and 17 were Martin Senour.

Martin, maybe am reading it wrong graemlins/clonk.gif or its past my bedtime, but the 440 should only be used to clean UNSANDED painted parts prior to sanding. It shouldnt be used to clean sanding sludge before filler or paint as its just to harsh.

Its usage is to remove road grime before you start any type of body work.
Who knows its darn near midnight am wide awake due to some rotten roast beef from Hardee's graemlins/hurray.gif ...Eric

Eric, I am not saying that it is ONLY for pre-sanding. But it is recommended for that use. And if you think about it, it is very strong. If you used it before, than you wouldn't need it later. Unless of course some dimwit ate a bacon cheese burger and frys and then lubed his tools with silicone, THEN I would suggest using it again smile.gif

But under normal circumstances if you pre-cleaned it (now, mind you, I never do this my self unless I see a reason to) and then sanded, you will eleminate a lot of trouble.

Then use the milder cleaners after.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>Basics of “surface cleaners”

They are commonly called “Wax and Grease Removers” but many manufactures have changed the name to “Surface Cleaners” or similar names. I think the biggest reason is because the name “Wax and grease remover” implies that they will actually clean all of the wax and grease off the surface. The other reason for a name change is the simple point that wax and grease are only a few of the contaminants that you battle against while painting.

The basic idea behind these cleaners is simple, they are designed to lift the contaminant up off the surface long enough for you to wipe it away. The surface MUST stay wet and HOLD those contaminants up in the cleaner for you to wipe off with a clean/dry rag. That is mistake most make, they let it dry and the contaminant ends up laying right back on the surface. First of all let’s clear up a few things; Lacquer thinner, acetone, MEK, and enamel or urethane reducers are NOT surface cleaners. Lacquer thinner evaporates too fast and doesn’t give you time to wipe it off wet. It is also much to strong a solvent for most cleaning and can get under the edges of sand thrus or soften substrates. Enamel and urethane reducers often have resins and other components in them that are designed to be added to the product they were INTENDED to be used with. To put it in a nutshell, buy and use the products recommended by the manufacture of the paint SYSTEM you are using. A gallon of the proper surface cleaner runs about twenty or twenty five dollars it is money well spent. The gallon will last you through many projects, a few cars even. The pint of paint or clear to do one small redo will cost more than that.

I checked on our paint dept. at work to see how much surface cleaner they go through. We do between 100 and 150 cars a month and purchase three to five gallons of surface cleaner. We purchase about $12,000 a month in paint materials and only about one hundred bucks of that is surface cleaner. So that being said, at that rate a gallon should last a home hobbyist a lifetime, so buy the right product for the job.

One reason we use so little is how we use it. Here in the San Francisco bay area with strict VOC rules we are not allowed to pour the surface cleaner out onto a rag. We have to spray it out of a spray bottle. Like most things we are forced to do, we resist. But it has turned out to be a great way to use this product. You should give it a try, it works real well. You spray the panel and then wipe it off.

I like to have lots of clean rags when I am doing paint work. Clean rags are one of the most important item you can have in a shop. In the last few years this has gotten much easier to do. I remember having a can of paint covered rags in the corner, thinking I could wash them. I would wash them and they would be clean but the dried paint on them would be hard and make the rags unusable. Then of course you don’t want to wash them in your home washer anyway, unless you want your wife’s bra to smell like enamel reducer.
Now a days the disposable rag is king. You can get a box of “rags” for a pretty fair price and just throw them way when done. You always have nice clean rags. They are not “just” paper towels, so don’t think that the “Mr. Cleanup” paper towels you get at the supermarket are going to do the job. Go to your paint store and get the real thing. There are many different kinds, from cheap wipes similar to your kitchen “paper towels” to lint free towels for final wiping. TORX products are available at NAPA auto parts and is one source for these towels. Again, yes they cost more money than washing rags or your wife’s “Mr. Cleanup” paper towels but what kind of money are you spending on your paint products?

So let’s go over exactly how you use it. As mentioned earlier, you need to keep it wet prior to wiping it off. The best way to do this is keeping your cleaning area down to a manageable size. I usually wipe no more than a half a panel at a time. About six square feet is all you can do without problems of it drying to fast, and even then you have to keep moving pretty fast. You just don’t want it to dry, if you do, you have wasted your time. You haven’t done what you intended to do, at all. It was not even close, you wasted your time.

When should you wipe the surface?
Well first of all, BEFORE you sand. If you don’t wipe the surface before you sand you will not sand off the contaminants, you will sand them INTO the surface. So a good cleaning before sanding is recommended. If the surface is really dirty, clean it a few times changing to clean rags every time. Remember, you want to wipe off the contaminants, so if you use the same rags on the subsequent wipes you can leave the contaminants you wiped off on the first wipe!

Wiping before applying primer or paint of course is also recommended. Broom and/or blow off the sanding dust (I have bench brooms for wood working that are fine bristled and work great). Be sure to use the proper cleaner and wipe it dry really well. Then be sure that any remainder has flashed off (evaporated) before applying your primer or paint. You don’t want any of the cleaner to be trapped under your primer or paint!


Have a few rags ready to go folded in fourths. Put the rag over the opening on the can of surface cleaner and give the can a “slosh” getting the rag wet, not too wet but wet. You don’t need to have it dripping all over the floor, but it should be good and wet. Get in the habit of wiping things down like you are painting it. Use a back and forth pattern with an over lap being sure to wet EVERY square inch. The entire area should be shiny wet, then switch to a clean dry rag and wipe it dry using the same “get every inch” procedure. If you feel it dried before you could get it off, repeat the cleaning. As a painter I worked under many years ago would make me repeat like a private in boot camp “YOU CAN NEVER GET A CAR TOO CLEAN, SIR”

Because the term “wax and grease remover” is thrown around so much little is said about the how different they can be. Until I had became a paint rep I didn’t even know there were different kinds. After painting for twenty years I had always just grabbed the “wax and grease remover” without a thought as to what I was using it on. When I bought a cleaner and found it worked different I just attributed it to the brand and not the fact that it was just not the type of cleaner I had been using.

Just like solvents you add to your paint products there are different “temps” cleaners. Not that they are to be used in different temp shops but that they flash faster or slower than another. This is important in that you don’t need a super slow flashing cleaner on your final wipe. Nor do you need a super fast one when you are doing your first wipe down of a greasy car prior to sanding.

There are also different “strengths” of cleaners. Some are designed for cleaning soft substrates like lacquer while others are much more harsh for cleaning enamel substrates. Most all of them “can” be used at most times but, there are some that are better than others for particular circumstances.

There are four common groups. I don’t have every cleaner listed here but this will give you a good idea at what is available.

1. A very slow evaporating cleaner. It is also very weak, and actually only mineral spirits or mostly mineral spirits. This does NOT mean you can go to the hardware store and buy their mineral spirits, for goodness sakes just but the high grade product from the paint manufacture. This is the type of cleaner is the most common found in the shop. It is a good cleaner because it is weak and will not attack any soft substrates like lacquer, uncured enamels, etc. But it will not clean a lot of strong contaminants like vinyl treatments. When you have a reason to believe there is a particularly bad contaminant you may need to go to a stronger cleaner. It is very slow evaporating so you have to be sure it is fully evaporated after wiping before you apply any paint product over it. Specifically those nooks and crannies, be sure it is good and gone before you apply any paint product. It gives you lots of time to wipe it off because it evaporates so slow.

Examples are:
Sherwin Williams R1K213, Martin Senour 6387, PPG DX330, DuPont 3939S, BASF 901.


2. This cleaner is fast and strong. It is commonly recommended as a “pre-cleaner” before sanding. It will attack some soft substrates like lacquer and uncured enamel but if you are using it before sanding you can correct that. It will clean the stronger contaminants like tar and unseen ones like silicone vinyl protectants.

Examples are:
Sherwin Williams R7K156, Martin Senour 6383, PPG DX440, DuPont 3919S, BASF 900.

3. This cleaner is a weak solvent with fast evaporation and is usually used just prior to painting, while the car is in the booth. It is very fast evaporating and is necessary in the production shop where you don’t have the time to wait for a cleaner like #1 to evaporate. It is perfect for this use, just getting those finger prints and dust residue off.

Examples are:
Sherwin Williams R7K158, Martin Senour 6384, PPG DX30, DuPont 3901S, BASF 901.

4. Because of VOC rules a waterborne solvent cleaner was developed. It is not needed in most of the country but it has been found to have an interesting use there. Because it has water in it (water and alcohol molecules share a common atom so they are a “link” between the water and enamel based solvents) it actually helps with static electricity. Washing the car with water is the best, but that can’t always be done.
It is also the recommended surface cleaner for plastic parts with many paint systems.

Examples are:
Sherwin Williams W4K157, Martin Senour 6388, PPG DX380, DuPont 3909 or 3949, BASF 905.

If you find that you have been using the “wrong” cleaner, don’t sweat it, it is not THAT critical. As I said, there are cleaners that work better than others in certain circumstances but few would be “wrong”.

I know of one particular mistake I made for many years. I was using one from the number 1 example. I used it all the time as I still do. The problem was I was using it wrong. Back in the days of lacquer primers and paint I had a few problems that I just couldn’t figure out, till years later that is. I would see a lacquer paint job I did a year or so later and there would be water spots on it, coming from under or within the paint. It looked just like you would have when you dry a car in the sun and the water would dry in the patterns that the wet towel left. I always knew it was the surface cleaner but just couldn’t figure out why it would happen. I now know that the cleaner was just too slow evaporating and some stayed on the surface to be buried under the paint. The lacquer primer soaked it up and held it. If I had waited a little while longer before painting or used one from the number 3 example I wouldn’t have had a problem.

Hopefully this info will help you choose the best cleaner for the job. But most off all, I hope it puts to rest all the “old husbands tales” of using thinner or enamel reducers as cleaners.

http://members.aol.com/goodstuff53/waxandgreasegraffic.jpg

Eric, yes same school, went there in '90-'92
maybe same time or maybe I am very old...

I used DX440 under my filler "experiment" I guess I will remove it and start over


chris