I pulled my intake this morning after much debate, and after doing so I'm glad I did. I think it's safe to say I have found the source of my oil consumtion. There is some oil getting in through the PCV, but that isn't the real problem. Apparently I have some serious gaps at the bottom of the intake runners.
Here's some photos (dial up warning!). You can see the oil sitting around the bottom edge of the intake ports, and they are totally soaked with oil inside when I stuck my finger in there. some of the valves are pretty gunked up. :(
http://www.69boo307.com/images/DSCN1416.JPG
http://www.69boo307.com/images/DSCN1417.JPG
http://www.69boo307.com/images/DSCN1418.JPG

Not sure how to fix this.. Do I just need to find an extra thick gasket? Do I need the intake milled? Also, I put the little cork strips on the ends of the manifold. I could leave those out and just use rtv to seal the ends when I re-install.

Is there something safe like a fuel additive that I can use to try and clean up the valves a bit, once I get it back together? There's only about 1000 miles on the engine, so hopefully just some fuel system cleaner would help clean things back up once the oil leaks are gone.

suggestions?

Good gaskets, DO NOT USE THE END gaskets, just rtv. I use high temp rtv lightly around the ports(you don't want it squeezing into the intake port) and water passages when I swap intakes, some don't like to use sealer, but I've always used it, just a precaution that I like to use. If you purchase a used intake manifold, there is no way for sure to know if they were milled or not. I'd try the rtv on the ends around the ports and see what happens. The end gaskets could keep the intake from settling down and sealing around the ports.

I agree with Bob about RTV on the end gaskets,however I have never used it around the ports (not that it wouldn't work).RTV doesn't typically react well with gas.You can try a little 'high tack' on the gasket but I think you should check some measurements because it looks like a 'printo-seal' Fel-Pro gasket they already have a seal aroung the ports...Check to make sure the intake is true.As Bob said make sure it was not milled or maybe warped.

If your block has been decked, and the heads cut too, that's most likely the cause for the misalignment. A good way to tell is set the intake back on with the gaskets. Now eyeball the bolt holes in both sides. Chances are, they're low in the holes, as the intake's sitting high. If so, remove the gaskets, set it back on, and look again. If they're centered, I'd remove about as much from each side of the intake face as the thickness of the gaskets. On my 455 Pontiac in the 'bird, I had to mill a brand new Performer intake about .050" to fit.

Thats excactly what my gasket looked like when I pulled my intake off,my heads and deck have been milled and so was the intake to match,but obviously not enough or too much. I have tried everthing different gaskets,sealer(rtv) spray tack,everthing what they suggested here etc.even tried different manifold,I hope you have better luck than I cause I still have not fixed it...will try again this winter.

Good Luck

Not related to your problem but you have over-torqued your vavlve covers as seen in the first picture. That can cause an external oil leak.

I thought I mentioned the intake being not true (warped) in another post. I'd get another intake. My .02

would this cause the intake valves to get carboned up? I got a pair of heads with couple of valves carboned up. but only a couple of the intakes, Jim

the pic of the manifold is interesting, looks like there was a good seal across the bottom of the ports. Is that what everybody else sees? Did you have and trouble getting the intake bolts in? usually if the manifold is off it's real hard to get bolts in one side or both.

is that first shot the right front or left rear of the engine? looks like the valve covers are on backwards anyway. That filler cap should be at the left front of the engine. Drivers side front, that is.

Is there oil in the intake ports in the manifold? if they're clean it implies the oil is entering at the manifold gasket. If they're oily it implies you are sucking oil up the PCV.

I never even knew valve covers have a side to them? Does it actually matter which side they're on? I'm pretty sure my filler cap is in the rear driver's, but they're aftermarket. Doesn't leak a drop.

I never even knew valve covers have a side to them? Does it actually matter which side they're on? I'm pretty sure my filler cap is in the rear driver's, but they're aftermarket. Doesn't leak a drop.
I dont see why it would matter, might be a little easier to put oil in if the filler cap is up front, though.

crud, I need to get more sleep. That oil filler cap correctly goes on the rear of the drivers side. The PCV goes in front on the drivers side and the breather tube to the air filter housing goes rear right.

There is definitely a right and wrong way to install stock valve covers. if you look at them from the end you'll see that they're not symmetrical, one side goes up at a 90* angle from the flange and the other side is angled in towards the top. the right angled side goes to the top, against the intake manifold. if you put it on backwards the rocker arms will probably rub on the inside of the cover, eventually it will crack or rub through.

Were any of the intake manifold bolts loose on dissasembly?

Did you try to retorque?

To check your intake fit, lay the manifold on the engine without gaskets and just install the bolts on one side. Measure the gap on the other side at all four corners and visa versa.

If you are running all stock cast iron stuff unported, I would be using stock replacement Victor gaskets in a heart beat.

I use GM top engine cleaner or Sea Foam. I believe it's the same stuff.

Wow, alot of replies! thanks guys!
I know the valve covers look a little warped in the picture, but the are installed correctly (same way they came on the original engine), and I only torqued the bolts to 12 ft/lbs. I havn't had a problem with any leaks from them, knock on wood.

Looking at the gaskets and the print on the manifold, it does look like it was sealing ok, all the way around. I had no problems at all with the manifold bolts when I first installed it.
That begs the question of how all that oil got there, then. The intake runners on the manifold are a little oily. The ones on the front driver side, closest to the carb pcv inlet, are totally blackened. I knew the PCV was part of the problem, but I can't believe it was consuming ALL the oil.
An engine builder on one of my local boards thinks it's just the PCV, he said it could indeed suck up a quart every 150-200 miles on a high compression engine. His idea was to get one of these Moroso pcv grommets with a built in baffle. I have the baffles removed from the valve covers so I can fit them over the 1.6 roller rockers.
Tom, the engine photos are both of the driver's side head. The oil is worse there than on the passenger side.
Hilljack, they are Dart heads, not stock. The fel-pros I have on there were the ones recommended by Dart.

I'm going to clean it all up tonight and try to check the clearances with the manifold. Maybe I just need to get that pcv grommet, and re-install the manifold, being extra careful with torquing it down. I suppose it's possible I just didn't torque it down right.

>>>I have the baffles removed from the valve covers so I can fit them over the 1.6 roller rockers.

And there you have it. One of the rocker arms is probably squirting oil directly into the PCV. A well-known forty year old mistake that guys are still making. :)

You need to check into the valve cover bolt load spreaders available at most speed shops. They're like the little steel grommets you have now but thicker and about 3" long. You'll need longer bolts. That torque spec is actually 3lb/ft and doesn't apply much when you've got stacked gaskets.

not sure if your rocker studs go through to the ports or not, but if they do(intakes) they need to be sealed

Welp, I got it all buttoned back up today, finally got it fired up after putting the distributor in wrong the first time. Got the timing set back to where it was.

Now it runs like total crap and smokes like it's burning more oil than gas. It is actually pulling more vaccum at idle now that it was, but the engine seems totally FUBAR now. I have no idea what it could be.

Anyone want to buy a chevelle?

Reminds me of a valve timing issue. ??? But it also sounds like something else than that, since you're burning more oil. Maybe the timing isn't an issue, probably not. Are the valves set right?

Curious to hear other's opinions.

not sure if your rocker studs go through to the ports or not, but if they do(intakes) they need to be sealed
If the Dart heads are similar to World heads the rocker stud holes go straight through to the port.After seeing those holes I made sure I used a lot of permatex teflon sealer on the studs to seal them.

The heads were assembled by the best machine shop in these parts, I know they were done right. I don't know how the valve timing or lash could have changed, all I did was re-install the intake.

I put the distributor in 180 degrees out like an idiot, and got a nasty backfire. I'm wondering if it didn't crack some piston rings or bust something. I ran it about 10 minutes total, and the smoking got progressively worse until I just shut it down. I think the whole thing's FUBAR. I'm so disgusted with it right now, I have so much time and money in it, and it's just a pile of junk right now. I've never got this engine to really behave right since I first fired it up early in the summer.

well something could be internally ruined, but don't depend on the machine shop, check a intake stud

What did you do?

I had the exact same problem as you and my gaskets looked identical to yours. I had to retorque my intake bolts several times before it went away.

Defiantly check the studs!

Did you do the feeler gauge check?

Looking at your intake ports I think a stock type gasket would clear and seal much better. It's going to take awhile to burn the oil out, I use GM top end engine cleaner.

Reminds me of a valve timing issue. ??? But it also sounds like something else than that, since you're burning more oil. Maybe the timing isn't an issue, probably not. Are the valves set right?

Curious to hear other's opinions.

malibu man, how do you figure a valve timing issue can cause oil in the intake????

Just curious!

Thanks!

What did you do?

I had the exact same problem as you and my gaskets looked identical to yours. I had to retorque my intake bolts several times before it went away.

Defiantly check the studs!

Did you do the feeler gauge check?

Looking at your intake ports I think a stock type gasket would clear and seal much better. It's going to take awhile to burn the oil out, I use GM top end engine cleaner.


I have no idea what I did. I just re-installed the intake with new gaskets. The gaskets I'm using are the ones recommended by Dart for those heads.
As far as I could tell with my feeler guages, there was no more than .004" difference in the gap between the top and bottom of the mating surfaces.

The first try, I had the distributor 180 degrees out, and got a nasty backfire. I'm wondering if it didn't crack some piston rings or something. I don't think this smoke is just from burning off oil residue that was stuck in the intake and ports, the smoke is just belching out, it's 100 times worse than before.

It's going to take awhile to burn the oil out, I use GM top end engine cleaner.


Just curious as to how long you think it would take to burn all the engine oil out of intake runners and cylinders and how well does the GM engine cleaner work in cleaning the gunk and oil off the valves?

Thanks

Did you take care of the PCV problem? Possibly the plugs are oil fouled and need to be changed? Put a plug wire on the wrong plug? Go back through and double check everything. Holley carb? Backfire can blow out the power valve. Block off the hose to the PCV and see what happens.

Did you take care of the PCV problem? Possibly the plugs are oil fouled and need to be changed? Put a plug wire on the wrong plug? Go back through and double check everything. Holley carb? Backfire can blow out the power valve. Block off the hose to the PCV and see what happens.

I modified my stock valve cover to use a Moroso PCV grommet with the built in baffle (just has the little slit in the bottom of it). I checked the pcv valve and hose after I shut it off saturday and it was clean, no oil. I think that issue will be resolved with the baffled grommet.

I figure either I have the intake totally seated wrong after re-installing it, or the backfire busted something in the bottom end. I don't see any other way that much oil could get in, I mean it looks like I opened a couple of smoke grenades in the driveway after a few minutes of running it. I made a run around the block thinking it was just residue burning off... well it smoked even worse when I got back. Smoke appears to be pouring out of the breather cap on the passenger side as well. At first I thought it was oil on the headers burning, but I'm fairly certain it was coming out of the breather cap.

It's a Q-jet, not a holley. I don't think the carb got damaged, I didn't see flames, just a loud metallic 'pop' and lots of smoke.

malibu man, how do you figure a valve timing issue can cause oil in the intake????

Just curious!

Thanks!

I really didn't, but running like crap (and pulling more vacuum maybe even) just made me think of past experiences that i've had messing with valve timing. Like I said, "also sounds like something else than that because you're burning oil". I wasn't saying that what I said caused his initial problem, but something could have happened after that or besides that. A bit of oil in the intake shouldn't cause the engine to run like crap, unless there's enough of an amount to foul the plugs (which is probably also happening). I suppose i'll just sit back and listen next time. :rolleyes:

If you have a bunch of oil vapor coming through the breather then you are preasurizing the crank case.I suppose there are a couple of reasons for that most likely broken ring or broken piston.These are two things you may wanna check.As far as oil consumption goes you need to RULE OUT the PCV.Take it out plug the vacuum.Try that just to be double sure you are not sucking anything through there.Check your plugs...Are they ALL fouled with oil?If they are then you are still sucking oil into the intake is there oil in the intake? If not then narrow it down to specific cyliders.Then do a compression test or preferably a leakdown test on the bad ones.And as already mentioned double check the rocker studs make sure they are sealed.Even the #1 machine shop can have 1 bad day.

Good luck!

I really didn't, but running like crap (and pulling more vacuum maybe even) just made me think of past experiences that i've had messing with valve timing. Like I said, "also sounds like something else than that because you're burning oil". I wasn't saying that what I said caused his initial problem, but something could have happened after that or besides that. A bit of oil in the intake shouldn't cause the engine to run like crap, unless there's enough of an amount to foul the plugs (which is probably also happening). I suppose i'll just sit back and listen next time. :rolleyes:

Just thought you might have experienced some type of reversion problem in the past....that's all!:) I thought I did once and was hoping you might be able to validate that.

Yeah, if you have the baffles removed then your PCV could easily be sucking oil out. When you removed your intake it probably dripped down the gasket from inside the intake.

Daniel

They're all bad, but they looked like this before the intake re-install. In fact I've been through 3 sets of plugs and they all came out pretty much like this.
#5 however is considerably worse than the others, stuff is just caked on it.
http://www.69boo307.com/images/plugs1to4.JPG
http://www.69boo307.com/images/plugs5to8.JPG

Actually, i'm having that problem right now on my tractor hilljack. :) It's a fuel issue though. The carbs running rich (float is set too high) and it hiccups and trys to kill then, and it trys to backfire the fuel out the intake gasket. Just went through the carb hoping that the gasket was just not sealing, and thought I had fixed it, until I came back a couple hrs later and the carb was wet down the side. I thought the smoke was maybe just from the rings, but now I believe it is truly running rich. Runs best with the air screw on the throat all the way in, and the load mixture cranked out aways. It's an updraft carb.

Those plugs look like mine do on the left head. I for sure have the rear valley gasket leaking a bit of oil, if that would matter. My PCV is on the right side, and I have a breather in the left VC hole.

I had a similar problem a few years back when I built a 350 with aluminum heads from a 1985/86 Corvette. The car actually looked like a mosquito fogger at idle, it smoked so much. It turned out to be an intake sealing problem. I eventually elongated the bolt holes in the manifold to help line up with the heads, and used RTV in place of the end gaskets. This solved my problem. I would also do a compression check if I were you, as stated above it sounds like you might be pressurizing the crankcase.

Once upon a time, my dad took a set of plugs that looked like that, burned the tip/strap/etc, on the stove and then used a wire brush to clean them, hit them with some compressed air and they worked a whole lot better.

I would disconnect the PCV, just to rule it out completely. After your sure the problem is fixed, hook it back up.

Stock type gaskets and Silicone for end seals.

Just curious as to how long you think it would take to burn all the engine oil out of intake runners and cylinders and how well does the GM engine cleaner work in cleaning the gunk and oil off the valves?

Thanks

It's about the only additive you can pour into your engine that actually works! It smokes like crazy so make sure the neighbors are up for it and be well ventilated.

I've always had good luck with it removing carbon off valves and pistons. That's what it's designed for.

How long it takes to clear out? I guess it depends how much oil you have in the intake, valves, etc........but I would think a couple weeks at least.