I have read several posts where guys are saying use the bronze pilot bushing and not the roller, just curious why? When I bought my clutch set-up the Hays tech guy recommended the roller. The crank has a bronze in it now that's in good shape, I can leave or switch to the roller. I was just curious whey no one recommends the roller.

The car is a 67 Camaro with a 350, should make around 400HP/375 torque with an M21 muncie.

Thanks for any input.
Roy

Well, there's nothing to go wrong with the bronze bushing. No rollers that need grease, no needles to break, rust or fall out. The bronze bushings do go egg shaped, but that takes 100,000 miles or so. About half of the roller pilots I see are bad the first time the trans comes out of the car.

When the roller bearings go bad, odds are they will chew up the input shaft as well. We have one in our 455 Lemans and are keeping our fingers crossed. If the bearing is "properly" installed and lubricated, it should last a long time. Proper installation is the key. Putting the trans in neutral and letting out the clutch at the stop lights also cuts down on wear and tear on the bearing. It's just a normal part of driving for us. We've put over 200K miles on three different vehicles and never had a throw out bearing problem.

The roller bearings work fine. I put one in my 64 C10 truck with straight-6 and 3-speed almost 10 years ago. 40,000 street miles and lord knows how many gear shifts later, it still works fine. GM originally developed the roller pilot bearing for use in diesels, which are designed to last a long time. Ask the guys who say using the roller is stupid if they've ever used one. If they have used a roller and it failed, ask them how they installed it.

The roller bearings work fine. I put one in my 64 C10 truck with straight-6 and 3-speed almost 10 years ago. 40,000 street miles and lord knows how many gear shifts later, it still works fine. GM originally developed the roller pilot bearing for use in diesels, which are designed to last a long time. Ask the guys who say using the roller is stupid if they've ever used one. If they have used a roller and it failed, ask them how they installed it.

Well this guy used one in the race car and wasted the input shaft. Yep, I can see why the last in diesels, no rpm. My diesel spends most of the time around 1500 rpm, not 7500 plus.

I won't warranty a trans of mine that uses a roller pilot bearing.

So the original advice posted earlier is sound, use what GM put in millions of CARS and had zero problems with.

prob most people beat rather than press the pilot bushing/bearing in, and the bearing isnt as forgiving as the bushings when this is done, which can lead to their premature failure

Well this guy used one in the race car and wasted the input shaft. Yep, I can see why the last in diesels, no rpm. My diesel spends most of the time around 1500 rpm, not 7500 plus.

I won't warranty a trans of mine that uses a roller pilot bearing.

So the original advice posted earlier is sound, use what GM put in millions of CARS and had zero problems with.

So the answer to my question is no, you have never used one? How do you know the bearing caused the racer's problem? Maybe the bellhousing wasn't properly indexed to the block, and a bronze bushing would have had the same failure? What type of pilot bearing does GM currently use in manual transmission applications, like the Corvette? If it's a roller (and I'm betting it is) are they failing, or is it safe to say that GM has the same track record of zero failure with millions of roller bearings IN CARS as it does with the bronze bushing?

When I pulled my Muncie the first time because of the noisy front bearing the Roller pilot bearing had come apart, not much left of it. No, I dont know why it came apart but I do know it came apart. I replaced it with a bronze bushing.

Ron

Most of the roller bearing pilot bushings were designed for lower rpm diesel engines,not high revving gasoline applications. We tried the roller bearing units in some LT5 cammer motors and had problems. The fluted bronze bushings are probably the best way to go.

I had put a roller pilot bearing a few years back and when i was doing my 5-speed swap,as soon as i pulled out my original 4-speed the bearing came out in peices and mind you it was only in my crank for maybe a year,so i went back to the bronze bushing,i`ll never put another roller again.

Thanks

The roller bearings work fine. I put one in my 64 C10 truck with straight-6 and 3-speed almost 10 years ago. 40,000 street miles and lord knows how many gear shifts later, it still works fine. GM originally developed the roller pilot bearing for use in diesels, which are designed to last a long time. Ask the guys who say using the roller is stupid if they've ever used one. If they have used a roller and it failed, ask them how they installed it.

The racer was me, the housing was indexed and the dog gave it up.

I don't know how hard the input is but I know the rollers are harder than my head. So if you follow that line of thinking, GM engineers had the input dialed in for a soft bronze bushing.

If the newer corvette uses a roller bearing I bet the input has been harden with that in mind.

You can use whatever you like, but it's the tried and true bronze bushing for what, three or four bucks??

Winner and still champion, the bronze pilot bushing!!!!

We probably regrind 10 flywheels each week, most of them from late model FWD cars. Almost all of them have the roller pilot bearing pressed into the center of the flywheel, and 99% are rusted pieces of scrap metal when we see them.

I will also subscribe to the KISS method and continue using the bronze bushing.

After working at a GM dealership for awhile, I'll stay with the bronze bushing too....

The roller is all you can buy from GM anymore also.

NAPA, BRGB656 for $2.99 each.

How many would you like????

You can not use a roller bearing on a input designed for a bronze bushing, the heat treating or hardness is not enough to stand up to the rollers.

But what do I know, I'm not a engineer. Some things just make sense and this is one of them.

We will only use the bronze bushing on a clutch replacement. The "rockwell hardness" needs to be at least 57 to use a roller. Why chance it?!

Regards, Jody

I tried a roller once about 20 years ago, and it came apart in under 10k miles.

Jerico makes a roller BALL bearing design but I believe it sits flush with the end of the crank, might not clear the Muncie or T-10?

Thanks for all of the inputs, seems like the bronze bushing is the way to go! I appreciate it,
Roy

I work at a transmission shop and we do about 10 clutch jobs a month on average. I have noted that when we receive our Luk clutches (the ONLY ones that we will install), they always come with both a bushing and a roller bearing.. I guess they don't want to be caught up in the middle of this type of debate so they simply send both as part of the kit.

For the record, we always use the roller bearing and have never had one come back. Yes we warranty our work and would have to cover it at our expense if they did come back. If we thought there was a problem with the rollers, I assure you we would have seen it by now, and we would not be using them as they would be costing us money on the come-back side.

In regards to input shaft problems, I have seen quite a few of them, and most were directly related to the input shaft bearing/retainer/support, or cluster gear issues. In those cases it did not matter which type of bearing was in place, the damage was done to the shaft where it rides in the pilot.
I have personally seen where the soft bronze bushing has chewed up the tip of the input shaft. I know you might think it is not possible, but I have seen it first hand.

If you are seeing roller bearings come apart at less than 100,000 miles, my guess would be you have other issues that may have caused the bearing to fail. Meaning the bearing was not your problem but simply a symptom of the real issue.

This is really one of those personal choice type things, kind of like hair-spray, or hair-gel. You are either one or the other.. I think properly installed EITHER one will suit your needs and you should not experience any type of failure.

I work at a transmission shop and we do about 10 clutch jobs a month on average. I have noted that when we receive our Luk clutches (the ONLY ones that we will install), they always come with both a bushing and a roller bearing.. I guess they don't want to be caught up in the middle of this type of debate so they simply send both as part of the kit.

For the record, we always use the roller bearing and have never had one come back. Yes we warranty our work and would have to cover it at our expense if they did come back. If we thought there was a problem with the rollers, I assure you we would have seen it by now, and we would not be using them as they would be costing us money on the come-back side.

In regards to input shaft problems, I have seen quite a few of them, and most were directly related to the input shaft bearing/retainer/support, or cluster gear issues. In those cases it did not matter which type of bearing was in place, the damage was done to the shaft where it rides in the pilot.
I have personally seen where the soft bronze bushing has chewed up the tip of the input shaft. I know you might think it is not possible, but I have seen it first hand.

If you are seeing roller bearings come apart at less than 100,000 miles, my guess would be you have other issues that may have caused the bearing to fail. Meaning the bearing was not your problem but simply a symptom of the real issue.

This is really one of those personal choice type things, kind of like hair-spray, or hair-gel. You are either one or the other.. I think properly installed EITHER one will suit your needs and you should not experience any type of failure.

Out of the ten or so clutch jobs you do a month, how many are GM muscle cars built between 1963 and 1974??? If you did one a month it would be a lot.

Out of the ten or so clutch jobs you do a month, how many are GM muscle cars built between 1963 and 1974??? If you did one a month it would be a lot.

Are 63-74 GM muscle car trannies substantially different from later models in this regard? Not being argumentative...I don't know the answer, and I'm curious.

One reason for not using the roller bearings on many of the old Chevys is that they just don't fit. There is too much variation in the size of the hole where the bushing or bearing fits in the end of the crank.

How many posts have appeared here in the past months where people had to reduce the size of the outside diameter of the pilot bushings to make them fit? Or they wrecked the bushing by pounding it into a hole that was too small? One can quite easily take a little off of the outside diameter of a bronze pilot bushing, but that would be much more difficult with a steel bearing.

I learned this the hard way.

David

Are 63-74 GM muscle car trannies substantially different from later models in this regard? Not being argumentative...I don't know the answer, and I'm curious.
I attribute the failure of the roller bearing in my '78 Camaro to having the bellhousing "out". The stock bellhousing isn't known to be real accurate and I figure the misalignment must have torn that bearing apart.

I think I can settle this, I'll check with the current gear maker and see what the Rockwell of the current gear reads, then ask if the know the number on one of the older stock pieces.

I think I can settle this, I'll check with the current gear maker and see what the Rockwell of the current gear reads, then ask if the know the number on one of the older stock pieces.
Rockwell on the new gears is 61 to 63, should be hard enough.

Maybe plastic is a better choice. There are several that could easily hold up to the wear and heat, hmmmm maybe there is a product here???