FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc... - Page 113 - Chevelle Tech
EFI Caution: Beyond here be monsters...

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post #1681 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 11th, 17, 6:22 AM Thread Starter
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

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Originally Posted by Red'vert347 View Post
Well, I think I have one problems solved. You guys were right on about the rotor. I changed back to my non-adjustable rotor and I was able to do about a 20 mile trip to run an errand and so far no dying.


I know that is a lot of things to change at once if I see a difference I will dial them back one by one.
I'd definitely try, in the future, to only change 1 thing at a time. It's a PITA and takes a while longer, but makes it so much easier to determine if you made a mistake.

I'm glad, and amazed, that your car acted the same way as mine, as far as this whole rotor phasing stuff...

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Originally Posted by metalhead View Post
That's bizarre... Guess I won't be in a hurry to buy an adjustable rotor! Keep us updated.
Yeah, that's crazy isn't it?

1971 Chevelle SS "439" 2.1 tons of fun...
11.31@117 w/4.10's, 4200+ stall, QFT SS-830 carb
11.72@115 w/3.90's, 3300 stall, and Fitech GoEFI4
11.51@116 w/3.90's, 3300 stall, and Holley Sniper EFI
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post #1682 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 11th, 17, 11:27 AM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

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Originally Posted by Red'vert347 View Post
Well, I think I have one problems solved. You guys were right on about the rotor. I changed back to my non-adjustable rotor and I was able to do about a 20 mile trip to run an errand and so far no dying.

I also broke out the timing light, loosened the distr and re-synched it to the handheld at 2000RPM so that I am sure that it is spot on.

Thanks for helping me solve that one.

I also changed the idle AFR target to 13.4 from 13.5, and changed the dTPS Accel gain up one step and the decel Open IAC to -40.

I know that is a lot of things to change at once if I see a difference I will dial them back one by one.
Yeah that's a lot of changes. The rotor swap might have fixed the hesitation as well as the stall.

If it still hesitates, I would up the dTPS Acc Gain another step. You can also increase DFCO Return Fuel. I believe FiTech suggests correcting hesitation with DFCO Return Fuel. I took a different path, so you might want to keep that in mind. My intake is steep and tall. I just figured it was getting too dry on deceleration, and went after it with the dTPS Acc Gain function.

Once you get rid of the hesitation, you should be able to lean out the idle AFR again. I didn't realize you were in the 13's. Then again if it aint broke don't fix it. I don't follow that rule, but it's fun to quote.

By the way, all the changes I made last time made my motor very happy in the freezing weather. It feels as quick as it did with the carburetor. Second gear chirp is back with moderate throttle. I wonder if it would get better or worse with timing controlled by the ECU.

'65 Chev El Camino
350/350+, 700R4
FiTech GoEFI 4 600HP Fuel Injection
Dropped 2.5 - Wannabe Pro Cruzer
'68 P-11 Norton
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post #1683 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 11th, 17, 2:26 PM
 
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

I drove it to work today and no stalling. So far that seems to be fixed.

However, the hesitation is still there.

I will cont. to tinker with fuel settings but lets talk about timing control.

With a normal distrib, unless one gets into re-curving the distrib, the initial timing and total timing are related in that changing the total timing will move the initial timing.

With FiTech control, I have have the option of setting the base timing independent of the timing at 3000RPM. My engine builder wanted me to have no more that 34 degrees total so that is what I have it set at and frankly, when I had it dyno'd with the carb it didn't respond to timing beyond that.

I really have no clue as to what optimal base timing should be. Also, there is the added option of idle timing and timing at 1100.

I have the base set arbitrarily at 14, idle at 14.5 and 1100 at 15. I have not real reason for these numbers otherwise.

I notice that when idling, the timing jumps around and this is of course due to the FiTech timing control.

Question: If the RPMs are close to 1100 and the foot is off the throttle, could there be some problem with the transition from the idle timing to the 1100 timing when resuming acceleration? How do I determine optimal timing settings?
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post #1684 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 11:23 AM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

The FiTech 'base' setting does not play into total timing. The timing number displayed on the handheld should always be the actual timing on the engine, you don't add that base number to it. If the display says 10 the engine should be 10, if it says 50 the engine is at 50, forget about that base setting number.

The idle setting is the lowest the timing will ever go and I am told can not be set lower than the base setting. IF the base setting ended up at 20, you can't set idle at 15. I have not experienced that myself but someone else mentioned that 'feature' here. Must have to do with the way they wrote their software and do there timing references. There is no conceptual reason that has to be like that and there are other systems out there that don't have that limit.

If your readings with a timing light match the displayed timing on the handheld forget about that base number. The display on the handheld is the number that varies, you can find it in the long list or bring it up in the large gauge feature. If it matches you are good. If not that is how you get it to match. If you do have to change it you need to check your rotor phasing because changing that number will change the phasing.

So assuming that matches and you are phased you can move on. I think idle defaults in the teens somewhere? Which should be fine for most motors. If you and your builder thing 35 was all it needed set your max and wot to 35 and pick something in between the idle and max for that mid setting. You also want to think about the break points. From memory they default to 3 and 6 k? If you have a higher revving engine those may be fine but if you have a high torque low rpm motor you will want to drop those so you actually get into the curve in normal driving. If your full timing doesn't come in till 6k and you have an OD trans and cruise at 2k its not going to be a great performer. A street build will usually have full timing or very close to it at its cruise speed. If you are at 30 at cruise you are probably close but if you are at say 25 you need to look at your settings and overall setup. If it was working with a carb and conventional distributor then the overall setup must be fine its just going to be settings. If you didn't have it running before you may have a mismatch in your gearing vs power vs weight.

What I did on mine was took readings before I pulled the original distributor. I used a hand vac pump to pull and hold full vac and revved the engine high enough to see where and how much the mechanical was adding so I knew what the total was and roughly what the curve was. I then used those notes to get me a starting point on the FiTech. At first I didn't change the break points so I was not able to get to the same max timing, I have high torque low r engine. I wanted say 40 for a total but it would only get to 32. I first tried setting the max to 50 and that helped a bit but I still didn't get to my 40 and then was worried if I ever did get the R's up it would be way too advanced. That is when I figured out changing the break points which really let things fall into place. I had some electrical issues I didn't get worked out till near the end of the driving season so I didn't get a chance to really play with the curves but I plan to tinker with them next summer. I have a low compression engine so I should be able to run 87 gas. Historically I have never been able to get decent performance without detonation so I have had to run better gas. That was a major reason to go to EFI, I should be able to tweak the curve so I get performance on regular gas. With the mechanical I was never able to get the curves just right for all conditions. I spent a whole summer trying, wrecked lots of weights and other parts trying to get different curves.

I'm going from memory at the moment so I may be a little off on some of the numbers. I also tend to forget details about the setup I am talking about, been in too many threads or crazy long ones like this so if yours is a track build some of my numbers don't work, my experience is on the mild street builds which I thought was what you had but am too lazy to try and sort back through this thread to see which build was yours.

Sorry no Chevelle, 73 Cadillac Eldorado - Fairly stock low comp 500cid.
FiTech Go4 600 - Timing control via gutted 7 pin large cap HEI - Fuel RobbMc Powersurge with returns.
Previous system was Megasquirt w/Holley TBI so I am not new to DIY EFI
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post #1685 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 11:47 AM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

Eldo,

"If your readings with a timing light match the displayed timing on the handheld forget about that base number. The display on the handheld is the number that varies, you can find it in the long list or bring it up in the large gauge feature. If it matches you are good. If not that is how you get it to match. If you do have to change it you need to check your rotor phasing because changing that number will change the phasing."

Rotor phasing does not change when you move the dist as adjusting timing.

It is the relationship when the coil is controlled (either points, reluctor and pick up) to where the rotor is in relation to the cap terminals.

To prove this use your cap with the hole in it, move the dist and the balancer marks will move, but the rotor relationship to the tower terminal will not move. As long as you don't rev the engine,.

Depending on the the dist it can be changed by moving the rotor as in the adjustable one, moving the reluctor on the dist shaft or moving the breaker plate

Larry
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post #1686 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 12:32 PM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red'vert347 View Post

Question: If the RPMs are close to 1100 and the foot is off the throttle, could there be some problem with the transition from the idle timing to the 1100 timing when resuming acceleration? How do I determine optimal timing settings?
FiTech timing control interpolates. Theoretically it should be a smooth transition. Read the basic info on this page if you haven't already. Not sure about optimal timing settings other than experimentation and or put the car on a dyno and open your wallet while somebody else performs the experimentation.

Timing aside, how bad is this hesitation issue?

If really minor and not a lean spot, it could be your Loop Rate Up, Loop Rate Down, Decel Open IAC, Decel RPM Decay, and Decel IAC Decay aren't playing well together. Especially if you have been changing those values. Or your ECU learned some bad things while your ignition was not working right with the adjustable rotor.

If it is a lean spot, like I had. I had to bump the dTPS Acc Gain 5 points from where it was initially to get any positive results. I also bumped downward (richer) the 1100 RPM AFR target .5. Try it. If it gets worse or makes no difference in your case, you can forget about the fuel being too lean at the off/on throttle transition, set the numbers back, and concentrate on other stuff.

Maybe all this over thinking on the fuel settings isn't necessary, and a simple Reset/Relearn All is in order now that you got rid of the stalling issue.

'65 Chev El Camino
350/350+, 700R4
FiTech GoEFI 4 600HP Fuel Injection
Dropped 2.5 - Wannabe Pro Cruzer
'68 P-11 Norton

Last edited by Schwany; Jan 12th, 17 at 3:19 PM.
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post #1687 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 2:43 PM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

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Originally Posted by Grabberblu View Post
Rotor phasing does not change when you move the dist as adjusting timing.

Depending on the the dist it can be changed by moving the rotor as in the adjustable one, moving the reluctor on the dist shaft or moving the breaker plate
Correct. Like you said if everything was correct and you rotate the distributor the timing mark will move as expected and the phasing will not change. Possible problem you have now introduced is say the idle was 20 and you advanced the distributor 10 degrees. Actual timing is now 30 but the system thinks and says its still at 20. Is that a problem? Maybe, maybe not. Could it be confusing at a later date when you go to make changes and forget about that extra 10? Probably. Can you get the actual timing back to 20 at that point? I don't think so because the 'base' is 18 you can only set the idle down to 18 so the best you can do is 28.

The way to fix that problem assuming that you can't move the distributor back to its original position for some reason would be to go in and adjust the base timing setting by 10 which will then put the actual timing and where the computer thinks it is back in sync. When you make that change you will be changing the phasing by 10. If you have an adjustable rotor or pickup, no problem, adjust it. The settings I mention above may or may not be possible because of the apparent feature in the software where you can't have less idle than base. This means if your base was 18 and idle was 20 and you moved the distributor by 10 you would have to go to 28 on the base which I assume means the idle has to go to 28 which is likely too much advance for idle. This may be something that can happen with some combinations of distributors and controls.

My case I have a factory HEI that started out with computer a computer control module in it so I did not have to deal with 'locking' it. I have a fixed relationship between the pickup and the rotor which appears to be zero meaning the pickup and terminals are in line. I just ripped out the module and put in a wire to connect to the FiTech.. I started out just eyeballing everything like they describe in the manual and I must have done a good job because it started. I then got my drilled cap and timing light out and started playing with the base setting and rotating the dizzy. One effects the other so since I did not have any way to adjust the coil or rotor I had to go back and fourth. I would rotate the dizzy to improve the phasing but that would trow off the timing so correct that with the base setting which then effects the phasing again. Took maybe 10 minutes to get it dialed in. I went back and tweaked it again later based on where I was seeing the wear on the terminals. It only took a tank of gas to be able to see where it was running on the terminals.

I don't know if having the pickup and terminals aligned is some sort of a standard or not. It would make some sense that it was a standard but no one seems to know for sure. One issue is most of the pickups only have 8 points which comes out to what 90 degrees of crank rotation? So we are not talking about a fine amount of detail when compared to a more modern crank trigger where they are dealing with something closer to 10 degrees of resolution per pulse.

On all this timing stuff I'm not saying I'm right and anyone else is wrong. I think I understand it and am trying to help others get it. Discussions like this I think help all of us understand it better. The more ways its explained the easier it may be for people to understand it and get their cars running right.

Sorry no Chevelle, 73 Cadillac Eldorado - Fairly stock low comp 500cid.
FiTech Go4 600 - Timing control via gutted 7 pin large cap HEI - Fuel RobbMc Powersurge with returns.
Previous system was Megasquirt w/Holley TBI so I am not new to DIY EFI
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post #1688 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 3:36 PM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

I don't understand how rotating the dist changed phasing. That is only changed by the relationship of the rotor to the reluctor-pick up when the coil fires.
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post #1689 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 3:47 PM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

The base timing, is a good feature, that what it cranks with to start.

For example you would like to run 20* at idle but cranking it kicks back and put a load on the starter.

So you set base at a setting like 16* that it starts fine but idles at 20*

Larry
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post #1690 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 4:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

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Originally Posted by Grabberblu View Post
I don't understand how rotating the dist changed phasing. That is only changed by the relationship of the rotor to the reluctor-pick up when the coil fires.
That's exactly how mine works as well. My rotor phase is unchanged unless I use an adjustable rotor and physically move it separately from the distributor housing and/or distributor shaft.

1971 Chevelle SS "439" 2.1 tons of fun...
11.31@117 w/4.10's, 4200+ stall, QFT SS-830 carb
11.72@115 w/3.90's, 3300 stall, and Fitech GoEFI4
11.51@116 w/3.90's, 3300 stall, and Holley Sniper EFI
rel3rd is online now  
post #1691 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 5:01 PM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

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Originally Posted by Grabberblu View Post
I don't understand how rotating the dist changed phasing. That is only changed by the relationship of the rotor to the reluctor-pick up when the coil fires.
Assuming nothing is adjustable the reluctor or or cam if you are thinking in terms of points is fixed to the rotor and the cap and pickup coil are fixed so turning the distributor body (pickup and cap) doesn't change the relationships between all the parts. As far as the distributor is concerned its no different than the engine running and turning the shaft.

What does happen when you rotate the body is you are changing the relationship between the trigger point and the cranks position. Unless you remove the distributor the relationship between the crank, rotor, and reluctor isn't going to change so when you move the pickup coil you are changing the trigger points relationship to the crank. This changes the timing but in this case the timing is not being handled inside the distributor. If it was no problem it would all move together. Since our timing is done in the computer the computer needs to know about this change so in the case if FiTech we have to adjust the base setting to correct for this offset we introduced. So basically the computer now delays the spark for say 10 degrees to get it back to matching the timing mark. We are now 10 degrees further away from the terminal in the cap than we were before the change.

Like I said in theory you could mechanically change the timing and not tell the computer and you could get lucky and it could work for you but chances are in the long run it will cause you problems. The system is designed to have the displayed timing match the actual timing.

The cranking timing is an interesting thought and maybe a design flaw / feature in their system. If that is all true then its a limitation in the system because they then don't really give you a way to get things synced if you don't have the means to make those phasing adjustments mechanically. Other systems I have dealt with or read about have a means to adjust that independent of the cranking and idle settings so you can accommodate different hardware and there is no need for mechanical adjustments which very few distributors have. Makes me wonder how not having a specific distributor that has to go with a specific system could work. Even Holley that owns everything doesn't seem to have parts that work well together. The home brew people like Megasquirt had this all figured out years ago, wonder why people that are supposedly smarter than the average bear like Holley and FiTech can't seem to figure out how to make it easy? Lots of us have been in the situation like Bob's adventures where we just want it to work and are willing to pay just about any price for the official plug and play no hassle solution which may not even exist.

Sorry no Chevelle, 73 Cadillac Eldorado - Fairly stock low comp 500cid.
FiTech Go4 600 - Timing control via gutted 7 pin large cap HEI - Fuel RobbMc Powersurge with returns.
Previous system was Megasquirt w/Holley TBI so I am not new to DIY EFI
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post #1692 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 5:11 PM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

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Originally Posted by rel3rd View Post
That's exactly how mine works as well. My rotor phase is unchanged unless I use an adjustable rotor and physically move it separately from the distributor housing and/or distributor shaft.
When you turn the distributor the actual timing will change meaning where the computer thinks the timing is is no longer correct assuming it was correct before you moved the distributor. How do you then make the computer and actual timing match? If the answer is turn the distributor back you are fine because if it was all correct before it will be again. If the answer is they don't match then its true your phasing should still be fine. If to get it right again you have to change some setting in the computer that is when your phasing will change because the only way to get things to match will be to electronically advance or delay the spark from the pickup reference which means if you were phased correctly before you won't be now.

Sorry no Chevelle, 73 Cadillac Eldorado - Fairly stock low comp 500cid.
FiTech Go4 600 - Timing control via gutted 7 pin large cap HEI - Fuel RobbMc Powersurge with returns.
Previous system was Megasquirt w/Holley TBI so I am not new to DIY EFI
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post #1693 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 5:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

Mine works opposite, from what I think you're saying.

All my timing matches between balancer marks and Holley handheld...I was referring to the rotor phase...no matter where my timing is set, the rotor phase is unchanged, unless I use the adjustable rotor to physically change its relation to the distributor shaft/distributor cap. (Which makes my car run like crap BTW )

P.S. After a month wait, I gave up on the super dooper Holley Dual sync distributor. If the MSD doesn't continue working, I'll just put it back to mechanical and call it a loss...lol.

1971 Chevelle SS "439" 2.1 tons of fun...
11.31@117 w/4.10's, 4200+ stall, QFT SS-830 carb
11.72@115 w/3.90's, 3300 stall, and Fitech GoEFI4
11.51@116 w/3.90's, 3300 stall, and Holley Sniper EFI
rel3rd is online now  
post #1694 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 5:28 PM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

I'm confused, it's simple, get your rotor phased and then sync your timing at 2000 rpm that the light on the balancer and dashboard display match. Now put your timing light away and adjust the timing on the hand held to what you want.

Larry
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post #1695 of 1860 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 17, 5:45 PM
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Re: FITECH EFI TUNING tips, info sharing, ideas, settings, etc...

Yes if your timing runs between 10 and 30 and your rotor is centered on the terminal at say 20 you are set. Worst case you are +/- 10 which seems to be well within the normal operating range of most distributors. Checking the centering you are doing with engine running and a timing light, not the eyeball aligning marker marks and tape method that is sometimes described or you are looking at the trail that will be visible on the terminals after a few miles. Bigger flat terminals like an HEI are easier to see it on than the small round ones but you can still see it. The round ones tend to leave a trail on the plastic so you can usually see which way its off if its off.

Now lest say you got the car running decent and want to play with it. Lets say you decide you want to max out at 40 instead of 30. You go into your handheld and change your 6K point from 30 to 40. With no other changes when you hit 6K you will now be firing 20 degrees from the center of the terminal which seems to be pushing it. With some miles and humidity and say a CD box that is getting pretty far away. This is where you would want to change something. If you have the adjustable rotor you can make the change there. If you don't then how do you do it? FiTech you can change the 'base' setting but that also changes the timing so you then have to rotate the distributor slightly to compensate and keep everything in sync. In the FiTech case this will apparently effect your starting timing which could be good or bad.

Sorry no Chevelle, 73 Cadillac Eldorado - Fairly stock low comp 500cid.
FiTech Go4 600 - Timing control via gutted 7 pin large cap HEI - Fuel RobbMc Powersurge with returns.
Previous system was Megasquirt w/Holley TBI so I am not new to DIY EFI
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